If there was no IRA....

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:16pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Likely we'd still be under British occupation.

Nonsense.

Remember the Government of Ireland Bill of 1914 Act (Home Rule)
Achieved without a shot being fired.

Scotland had an independence referendum in 2014, all without anyone dying or anyone murdering anyone else because of their political beliefs.

The 'British Occupation' thing is a what-if revisionist myth used to justify the wrongs of the past. It's like a religion.

James Brown · 08-07-2020 2:20pm

markodaly wrote: »

Nonsense.

Remember the Government of Ireland Bill of 1914 Act (Home Rule)
Achieved without a shot being fired.

Scotland had an independence referendum in 2014, all without anyone dying or anyone murdering anyone else because of their political beliefs.

The 'British Occupation' thing is a what-if revisionist myth used to justify the wrongs of the past. It's like a religion.

So how do you define 'occupation'?
Did every man/woman have a vote for our own 100% self governing parliament?
Did we not have the tans/RIC BA etc?
Sounds pretty occupied to me.
What was the 1916 rising about?
What was the civil war over?
How come NI is still occupied and beholden to Westminister?

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 2:20pm

markodaly wrote: »

Nonsense.

Remember the Government of Ireland Bill of 1914 Act (Home Rule)
Achieved without a shot being fired.

Scotland had an independence referendum in 2014, all without anyone dying or anyone murdering anyone else because of their political beliefs.

The 'British Occupation' thing is a what-if revisionist myth used to justify the wrongs of the past. It's like a religion.

LOL. Total west Brit Eoghan Harris/Conor Cruise O’Brien type revisionism here. Absolute gibberish.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:21pm

Bowie wrote: »

So how do you define 'occupation'?
Did every man/woman have a vote?
Did we not have the tans/RIC BA etc?
Sounds pretty occupied to me.
What was the 1916 rising about?

"Whatabout..."

The only argument left in the arsenal of violent republicanism.

SlowMotion321 · 08-07-2020 2:23pm

markodaly wrote: »

"Whatabout..."

The only argument left in the arsenal of violent republicanism.

I thought it was a greeting north of the border "Whatabout ye"

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:23pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

LOL. Total west Brit Eoghan Harris/Conor Cruise O’Brien type revisionism here. Absolute gibberish.

Ad-hominem galore.

Do you actually think that the Republic we know of today in 2020 without the IRA would still be under Britsh occupation?

Its fantasy land stuff.

Sunny Disposition · 08-07-2020 2:25pm

I think the Provos have delayed reunification if anything.
Catholic anger was totally understandable in the North by the 1970s, it was a sick, sectarian society. But bombing and shooting couldn't and didn't reunite Ireland, huge civil disobedience would have been the best way. Expose it as a failed State, don't make it impossible for the Brits to give you what you want.

What happens next is what's most interesting, when there's a Catholic majority reunification can't be too far away, despite what optimistic unionists and fearful southern D4 types might say. Preparing for the economic realiites is huge, but an even bigger issue is how to deal with the Protestant fringe who won't accept democracy, just as their ancestors didn't in the 1920s.

We got freedom in the south due to the IRA, it's uncomfortable for some people but it's the truth. The Brits couldn't be voted out, even working within their political structures for generations had failed, a brilliant guerilla campaign gave us the stepping stone.

I do understand that SF equates IRA men from the WoI and the Troubles. To an extent that's valid, but I still feel the campaign in the north was wrong given the relatively low level of support. At the very least it should be acknowledged that it went on far too long.

rdwight · 08-07-2020 2:26pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

LOL. Total west Brit Eoghan Harris/Conor Cruise O’Brien type revisionism here. Absolute gibberish.

It's this kind of rational, insightful discussion that draws me back to boards.ie so often.

James Brown · 08-07-2020 2:26pm

markodaly wrote: »

"Whatabout..."

The only argument left in the arsenal of violent republicanism.

