If there was no IRA....

jm08 · 09-07-2020 1:35pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don’t see anyone rewriting history? Do you? If so point to it?

History has already been rewritten. FFS, you already tried to claim that everyone went home after the civil war and everything was honky dory!

I told you to look up the Altnaveigh Massacre and you didn't bother. Here is an account of what happened to one particular family. I don't see a hell of a lot of difference in what happened here and what happened 40 years later in Northern Ireland.

When one woman, Elizabeth Crozier, said to the man who had just murdered her elderly husband, "I didn't expect that of you, Willie," she was shot in front of her young family. Her last words were to them were, "Keep together and look after the little child." To ensure the surviving young Croziers understood the message, Aiken's men then destroyed their home with a bomb, before moving to other Protestants nearby. John Heslip and his son Robert were taken out and shot dead. The Gray household was set on fire, and the father of the family, John, murdered. Mrs Lockhart protested when her husband and son were being taken from her. Her son turned to speak to her and he too was shot, dying at his mother's feet.

This is well worth a read.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-1.251219

What is very interesting about this is that this massacre was not recorded in the State records. It makes you wonder how many more took place that were never recorded.

Files detail cover-up of 1922 IRA murder of six Protestants

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44083967

TheCitizen · 09-07-2020 1:39pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Are you saying the PIRA didn’t rape women or their own daughters? What context would you use to explain that?

I have no idea. It may have happened, that sort of thing happened or happens in all sorts of organisations of all kinds. You appear to be obsessed with it, but just with it happening with this particular organisation as per usual.

jm08 · 09-07-2020 1:44pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You do understand the difference between a battle and casualties in the battle and walking into a chip show with the full knowledge the original target was not in the shop and you are just going to blow up kids etc?

Thats not what happened though.

Or planting a bomb in the middle of Omagh with no target at all just random people?

They did have a target though.

You do understand the difference in the two?[/QUOTE]

No different to what happened to those sectarian murders committed by Frank Aiken and his squad that I have supplied links to.

Just for the record, I do not support and never have supported the PIRA (or any version of the IRA). Murder is murder as far as I'm concerned. What I'm getting at here is the hypocrisy of Fianna Fail & Fine Gael when they have sanitised their own terrorist past.

jm08 · 09-07-2020 1:46pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Are you saying the PIRA didn’t rape women or their own daughters? What context would you use to explain that?

On the law of averages, I'm sure they probably did. Rape and abuse is quite common in all sections of Irish society.

mynamejeff · 09-07-2020 1:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

On the law of averages, I'm sure they probably did. Rape and abuse is quite common in all sections of Irish society.

and used as a tool of war all over the world ,

you are defending rapist scum because they once took an oath joining he ira

Shefwedfan · 09-07-2020 1:58pm

jm08 wrote: »

They did have a target though.

What was the target in Omagh?

Are you trying to say the target was the court house ???

Shefwedfan · 09-07-2020 2:01pm

jm08 wrote: »

On the law of averages, I'm sure they probably did. Rape and abuse is quite common in all sections of Irish society.

I really don’t know what to make of this statement

jm08 · 09-07-2020 2:20pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What was the target in Omagh?

Are you trying to say the target was the court house ???

Opps - I was thinking of the Enniskillen bombing, probably because the Omagh bombing was planted by dissident republicans who oppose the GFA.

The only blame Sinn Fein can take for that is that they didn't persuade those dissident republicans to support the GFA.

Renno123 · 09-07-2020 2:23pm

No IRA and we would still be living in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

jm08 · 09-07-2020 2:23pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

and used as a tool of war all over the world ,
you are defending rapist scum because they once took an oath joining he ira

No, I'm not. I'm making the point that people in glasshouses need to be careful about throwing stones. Child abuse was institutionalised by the Irish State by absolutely abandoning their responsibilities to vulnerable children to church organisations.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 2:29pm

jm08 wrote: »

Every version of the IRA have blood on their hands. Just with time, each version becomes respectable eventually and that is where the Provos are heading. Take Michael Collins for instance, he has a lot of blood on his hands, both British and Irish. The Free State executed 81 republicans during the Civil War. Michael Martin is now sitting under Michael Collins' picture in his new office.

The Provo's heading towards respectability? ROFL. If anything it will go the opposite way.

