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Problems with School Principals & Appointments

  • 06-07-2019 3:46pm
    #1
    SouthernNoir
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭


    Having read many posts here regarding problems with Principals and issues regarding appointments I thought it might be an idea to start a thread dedicated to the topic.

    The one overarching problem is that, for the most part, Principals seem to be unaccountable.
    Within the majority of schools this isn't an issue because the Principals are doing a fair and professional job.

    In terms of the day to day running of the school, I would estimate that 10% of schools have a Principal who is either unfair, unprofessional, incompetent or some combination of the three.

    However in terms of appointments, I'd estimate that 90% of schools have appointed someone on the basis of nepotism, favoritism or other unfair reason.

    BOM's are weak, generally they are unwilling to reign principals in or cause any awkwardness. Teachers are unwilling to complain to a BOM for fear that nothing significant will be done and/or the Principal will be made aware that they have made a complaint.
    Unions represent both the teachers and Principals so there is an obvious conflict of interest there. In my experience, the INTO just kept reiterating how a procedure SHOULD be carried out when I complained about how my Principal was carrying out said procedure.

    Appointments are an absolute joke. It's an open secret that many (and maybe most) jobs are gone before they are ever advertised. There's plenty of stories in threads here about this. I have about 5 of my own. I have been a beneficiary & a victim of unfair appointments in the past.

    The worst example I've heard of happened to a friend of mine. She was newly qualified from Pats and had applied for a fixed term position. A few days before the interview she received a call from the Principal of the school, Principal told her that it was only a maternity leave and probably wouldn't suit her. She went for the interview anyway, at the end of the interview the priest asked if she had any questions so she asked why the job had changed to a maternity leave. The Principal and the Principal's husband, who was the other Principal on the interview panel, kept there heads down, Priest replied that there was a fixed term and a maternity. My friend replied that the Principal had rang her and told her it was only maternity. Both Principals kept their heads down and the priest, visibly embarrassed reiterated that there were two jobs up for grabs. The Principal was on the top table of the local INTO branch at the time. A teacher who had trained in England & hadn't her SEG (Irish) got the fixed term job. My friend was offered the maternity leave.


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Comments

  • #2
    strawberrie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 180 ✭✭strawberrie


    To be honest, as a principal who is spending their holidays sorting through cvs, shortlisting, contacting candidates,
    arranging interviews and having BOM meetings I resent all the estimated allegations in this thread...
    After the interviews there will be references to check, paperwork for the diocese and dept and contacting all the applicants.
    Very accountable to interview panel, diocese, board, applicants and having great fun on my hols.
    SouthernNoir wrote: »
    Having read many posts here regarding problems with Principals and issues regarding appointments I thought it might be an idea to start a thread dedicated to the topic.

    The one overarching problem is that, for the most part, Principals seem to be unaccountable.
    Within the majority of schools this isn't an issue because the Principals are doing a fair and professional job.

    In terms of the day to day running of the school, I would estimate that 10% of schools have a Principal who is either unfair, unprofessional, incompetent or some combination of the three.

    However in terms of appointments, I'd estimate that 90% of schools have appointed someone on the basis of nepotism, favoritism or other unfair reason.

    BOM's are weak, generally they are unwilling to reign principals in or cause any awkwardness. Teachers are unwilling to complain to a BOM for fear that nothing significant will be done and/or the Principal will be made aware that they have made a complaint.
    Unions represent both the teachers and Principals so there is an obvious conflict of interest there. In my experience, the INTO just kept reiterating how a procedure SHOULD be carried out when I complained about how my Principal was carrying out said procedure.

    Appointments are an absolute joke. It's an open secret that many (and maybe most) jobs are gone before they are ever advertised. There's plenty of stories in threads here about this. I have about 5 of my own. I have been a beneficiary & a victim of unfair appointments in the past.

    The worst example I've heard of happened to a friend of mine. She was newly qualified from Pats and had applied for a fixed term position. A few days before the interview she received a call from the Principal of the school, Principal told her that it was only a maternity leave and probably wouldn't suit her. She went for the interview anyway, at the end of the interview the priest asked if she had any questions so she asked why the job had changed to a maternity leave. The Principal and the Principal's husband, who was the other Principal on the interview panel, kept there heads down, Priest replied that there was a fixed term and a maternity. My friend replied that the Principal had rang her and told her it was only maternity. Both Principals kept their heads down and the priest, visibly embarrassed reiterated that there were two jobs up for grabs. The Principal was on the top table of the local INTO branch at the time. A teacher who had trained in England & hadn't her SEG (Irish) got the fixed term job. My friend was offered the maternity leave.


  • #3
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    strawberrie wrote: »
    To be honest, as a principal who is spending their holidays sorting through cvs, shortlisting, contacting candidates,
    arranging interviews and having BOM meetings I resent all the estimated allegations in this thread...
    After the interviews there will be references to check, paperwork for the diocese and dept and contacting all the applicants.
    Very accountable to interview panel, diocese, board, applicants and having great fun on my hols.