Whatabout? You're having a laugh. I'm asking you to back up your claim.

markodaly wrote: »

Ad-hominem galore.

Do you actually think that the Republic we know of today in 2020 without the IRA would still be under Britsh occupation?

Its fantasy land stuff.

Now you are trying to divert.
If it wasn't for terrorists like Collins, DeValera, Connolly etc. we'd likely still be completely occupied not just partially. Now I know for the landed gentry it wasn't the same as it was for the average Irish person under British rule.
Lots or parallels to today. I'm alright jack and anyone complaining is a whinger or troublemaker.

munsterlegend · 08-07-2020 2:28pm

The topic is far too broad. Which IRA are we talking about?

My ancestors were in the IRA back in the war of independence and I am grateful for the sacrifices they made. Britain was leading us up the garden path with home rule for far too long never mind the decimated population and cultural war.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 2:31pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ad-hominem galore.

Do you actually think that the Republic we know of today in 2020 without the IRA would still be under Britsh occupation?

Its fantasy land stuff.

Yes, yes it probably would.

You’re either totally blinkered by your anti SF and Republican bias or you really need to read a few history books and educate yourself. One way of the other you’re completely wrong in your analysis such as it is.

The Government of Ireland Act 1914 was the Home Rule Bill. That’s basically what Scotland and Wales have today. Both of them remain in the UK. If we had settled for Home Rule back then we’d probably be like Scotland and Wales, in the UK or at least in the UK commonwealth, and lately out of the EU. We wouldn’t be a Republic either but you’d probably prefer that. Thank the lord people like you didn’t get your way.

munsterlegend · 08-07-2020 2:32pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes, yes it probably would.

You’re either totally blinkered by your anti SF and Republican bias or you really need to read a few history books and educate yourself. One way of the other you’re completely wrong in your analysis such as it is.

The Government of Ireland Act 1914 was the Home Rule Bill. That’s basically what Scotland and Wales have today. Both of them remain in the UK. If we had settled for Home Rule back then we’d probably be like Scotland and Wales, in the UK or at least in the UK commonwealth, and lately out of the EU. We wouldn’t be a Republic either but you’d probably prefer that. Thank the lord people like you didn’t get your way.

Thank you indeed.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 2:34pm

rdwight wrote: »

It's this kind of rational, insightful discussion that draws me back to boards.ie so often.

It is though. Total revisionism from a west Brit perspective from people who don’t value that we have a Republic and for all our own shortcomings that we are so much better off out of the UK that it‘s unquantifiable.

James Brown · 08-07-2020 2:35pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

It is though. Total revisionism from a west Brit perspective from people who don’t value that we have a Republic and for all our own shortcomings that we are so much better off out of the UK that’s it unquantifiable.

Their ilk likely did alright under British occupation. Hence the looking to celebrate the Tans/RIC.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 2:38pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

Thank you indeed.

LOL. Thankful for small mercies mate.

What is this place (forum) like in the name of God, was it always this bad?

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:38pm

Bowie wrote: »

Whatabout? You're having a laugh. I'm asking you to back up your claim.

It is an opinion based on fact.

The Government of Ireland Act of 1914 was a bill that would grant Ireland Home Rule. This is a fact.

Scotland had a referendum on full independence in 2014. This is also a fact.

Both outcomes came about without violence. Another fact.

Now you are trying to divert.
If it wasn't for terrorists like Collins, DeValera, Connolly etc. we'd likely still be completely occupied not just partially. Now I know for the landed gentry it wasn't the same as it was for the average Irish person under British rule.
Lots or parallels to today. I'm alright jack and anyone complaining is a whinger or troublemaker.

Not likely at all given my previous statements above.
If in 1914 Westminister agreed to give Ireland devolved powers, what makes you think that in 2020 we would have more freedom, if not complete independence.
Before you ask, think of Scotland and their drive to independence without any IRA or similar.

Some just can't fathom the idea that without the IRA we could have ended up in the same scenario of being a free independent country regardless, which begs the question of course, was it all worth it, the murdering, death, injuries, bombings and the like...

