Problems with School Principals & Appointments

Rodar08

spurious wrote: »

Age discrimination?
If people genuinely believe there is this conspiracy, get the unions on to it.
Unless of course they are in on it too.

How about an investigative TV programme? Surely parents would have a vested interest in their children having the best teachers work with them?

I am not saying there are not shady practices by some interview boards (and by no means exclusively ETBs) but the notion of a countrywide secret policy is really daft.

Casual part time sub teachers can not join TUI without a contract. No representation available for any sub teachers working in ETBs.

Blaizes

The Newman thing does sound a bit fat fetched to be honest, though have noticed loads of nqts on VTF saying they’ve jobs ( and some with full hours) for this September. By contrast a lot of people on there saying they’ve ten or fifteen years experience ( some wanting to move to their home county) and have done numerous interviews this summer and gotten no where. Still think there are plenty of teachers around to fill jobs( not in subject shortage areas) but colleges still keep churning out graduates. Teaching is not a career to recommend to anyone.

r93kaey5p2izun

I have heard the same from management in my former ETB, though not with any specific title like "Newman". I was present during a discussion between several principals where it was said, and a friend who became a DP told me the same. I was sceptical of it being likely so I started a thread here before wondering about whether such a thing was possible, or of any benefit to the ETB, but there were no replies.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99387105

I have also been told by a different principal in that ETB that they choose NQTs for their new school because they are "easier to mould". This was said without a bother, as if it was perfectly natural and acceptable. In that case no mention was made of finances and personally I think this is the more likely scenario of why many new ETB schools had a disproportionate number of NQTs. Of course the same ETB is now lucky to get anyone to work in their schools, and are forced to take on unqualified staff. How things change.

evolving_doors

It could be some corruption of this view https://www.thejournal.ie/graduate-teacher-retired-teachers-2926232-Aug2016/
Although the above has mostly to do with the state exams but similar reasons might follow.
The advantages of hiring junior over senior are many (from a financial perspective)

✓Get all the junior nqt teachers in so they can be fully registered. They'll get hooked in the machine before they can see sense and emigrate. ✓Prevent senior teachers at getting another increment if they don't get the magic 600 hours. ✓Hopefully kick senior teachers into new pension scheme if they've a break of 26weeks. ✓Lower time worked means smaller pension to pay out as the new scheme is based on average time worked. ✓Newer teachers less likely to know their rights and be part of a union. ✓Bit More likely to not have a family so will put in the hours after school to impress. ✓Bottom of increment scale so again saving a fortune.

evolving_doors

spurious wrote: »

Age discrimination?
If people genuinely believe there is this conspiracy, get the unions on to it.
Unless of course they are in on it too.

How about an investigative TV programme? Surely parents would have a vested interest in their children having the best teachers work with them?

I am not saying there are not shady practices by some interview boards (and by no means exclusively ETBs) but the notion of a countrywide secret policy is really daft.

Age discrimination is very hard to prove on an individual level. But I suppose statistically if everyone took part in a survey then unions might be able to highlight it for a week or two.

As regards parents caring spurious, I think we can take it as a given that parents only care for a brief moment. Proof of this is the annual school books/uniform schlock which seems like news to most of the population.

It won't be until principals take a stand and ring parents to collect their kids when there's no primary sub. Parents don't really care as long as the kids are in school being 'minded' (shur they'll catch up when the teacher come back). Has sending students home ever happened?

Invariably what happens is that the kids are split into other classes or the teacher with the few kids with additional needs has to pick up the slack. Not ideal but from a department perspective it works a treat.

Actually a lot of nqt's get the first year no problem but then the churn begins again and they wonder what they did wrong.

Don't even bother asking for feedback after interviews. Count yourself lucky if they even give you a pfo.

Not long to go till 2025 though when the young primary school population starts to decline. www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-population-to-peak-at-highest-level-since-1980s-1.3203771%3fmode=amp
Things gonna get worse looking for jobs then.

People in the department usually have a twenty-thirty year plan as opposed to worrying about the little things now.

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Unless you know someone :pac:

rainbowtrout

Chris Unimportant Bargain wrote: »

I have heard the same from management in my former ETB, though not with any specific title like "Newman". I was present during a discussion between several principals where it was said, and a friend who became a DP told me the same.


I have also been told by a different principal in that ETB that they choose NQTs for their new school because they are "easier to mould". This was said without a bother, as if it was perfectly natural and acceptable. In that case no mention was made of finances and personally I think this is the more likely scenario of why many new ETB schools had a disproportionate number of NQTs. Of course the same ETB is now lucky to get anyone to work in their schools, and are forced to take on unqualified staff. How things change.