    That may be so, but countless teachers have had these experiences, myself included.

    Have seen a situation where a job was advertised for Geography and Maths (I've changed the subjects) and a Geography and French teacher was hired. Staff puzzled as maths was a shortage subject and there were 5 French teachers on staff. Principal 'I liked the French teacher at the interview and couldn't not hire her'. What was a French teacher being shortlisted for in the first place when they didn't have maths, and how was this justified to the panel who are supposed to be hiring for maths (and geography obviously). How does the post interview discussion go? Random county councillor on panel: So we have 5 maths teachers to choose from-
    Principal: Pick the French teacher
    County councillor: Um, ok I thought you needed maths, but I'm only here for the expenses, so it's your gig.

    How can a principal justify hiring someone who does not have the required subjects, when other candidates do? At the most basic, a teacher should have the required subjects for the job.

    Have also seen instances of new teachers names appearing on vsware a week before interviews were held. Therefore the only conclusion is that the person was picked before the interviews were held. It can and does happen. Regularly.

    Teachers who are going for re-interview and know they are being retained for the second year know going into the interview that they are being rehired, which means that the interview is going to go their way. Whether that be designing questions to suit their CV, or loading the marks on the marking scheme to favour them, that in itself is a predetermined outcome. Not for the poor eejit who is applying for the job in good faith and hoping they might be employed.


    As for responding to applicants, I'm sure there's a heap of people on here (and I know loads myself) that have applied for jobs and never get so much as a PFO email back. Some don't even get the rejection after attending for interview. It's shockingly ignorant on the part of the school/ETB. A friend of mine interviewed for a job a couple of weeks ago. Presumably there were 6 or 7 candidates max for the job. Hasn't heard a word since. Clearly hasn't got the job. School couldn't be bothered to send a rejection letter or email.


    You might be diligent in your hiring practices, but teachers being treated in a shoddy manner at all stages of application, hiring, outcome is widespread.


  • #4
    bobbyss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,263 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    strawberrie wrote:
    To be honest, as a principal who is spending their holidays sorting through cvs, shortlisting, contacting candidates, arranging interviews and having BOM meetings I resent all the estimated allegations in this thread... After the interviews there will be references to check, paperwork for the diocese and dept and contacting all the applicants. Very accountable to interview panel, diocese, board, applicants and having great fun on my hols.


    I suppose that's why you get paid extra.

    To do all that stuff.

    If your resentment is such, you could always step down?


  • #5
    strawberrie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 180 ✭✭strawberrie


    It's not the work I resent but the posters assumption that its corrupt!

    The work ensures that we get the best teacher possible for our pupils and staff.

    I'm at primary level so can't comment on the employment of subject teachers, it does sound crazy to hire a French teacher if you need maths.

    However, my experience at primary is that recruitment has changed, is monitored by the dept and diocese. The vast majority of posts are now filled by the panel or supplementary panel.
    I have a long doc from diocese on procedures to follow when appointing, a list of approved names that have to be chosen from for the independent assessor for interviews and many other tasks that are followed to ensure fair recruitment of staff.
    bobbyss wrote: »
    I suppose that's why you get paid extra.

    To do all that stuff.

    If your resentment is such, you could always step down?


  • #6
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Primary is wildly different from secondary, partly due to the panel system and partly due to the fact that a primary job is not split up into hours or subjects. There is either a job there or there isn't. There are teachers on here who have had negative experiences going for primary school jobs like what was described in the OP.

    You are entering bandit country when attempting to get a job in a secondary school. If you are living a rural county and you play GAA (county preferably), have a relation who is a nun or a priest or a county councillor or have some relation working for the school/ETB you have a massive advantage going into an interview.

    There are subjects like Home Economics, Irish, French, Physics where there are shortages so those jobs have a greater tendency to be a level playing field, but when I see the 'best of luck in the provincial final' email go out from my ETB and 15 of the panel are named as ETB teachers I have to think that's not a coincidence that they all managed to get jobs with the one employer.


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  • #7
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    strawberrie wrote: »
    It's not the work I resent but the posters assumption that its corrupt!

    The work ensures that we get the best teacher possible for our pupils and staff.

    Why can't corruption exist? Look back on threads here over the years where people have had those experiences. Loads of people on here (particularly in secondary) will be able to tell you of direct experience where they know of a job and know who was earmarked for it before it was ever advertised or interviewed.


  • #8
    strawberrie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 180 ✭✭strawberrie


    I am not not saying it doesn't. I take issue with the initial posters assumption that 90% of schools have breached hiring regulations. That the majority of schools don't follow the rules. The estimated percentages and blanket assumptions are just unfair to the schools and many principals I know who are doing their best and following the procedures.
    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Why can't corruption exist? Look back on threads here over the years where people have had those experiences. Loads of people on here (particularly in secondary) will be able to tell you of direct experience where they know of a job and know who was earmarked for it before it was ever advertised or interviewed.