One can make the argument of the old IRA in the past is given the mandate in 1918 election to do some of the things they did.
However, the Provos had zero mandate to murder and kill.

TheCitizen · 08-07-2020 2:40pm

Bowie wrote: »

Their ilk likely did alright under British occupation. Hence the looking to celebrate the Tans/RIC.

They were met with short shrift and corrected accordingly.

munsterlegend · 08-07-2020 2:43pm

markodaly wrote: »

It is an opinion based on fact.

The Government of Ireland Act of 1914 was a bill that would grant Ireland Home Rule. This is a fact.

Scotland had a referendum on full independence in 2014. This is also a fact.

Both outcomes came about without violence. Another fact.

Not likely at all given my previous statements above.
If in 1914 Westminister agreed to give Ireland devolved powers, what makes you think that in 2020 we would have more freedom, if not complete independence.
Before you ask, think of Scotland and their drive to independence without any IRA or similar.

Some just can't fathom the idea that without the IRA we could have ended up in the same scenario of being a free independent country regardless, which begs the question of course, was it all worth it, the murdering, death, injuries, bombings and the like...

One can make the argument of the old IRA in the past is given the mandate in 1918 election to do some of the things they did.
However, the Provos had zero mandate to murder and kill.

We were going no where with the British and home rule. Thousands Of our men would have been sent to their death in World war 2 never mind the ongoing trouble if we hadn’t achieved independence down south.

James Brown · 08-07-2020 2:45pm

markodaly wrote: »

It is an opinion based on fact.

The Government of Ireland Act of 1914 was a bill that would grant Ireland Home Rule. This is a fact.

Scotland had a referendum on full independence in 2014. This is also a fact.

Both outcomes came about without violence. Another fact.

Not likely at all given my previous statements above.
If in 1914 Westminister agreed to give Ireland devolved powers, what makes you think that in 2020 we would have more freedom, if not complete independence.
Before you ask, think of Scotland and their drive to independence without any IRA or similar.

Some just can't fathom the idea that without the IRA we could have ended up in the same scenario of being a free independent country regardless, which begs the question of course, was it all worth it, the murdering, death, injuries, bombings and the like...

One can make the argument of the old IRA in the past is given the mandate in 1918 election to do some of the things they did.
However, the Provos had zero mandate to murder and kill.

You said we weren't occupied. I asked you to define what you think that is.
I then asked other questions based on the reasoning for our 1916 rising, the following civil war etc. You dodged.

Home rule under British law and occupation. Not independence.
At best we would be were Scotland is today, out of the EU and in the U.K.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:46pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes, yes it probably would.

So we would still be part of the UK in 2020, even though Scotland had a free and independent referendum in 2014 for their own independence...

Does.Not.Compute.

The Government of Ireland Act 1914 was the Home Rule Bill. That’s basically what Scotland and Wales have today.

You mean Scotland and Wales got devolved governments in 1997, something offered to Ireland in 1914?
And you think we would have stood still all that time?
As I said, fantasy land stuff.

Scotland got an independence referendum not 17 years later after devolution.
Home Rule would have given us devolved powers in 1914 (or when it was going to be enacted post-WWI) and no doubt would have given us the freedom to achieve freedom some decades later, as the famous words were uttered

Remember, we only officially became a Republic in 1949, decades after the Treaty. I have no doubt in the years after WWII if the democratic will was there for it, Ireland would have gained its independence, like we have today.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:48pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

We were going no where with the British and home rule.

Nowhere like Canada, Australia or NZ, other countries that had similar Home Rule arrangements?

Yea, last I heard they are still under the yolk and jackboot of British 'occupation'.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 2:51pm

Bowie wrote: »

You said we weren't occupied.

I meant it in this future context and referring to the poster's post, as in it is a myth that we would still be occupied if the IRA did not exist.

