If there was no IRA....

munsterlegend · 08-07-2020 3:29pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Why "read" it when he can make it up as he goes along.

He’d give lord haw haw a run for his money.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:32pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

Possibly? You think a British pm would have cared a jot about conscripting Irish lads and sending them to die. I sometimes wonder what version of Irish history you read.

Well, Irish people were not conscripted in WWI, unlike mainland Britain.
What makes you think they would have done so in Ireland when there was NO conscription in Northern Ireland in WWII?

I wonder what history books you read when basic facts and opinions you peddle are flat out wrong and untrue.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:34pm

Bowie wrote: »

You're threading water now.

You said Ireland wasn't occupied because we secured Home Rule.

I didn't say that.

Your people might have been happy and comfortable tipping their top hats to the crown but the average Irish person wasn't.

Who are my people?
I can tell you, I come from a very humble background.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 3:36pm

markodaly wrote: »

That is the 'Irish Republican, everything the English did was evil' version of history.

Tell me, did the 'English' give up Australia, Canada and New Zealand because they were threatened with a gun?

Did they give up Hong Kong, like that? 8 Million Hong citizens would love to be back under British rule tomorrow.

The fact is, Scotland was granted a free vote on independence and most likely will have another go within a decade. Ireland was granted Home Rule without any violence.
I know this narrative does not suit violent Irish Republicanism as it destroys their higher moral authority.

Your narrative is false.

Australia Canada NewZealand are still all in the Commonwealth. However the substantive point the English don’t rule those big countries on the other side of the World anymore like they do Scotland and Wales because it’d logistically be impossible in this day and age; don’t be ridiculous.

Honk Kong? Didn’t they do a deal with China for Hong Kong, probably a lot of money involved.

So a lot of money I suppose might work, but we didn’t have a lot of money so we had to point guns at them otherwise they’d still be here or they’d still be telling us what to do from Westminster.

Bad and all as FFG are can you imagine having that arsehole Johnson as your PM? What am I asking you that for LOL.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:38pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

So on one hand you state how liberal Britain was and then when given evidence to the contrary somersault the other way.

Britain was more liberal Ireland.

They had divorce laws in 1937, we got it in 1996
They had abortion laws in 1967, we got it in 2019
They had full legal contraception in 1967, we got it in 1992

Is this something you want to defend?

circadian · 08-07-2020 3:41pm

Maybe we'd see more people being able to tell the difference between there, their and they're.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 3:44pm

markodaly wrote: »

Britain was more liberal Ireland.

They had divorce laws in 1937, we got it in 1996
They had abortion laws in 1967, we got it in 2019
They had full legal contraception in 1967, we got it in 1992

Is this something you want to defend?

Are you trying to argue that we should rejoin the UK Mark LOL

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:46pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Australia Canada NewZealand are still all in the Commonwealth.

And they can leave at any time of their choosing.

Next time you see an Australian or a Kiwi, go up to them and tell them that they are still being occupied by the English. They will probably give you a kicking for questioning their patriotism and nationhood.

Honk Kong? Didn’t they do a deal with China for Hong Kong, probably a lot of money involved.

The fact that you used the word, probably, belies the fact you have zero knowledge of the history of Hong Kong or the British involvement there.

There is a lot more to British History than 'Up da Ra' stuff you get in Ireland.

gossipgirl123 · 08-07-2020 3:46pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

So you start a thread to tell us that? Was there not enough other anti SF threads already where you could have vented your spleen.

In your op you said “if the IRA didn’t exist would we have peace today”. Well seeing as we have peace today and SF played a huge role in the Peace Process I suppose what you’re saying is; if the IRA didn’t or never existed we wouldn’t have peace today. I think that’s what you’re saying even though it mightn’t be what you meant to say.

Fair enough....if the IRA did not exist, would we have peace today.

Junkyard Tom · 08-07-2020 3:47pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

The IRA were a collection of criminals, racketeers, murderers and other assorted scumbags and psychopaths.

50% of the people they murdered were either civilians, members of their own group or Irish security personnel.

Rather than that brave resistors against British oppression they like to portray themselves as, their attacks were generally cowardly and against the softest targets they could find to further the criminal operations they were running. The 'I Ran Away' moniker bestowed on them was well-earned.

In summary, if there was no IRA , the would would have been a far, far better place. They made no positive contribution to anything and actually hampered the civil rights movement.