Kangaroo courts, summary extrajudicial executions, harbouring child molesters, rapes and sexual assaults by 'good' republicans going unpunished and that is not even talking about their campaign of terror and murder.

No, in years and decades to come, when Scotland gets its independence especially, we on this island will realise it could have all been so different if some nutcases weren't so trigger happy.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 2:35pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

After they got England out did they continue to run illegal activities and kept killing people? Like the PIRA?

.

Did Dev and Co. run an illegal cross border smuggling operation?
Did they hire out their expertise and services to goons and criminal cartels?
Did they travel to South America to teach others on the art of terrorism and murder?
And once there was peace, did they go off and rob a bank for millions as 'retirement' money for the 'good' republicans?

No, no he did not. And I have little time for Dev and that crew, but to compare them to the modern-day Provos is a sin in of itself.

topmanamillion · 09-07-2020 2:38pm

chicken foot wrote: »

Had they of just lay down and took it, you have no idea where the current border would lie today..who's to say they wouldnt have pushed down further into the 26?

This is a very interesting point and something I haven't considered before.

If you look at Israel and how they encroached into Palestine over the last few decades or the Georgian boarder where the Russians are moving a barbed wire fence at night so people are going to sleep in Georgia and waking up in Russia, could the same have happened here?
Would people in boarder areas here have faced the same issue?
After independence it simply wasn't an option because the British/Unionists knew well they'd have faced a strong guerilla force still capable of mobilising regiments in every townland in the south.

Odhinn · 09-07-2020 2:39pm

markodaly wrote: »

.........................
No, in years and decades to come, when Scotland gets its independence especially, we on this island will realise it could have all been so different if some nutcases weren't so trigger happy.

Yep, thats us - ungrateful bastards who didn't appreciate the Brits and their empire.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 2:40pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep, thats us - ungrateful bastards who didn't appreciate the Brits and their empire.

As you well know, there is a path to independence and freedom that doesn't have to involve wanton murder and violence.

You know it, I know it, so stop pretending to be naive.

Odhinn · 09-07-2020 2:43pm

markodaly wrote: »

As you well know, there is a path to independence and freedom that doesn't have to involve wanton murder and violence..

Do tell. I'm sure all the subjugated countries who took up arms against British colonialism are dying to hear this.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 2:45pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Do tell. I'm sure all the subjugated countries who took up arms against British colonialism are dying to hear this.

Ask this guy.

Odhinn · 09-07-2020 2:48pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ask this guy.

.......led a peaceful protest movement against a background of unrest and violence, the combination of which (along with distance) made British rule impossible.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 2:50pm

Odhinn wrote: »

.......led a peaceful protest movement

Yeap, he sure did.

TheCitizen · 09-07-2020 2:56pm

markodaly wrote: »

The Provo's heading towards respectability? ROFL. If anything it will go the opposite way.

Kangaroo courts, summary extrajudicial executions, harbouring child molesters, rapes and sexual assaults by 'good' republicans going unpunished and that is not even talking about their campaign of terror and murder.

No, in years and decades to come, when Scotland gets its independence especially, we on this island will realise it could have all been so different if some nutcases weren't so trigger happy.

More FFG propaganda. It has really spooked you that last election result hasn’t it?

TheCitizen · 09-07-2020 2:58pm

markodaly wrote: »

Yeap, he sure did.

Cherry picking again Mark I see, even cherry picking bits of people’s posts to suit your anti SF agenda

jm08 · 09-07-2020 3:08pm

markodaly wrote: »

The Provo's heading towards respectability? ROFL. If anything it will go the opposite way.

Kangaroo courts, summary extrajudicial executions, harbouring child molesters, rapes and sexual assaults by 'good' republicans going unpunished and that is not even talking about their campaign of terror and murder.

Wait until SF gets into Government and has access to all those state secrets that have been put away by FFG over the years. Why do you think FFG are so against SF being in Government?

No, in years and decades to come, when Scotland gets its independence especially, we on this island will realise it could have all been so different if some nutcases weren't so trigger happy.