  • #9
    bobbyss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,263 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Primary is wildly different from secondary, partly due to the panel system and partly due to the fact that a primary job is not split up into hours or subjects. There is either a job there or there isn't. There are teachers on here who have had negative experiences going for primary school jobs like what was described in the OP.

    You are entering bandit country when attempting to get a job in a secondary school. If you are living a rural county and you play GAA (county preferably), have a relation who is a nun or a priest or a county councillor or have some relation working for the school/ETB you have a massive advantage going into an interview.

    There are subjects like Home Economics, Irish, French, Physics where there are shortages so those jobs have a greater tendency to be a level playing field, but when I see the 'best of luck in the provincial final' email go out from my ETB and 15 of the panel are named as ETB teachers I have to think that's not a coincidence that they all managed to get jobs with the one employer.

    I know of two former county players who are or have been school principals.
    I am not saying that they are not there on merit but it is something that you would make a note of and reflect on.

    The poor blighters who have to travel to attend and perhaps stay overnight to make an early morning interview for a job already gone. I've been there. I've had rejection letters arrive the day before an interview. I sense there's little you can do as you would get the feeling your name would be put down in a little black book and all further applications would be binned.

    Nowadays you can, I believe, request the interview notes if you were unsuccessful at interview to try and get an understanding of the panel's rationale. I don't know anyone who as done that. However if the panel wants a particular candidate and agree, I'm sure these notes are doctored as suits.


  • #10
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    bobbyss wrote: »
    I know of two former county players who are or have been school principals.
    I am not saying that they are not there on merit but it is something that you would make a note of and reflect on.

    The poor blighters who have to travel to attend and perhaps stay overnight to make an early morning interview for a job already gone. I've been there. I've had rejection letters arrive the day before an interview. I sense there's little you can do as you would get the feeling your name would be put down in a little black book and all further applications would be binned.

    Nowadays you can, I believe, request the interview notes if you were unsuccessful at interview to try and get an understanding of the panel's rationale. I don't know anyone who as done that. However if the panel wants a particular candidate and agree, I'm sure these notes are doctored as suits.

    Yep, I've had friends who've been rejected before the interview or to arrive home that evening and found the letter waiting for them since that morning.

    I've had friends request their marks and it's laughable when you see the scores and then see who got the job. Scoring in the high 90s in the interview and see someone with very little experience get the job ahead of them. It's very easy to weight scores so the person with lots of experience gets a high score which on first glance appears fair but they still don't get the job.

    E.g. 10 marks going for qualifications: well if you set the qualification requirement as degree and dip, everyone gets full marks, but the person with the further qualifications such as a masters, postgrad, PhD gets zero for their extras ( if the panel don't want that person). Oh the chosen candidate has done young scientist and the person with 15 years experience has done every competition going except young scientist, sorry you don't score high in that extra curricular category you didn't have what we were looking for. It's so easily tailored.


  • #11
    Grueller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,261 ✭✭✭Grueller


    bobbyss wrote: »
    I know of two former county players who are or have been school principals.
    I am not saying that they are not there on merit but it is something that you would make a note of and reflect on.

    The poor blighters who have to travel to attend and perhaps stay overnight to make an early morning interview for a job already gone. I've been there. I've had rejection letters arrive the day before an interview. I sense there's little you can do as you would get the feeling your name would be put down in a little black book and all further applications would be binned.

    Nowadays you can, I believe, request the interview notes if you were unsuccessful at interview to try and get an understanding of the panel's rationale. I don't know anyone who as done that. However if the panel wants a particular candidate and agree, I'm sure these notes are doctored as suits.

    The commitment and ambition required to be an inter county footballer or hurler is massive. I know several of them and they bring this commitment to all walks of their lives so I wouldn't wonder at a few of them making principal.


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  • #12
    SouthernNoir
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭SouthernNoir


    strawberrie wrote: »
    I am not not saying it doesn't. I take issue with the initial posters assumption that 90% of schools have breached hiring regulations. That the majority of schools don't follow the rules. The estimated percentages and blanket assumptions are just unfair to the schools and many principals I know who are doing their best and following the procedures.

    Strawberrie, if you disagree with my figures I'd be interested to hear what you consider to be accurate. I'm a primary teacher too by the way.

    You appear to be the type of Principal who goes by the book all of the time. I wish more Principals were like you in that regard. But I have to reiterate, in my experience the numbers I posted above are a rational estimate. I'm not saying that it's every single job, but I do believe it has happened in 90% of schools at least once.

    I know a teacher who took a job in Dublin after college. She has 10 years done now and wants to move home (to a border county). She can't get a permanent position due to the panel, so she's taken to applying to fixed term jobs in the hope that she can get panel rights after 2 years. She applied for twelve fixed term jobs in June and only got one interview. There couldn't be anyone with as much experience as her applying for these jobs. Plus she has a masters.