When Rodar posted this the other day I suspected that it's casually become known as that and started out as the 'new man rule'; hire NQTs before experience.

It might not be an official rule countrywide, but appears to be a common practice that is carried out unofficially on a large scale.

And I would take easier to mould as 'we can get them to do whatever they want because they are new, keen to impress, have no security and don't know their rights'.

Blaizes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

When Rodar posted this the other day I suspected that it's casually become known as that and started out as the 'new man rule'; hire NQTs before experience.

It might not be an official rule countrywide, but appears to be a common practice that is carried out unofficially on a large scale.

And I would take easier to mould as 'we can get them to do whatever they want because they are new, keen to impress, have no security and don't know their rights'.

If true, that won’t be good for education. All the experience of experienced teachers lost. Seems to be the pattern in UK though, used to follow TES forum in UK before and loads of teachers were being replaced by new hires.

rainbowtrout

Blaizes wrote: »

If true, that won’t be good for education. All the experience of experienced teachers lost. Seems to be the pattern in UK though, used to follow TES forum in UK before and loads of teachers were being replaced by new hires.

What the UK do we seem to copy blindly.

Blaizes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What the UK do we seem to copy blindly.

Yip, seems to be the case.

TheDriver

I've been following this thread with interest.
I concur that VFT can be very much wildcat statements with little truth behind it. I am also concerned with the wild statements such as "I'd estimate that 90% of schools have appointed someone on the basis of nepotism, favoritism or other unfair reason". There appears to be no basis or research for this. Imagine if someone came on the news and said 90% of teachers are crap, there would be uproar. I'm sure there are schools, like every organisation, that has nepotism but its not as widespread as the OP wants us to believe.

Regarding the Newman rule: Never ever heard of it. No one has ever told me who i should be hiring except to get the best people. Try sitting on interview panels, you would realise the very very varied levels of talent that applies for jobs.

Experience: I do find that a lot of teachers with experience seem to base their interviews solely on this. But that doesn't make them the best person for the job.

I find some people do get annoyed at me or the school as to why they didn't get the job. And they usually find it difficult to understand that the best person got the job, which wasn't them.

I'm sure I'll get the whip lashed at me but every principal I know wants to best people for the job and have no interest in nepotism or getting NQTs for the sake of it or anything like that.

Snapgal

Blaizes wrote: »

The Newman thing does sound a bit fat fetched to be honest, though have noticed loads of nqts on VTF saying they’ve jobs ( and some with full hours) for this September. By contrast a lot of people on there saying they’ve ten or fifteen years experience ( some wanting to move to their home county) and have done numerous interviews this summer and gotten no where. Still think there are plenty of teachers around to fill jobs( not in subject shortage areas) but colleges still keep churning out graduates. Teaching is not a career to recommend to anyone.

Yes, after 16 years experience teaching Gaeilge and MFL and 5 years relocating home offered nothing but maternity contracts and one instance in a school where I did not get back due to parochial politics I have decided to leave teacher looking into the option of working outside of teaching. Offered another maternity contract from local ETB after interview but am so sick at this stage now after 5 years that am only good enough for few months subbing.I am very upset over this as I have dedicated nearly half my life both within and outside the classroom.I know I am a good teacher as students have told me and management and have produced countless H1s and A1s over my 16 years teaching leading students to scholarships . Last few instances of interviews I asked for feedback after interview and am only given scores - full marks for qualifications and experience. Went down in suitability. I asked what exactly is suitability and given no response so I don't know where exactly I can improve. I have done lots of extra curricular and spent nearly 500 euro on interview preparation but so sick of feeling humiliated and dejected the last few years that am done with teaching.

Blaizes

Snapgal wrote: »

Yes, after 16 years experience teaching Gaeilge and MFL and 5 years relocating home offered nothing but maternity contracts and one instance in a school where I did not get back due to parochial politics I have decided to leave teacher looking into the option of working outside of teaching. Offered another maternity contract from local ETB after interview but am so sick at this stage now after 5 years that am only good enough for few months subbing.I am very upset over this as I have dedicated nearly half my life both within and outside the classroom.I know I am a good teacher as students have told me and management and have produced countless H1s and A1s over my 16 years teaching leading students to scholarships . Last few instances of interviews I asked for feedback after interview and am only given scores - full marks for qualifications and experience. Went down in suitability. I asked what exactly is suitability and given no response so I don't know where exactly I can improve. I have done lots of extra curricular and spent nearly 500 euro on interview preparation but so sick of feeling humiliated and dejected the last few years that am done with teaching.