First of all Scotland was not coerced into a union with England. Secondly, and most importantly, Scotland seeking independence would be the equivalent of Irish unionism/protestants seeking independence from the UK and the catholic/nationalists like Labour in Scotland more than likely supporting remaining in the Union because catholics would have been second class citizens (as what has happened in NI - like lack of Pariety of Esteem and all that stuff).

jm08 · 09-07-2020 3:17pm

markodaly wrote: »

Did Dev and Co. run an illegal cross border smuggling operation?
Did they hire out their expertise and services to goons and criminal cartels?
Did they travel to South America to teach others on the art of terrorism and murder?
And once there was peace, did they go off and rob a bank for millions as 'retirement' money for the 'good' republicans?

No, no he did not. And I have little time for Dev and that crew, but to compare them to the modern-day Provos is a sin in of itself.

Dev was up and about stirring up **** everywhere. He was a great friend of Nehru's in India, presumably giving good advice on how to get rid of your imperial bosses. He spent a load of time in the US raising money for the IRA as well. 1000s turned up to listen to him. Did you know that De Valera was on a visit to India and had lunch with Nehru and Mountbatten on Mountbattan's last day as Governor of India? So, I'd say Dev & Collins caused plenty of trouble for the British Empire. They broke the mould which lead to all those other countries gaining independence.

James Brown · 09-07-2020 3:18pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nobody said they didn’t

The problem I have is one, the PIRA, also has raped women and children on their hands as well???

Plus all the rest. Not much freedom fighting going on when raping your own daughter while getting protected by the PIRA and it’s political party.

I don't recall that being on any list of demands. I assume you have no time for the Catholic Church or FF/FG who covered for them, or the FF member who covered for his cousin and the current FF Ceann Comhairle who wrote a recommendation letter for another? Or maybe for those organisations it's different because IRA something...

James Brown · 09-07-2020 3:20pm

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

Guys, I have obviously offended some people. I honestly wanted to educate myself on the troubles. Its unfathomable to me that someone could create such violence and i guess I wanted to know their mindset to understand. Maybe the IRA should be treated like hero's, again I wanted a bit of insight to their life as I know i am so lucky to live in my bubble.

I received a PM last night which wasn't nice. I dont think I deserved it. I am away today and may not return to this thread as I do not want to wake up in the morning to a PM attacking me.

Genuinely sorry if I offended anyone that was never my intention.

Pretending you are looking for insight instead of honestly posting a 'RA bashing thread is my only issue.

jm08 · 09-07-2020 3:23pm

topmanamillion wrote: »

This is a very interesting point and something I haven't considered before.

If you look at Israel and how they encroached into Palestine over the last few decades or the Georgian boarder where the Russians are moving a barbed wire fence at night so people are going to sleep in Georgia and waking up in Russia, could the same have happened here?
Would people in boarder areas here have faced the same issue?
After independence it simply wasn't an option because the British/Unionists knew well they'd have faced a strong guerilla force still capable of mobilising regiments in every townland in the south.

From what I recall, Thatcher wanted the British Army to be able to cross the Border and chase the IRA in the ROI. She of course offered that the Irish security forces could have reciprocal rights to enter Northern Ireland. The Irish Government were having none of it because they said they had no need to send security forces into Northern Ireland (and given an inch, they would take half a mile).

markodaly · 09-07-2020 3:51pm

jm08 wrote: »

Wait until SF gets into Government and has access to all those state secrets that have been put away by FFG over the years. Why do you think FFG are so against SF being in Government?

The 30 years rule notwithstanding? However, a very Trumpian view of it right there. SF wants to go into government to settle old scores.... Very grown-up alright.
"Drain the swamp!"

First of all Scotland was not coerced into a union with England.

Hmmm, many a Scotsman will tell you otherwise. They have a long, even longer history of battling the English then we do.

But, I do like this, "Ireland was different" talk, as if it justified murder.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 3:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

Dev was up and about stirring up **** everywhere. He was a great friend of Nehru's in India, presumably giving good advice on how to get rid of your imperial bosses. He spent a load of time in the US raising money for the IRA as well. 1000s turned up to listen to him. Did you know that De Valera was on a visit to India and had lunch with Nehru and Mountbatten on Mountbattan's last day as Governor of India? So, I'd say Dev & Collins caused plenty of trouble for the British Empire. They broke the mould which lead to all those other countries gaining independence.

Oh, so Dev had lunch with someone is the same as robbing banks and running illegal smuggling operations.