  • #13
    jonseyblub
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭jonseyblub


    bobbyss wrote: »
    I know of two former county players who are or have been school principals.
    I am not saying that they are not there on merit but it is something that you would make a note of and reflect on.

    .

    This line of thinking annoys me at times...I've seen it mentioned countless times on this forum and Facebook in that if a person doesn't get the job it's because the lad/lassie who got it plays football. We work in schools where over the last 10 years or so the amount of people who will take teams is decreasing more and more. I'm sure most of us know that a fair percentage of pupils who come to certain schools only do so for sports so having a teacher who is willing (and capable) of taking teams is invaluable. So if I were a principal that would have to be one of the criteria I would use as well as qualifications etc. The same would apply I'm sure for teachers who were willing to do drama/ computer clubs etc


  • #14
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Over the years I worked, in Dublin, with 8 county players from my principal's home county. Not a single one ever took a team as they were too busy driving up and down for training. And several of them were given the job over teachers who had already been there for several years on part time hours taking any number of teams and clubs, in the days before the Ward circular offered some protection to existing part time teachers.

    Three were from the one in-demand shortage subject which seems to have very few teachers from Dublin in its ranks. Each stayed 2 years until they got a permanent job at home after building up a bit of experience. The first one was given the job over a local fella who had subbed for a couple of years for us before training and had got on great. The school then had to drop the subject after the succession of county players dried up, meanwhile the local teacher got a permanent job in Meath. Taking on county players seemed to be a strategy for that principal but it certainly didn't serve the students well.


  • #15
    amacca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,104 ✭✭✭amacca


    The dept should be made pay for all the hours put in on extra curricular imo

    That might put this "productivity" horse**** in context.


  • #16
    Snapgal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Snapgal


    My dealings with job interviews with majority of principals and BOMs has been that they are so corrupt especially in rural Ireland. Left a permanent position over 5 years ago to relocate home and still job searching.My subjects are so called "in demand" subjects - gaeilge and MFL.I have over 16 years experience, done lots of extra curricular and co curricular activities to promote my subjects , got on well with staff, put myself forward on committees to help promote the school, do after school/weekends CPD, have examined for SEC and last year five of my LC hons class students got H1s - still not good enough!! Two instances I know for sure where I didn't get back to two schools due to nepotism. An independent interview board needs to be set up but don't know how fair they can be in such a small country like Ireland. Have a contract for next - not my own hours for next year in a school over a two hour round trip commute but principal and staff are wonderful and more fair from my experience subbing there before.


  • #17
    bobbyss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,263 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    Snapgal wrote:
    An independent interview board needs to be set up but don't know how fair they can be in such a small country like Ireland.

    I've enjoyed watching the PAC at work. They enquire about the running of public bodies especially their finances. Recently the EPA was up before it and they were impressive in dealing with the committee's exacting questions. Most of the bodies that I have watched are thorough in their responses although I do recall some senior Gardai struggle when they were up. It's an interesting exercise in public accountability.

    According to its own website the PAC reported a 'failure of governance' on the part of the KWETB regarding its financial auditing. Quite damming. Don't know if there were any resignations.

    What would they make of ETBs interview processes if they could get their teeth into them!


  • #18
    ethical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭ethical


    The same sh1t is seen in certain ETBs but unfortunately the establishment are not for examining them.There are a few people (on full gold plated pensions) hoovering up expenses at an alarming rate and going through with the charade of spending days and sometimes weeks interviewing and collecting expenses to the detriment of candidates who do not know the system.As I've said many times before if thes 'UNTOUCHABLES' want to give something back to an education system that gave them so much ,let them do it for free.Have they ever thought of their consequences,how many teachers have had suicidal thoughts after spending an amount of money and time filling in application forms that will not get anywhere.Just think about it for 1 minute! Unfortunately the 'I'll scratch your back if you lick my hole ' brigade know they are safe .No one wants to fight for teachers rights,the media is totally anti-teacher and the fat cat b*stards know this.Paschal,please hold an enquiry into the waste of money in the ETB system and you will realise quite huge savings which can be put to better use than lining some fatcat's shroud.Why not use the 'saved money' to make psychology etc test available for students who are on a never ending waiting list for services badly needed and unfortunately will never happen before they leave the system.Action needed now!!!!


  • #19
    Teacher0101
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭Teacher0101


    Well put. panel of old ETB principals grabbing all expenses possible. Corrupt as ****.


  • #20
    Rodar08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭Rodar08


    Snapgal wrote: »
    My dealings with job interviews with majority of principals and BOMs has been that they are so corrupt especially in rural Ireland. Left a permanent position over 5 years ago to relocate home and still job searching.My subjects are so called "in demand" subjects - gaeilge and MFL.I have over 16 years experience, done lots of extra curricular and co curricular activities to promote my subjects , got on well with staff, put myself forward on committees to help promote the school, do after school/weekends CPD, have examined for SEC and last year five of my LC hons class students got H1s - still not good enough!! Two instances I know for sure where I didn't get back to two schools due to nepotism. An independent interview board needs to be set up but don't know how fair they can be in such a small country like Ireland. Have a contract for next - not my own hours for next year in a school over a two hour round trip commute but principal and staff are wonderful and more fair from my experience subbing there before.