I am so sorry and sad to read this post. It is awful for you being treated like this. It seems like a teacher has to be a singing and dancing circus performer on top of God knows what else to get a job. If it’s any consolation you are not alone there are loads of teachers on boards and vtf with years of experience not getting proper jobs. The suitability ranking sounds like very murky water tbh, love to see on what basis that is scored.

I thought Gaeilge and MFL were subjects in demand. You hear of schools not being able to get Irish teachers. What about Gael Scoils? If you got into one even on a maternity leave surely a job would come up for you. Don’t forget maternity leave also counts towards CID as far as I know.

If you love teaching ( and you sound like a very good and dedicated teacher) I don’t know that you should walk away, even though I get that you are thoroughly fed up. I taught for eight years then got married had kids and gave up( due to being fed up with maternity leave after maternity leave and rounds of job interviews every summer) I went back subbing this year, thought about throwing in it again, but actually really enjoyed it. Am resigned to never getting a CID now and don’t care if I have constant subbing, that’s how I feel at the moment anyway. I don’t apply for jobs unless they are within a certain distance and have only attended one interview this summer, the one job I’ve applied for so far ( didn’t get it) I’m on the old scale as well and if Newman is true I’m screwed and realise this ( so really hope it is not )

Another thing maybe you could take a year out to teach abroad, fresh horizons and new perspectives. You teach MFL there are plenty of international schools you could work at. As I say I don’t know that you should throw it all in unless you have a new area / career that you think will really work for you. I’m not saying you haven’t but maybe leaving completely isn’t right for you unless you do grinds, career guidance, go into SEN area, youth work etc. Or maybe you have a great plan that will enthuse you and bring you back to life and give you more hope again and if so that is great.

I wish you well and maybe others here can offer you solid advice, plenty of teachers have been and are in similar boats and are very understanding.Still so disappointing I know. Recruitment system seems to be all over the place.

Very best wishes to you.

2011abc

It’s strange to see how ‘pro establishment’ certain posters have become round here having not previously been shy to criticize the powers that be .Im wondering if this is ‘because’ or ‘why’ they got the ‘perks’ .

Blaizes

2011abc wrote: »

It’s strange to see how ‘pro establishment’ certain posters have become round here having not previously been shy to criticize the powers that be .Im wondering if this is ‘because’ or ‘why’ they got the ‘perks’ .

I don’t know if that post is directed at me or not but I am pro nothing. The recruitment system is laughable, every teacher should do what is best for themselves. If a better job opportunity comes my way I’ll take it. Perks in teaching you’ve got to be joking waiting for the phone to ring to get work. The kids make the teaching worthwhile though, ultimately it’s about them. Hope that answers your sarky comment.

2011abc

Of course it wasn’t addressed at you .

Blaizes

Ok let’s just forget about it. Recruitment system is all messed up though even if people deny it is. Why would a good teacher like snap girl not have a job by now if it wasn’t. Something has to be wrong but tbh seems to be this way for years, dunno if it’ll ever change. Over and out.

slipperyox

If everyone agreed that there is nothing untoward in the hiring system.

Then nobody would mind if a completely detached external body did the hiring?

2011abc

Completely detached from ?: FF/FG/the management( principal’s niece syndrome /GAA/ The Church / The local ’loud’ parents ?etc etc In this country we’re caught between the rock and hard place if ETBs and church controlled schools .

byhookorbycrook

slipperyox wrote: »

If everyone agreed that there is nothing untoward in the hiring system.

Then nobody would mind if a completely detached external body did the hiring?

I certainly wouldn't want to be interviewed by someone outside the school context, how would they know about the needs of the job?The Teaching Council and Medmark make a hames of things as is.

rainbowtrout

2011abc wrote: »

Completely detached from ?: FF/FG/the management( principal’s niece syndrome /GAA/ The Church / The local ’loud’ parents ?etc etc In this country we’re caught between the rock and hard place if ETBs and church controlled schools .

I assume slipperyox was referring to a system whereby the Dept of Education or the teaching council etc would run a centralised system for hiring teachers, so it wouldn't involve the local priest, nun, county councillor etc.