TheCitizen · 09-07-2020 4:00pm

Bowie wrote: »

Pretending you are looking for insight instead of honestly posting a 'RA bashing thread is my only issue.

A sock puppet as well by the looks of it

Odhinn · 09-07-2020 4:00pm

markodaly wrote: »

..................
But, I do like this, "Ireland was different" talk, as if it justified murder.

Attacks on crown forces were justified, as they were in Eden, Cyprus, Kenya, Burma/Myanamar and all the other nations who fought back against the colonialist regime.

afro man · 09-07-2020 4:03pm

markodaly wrote: »

Oh, so Dev had lunch with someone is the same as robbing banks and running illegal smuggling operations.

A Certain Irish political party members got involved in Arms smuggling for the IRA not so long ago and one ended up as leader of Fianna Fail Would this be classed as the same as above

mynamejeff · 09-07-2020 4:07pm

Bowie wrote: »

Pretending you are looking for insight instead of honestly posting a 'RA bashing thread is my only issue.

kicking a nest of shinnerbots and watching them swarm seems like fun too matt

jm08 · 09-07-2020 4:19pm

markodaly wrote: »

The 30 years rule notwithstanding? However, a very Trumpian view of it right there. SF wants to go into government to settle old scores.... Very grown-up alright.
"Drain the swamp!"

30 year rule is only to do with the public, as far I know. No need to worry if there is nothing to be hidden.

Hmmm, many a Scotsman will tell you otherwise. They have a long, even longer history of battling the English then we do.

But, I do like this, "Ireland was different" talk, as if it justified murder.

They have been in a union for more than 300 years which they willingly signed up to in 1706 (because they were bankrupt). Access to the Empire and free trade with England was good for them.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 4:28pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Attacks on crown forces were justified, as they were in Eden, Cyprus, Kenya, Burma/Myanamar and all the other nations who fought back against the colonialist regime.

I guess the murder of Lyra McKee was 'justified' by the New IRA seeing as they were attacking crown forces. Collateral damage and all that.

On Thursday night, following an incursion on the Creggan by heavily armed British crown forces which provoked rioting, the IRA deployed our volunteers to engage. We have instructed our volunteers to take the utmost care in future when engaging the enemy, and put in place measures to help ensure this.

“In the course of attacking the enemy Lyra McKee was tragically killed while standing beside enemy forces.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/22/lyra-mckee-friends-stage-protest-derry-offices-saoradh

Do you stand by the New IRA? Do you support them and think their war against crown forces are justified?

jm08 · 09-07-2020 4:28pm

markodaly wrote: »

Oh, so Dev had lunch with someone is the same as robbing banks and running illegal smuggling operations.

Not just anybody. Mountbattan and Nehru when Britain was leaving India. Both the British and Irish authorities seem to not take too much interest in their activities - otherwise they would be in gaol.

Odhinn · 09-07-2020 4:32pm

markodaly wrote: »

Do you stand by the New IRA? Do you support them and think their war against crown forces are justified?

They're a dissident group with no legitamacy and no, I don't think they are justified.

James Brown · 09-07-2020 4:37pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

kicking a nest of shinnerbots and watching them swarm seems like fun too matt

Revisionist 'history' for the Empire minded FG'er needs to be called out. I don't care what party you believe to be stealing your thoughts.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 4:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

They're a dissident group with no legitamacy and no, I don't think they are justified.

The Provos were also a dissident group as they split from the IRA and had no legitimacy. Yet, you support the murdering carried out by one group, but not the other.

James Brown · 09-07-2020 4:47pm

markodaly wrote: »

I guess the murder of Lyra McKee was 'justified' by the New IRA seeing as they were attacking crown forces. Collateral damage and all that.

Do you stand by the New IRA? Do you support them and think their war against crown forces are justified?

I don't. Thankfully we are working on a peace politically.
I also wouldn't make one of their fellow travelers a Senator to spite another political party while patting myself on the back for that peace.

jm08 · 09-07-2020 4:51pm

markodaly wrote: »

The Provos were also a dissident group as they split from the IRA and had no legitimacy. Yet, you support the murdering carried out by one group, but not the other.