    Not to put the cat among the pigeons but did anybody read the interesting comment someone wrote on VFT the other day? That principals and ETBs etc have been ‘advised’ to hire NQT’s over experienced teachers. The poster said it was an unwritten rule called “Newman”? I don’t know what that’s about but by god if it’s true ..

    I’m currently dealing with yet another rejection after interview and I have 13 years experience. My story is much like you Snapgal .. volunteered, big part of school life, tried my best and I’m a great teacher. I’m not settling with the worthless feedback they normally give this time. Without completely blackening my name and chances for future employment (it’s so tempting though to say eff this and blow the lid on all this ****) I’m trying my best to get some answers. I know it’s unlikely I’ll get any but at the very least I might make a couple of people feel red faced or uncomfortable. I’m spitting feathers and someone is going to have to answer my questions this time.


  • #21
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Rodar08 wrote: »
    Not to put the cat among the pigeons but did anybody read the interesting comment someone wrote on VFT the other day? That principals and ETBs etc have been ‘advised’ to hire NQT’s over experienced teachers. The poster said it was an unwritten rule called “Newman”? I don’t know what that’s about but by god if it’s true ..

    The question is, who is doing the advising?


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  • #22
    Rodar08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭Rodar08


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    The question is, who is doing the advising?

    Yeah Rainbowtrout, who indeed but it seemed to be legit enough? The poster said a principal told her himself. Ugh, I dunno. Just read that other thread now about etb application form this year. The corruption is astounding. It makes me want to throw in the towel. I’ll
    Go back to subbing this year and luckily my principal will give me work. I actually have a PRPT this year until 31/08 which just makes me more ill at the thought of facing my colleagues having not even made the panel. An NQT got one of the posts. All of this is humiliating and demoralising.


  • #23
    Teacher0101
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭Teacher0101


    VECs want to save money on everything. I work in a VEC school, and ancillary staff, bus companies, books etc have all been cut to save money. VECs probably want to look great to the Minister of Ed, and to get patronage of new schools by showing they can save money. More experienced teacher = higher up the pay scale. It's not going to be written down anywhere, but of course it goes on.


  • #24
    CraftySue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 289 ✭✭CraftySue


    Rodar08 wrote: »
    Not to put the cat among the pigeons but did anybody read the interesting comment someone wrote on VFT the other day? That principals and ETBs etc have been ‘advised’ to hire NQT’s over experienced teachers. The poster said it was an unwritten rule called “Newman”? I don’t know what that’s about but by god if it’s true ..

    Rainbowtrout, I was looking to find this post on VFT, but couldn't find it, just wondering might you have a link to it?


  • #25
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    CraftySue wrote: »
    Rainbowtrout, I was looking to find this post on VFT, but couldn't find it, just wondering might you have a link to it?

    I don't I'm afraid. I stopped following VFT over a year ago because I couldn't cope with the amount of idiots on it too lazy to do their own work.


  • #26
    Rodar08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭Rodar08


    CraftySue wrote: »
    Rainbowtrout, I was looking to find this post on VFT, but couldn't find it, just wondering might you have a link to it?


    It’s a post about Garda vetting. Search that and it was posted on Thursday 10am. It’s a comment under that post


  • #27
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,264 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I'm not sure VFT is the healthiest of places to hang out. Lots of wild rumours fly about there.
    Do people seriously believe there is a named 'Newman' rule that Principals have been told to employ NQTs over experienced people, leaving themselves open to all sorts of legal action?
    And all the ETB Principals in the country are in on this?


  • #28
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    spurious wrote: »
    I'm not sure VFT is the healthiest of places to hang out. Lots of wild rumours fly about there.
    Do people seriously believe there is a named 'Newman' rule that Principals have been told to employ NQTs over experienced people, leaving themselves open to all sorts of legal action?
    And all the ETB Principals in the country are in on this?

    But what legal action can teachers take? Very hard to prove you have been screwed out of a job you should have got. Marking schemes for interviews can be tailored to suit any candidate. And most teachers will not take it further for fear they will be blacklisted and not be able to get a job anywhere in that region. Lots of the same people sitting on these boards.


  • #29
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,264 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Age discrimination?
    If people genuinely believe there is this conspiracy, get the unions on to it.
    Unless of course they are in on it too.

    How about an investigative TV programme? Surely parents would have a vested interest in their children having the best teachers work with them?

    I am not saying there are not shady practices by some interview boards (and by no means exclusively ETBs) but the notion of a countrywide secret policy is really daft.


  • #30
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    Whatever about the level of dodgy practices I'm afraid using VFT as a source doesn't help anyone's case.

    It's quite astonishing the number of absolute idiots on it who blithely post advice which is completely wrong. Many of them have been corrected many times but return the next day to offer further BS.

