Journalism and cycling

Pinch Flat · 11-10-2016 12:49pm

Chuchote wrote: »

I asked Cycling Ireland and they said they no longer did insurance, I think…? (Still hate insurance companies, but was thinking about it.)

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/membership-overview

Maybe you need to check if you can join CI as an individual, I'm a member through an affiliated a club.

Lemming · 11-10-2016 1:00pm

I've got insurance with my membership of BritishCycling, but I routinely see adverts on facebook for insurance for mountain bikers and the like so there are insurance companies specialising in cover for activities like cycling.

TonyStark · 11-10-2016 1:52pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

My letter here about insurance (second one). Can't find a bleedin' Irish Times from yesterday so I can frame it and put it in the downstairs toilet for all visitors to read in awe.....

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-and-insurance-1.2822475

I find the first one more interesting, especially the line:

"The cause of this accident was another cyclist."

What really he bemoans is a failed criminal justice system.

Chuchote · 11-10-2016 2:17pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/membership-overview

Maybe you need to check if you can join CI as an individual, I'm a member through an affiliated a club.

As far as I know, anyone with home insurance has third party cover if they hurt someone in a bike crash, am I wrong in this?

cdaly_ · 11-10-2016 5:02pm

I understand this to be true.

RandomAccess · 11-10-2016 5:12pm

TonyStark wrote: »

I find the first one more interesting, especially the line:

"The cause of this accident was another cyclist."

What really he bemoans is a failed criminal justice system.

Without a reg plate of some kind it's unlikely the cyclist could be prosecuted.

Tombo2001 · 11-10-2016 5:13pm

NiallBoo wrote: »

Step 1. Cyclists get insurance
Step 2. With insurance now normal, cyclists become more inclined to claim when hit.
Step 3. Motor insurance rises

When were cyclists not inclined to claim when hit.

The motorist who hits the cyclist was previously insured, and remains insured.

The issue is that cyclists don't have third party insurance.

Indeed, its not that easy to find.

On the flip side, how is it enforced.

There is no record of who owns a bike at time of accident.

There is no obligation on cyclists to be ensured.

It would be very difficult to enforce - e.g. how would insure for third party a 7 year old cycling to school.

Tombo2001 · 11-10-2016 5:15pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'm partially in agreement. Many motorists with a car centrist mind think that cyclists should have insurance in case a cyclist scratched their car or damages a wing mirror when passing, and there seems to be loads of anecdotes to support this.

Cyclists, on the other hand, will primarily have cycling insurance to cover their own injuries, medical expenses time off work etc. Some cyclists also seem to be vehemently against it. My own view is that for €30 odd it's well worth having - I I've head many stories of people who used it to claim for not only accidents with motorists but also when they were alone and came off.

The issue is third party.

You hit a pedestrian or other cyclist, as per the letter.

Would you intend to pay for it? if so, then third party cycle insurance is really a must.

Unless, as mentioned, its covered by home insurance......

RandomAccess · 11-10-2016 5:34pm

The last time I explored this thread of thought I arrived at the conclusion that it is people that should be insured rather than cars, bikes, etc.

In that case I was considering an assault case where the victim suffered serious injuries and an award was made through the courts.

So since the root cause of an assault, collision by car or cyclist is a person, that the person is who needs to be insured.

prinzeugen · 12-10-2016 12:24am

These guys are giving cycling a good rep...

Not even from Ireland.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/785960508654493696

Chuchote · 12-10-2016 7:49am

Today's letters in The Irish Times; sweet Jesus.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/making-cycling-safer-1.2825754

Letter 1, from Kildare: basically "why build cycle lanes when the cyclists won't use them?"

Perhaps the enfolding lycra is too tight to allow blood to flow to the brain.

Letter 2:

Top marks to the Cycling Safety School scheme being run in schools around the country. We need more positive programmes like this.

Perhaps it needs a few more letters from people who cycle, citing their own experience of Irish cycle lanes?

Incidentally, a friend was wandering through a popular drinking street in Dublin city centre in the early hours recently - his work involves such wanderings - and said he saw street sweepers smashing bottles and leaving them for the street cleaning machine; he alleged that they found this easier than sweeping them up.

Chuchote · 13-10-2016 7:15am

And today's letter, from Ivan Birthistle of Dublin 4

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-motorists-and-road-safety-1.2827348

Starts out well

The impression held by some motorists that they own the road may go some way to explaining the aggression of some drivers towards cyclists.

but unfortunately then goes on

Many, if not most, cyclists are also drivers, and so pay motor taxes and are perfectly entitled to use the road, especially when cycle paths are in a state of disrepair, or are non-existent. In fact, the payment of such taxes is a red herring since road building and maintenance are subsidised from the central exchequer.

and so on. I'm getting sick of this road tax argument being countenanced at all. Put the tax on the petrol and it will make it clearer that it's payment for pollution! But maybe I'm just sensitive because I can't make that argument, having scrapped my car.