When they took the peace path, they choose to make themselves legitimate. - just like Collins and Dev did back in the day.

markodaly · 09-07-2020 5:15pm

jm08 wrote: »

When they took the peace path, they choose to make themselves legitimate. - just like Collins and Dev did back in the day.

In the 90's was it? Almost 30 years too late if you ask me.

TheCitizen · 09-07-2020 5:28pm

markodaly wrote: »

The Provos were also a dissident group as they split from the IRA and had no legitimacy. Yet, you support the murdering carried out by one group, but not the other.

The PIRA campaign ended more than 20 years ago. The Republican movement played their part in the peace process that brought an end to the conflict. You don’t care about that though, you’re only interested in attacking modern day SF because they are now the main opposition to your party in government.

Junkyard Tom · 09-07-2020 7:14pm

markodaly wrote: »

No, in years and decades to come, when Scotland gets its independence especially, we on this island will realise it could have all been so different if some nutcases weren't so trigger happy.

Your reasoning is wonky. To create a more congruent analogy you'd have Scotland overwhelmingly expressing its desire for Independence with a minority resisting, procuring weapons, and threatening to go on a rampage of murder and ethnic cleansing in their region. The British Government gives these Scots 'unionists' their own little ethno-statelet where they dominate a newly created minority.

You should be better at this by now.

James Brown · 09-07-2020 7:37pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

The PIRA campaign ended more than 20 years ago. The Republican movement played their part in the peace process that brought an end to the conflict. You don’t care about that though, you’re only interested in attacking modern day SF because they are now the main opposition to your party in government.

That's it in a nutshell.

TheCitizen · 09-07-2020 7:45pm

Bowie wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell.

What they used to call Black Propaganda, don't know if you can say that these days? Sounds a bit too sophisticated anyway cos it's very obvious outdated stuff that ain't working with young educated smart people.

A better phrase for it might be Bullshít Propaganda FFG style (as in not very good at it).

The op a prime example; so transparent in this thread.

Feisar · 09-07-2020 8:10pm

jm08 wrote: »

When they took the peace path, they choose to make themselves legitimate. - just like Collins and Dev did back in the day.

On that logic Britain never legitimised themselves. Never forget it was the Brits that had us on our bellies here. This whole country was as bad as any concentration camp at one time or other. Unfortunately rising against tyranny means doing violence.

markodaly · 10-07-2020 1:31am

TheCitizen wrote: »

The PIRA campaign ended more than 20 years ago. The Republican movement played their part in the peace process that brought an end to the conflict. You don’t care about that though, you’re only interested in attacking modern day SF because they are now the main opposition to your party in government.

My party? Is that all you have in a rebuttal? This is not Liverpool vs Man United.

I am against wanton murder and bombings that kill innocent men, women and children, in fact most civilised and humane people would be of the same view.

The Provos came to the table, 25 years after the fact when they knew they could not win as they were riddled with informants and spies. I give no admiration to people like that who joined the peace process when they spent the previous decades killing and murdering for a political goal with no mandate.

markodaly · 10-07-2020 1:33am

Feisar wrote: »

On that logic Britain never legitimised themselves. Never forget it was the Brits that had us on our bellies here. This whole country was as bad as any concentration camp at one time or other. Unfortunately rising against tyranny means doing violence.

Oh Christ, here we go.

Yeap, I heard they had Gas Chambers in the Curragh ala Auschwitz and there are fields in North Cork where camps like Treblinka used to be.
Listen to yourself.

Charles Babbage · 10-07-2020 1:49am

Cromwell killed a greater proportion of the people of Ireland than Hitler did in Poland. It is inappropriate to diminish what the British did here.

Feisar · 10-07-2020 10:24am

markodaly wrote: »

Oh Christ, here we go.

Yeap, I heard they had Gas Chambers in the Curragh ala Auschwitz and there are fields in North Cork where camps like Treblinka used to be.
Listen to yourself.

Here we go? Here we go what? I'm not political nor do I bear ill will to Britain. However as Mr. Babbage stated it is inappropriate to diminish what the British did here. An he should know, he quantifies everything! Sure there were no gas chambers however a million killed during the famine is no small matter. One might content this was not Britain's fault. However the whole system of governance, wealthy landlords being propped up by stripping people to the bone, gutted us of everything, had food being loaded onto ships and exported while we had to doff the cap for a bowl of soup.

If there was no IRA....

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