This is so utterly clueless but then we should expect no less from you.

50% civilians is wrong.

'I Ran Away' was a taunt by the Catholic people aimed at the official IRA for not defending them (from your unionist friends who were shooting and burning them out of their homes) which led to the formation of Provisional IRA.

You really ought to read up on this stuff more, you'd think you'd be tired of being corrected on it by now.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:47pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are you trying to argue that we should rejoin the UK Mark LOL

Not at all, just arguing that Britain post-WWII was more liberal than Ireland. It seems an uncomfortable fact for some.

Odhinn · 08-07-2020 3:50pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are you trying to argue that we should rejoin the UK Mark LOL

Poncing round the houses of parliament in tights for her majesty, so delusional they put themselves out of the EU.....getting dragged into wars to keep their american pals happy.......yeah, we're really missing out.

James Brown · 08-07-2020 3:51pm

markodaly wrote: »

I didn't say that.

You certainly did.

markodaly wrote: »

Nonsense.

Remember the Government of Ireland Bill of 1914 Act (Home Rule)
Achieved without a shot being fired.

Scotland had an independence referendum in 2014, all without anyone dying or anyone murdering anyone else because of their political beliefs.

The 'British Occupation' thing is a what-if revisionist myth used to justify the wrongs of the past. It's like a religion.

So you say we weren't, we were. And we'd be more liberalised if still under british rule and when shown that may not be the case in occupied NI, cite lack of liberalisation as a reason we shouldn't have a united Ireland.
You are all over the place.

Who are my people?
I can tell you, I come from a very humble background.

You seem to miss the Empire days and have a dislike of those fought for our independence.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 3:58pm

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

Fair enough....if the IRA did not exist, would we have peace today.

Isn’t that what you already asked

Muahahaha · 08-07-2020 4:00pm

chicken foot wrote: »

This is a very, very simplistic view based on your personal opinion of what you view as "the IRA". The six counties were chosen strategically. The quality of the land and the Protestant to Catholic ratio - which was higher there and would allow voting in their favour.

Indeed, it was only on that Michael Portillo documentary last week that initially they had only intended 4 counties for Northern Ireland but at the last minute added on Fermangh and Tyrone because they felt a 4 county statelet would not be viable.

markodaly wrote: »

Britain was more liberal Ireland.

They had divorce laws in 1937, we got it in 1996
They had abortion laws in 1967, we got it in 2019
They had full legal contraception in 1967, we got it in 1992

Is this something you want to defend?

And we didnt have divorce, abortion or contraception because Fine Gael and Fianna Fail handed over the keys of the country to the Catholic Church. Thats on Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, not the IRA or the British.

CBear1993 · 08-07-2020 4:03pm

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

I have personally started to enjoy Irish politics, I honestly can't abide Sinn Fein I disagree with the policies and I don't think the sums add up. That aside I have been thinking what would life be like if the IRA never existed would we have peace today.

Terrible, divisive thread. You should be grateful for your freedom.

Your modern day west Brit gobsh*tes celebrating VE Day like Neale Richmond in FG show you all you need to know about what state we’d be in without the existence of an Irish Republican Army.

Like many southerners, I am guessing you don’t have a clue what the troubles in the north were like. Before I’m tarred with a “chip on his shoulder nordie” brush, I didn’t live through the troubles but I was born in them and my parents were constantly harassed while trying to live normal lives. If you were a young man and your brother had just been killed by your fiercest enemy over the water wouldn’t you want retaliation? Some chose politics, some chose to fight back. Why should you portray them in a certain light to fit your modern day narrative?

I understand you are only trying to comprehend what it would have been like without said guerrilla army, but your tone isn’t appropriate. It Infuriates me that “woke” young people can just come up with a thread like this and wonder and wish and try to change the past from their point of view. You can’t change the past, but if you’d rather be a bootlicker then go ahead move across the water, or to certain factions of cork or south Dublin.

You can read all you want about it but the only way you’ll find out the truth is by talking to real people from those times who lived through it. The media is poisoned here and have twisted the truth- I give you RTE and the independent newspaper.

And don’t start with the “there’d be a lot more people walking around today” BS as I saw one poster on this thread. I would argue the case the opposite, without making a stand for OUR people, the Brits would have trampled over the top of us and killed at will more than they did. While many residents of the 26 sit back today and verbally attack republicans and people who stood for something in the past , they should remember that while they sat cosy and watched the news their was a totally different world going on a couple of hundred miles (or less) up the road. This goes with the exception of the border counties as they went through the same.

