What constitutes a meal?

the_syco · 20-05-2020 10:00pm #1

https://www.thejournal.ie/pint-dublin-restaurants-june-august-pubs-bars-5103688-May2020/

FOUR OUT OF 10 Dublin pubs are planning to re-open ‘as restaurants’ on 29 June, according to a new survey.

No doubt, they'll have to serve food before drink. Anyone who went clubbing in the 90's may remember a few places had to give patrons a ticket for food if they were going dancing.

So the question is; what will the pubs restaurants have to serve to class themselves as "restaurants"? Diceys carvery of mash and beef, or will there be a minimum price of the food? And then can said minimum price include pints?

johnnyskeleton · 20-05-2020 10:07pm

I think there are two different licences for pubs and restaurants. The government has said that pubs are closed. Some places have dedicated pub and restaurant bits, but I'd imagine any pub trying to bend the rules would be closed down pretty sharpish.

However, within the context of a place that does have a full menu, I'm sure they could serve you a pint with a starter or a bowl of chips

mgn · 20-05-2020 10:10pm

Heard Charlie Chawke being interviewed the other day, he said if someone ordered a plate of chips he would serve them a pint.

Can see the fryer being busy for a lot of customers.

CinemaGuy45 · 20-05-2020 10:36pm

Had enough of this rubbish if people are in an establishment what does it matter if they have cabbage and bacon or vodka and cola?

punisher5112 · 20-05-2020 10:40pm

mgn wrote: »

Heard Charlie Chawke being interviewed the other day, he said if someone ordered a plate of chips he would serve them a pint.

Can see the fryer being busy for a lot of customers.

There is a metal container out close to the road at his goat pub, went in over last week and it's selling pizza etc....

Few bench tables out too....

These people don't miss a trick and he has made his money and some....

Surprised he hadn't this set up before now.

Victor · 20-05-2020 10:58pm

In general terms 'meal' would mean at least a sandwich. Peanuts / crisps wouldn't count.

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Had enough of this rubbish if people are in an establishment what does it matter if they have cabbage and bacon or vodka and cola?

Cabbage and bacon doesn't usually make people talk like an eejit and spit while doing so or make them want to wear the face off each other.

CinemaGuy45 · 20-05-2020 11:12pm

Victor wrote: »

Cabbage and bacon doesn't usually make people talk like an eejit and spit while doing so or make them want to wear the face off each other.

But thats their own business.

Rows Grower · 20-05-2020 11:26pm

the_syco wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/pint-dublin-restaurants-june-august-pubs-bars-5103688-May2020/

No doubt, they'll have to serve food before drink. Anyone who went clubbing in the 90's may remember a few places had to give patrons a ticket for food if they were going dancing.

So the question is; what will the pubs restaurants have to serve to class themselves as "restaurants"? Diceys carvery of mash and beef, or will there be a minimum price of the food? And then can said minimum price include pints?

90's?

I was only a young fella myself but when I was doing door work in the mid to late 80's you couldn't have a late night bar unless there was a supper ticket included in the admission price.

Nobody went there for the boiled rice and chicken curry but potential messers would be given an extra ticket if they asked which they usually did or maybe sometimes by mistake.

If it all kicked off, they never bit the hand that fed.

Fr Tod Umptious · 21-05-2020 12:01am

One big plus I'm all this is that you might have pubs serving food beyond 9pm.

You can barely get a sandwich in a pub in this country after 9, it would be good if they became places to eat late and not just drink.

Michael McDowell rejoice, your Cafe Bars have arrived.

PTH2009 · 21-05-2020 12:17am

What is a Cafe bar ???

Guy:Incognito · 21-05-2020 12:23am

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

But thats their own business.

Well, their business and the business of their family and anyone else they might be around in a shop etc......

jhegarty · 21-05-2020 12:31am

Restaurant Menu

Yellow Snack
Pink Snack

PTH2009 · 21-05-2020 12:33am

jhegarty wrote: »

Restaurant Menu
Yellow Snack
Pink Snack

Tayto and a packet of nuts

Added for special occasions

Purple Mountain · 21-05-2020 12:33am

jhegarty wrote: »

Restaurant Menu
Yellow Snack
Pink Snack

Salted peanuts
Dry roasted peanuts

Fr Tod Umptious · 21-05-2020 9:26am

PTH2009 wrote: »

What is a Cafe bar ???

Cafe Bars

PDs Michael McDowell's great idea from 2005 to drag us into modern European culture by people actually eating while drinking and not just drinking to get drunk.

The idea was that a premises smaller than the current allowed pub size could get a license e to server alcohol as long as it was also serving food.

Got shot down by the FF pub lobby.

So in a COVID world were pubs would be opening as restaurants or cafes it might actually happen, albeit in larger size premises rather than smaller sized ones as McDowell envisaged

biko · 21-05-2020 9:41am

A lot of bigger pubs were already converted into gastro pubs so there is ample space for tables and chairs.

Drinking pubs will have to wait a while.