    I despair that some of these people are standing in front of classrooms.


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  • #31
    Rodar08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭Rodar08


    spurious wrote: »
    I'm not sure VFT is the healthiest of places to hang out. Lots of wild rumours fly about there.
    Do people seriously believe there is a named 'Newman' rule that Principals have been told to employ NQTs over experienced people, leaving themselves open to all sorts of legal action?
    And all the ETB Principals in the country are in on this?


    When you’re in my situation long enough and have experienced the absolute humiliation, demoralisation, degradation I have year after year as recent as last week then yes, you’ll begin to believe things like this are happening because employment law does not seem to exist when hiring teachers. It’s abhorrent how some are being treated. Blatant discrimination and all sorts is happening so why not the Newman rule? and they just get away with it because god forbid the unemployed teacher speak out... Good guck in ever hoping to teach a day in their life again to the unemployed teacher who does!


  • #32
    Rodar08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭Rodar08


    spurious wrote: »
    Age discrimination?
    If people genuinely believe there is this conspiracy, get the unions on to it.
    Unless of course they are in on it too.

    How about an investigative TV programme? Surely parents would have a vested interest in their children having the best teachers work with them?

    I am not saying there are not shady practices by some interview boards (and by no means exclusively ETBs) but the notion of a countrywide secret policy is really daft.


    Casual part time sub teachers can not join TUI without a contract. No representation available for any sub teachers working in ETBs.


  • #33
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    The Newman thing does sound a bit fat fetched to be honest, though have noticed loads of nqts on VTF saying they’ve jobs ( and some with full hours) for this September. By contrast a lot of people on there saying they’ve ten or fifteen years experience ( some wanting to move to their home county) and have done numerous interviews this summer and gotten no where. Still think there are plenty of teachers around to fill jobs( not in subject shortage areas) but colleges still keep churning out graduates. Teaching is not a career to recommend to anyone.


  • #34
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    I have heard the same from management in my former ETB, though not with any specific title like "Newman". I was present during a discussion between several principals where it was said, and a friend who became a DP told me the same. I was sceptical of it being likely so I started a thread here before wondering about whether such a thing was possible, or of any benefit to the ETB, but there were no replies.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99387105

    I have also been told by a different principal in that ETB that they choose NQTs for their new school because they are "easier to mould". This was said without a bother, as if it was perfectly natural and acceptable. In that case no mention was made of finances and personally I think this is the more likely scenario of why many new ETB schools had a disproportionate number of NQTs. Of course the same ETB is now lucky to get anyone to work in their schools, and are forced to take on unqualified staff. How things change.


  • #35
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    It could be some corruption of this view https://www.thejournal.ie/graduate-teacher-retired-teachers-2926232-Aug2016/
    Although the above has mostly to do with the state exams but similar reasons might follow.
    The advantages of hiring junior over senior are many (from a financial perspective)
      ✓Get all the junior nqt teachers in so they can be fully registered. They'll get hooked in the machine before they can see sense and emigrate. ✓Prevent senior teachers at getting another increment if they don't get the magic 600 hours. ✓Hopefully kick senior teachers into new pension scheme if they've a break of 26weeks. ✓Lower time worked means smaller pension to pay out as the new scheme is based on average time worked. ✓Newer teachers less likely to know their rights and be part of a union. ✓Bit More likely to not have a family so will put in the hours after school to impress. ✓Bottom of increment scale so again saving a fortune.


  • #36
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    spurious wrote: »
    Age discrimination?
    If people genuinely believe there is this conspiracy, get the unions on to it.
    Unless of course they are in on it too.

    How about an investigative TV programme? Surely parents would have a vested interest in their children having the best teachers work with them?

    I am not saying there are not shady practices by some interview boards (and by no means exclusively ETBs) but the notion of a countrywide secret policy is really daft.

    Age discrimination is very hard to prove on an individual level. But I suppose statistically if everyone took part in a survey then unions might be able to highlight it for a week or two.

    As regards parents caring spurious, I think we can take it as a given that parents only care for a brief moment. Proof of this is the annual school books/uniform schlock which seems like news to most of the population.

    It won't be until principals take a stand and ring parents to collect their kids when there's no primary sub. Parents don't really care as long as the kids are in school being 'minded' (shur they'll catch up when the teacher come back). Has sending students home ever happened?

    Invariably what happens is that the kids are split into other classes or the teacher with the few kids with additional needs has to pick up the slack. Not ideal but from a department perspective it works a treat.

    Actually a lot of nqt's get the first year no problem but then the churn begins again and they wonder what they did wrong.

    Don't even bother asking for feedback after interviews. Count yourself lucky if they even give you a pfo.

    Not long to go till 2025 though when the young primary school population starts to decline. www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-population-to-peak-at-highest-level-since-1980s-1.3203771%3fmode=amp
    Things gonna get worse looking for jobs then.