There are victims of the violence that the IRA orchestrated and carried out which damaged family lives of innocent civilians forever, I acknowledge that. But you can’t say that it was for the greater good.

Today it doesn’t matter what you are, IRA/UVF/Kinahan, they’re all just scumbags and drug dealers.

atticu · 08-07-2020 4:03pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Australia Canada NewZealand are still all in the Commonwealth.

The Commonwealth is a voluntary association of 54 independent and equal countries.

Odhinn · 08-07-2020 4:08pm

atticu wrote: »

The Commonwealth is a voluntary association of 54 independent and equal countries.

...or a victim support group.

maccored · 08-07-2020 4:13pm

hilarious to think some people believe the whole thing was caused by the IRA

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 4:18pm

atticu wrote: »

The Commonwealth is a voluntary association of 54 independent and equal countries.

That was probably the least pertinent thing I said in that comment you quoted, yet you single that sentence out? Grasping at straws.

Shefwedfan · 08-07-2020 4:27pm

The question is far too broad,

You had the original IRA which was to fight and win freedom from UK

Then you had the PIRA which fought for the freedom of Northern Ireland

Then you have the current version which I have no idea what they call themselves who are just a group of scumbags running a criminal organization no better than the Kinahans and all those scumbags

The problem with Sinn Fein is they should have cut ties with the new version of Sinn Fein straight after the Good Friday agreement was put in place but they haven't.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 4:28pm

Bowie wrote: »

So you say we weren't, we were.

I already cleared this up in another post, in terms of what I meant when I used that term. I mean it in regards the revisionism that we would still be occupied if it were not for the IRA.
You ignored that post and referred to an older one. I am not sure what the point of that was but I will not be clearing it up... again for you.

You seem to miss the Empire days and have a dislike of those fought for our independence.

More ad-hominem.

I dislike those who glorify murder when there are alternative avenues.

An Ri rua · 08-07-2020 4:30pm

....
You'd have 2 states in the Miiidle East side by side called Q and N. Which would be weird. Especially if there was an intermediate territory called URA...

Shefwedfan · 08-07-2020 4:31pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Indeed, it was only on that Michael Portillo documentary last week that initially they had only intended 4 counties for Northern Ireland but at the last minute added on Fermangh and Tyrone because they felt a 4 county statelet would not be viable.

To be honest I would say we where glad to get rid of both, not much good coming out of those two counties

markodaly · 08-07-2020 4:31pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

And we didnt have divorce, abortion or contraception because Fine Gael and Fianna Fail handed over the keys of the country to the Catholic Church. Thats on Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, not the IRA or the British.

What about people like Dev, who was the founder of FF and a IRA member?

Odhinn · 08-07-2020 4:34pm

markodaly wrote: »

...................................
More ad-hominem.

I dislike those who glorify murder when there are alternative avenues.

The "alternative avenues" where they were batoned off the streets by the forces of "law and order"?

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 4:36pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The question is far too broad,

You had the original IRA which was to fight and win freedom from UK

Then you had the PIRA which fought for the freedom of Northern Ireland

Then you have the current version which I have no idea what they call themselves who are just a group of scumbags running a criminal organization no better than the Kinahans and all those scumbags

The problem with Sinn Fein is they should have cut ties with the new version of Sinn Fein straight after the Good Friday agreement was put in place but they haven't.

Spoken like a true FFGer. You’re wrong btw in your last clumsy paragraph

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 4:37pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To be honest I would say we where glad to get rid of both, not much good coming out of those two counties

Amazing the tripe that gets lazily thrown around here

Shefwedfan · 08-07-2020 4:38pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Spoken like a true FFGer. You’re wrong btw in your last clumsy paragraph

What was incorrect?

Muahahaha · 08-07-2020 4:41pm

markodaly wrote: »

What about people like Dev, who was the founder of FF and a IRA member?

Its always straight to the whataboutery with you isnt it. The OP is about the IRA of the 60/70s but of course you knew that already.

Your post is saying that had the British been in charge here we would have had abortion, condoms and divorce long before we actually did. Thats besides the point because we could have had it anyway except your party Fine Gael and Fianna Fail gave the keys to the country over the the Catholic Church.