Harry Palmr · 21-05-2020 9:45am

PTH2009 wrote: »

What is a Cafe bar ???

It's that thing that Michael McDowell tried to get made a thing and which conservative political Ireland (read pub owning FF) rejected

L1011 · 21-05-2020 9:46am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It's that thing that Michael McDowell tried to get made a thing and which conservative political Ireland (read FF) rejected

There's FG publicans also, they were both against it.

Harry Palmr · 21-05-2020 9:51am

True but FF saw the chance to give McDowell a going over with that proposal which they didn't hesitate to administer

KeithTS · 21-05-2020 9:52am

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Had enough of this rubbish if people are in an establishment what does it matter if they have cabbage and bacon or vodka and cola?

I would assume it's down to a room having tables etc. which would force some levels of distancing. There's a big difference between the interactions of groups around tables ordering drinks/food with table service and a bar which has groups leaning over each other to get a round in.

Add into the mix that people may get less smashed if they're eating as this might mean they're a little more cautious/sensible.

Rodin · 21-05-2020 9:53am

the_syco wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/pint-dublin-restaurants-june-august-pubs-bars-5103688-May2020/

No doubt, they'll have to serve food before drink. Anyone who went clubbing in the 90's may remember a few places had to give patrons a ticket for food if they were going dancing.

So the question is; what will the pubs restaurants have to serve to class themselves as "restaurants"? Diceys carvery of mash and beef, or will there be a minimum price of the food? And then can said minimum price include pints?

The GPO in Galway! Best chicken curry ever at about midnight

freshpopcorn · 21-05-2020 9:59am

It reminds me of a 12 pubs of Christmas a few years ago.
Went to a hotel bar and they wouldn’t serve unless food was ordered and everybody had to order a bowl of soup with there pints.

osarusan · 21-05-2020 10:45am

Shur there's aytin and drinkin in Guinness.

ELM327 · 21-05-2020 10:48am

Rodin wrote: »

The GPO in Galway! Best chicken curry ever at about midnight

the 90's?
I remember going to barcode in the early-mid 2000's and it still had food at the end of the night

biko · 21-05-2020 11:19am

The old SnackBox on Shop Street rocked!

Rowley Birkin QC · 21-05-2020 11:57am

rubadub · 30-05-2020 11:12am

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1962/act/21/section/9/enacted/en/html#sec9

9.—(1) For the purposes of the Licensing Acts and the Registration of Clubs Acts a meal served in any premises after the commencement of this Act shall not be deemed to be a substantial meal unless—

(a) the meal is such as might be expected to be served as a main midday or main evening meal or as a main course at either such meal, and

(b) the meal is of a kind for which—

(i) having regard to the prices charged for meals in the premises at times other than prohibited hours, or

(ii) if meals are not normally served in the premises, having regard to all the circumstances,

it would be reasonable to charge a sum that is not less than—

(I) the sum (if any) that for the time being stands fixed under subsection (2) of this section, or

(II) if no sum stands fixed for the time being under the said subsection (2), five shillings.

(2) The Minister for Justice may from time to time, by order, fix such sum, being more than five shillings, as he considers reasonable for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section and may, by order, revoke or amend any order under this subsection.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/si/442/made/en/print

3. The sum of €9.00 is fixed for the purposes of section 9 (1) of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1962 .

below is for a "special restaurant licence", not sure if there is a difference.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/act/16/enacted/en/print#sec7

the intoxicating liquor is—

(i) ordered by or on behalf of a person for whom a substantial meal has been ordered,

(ii) supplied in either the waiting area or the dining area of the restaurant,

(iii) consumed in the waiting area of the restaurant before the meal by the person for whom the meal has been ordered, or consumed by that person in the dining area of the restaurant either during the meal or at any time not later than thirty minutes after the meal has ended, and

(iv) paid for at the same time as the meal is paid for:

Provided always that suitable beverages other than intoxicating liquor (including drinking water) are also available for consumption.

So it might be the case that Charlie Chawke will have to charge 9euro for his plate of chips and if the chips are finished they only have 30mins to drink up, they cannot buy pints as they go, have to run up a tab like a restaurant or pay in advance. This may not be the case of course, I might be missing something, but a possibility reading those laws.

Charles Babbage · 30-05-2020 2:35pm

A simple guide to he definition of a restauarant would be that patrons must spend more on food than alcohol.

Chawke's pubs at the Goat and Dropping Well always had huge food business, I expect he can stay reasonably close to the spirit of the law, whatever about other pubs propoposing to open.

30-05-2020 2:40pm

biko wrote: »

A lot of bigger pubs were already converted into gastro pubs so there is ample space for tables and chairs.

Drinking pubs will have to wait a while.

That’s when we’ll really see a pub. These faux restaurants shouldn’t be classed as them at all.

Water John · 30-05-2020 2:49pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A simple guide to he definition of a restauarant would be that patrons must spend more on food than alcohol.

Chawke's pubs at the Goat and Dropping Well always had huge food business, I expect he can stay reasonably close to the spirit of the law, whatever about other pubs propoposing to open.