It's a good letter overall. It's good to see any defence of cycling.

Pinch Flat · 13-10-2016 9:40am

Chuchote wrote: »

I'm getting sick of this road tax argument being countenanced at all. Put the tax on the petrol and it will make it clearer that it's payment for pollution! But maybe I'm just sensitive because I can't make that argument, having scrapped my car.

The "road tax" argument seems to be a common thread in Ireland and other car-centric societies (I include our nearest neighbour the UK and the US in this bracket).

There seems to be a genuine belief among some road users, a sizable minority from my own conversations and anecdotes, that motorists pay for the roads and that other road users are there at the behest of the motorist. This seems to be particularly prevalent among younger drivers, who've grown up been ferried to an from school and graduated to a car at an early age - a lot in third level or in their first job when leaving school.

It's hard to see how this belief can be broken, but perhaps taxing fuel and lowering or eliminating "road tax" might be one way of breaking this link - the "polluter pays" principle.

magicbastarder · 13-10-2016 9:47am

Chuchote wrote: »

And today's letter, from Ivan Birthistle of Dublin 4

'ivan birthistle' is an anagram of 'inhibits travel'. hmm...

Pinch Flat · 13-10-2016 9:56am

Just as an aside, the "road tax" terminology seems to be preferred by car manufacturers as well, reinforcing the link between the motorists and paying for the roads. Have a look at car adverts in the media and they almost universally refer to the running costs, CO2 emissions etc, then the "road tax" cost of the particular vehicle. Couple of random samples below. Why don't they refer to is as the correct term - motor tax?

https://www.toyota.ie/models/rav4/index.json

http://www.hyundai.ie/car/ix20 (Click "pricing")

http://www.bmw.ie/en/all-models/1-series/3-door/2015/at-a-glance.html

***takes off tin foil hat ***

Chuchote · 13-10-2016 9:59am

I suppose the best argument against the 'road tax' trope is that it's really 'hospital tax', since anyone who spends his or her life migrating from breakfast-table to car to desk to car to couch is cooking up a nice dose of fat-fuelled heart disease and diabetes.

If we could get the majority of the population out of cars and onto bikes, our hospital crisis would wither away.

tomasrojo · 13-10-2016 10:09am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Why don't they refer to is as the correct term - motor tax?

I know a few people in the UK have complained to the ASA about the use of the term in advertising, but their complaints have been rejected on the grounds of, pretty much, ah sure, you know what they mean.

buffalo · 13-10-2016 10:10am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Just as an aside, the "road tax" terminology seems to be preferred by car manufacturers as well, reinforcing the link between the motorists and paying for the roads. Have a look at car adverts in the media and they almost universally refer to the running costs, CO2 emissions etc, then the "road tax" cost of the particular vehicle. Couple of random sample below. Why don't they refer to is as the correct term - motor tax?

I assume because 'road tax' furthers the responsibility myth, that car owners are paying for the roads, while 'motor tax' might remind people that motor transport pollutes (and sales may be affected accordingly).

What should happen is that the ASAI should hold them to account, but this is a road* we've travelled before and it leads to a dead end.

*BOOM BOOM

Pinch Flat · 13-10-2016 10:20am

buffalo wrote: »

I assume because 'road tax' furthers the responsibility myth, that car owners are paying for the roads, while 'motor tax' might remind people that motor transport pollutes (and sales may be affected accordingly).

What should happen is that the ASAI should hold them to account, but this is a road* we've travelled before and it leads to a dead end.

*BOOM BOOM

I agree, it's a hard cycle to break.

* gets coat

RandomAccess · 13-10-2016 3:45pm

If you read this in an open minded fashion you can see it as a cry for help, pleading for sanity from someone who doesn't relish a serious 'accident' unfolding in front of them.

The comments beneath it are just bizzare.
The culture of them vs us needs to be dissolved.

http://m.independent.ie/life/motoring/cyclists-like-all-road-users-must-be-mindful-of-others-35121641.html

Pinch Flat · 13-10-2016 4:09pm

RandomAccess wrote: »

If you read this in an open minded fashion you can see it as a cry for help, pleading for sanity from someone who doesn't relish a serious 'accident' unfolding in front of them.

The comments beneath it are just bizzare.
The culture of them vs us needs to be dissolved.

http://m.independent.ie/life/motoring/cyclists-like-all-road-users-must-be-mindful-of-others-35121641.html

I'm trying to visualise how the cyclist managed to turn his handlebars but still move forward. Maybe he was on one of these (there's a fella I used to see regularly around dublin in one).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideways_bike

NiallBoo · 13-10-2016 7:25pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'm trying to visualise how the cyclist managed to turn his handlebars but still move forward.