It was FFG who ultimately prevented those liberal goals, it was nobody else except them sniffling up and kissing the Popes ring. For that they have to take responsibility as well as allowing the Church to rape and fiddle with generations of Irish children.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 4:45pm

Odhinn wrote: »

The "alternative avenues" where they were batoned off the streets by the forces of "law and order"?

That alternative does not automatically mean killing toddlers in Warrington or women in Omagh or working-class men at Kingsmill.

John Hume was one of those batoned off the streets, yet still worked tirelessly using peaceful means.

rdwight · 08-07-2020 4:46pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its always straight to the whataboutery with you isnt it. The OP is about the IRA of the 60/70s but of course you knew that already.

Why are you assuming OP was referring to the IRA of the 60/70's. I assumed she was referring to its 100 year history but she later clarfied it:

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

I'm more interested in the IRA of the 90s

Odhinn · 08-07-2020 4:50pm

markodaly wrote: »

That alternative does not automatically mean killing toddlers in Warrington or women in Omagh or working-class men at Kingsmill.

John Hume was one of those batoned off the streets, yet still worked tirelessly using peaceful means.

...and yet it was the physical force lads who got the agreement to most of their demands. Funny that.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 4:50pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its always straight to the whataboutery with you isnt it. The OP is about the IRA of the 60/70s but of course you knew that already.

The OP is actually very very vague and doesn't mention which time period they refer to.

Your post is saying that had the British been in charge here we would have had abortion, condoms and divorce long before we actually did. Thats besides the point because we could have had it anyway except your party Fine Gael and Fianna Fail gave the keys to the country over the the Catholic Church.

You are proving my point for me. FF and FG grew out of the roots of the Civil war, which was sown in violence and bitterness. Dare I say it, if we had a non-violent start to this nation, and the Irish Parliamentary Party still had a say, then they could have formed one side of the divide, with Labour, the oldest political party in Ireland could bring up the left, thus the social and liberal reforms we talk about could have come about a lot earlier.

It was FFG who ultimately prevented those liberal goals, it was nobody else except them sniffling up and kissing the Popes ring. For that they have to take responsibility as well as allowing the Church to rape and fiddle with generations of Irish children.

It was ultimately the Irish people who did, because they voted for FF and FG. We get the politics we deserve.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 4:51pm

Odhinn wrote: »

...and yet it was the physical force lads who got the agreement to most of their demands. Funny that.

Ah, Sunningdale for slow learners? About 25 years too late if you ask me, but that is the lie Republicans tell themselves

conorhal · 08-07-2020 4:57pm

AMKC wrote: »

I have disagree here. I still think we would have got our independence it just would have taken longer. Maybe it would have happened after WW2 instead of before it. I think if we had of been part of thf British Empire when WW2 happened we would have been bombed by the Germans and we would have got to build our cities the way we want but with underground railway too. I think after it Britain would have pulled out like they did in India and in other Country's they occupied because they could not afford it anymore. The troubles in the North would have been different maybe more like the race wars in America in the 60s or not happen at all unless another group were to fight for freedom like the IRA maybe in a less violent way. Maybe less lifes would have been lost or more lifes would be lost.

AHhahahahahaha....

That assumes The Empire would have bothered to rebuild Dublin and it wouldn't look like a depressing s-ithole like Coventry today after getting flattened in the blitz. (And doesn't have an underground either).

The British Empire exerted it's control the same way everywhere it went.
Divide and conquer. How else did a small island manage to control continents?
It would have all ended in a bloody civil war between the divided here as it did everwhere else and left a balkanized disaster in it's wake. Northern Ireland writ large across the whole island.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 4:58pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, Sunningdale for slow learners? About 25 years too late if you ask me, but that is the lie Republicans tell themselves

It was the Loyalists that took down Sunningdale but we already know you’re not good on history

markodaly · 08-07-2020 5:03pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

It was the Loyalists that took down Sunningdale but we already know you’re not good on history

I do know that, but the IRA and SF were dead set against it as well.

Two sides of the same sectarian coin.

nigeldaniel · 08-07-2020 6:13pm

Without the IRA/SF, the country would be a mile better in every way.

Junkyard Tom · 08-07-2020 6:16pm

markodaly wrote: »

I do know that, but the IRA and SF were dead set against it as well. Two sides of the same sectarian coin.

The IRA/SF were politically irrelevant. Sunningdale might have taken the wind out of their sales.