James Brown · 08-07-2020 2:53pm

markodaly wrote: »

Nowhere like Canada, Australia or NZ, other countries that had similar Home Rule arrangements?

Yea, last I heard they are still under the yolk and jackboot of British 'occupation'.

What do you mean 'still'? So you accept being ruled by a foreign power whose armed forces are in the country was occupation.

Your 'jackboot' comment and smiley face doesn't take away the fact that part of Ireland is occupied and not completely self governing. That's likely were Ireland would be today if not for the IRA and their kind and NI would likely be worse off in that regard too. I know the pesky Irish unwashed upset the landed gentry apple cart but sure what can you do? Bring the Tan/RIC back? No. At least throw them a parade right?

munsterlegend · 08-07-2020 2:55pm

markodaly wrote: »

Nowhere like Canada, Australia or NZ, other countries that had similar Home Rule arrangements?

Yea, last I heard they are still under the yolk and jackboot of British 'occupation'.

You are ignoring one significant factor geography. So how many thousands of men would we have lost in world war 2? Seeing as you have this amazing 20/20 hindsight.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:01pm

Bowie wrote: »

What do you mean 'still'? So you accept being ruled by a foreign power whose armed forces are in the country was occupation.

Your 'jackboot' comment and smiley face doesn't take away the fact that part of Ireland is occupied and not completely self governing. That's likely were Ireland would be today if not for the IRA and their kind and NI would likely be worse off in that regard too. I know the pesky Irish unwashed upset the landed gentry apple cart but sure what can you do? Bring the Tan/RIC back? No. At least throw them a parade right?

I was being sarcastic, in reference to these free, liberal and democratic countries.
They are all free from British 'Occupation', all without some subversive terrorist group fighting on its behalf.

You may think the North is still occupied but the GFA tells you otherwise.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:05pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

You are ignoring one significant factor geography. So how many thousands of men would we have lost in world war 2? Seeing as you have this amazing 20/20 hindsight.

Ah so its a hypothetical body count battle now. I love this line of argument.

A few thousand dead and murdered in the name of Irish freedom is grand so, as we stayed out of WWII. It makes it all grand so.

The Irish involvement or non-involvement in WWII is a big much wider discussion.

In terms of how many would have died, well not many seeing as we were defended by Britain in any case as they did most of the heavy lifting. :P

James Brown · 08-07-2020 3:09pm

markodaly wrote: »

I was being sarcastic, in reference to these free, liberal and democratic countries.
They are all free from British 'Occupation', all without some subversive terrorist group fighting on its behalf.

You may think the North is still occupied but the GFA tells you otherwise.

We don't know were Ireland might be today we can only look at the north.

Westminister having ultimate rule and the BA being in situ tells me otherwise.

markodaly · 08-07-2020 3:10pm

Bowie wrote: »

We don't know were Ireland might be today we can only look at the north.

Westminister having ultimate rule and the BA being in situ tells me otherwise.

Which is the democratic will of the people, is it not?

James Brown · 08-07-2020 3:13pm

markodaly wrote: »

Which is the democratic will of the people, is it not?

From what point? When they didn't give them one man one vote? When they partitioned? When they allowed them be attacked? Or you might be talking about now when they have a vote under their rule limited by their rule?
It's like invading a country, and giving them a vote based on limits you set. Democracy, sure.

munsterlegend · 08-07-2020 3:14pm

markodaly wrote: »

Ah so its a hypothetical body count battle now. I love this line of argument.

A few thousand dead and murdered in the name of Irish freedom is grand so, as we stayed out of WWII. It makes it all grand so.

The Irish involvement or non-involvement in WWII is a big much wider discussion.

In terms of how many would have died, well not many seeing as we were defended by Britain in any case as they did most of the heavy lifting. :P

It would have been countless thousand lost in world war 2 just like world war 1. Britain was fighting to save its own ass not ours. At least we had the right to make our own decision rather than our people being sent to their deaths.

If there was no IRA....

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