Since, as a country, we spend more on alcohol than food, then the nation is a pub.

30-05-2020 2:51pm

Water John wrote: »

Since, as a country, we spend more on alcohol than food, then the nation is a pub.

And long way it continue before we all disappear up our own arseholes.

rubadub · 30-05-2020 6:59pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A simple guide to he definition of a restauarant would be that patrons must spend more on food than alcohol..

somebody is going to have to order a couple of cows to go with their wine in Shanahans.

https://shanahans.ie/wine-list-main/main/
Pauillac, Château Lafite Rothschild, 1er Cru Classé 2000 (LB) €4000
Echezeaux Grand Cru, Romanée-Conti 2004 €2369

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Chawke's pubs at the Goat and Dropping Well always had huge food business, I expect he can stay reasonably close to the spirit of the law, whatever about other pubs propoposing to open.

That is why he is stupid to be openly taking the piss in interviews. The head shops had more discretion about the laws they were bending. Other publicans must be furious with him coming out with stuff like that.

double jobbing · 31-05-2020 12:16pm

rubadub wrote: »

So it might be the case that Charlie Chawke will have to charge 9euro for his plate of chips and if the chips are finished they only have 30mins to drink up, they cannot buy pints as they go, have to run up a tab like a restaurant or pay in advance. This may not be the case of course, I might be missing something, but a possibility reading those laws.

Difficult to see how this can be enforced tbh.

What if I nibble on my chips for five hours while I drink 9 pints?

Can I share the plate with the missus/ friends so we don't all have to buy a "meal"? How could these particulars possibly be inspected?

Strangely I saw that Wetherspoons have stated they are not planning to use this trick to re open early and expect to re open on the current pub date in August. Strange in that

- the CEO Tim Martin is a bit of a Michael O'Leary type, sees himself as a bit of a cage rattler to the establishment. He even insisted at the start that pubs were low risk centres of transmission and wanted to stay open. Would have thought this sort of arm chancing was right up his street

- Spoons serves more food than your average pub. Granted not particularly tasty food (apparently a lot of it is microwaved!) but food nonetheless

- the upstairs in the one on Abbey St you can't order at the bar, at least at the weekend (could at the start but they got rid of it), only by using the app for table service and paying with it. Annoying but for a pint that's about 2.80 cheaper than anywhere else in town you roll with it.

- most branches I've been in are already effectively socially distanced by design. Tables are spread out, a lack of live music and generally no sport on TV (although the Blackrock one has Sky Sports, don't know how the Spoons model alllows them to afford it) means people don't tend to stand around pint n hand anywhere in the pub, it tends to be a place where friends sit in groups, couples at two seat tables, not exactly the type of place people go to pull strangers.

rubadub · 31-05-2020 12:31pm

double jobbing wrote: »

What if I nibble on my chips for five hours while I drink 9 pints?

seems you are fine as long as you paid 9euro for the chips and you did not pay for pints as you went along, you order 9 at the start and them deliver them out to you as you want, or you can run up a tab ordering more as you go and pay for the pints and 9euro chips at the end.

double jobbing wrote: »

Can I share the plate with the missus/ friends so we don't all have to buy a "meal"?

All have to buy if drinking, my previous quote covered that.

double jobbing · 31-05-2020 1:14pm

rubadub wrote: »

s.

All have to buy if drinking, my previous quote covered that.

Seems a bone of contention, it would be very common for people to share the likes of chicken wings or a pizza.

rubadub · 31-05-2020 1:26pm

double jobbing wrote: »

Seems a bone of contention, it would be very common for people to share the likes of chicken wings or a pizza.

if the price is 9 euro per head it might be OK. I am not sure, you do not have to eat the food at all. If a stag party turned up to a restaurant and got totally loud & shitfaced with 1 bowl of wings between 20 of them then the owner and other guests might not be impressed.

This is usually not an issue for restaurants as few are taking the complete piss and effectively trying to turn them into pubs. Restaurants are allowed to set up where pubs might not be, e.g. residential areas. Takeaways are not allowed open where restaurants are either. Planning permission would be turned down if there are going to be drunks exiting at all hours, or litter etc from takeaways.

Chawke is making it very clear he does not give a flying fuck about the law and is going to bend it to breaking point, or just outright break it by the sound of it. This is why other publicans who legitimately do want to go along with the spirit of the law should hate him, it could make the authorities more aware and have more checks.

Asset management · 31-05-2020 1:35pm

The Goat selling pints in car park this weekend

double jobbing · 31-05-2020 1:45pm

Asset management wrote: »

The Goat selling pints in car park this weekend

Few places in town selling them in plastic pint glasses for takeaway.

Why anybody would pay 6 quid for this I don't know.

31-05-2020 1:47pm

Whether do you drink them? I thought you couldn’t be out in public drinking?

Asset management · 01-06-2020 7:30pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Whether do you drink them? I thought you couldn’t be out in public drinking?

https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1267504970120794112?s=19

Nowhere now.

What constitutes a meal?

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