Sounds like they were just shifting their weight.

Won't somebody think of the children!

Chuchote · 14-10-2016 7:01am

Today's letter, from Eugene Doran in Dun Laoghaire, is sensible. Extract:

I’d love to see us fast-track a city where parents felt it was safe to let their children cycle. There would be such benefits in terms of obesity prevention, fitness, health and freedom. And, ironically it would reduce congestion for those who have to drive.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/promoting-cycling-in-urban-areas-1.2828577

Piece in the Examiner on the Deise Greenway - starting "Cyclists are becoming spoiled for choice"

of course… however it's a nice piece, and ends with a guide to several greenways around the country.

Carawaystick · 14-10-2016 2:19pm

Chuchote wrote: »

Today's letters in The Irish Times; sweet Jesus.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/making-cycling-safer-1.2825754

Letter 1, from Kildare: basically "why build cycle lanes when the cyclists won't use them?"

I was going to write in and use his words to question why he drove on the road from Naas to Kilcullen when "there has been provided, at great expense" a Motorway from Naas to Kilcullen. and finish with the friendly reminder that sometimes the ordinary road is more convenient for people cycling and people driving.

magicbastarder · 14-10-2016 2:47pm

i will often drive the older N roads even when there is a motorway provided.

robyntmorton · 14-10-2016 2:51pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i will often drive the older N roads even when there is a motorway provided.

I'd be the same. The M7/8 is a quick but boring, depressing road. The N25/N11 is much more fun.

2RockMountain · 17-10-2016 4:27pm

Driver 'attacked' by cyclist in Dublin city centre on Liveline today - 'growing hostility between drivers and cyclists' - from about 19:00

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/podcasts/#2310016

Did anyone see if the lady got any further callers on this topic?

Tombo2001 · 17-10-2016 4:29pm

2RockMountain wrote: »

Driver 'attacked' by cyclist in Dublin city centre on Liveline today - 'growing hostility between drivers and cyclists' - from about 19:00

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/podcasts/#2310016

Did anyone see if the lady got any further callers on this topic?

Instead of going to the police they go to liveline?

Jury by media.

average_runner · 17-10-2016 4:49pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Instead of going to the police they go to liveline?

Jury by media.

If you read the article on unison.ie, they went to the police. No witnesses so nothing can be done.

I am sure we don't have the full story here but still no excuse for kicking some one like that.

Chuchote · 17-10-2016 5:31pm

Apparently, this is what happened:

Louise got in a tangle with a cyclist recently. He came around to the driver side of the car, reached in the window, and started poking her. She told Philip about this traumatic experience

Poking her! No podcast yet, afaik, so can't learn more of this horror.

RandomAccess · 17-10-2016 5:35pm

At least she only got poked.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/i-had-a-footprint-on-my-face-driver-kicked-in-the-face-by-cyclist-after-slowing-down-35136937.html

Crazy times

Grassey · 17-10-2016 5:54pm

I'm confused as to how the cyclist managed to open the passenger door, hold onto the roof of the car and extend leg far enough through car to kick him in the face, while still on the bike and then cycle off. His legs must make up 5ft of his 6'2 height!

Id say the only piece of truth in the story is that the cyclist banged the car (after he stopped suddenly to let other cars filter in) then cycled off. Story doesn't sound as good that way though.

Donal55 · 17-10-2016 5:57pm

Grassey wrote: »

I'm confused as to how the cyclist managed to open the passenger door, hold onto the roof of the car and extend leg far enough through car to kick him in the face, while still on the bike and then cycle off. His legs must make up 5ft of his 6'2 height!

Id say the only piece of truth in the story is that the cyclist banged the car (after he stopped suddenly to let other cars filter in) then cycled off. Story doesn't sound as good that way though.

You wouldn't need to be 6'2 to kick someone in the face from the passenger side of a car.

RandomAccess · 17-10-2016 6:26pm

With door as bracing or a roof rack it wouldn't be that hard to kick into the car. It didn't say he stayed on his bike while doing it.
I'd say it's not beyond belief at all.

ThisRegard · 17-10-2016 6:35pm

There was another caller from Kilkenny, she claimed that nobody else pays taxes to use the roads but motorists, and suggested licence plates.

It's like if you took the DNA from every poster who said something dumb or had a rant on the subject of cyclists on boards.ie, mixed it together to create an individual, that individual rang Liveline today.

There was another guy who tried to link cyclists with the scumbag that snatched his phone but the host gave that short shrift.

2RockMountain · 17-10-2016 9:50pm

RandomAccess wrote: »

With door as bracing or a roof rack it wouldn't be that hard to kick into the car. It didn't say he stayed on his bike while doing it.
I'd say it's not beyond belief at all.

He didn't just 'kick into the car'. From the passenger door, he apparently managed to kick to a position around 1.5m high and about 2m across the width of the car, in order to kick where the driver's head would be.