You could easily have a system where schools/ETBs submit their vacancies to the Dept each May (or whenever). Have a regionalised set of interviews - Cork, Galway, Athlone, Limerick, Dublin, Kilkenny etc. Teachers could indicate a radius in which they are willing to travel or tick off a list of counties, also options for willing to teach through Irish, work on the islands etc. Essentially set up panels and fill jobs as they arise.

rainbowtrout

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't want to be interviewed by someone outside the school context, how would they know about the needs of the job?The Teaching Council and Medmark make a hames of things as is.

An awful lot of panels have a random county councillor type on them. I can't imagine they know anymore about teaching than someone from the teaching council.

SouthernNoir

TheDriver wrote: »

I've been following this thread with interest.
I concur that VFT can be very much wildcat statements with little truth behind it. I am also concerned with the wild statements such as "I'd estimate that 90% of schools have appointed someone on the basis of nepotism, favoritism or other unfair reason". There appears to be no basis or research for this. Imagine if someone came on the news and said 90% of teachers are crap, there would be uproar. I'm sure there are schools, like every organisation, that has nepotism but its not as widespread as the OP wants us to believe.

Regarding the Newman rule: Never ever heard of it. No one has ever told me who i should be hiring except to get the best people. Try sitting on interview panels, you would realise the very very varied levels of talent that applies for jobs.

Experience: I do find that a lot of teachers with experience seem to base their interviews solely on this. But that doesn't make them the best person for the job.

I find some people do get annoyed at me or the school as to why they didn't get the job. And they usually find it difficult to understand that the best person got the job, which wasn't them.

I'm sure I'll get the whip lashed at me but every principal I know wants to best people for the job and have no interest in nepotism or getting NQTs for the sake of it or anything like that.

Apologies for only replying to this now. The "wild statement" you refer to in my first post is a logical and fair estimate based on my knowledge and experience of Primary Schools in my area. I live in a border region, we have many teachers in local schools who have qualified in the UK and who have received permanent positions, ahead of teachers who qualified in the South. UK teachers are not qualified to teach Irish.

To reiterate, I didn't say that 90% of appointments are unfair, but that 90% of schools have done this at least once. To use your analogy, if someone came on the news and said that 90% of teachers have delivered a crap lesson, I don't think that is as unreasonable as you make out.

On your point about experience. I agree that many people with experience are probably too reliant on it. But that doesn't negate the importance of experience. I have seen interview marking schemes which allocate precisely nothing for experience. So as an applicant, having 30 years behind you is no better than being newly qualified. That is plainly ridiculous. Experience should count for something.

I've spoken to the INTO about this issue. I was told that they know from the amount of calls they get on this topic that unfair appointment practices are happening all around the country. You only have to read the posts above to see that not every Principal is only interested in the best person for the job.

spurious

SouthernNoir wrote: »

I've spoken to the INTO about this issue. I was told that they know from the amount of calls they get on this topic that unfair appointment practices are happening all around the country. You only have to read the posts above to see that not every Principal is only interested in the best person for the job.

Did they say what they are doing to try stop it?

SouthernNoir

spurious wrote: »

Did they say what they are doing to try stop it?

No. Lady I spoke to went on to say that due to the relevant circular (can't recall the number) it's next to impossible to prove a case. As I alluded to in my opening post, I think the INTO and secondary unions are not willing to do anything because they represent the principals too.

ethical

Teaching Unions know full well that this crap is going on but will never do anything about it! We are close to a few whistleblowers away from blowing the whole thing wide open (like the Gardaí) but I doubt if it will ever happen as 1) it costs money,a lot of money!! and 2) who wants to be a martyr and put their own life on hold/destroy their career as this is whats will happen if its pursued on its own.
The only way to get anywhere is to bombard the Minister and the Unions,strength in numbers etc. otherwise you are peeing against a hurricance in dear old Ireland.I have seen a school brought to its knees by a selection that was not suitable and then (a la the priests) the problem was moved on only to happen again in the next school................it wasnt a case of lessons not being learned (pardon the pun) but more a two fingers up to the school and local community (because we are a big body and will do what we like as we ve always done and fcuk you!).Most Union reps nowadays are pretty poor and only play the party line and will not delve into something thats not written in black and white.This was brought home to me when a certain Union official came to our school a few yrs ago and (re the above problem) told us we would be scattered around the region (those lucky enough to have permanent positions) and the others would unfortunately head for the dole queue,the official was hell bent on telling us the school would close ! We ate her alive and sent her back to the BigSmoke ..........and our school stayed open because we fought the "carry on" with parent and community support, eventhough we were wounded but we survived and are growing now ,no thanks to Unions or the Sh1ts aligned to the ETB.