Are you aware of the Ulster Workers' strike that was enforced by the UVF?

James Brown · 08-07-2020 6:17pm

markodaly wrote: »

I already cleared this up in another post, in terms of what I meant when I used that term. I mean it in regards the revisionism that we would still be occupied if it were not for the IRA.
You ignored that post and referred to an older one. I am not sure what the point of that was but I will not be clearing it up... again for you.

More ad-hominem.

I dislike those who glorify murder when there are alternative avenues.

I didn't ignore anything. Don't infer your brand of misrepresentation on me thank you.

So do I. I guess Remembrance day can be seen as glorifying murder by honouring those who fought and died. Like all things, depends on your politics. I am sickened to see WW2 bombers that would have carpet bombed entire cities viewed almost as religious relics.

We don't know where we'd be without people willing to kill or be killed on our behalf. I would suggest that the occupied portion of Ulster might be more akin to Israel and the Nationalists Palestinians, if not for the IRA, Sinn Fein and many others.

CBear1993 · 08-07-2020 6:40pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To be honest I would say we where glad to get rid of both, not much good coming out of those two counties

In what sense no good?

Edgware · 08-07-2020 6:42pm

Kylo Ren wrote: »

We'd all be supporting supporting British sports teams and watching British TV channels and shows and drinking tea while complaining about the weather all day.

and queuing as a favourite hobby

corks finest · 08-07-2020 6:44pm

flazio wrote: »

Depends which version of the IRA you refer to.

No difference, between my grandfather's time up to present, whether you like, acknowledge or disagree

corks finest · 08-07-2020 6:44pm

flazio wrote: »

Depends which version of the IRA you refer to.

No difference, between my grandfather's time up to present, whether you like, acknowledge or disagree

CBear1993 · 08-07-2020 6:50pm

When people in the south of Ireland had no freedom, murder and atrocities took place in the name of that freedom. In the north as they remained oppressed, the same took place and in the south they scream terrorists. Don't think you are placed to judge what you never experienced OP.

Thread obsolete gossipgirl

CrankyHaus · 08-07-2020 6:54pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, Sunningdale for slow learners?

And who brought down Sunningdale?
The majority of Irish Nationalists, though not the Provos, were ready to accept something like the Good Friday Agreement in 1973, or even earlier.
The same certainly cannot be said for the Loyalists who brought it down.
Or the British Establishment that refused to grasp the nettle of angering the Unionists by treating both communities equally.

gossipgirl123 · 08-07-2020 8:08pm

CBear1993 wrote: »

When people in the south of Ireland had no freedom, murder and atrocities took place in the name of that freedom. In the north as they remained oppressed, the same took place and in the south they scream terrorists. Don't think you are placed to judge what you never experienced OP.

Thread obsolete gossipgirl

You are right I never experienced any of the atrocities thank God. I have only recently started to think about the North on the back of the media hype of Bobby Storeys funeral.

I dont like what I read about the man, I found nothing positive about him I dont know why he was so liked and why Sinn Fein didnt distance themselves from him. My reason for not liking Sinn Fein was not based on IRA activity I simply dont agree with their policies or attitudes.

weldoninhio · 08-07-2020 8:21pm

gossipgirl123 wrote: »

You are right I never experienced any of the atrocities thank God. I have only recently started to think about the North on the back of the media hype of Bobby Storeys funeral.

I dont like what I read about the man, I found nothing positive about him I dont know why he was so liked and why Sinn Fein didnt distance themselves from him. My reason for not liking Sinn Fein was not based on IRA activity I simply dont agree with their policies or attitudes.

They probably liked him because he did what needed to be done, when it was needed.

Shefwedfan · 08-07-2020 8:40pm

CBear1993 wrote: »

When people in the south of Ireland had no freedom, murder and atrocities took place in the name of that freedom. In the north as they remained oppressed, the same took place and in the south they scream terrorists. Don't think you are placed to judge what you never experienced OP.

Thread obsolete gossipgirl

So what was the murder in 2007 of Paul Quinn about?

What about the murder of people in South of Ireland? Was that for freedom? What exactly was the killing of Martin Cahill?
How many people along the border got killed for no reason, catholic and other religions?

The raping of women? The abuse of children and then protector those abusers?

Was that all required to get the freedom of the North?

Stick your head in the sand all you want, don’t expect everyone else to as well

If there was no IRA....

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