    People in the department usually have a twenty-thirty year plan as opposed to worrying about the little things now.

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Unless you know someone :pac:


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  • #37
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Chris Unimportant Bargain wrote: »
    I have heard the same from management in my former ETB, though not with any specific title like "Newman". I was present during a discussion between several principals where it was said, and a friend who became a DP told me the same.


    I have also been told by a different principal in that ETB that they choose NQTs for their new school because they are "easier to mould". This was said without a bother, as if it was perfectly natural and acceptable. In that case no mention was made of finances and personally I think this is the more likely scenario of why many new ETB schools had a disproportionate number of NQTs. Of course the same ETB is now lucky to get anyone to work in their schools, and are forced to take on unqualified staff. How things change.


    When Rodar posted this the other day I suspected that it's casually become known as that and started out as the 'new man rule'; hire NQTs before experience.

    It might not be an official rule countrywide, but appears to be a common practice that is carried out unofficially on a large scale.

    And I would take easier to mould as 'we can get them to do whatever they want because they are new, keen to impress, have no security and don't know their rights'.


  • #38
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    When Rodar posted this the other day I suspected that it's casually become known as that and started out as the 'new man rule'; hire NQTs before experience.

    It might not be an official rule countrywide, but appears to be a common practice that is carried out unofficially on a large scale.

    And I would take easier to mould as 'we can get them to do whatever they want because they are new, keen to impress, have no security and don't know their rights'.

    If true, that won’t be good for education. All the experience of experienced teachers lost. Seems to be the pattern in UK though, used to follow TES forum in UK before and loads of teachers were being replaced by new hires.


  • #39
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Blaizes wrote: »
    If true, that won’t be good for education. All the experience of experienced teachers lost. Seems to be the pattern in UK though, used to follow TES forum in UK before and loads of teachers were being replaced by new hires.

    What the UK do we seem to copy blindly.


  • #40
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    What the UK do we seem to copy blindly.

    Yip, seems to be the case.


  • #41
    TheDriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,577 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I've been following this thread with interest.
    I concur that VFT can be very much wildcat statements with little truth behind it. I am also concerned with the wild statements such as "I'd estimate that 90% of schools have appointed someone on the basis of nepotism, favoritism or other unfair reason". There appears to be no basis or research for this. Imagine if someone came on the news and said 90% of teachers are crap, there would be uproar. I'm sure there are schools, like every organisation, that has nepotism but its not as widespread as the OP wants us to believe.

    Regarding the Newman rule: Never ever heard of it. No one has ever told me who i should be hiring except to get the best people. Try sitting on interview panels, you would realise the very very varied levels of talent that applies for jobs.

    Experience: I do find that a lot of teachers with experience seem to base their interviews solely on this. But that doesn't make them the best person for the job.

    I find some people do get annoyed at me or the school as to why they didn't get the job. And they usually find it difficult to understand that the best person got the job, which wasn't them.

    I'm sure I'll get the whip lashed at me but every principal I know wants to best people for the job and have no interest in nepotism or getting NQTs for the sake of it or anything like that.


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  • #42
    Snapgal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Snapgal


    Blaizes wrote: »
    The Newman thing does sound a bit fat fetched to be honest, though have noticed loads of nqts on VTF saying they’ve jobs ( and some with full hours) for this September. By contrast a lot of people on there saying they’ve ten or fifteen years experience ( some wanting to move to their home county) and have done numerous interviews this summer and gotten no where. Still think there are plenty of teachers around to fill jobs( not in subject shortage areas) but colleges still keep churning out graduates. Teaching is not a career to recommend to anyone.

    Yes, after 16 years experience teaching Gaeilge and MFL and 5 years relocating home offered nothing but maternity contracts and one instance in a school where I did not get back due to parochial politics I have decided to leave teacher looking into the option of working outside of teaching. Offered another maternity contract from local ETB after interview but am so sick at this stage now after 5 years that am only good enough for few months subbing.I am very upset over this as I have dedicated nearly half my life both within and outside the classroom.I know I am a good teacher as students have told me and management and have produced countless H1s and A1s over my 16 years teaching leading students to scholarships . Last few instances of interviews I asked for feedback after interview and am only given scores - full marks for qualifications and experience. Went down in suitability. I asked what exactly is suitability and given no response so I don't know where exactly I can improve. I have done lots of extra curricular and spent nearly 500 euro on interview preparation but so sick of feeling humiliated and dejected the last few years that am done with teaching.


  • #43
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    Snapgal wrote: »
    Yes, after 16 years experience teaching Gaeilge and MFL and 5 years relocating home offered nothing but maternity contracts and one instance in a school where I did not get back due to parochial politics I have decided to leave teacher looking into the option of working outside of teaching. Offered another maternity contract from local ETB after interview but am so sick at this stage now after 5 years that am only good enough for few months subbing.I am very upset over this as I have dedicated nearly half my life both within and outside the classroom.I know I am a good teacher as students have told me and management and have produced countless H1s and A1s over my 16 years teaching leading students to scholarships . Last few instances of interviews I asked for feedback after interview and am only given scores - full marks for qualifications and experience. Went down in suitability. I asked what exactly is suitability and given no response so I don't know where exactly I can improve. I have done lots of extra curricular and spent nearly 500 euro on interview preparation but so sick of feeling humiliated and dejected the last few years that am done with teaching.