Something smelly here.

average_runner · 18-10-2016 9:56am

2RockMountain wrote: »

He didn't just 'kick into the car'. From the passenger door, he apparently managed to kick to a position around 1.5m high and about 2m across the width of the car, in order to kick where the driver's head would be.

Something smelly here.

In fairness it quiet easy to do, try your self with no one in your car. Hang on the roof and reach across. And it never said he was still on the bike and the car was at a stand still.

Anyhow I always get the feeling that people here won't believe a bad thing against cyclists but if its anyone else its totally different.

Chuchote · 18-10-2016 10:06am

I'd believe it; there are plenty of angry, self-entitled cyclists, just as there are plenty of angry, self-entitled drivers. It would take someone pretty lunatic to kick someone deliberately in the face, though. But considering the kind of attacks on strangers there have been (by pedestrians) in places like Temple Bar and the north inner city and Limerick, we shouldn't be surprised if some aggro merchant takes to two wheels.

magicbastarder · 18-10-2016 10:10am

average_runner wrote: »

Anyhow I always get the feeling that people here won't believe a bad thing against cyclists but if its anyone else its totally different.

i don't get any 'he couldn't have done it because he's a cyclist' attitude, it's mainly around whether what is reported is actually possible.

and you do get plenty of complaints on here from people giving out about other cyclists' behaviour.

average_runner · 18-10-2016 10:17am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't get any 'he couldn't have done it because he's a cyclist' attitude, it's mainly around whether what is reported is actually possible.

and you do get plenty of complaints on here from people giving out about other cyclists' behaviour.

Of course its possible to do, anyone can kick out straight into a car.

terrydel · 18-10-2016 10:18am

Am I the only one who sees this stoking of the fire by our pathetic, trolling media, ultimately resulting in the death of someone, more than likely a cyclist given the natural disadvantage they have in the cyclist/motorist 'war'?

And I am not for one minute defending either side, there are a huge number of dicks on both sides of the argument, but to see the media actively encouraging and pushing this conflict is a disgrace imho, and will lead to blood on their hands sooner or later. Am I being overly dramatic?

Fian · 18-10-2016 10:20am

The comment are a sight to be seen. Not particularly surprising given the content I suppose.

However I don't see how taxing, licencing, registering and insuring cyclists would operate to reduce the chances of a scumbag who happened to be on a bike kicking a driver in the face.

Moflojo · 18-10-2016 10:21am

I'm pretty sure "Eugene" who calls in to Liveline (at around 12 minutes on the podcast) is one of the Rubberbandits.

Chips Lovell · 18-10-2016 10:34am

Seriously folks, what are ye doing listening to Liveline?

ThisRegard · 18-10-2016 10:59am

With just me and the dogs working during the day, I need something to give me a superiority boost in the absence of a pat on the back from management.

Lemming · 18-10-2016 11:56am

ThisRegard wrote: »

There was another caller from Kilkenny, she claimed that nobody else pays taxes to use the roads but motorists, and suggested licence plates.

She also tried to hold up the bad behaviour of children aged (10-13) with all cyclists.

Edit: I encountered three kids - estimate age between 11 - 13 on bikes on my way home from the supermarket on Saturday evening, on a busy road (40mph limit) with absolutely no lights and it was dark, not fading light. I spotted something small wearing a white full-face helmet comiung around the roundabout I was about to enter and take 1st left on, and realised it was a kid on a bike so stayed behind rather than overtake because a) lights were about 50m ahead with road not great for overtaking on, b) spotted his two mates about 15m ahead of him, and c) so that no other car would do something dumb and/or not see them. What I got for my efforts at the next lights was that all three of them spread out across two lanes (straight-ahead/left, and a filter lane right) and slowed riiiiiiiight down to troll the traffic for having stayed behind them. I don't blame that on cyclists; just kids with bad behaviour and sh1t parenting.

tomasrojo · 18-10-2016 11:56am

I haven't seen any escalation in tension. Back during the boom, that was when I noticed all sorts of weird hostility.

NiallBoo · 18-10-2016 12:45pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I haven't seen any escalation in tension. Back during the boom, that was when I noticed all sorts of weird hostility.

I wonder if the Dutch and the Danes will be willing to take in some of our cyclist refugees when tensions spike and a proper civil war kicks off.

NiallBoo · 18-10-2016 1:06pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Cyclists were here first... We nearly went extinct but we have been reintroduced and numbers are soaring :-) Let the motorists move out of our town and city centres. Car dependency has done more than enough damage at this stage.

Ah well I'm afraid the "I was here first" argument trends to not work so well in wars.

ThisRegard · 18-10-2016 1:59pm

Incoming on Livelive now, continuing the great cyclist/motorist war of 2016.

Journalism and cycling

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