    I am so sorry and sad to read this post. It is awful for you being treated like this. It seems like a teacher has to be a singing and dancing circus performer on top of God knows what else to get a job. If it’s any consolation you are not alone there are loads of teachers on boards and vtf with years of experience not getting proper jobs. The suitability ranking sounds like very murky water tbh, love to see on what basis that is scored.

    I thought Gaeilge and MFL were subjects in demand. You hear of schools not being able to get Irish teachers. What about Gael Scoils? If you got into one even on a maternity leave surely a job would come up for you. Don’t forget maternity leave also counts towards CID as far as I know.

    If you love teaching ( and you sound like a very good and dedicated teacher) I don’t know that you should walk away, even though I get that you are thoroughly fed up. I taught for eight years then got married had kids and gave up( due to being fed up with maternity leave after maternity leave and rounds of job interviews every summer) I went back subbing this year, thought about throwing in it again, but actually really enjoyed it. Am resigned to never getting a CID now and don’t care if I have constant subbing, that’s how I feel at the moment anyway. I don’t apply for jobs unless they are within a certain distance and have only attended one interview this summer, the one job I’ve applied for so far ( didn’t get it) I’m on the old scale as well and if Newman is true I’m screwed and realise this ( so really hope it is not )

    Another thing maybe you could take a year out to teach abroad, fresh horizons and new perspectives. You teach MFL there are plenty of international schools you could work at. As I say I don’t know that you should throw it all in unless you have a new area / career that you think will really work for you. I’m not saying you haven’t but maybe leaving completely isn’t right for you unless you do grinds, career guidance, go into SEN area, youth work etc. Or maybe you have a great plan that will enthuse you and bring you back to life and give you more hope again and if so that is great.

    I wish you well and maybe others here can offer you solid advice, plenty of teachers have been and are in similar boats and are very understanding.Still so disappointing I know. Recruitment system seems to be all over the place.

    Very best wishes to you.


  • #44
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    It’s strange to see how ‘pro establishment’ certain posters have become round here having not previously been shy to criticize the powers that be .Im wondering if this is ‘because’ or ‘why’ they got the ‘perks’ .


  • #45
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    2011abc wrote: »
    It’s strange to see how ‘pro establishment’ certain posters have become round here having not previously been shy to criticize the powers that be .Im wondering if this is ‘because’ or ‘why’ they got the ‘perks’ .

    I don’t know if that post is directed at me or not but I am pro nothing. The recruitment system is laughable, every teacher should do what is best for themselves. If a better job opportunity comes my way I’ll take it. Perks in teaching you’ve got to be joking waiting for the phone to ring to get work. The kids make the teaching worthwhile though, ultimately it’s about them. Hope that answers your sarky comment.


  • #46
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Of course it wasn’t addressed at you .


  • #47
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    Ok let’s just forget about it. Recruitment system is all messed up though even if people deny it is. Why would a good teacher like snap girl not have a job by now if it wasn’t. Something has to be wrong but tbh seems to be this way for years, dunno if it’ll ever change. Over and out.


  • #48
    slipperyox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    If everyone agreed that there is nothing untoward in the hiring system.

    Then nobody would mind if a completely detached external body did the hiring?


  • #49
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Completely detached from ?: FF/FG/the management( principal’s niece syndrome /GAA/ The Church / The local ’loud’ parents ?etc etc In this country we’re caught between the rock and hard place if ETBs and church controlled schools .


  • #50
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    slipperyox wrote: »
    If everyone agreed that there is nothing untoward in the hiring system.

    Then nobody would mind if a completely detached external body did the hiring?

    I certainly wouldn't want to be interviewed by someone outside the school context, how would they know about the needs of the job?The Teaching Council and Medmark make a hames of things as is.


  • #51
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    2011abc wrote: »
    Completely detached from ?: FF/FG/the management( principal’s niece syndrome /GAA/ The Church / The local ’loud’ parents ?etc etc In this country we’re caught between the rock and hard place if ETBs and church controlled schools .

    I assume slipperyox was referring to a system whereby the Dept of Education or the teaching council etc would run a centralised system for hiring teachers, so it wouldn't involve the local priest, nun, county councillor etc.

    You could easily have a system where schools/ETBs submit their vacancies to the Dept each May (or whenever). Have a regionalised set of interviews - Cork, Galway, Athlone, Limerick, Dublin, Kilkenny etc. Teachers could indicate a radius in which they are willing to travel or tick off a list of counties, also options for willing to teach through Irish, work on the islands etc. Essentially set up panels and fill jobs as they arise.


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