Irish rail in a United Ireland

Thrashssacre · 15-02-2019 4:34pm #1

A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
Population:
Dublin: 565,000
Navan: 30,173
Virginia: 2,648
Cavan: 10,914
Clones: 1,680
Omagh: 21,297
Strabane: 17,670
Derry: 83,652

Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

*possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

is_that_so · 15-02-2019 4:40pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
Population:
Dublin: 565,000
Navan: 30,173
Virginia: 2,648
Cavan: 10,914
Clones: 1,680
Omagh: 21,297
Strabane: 17,670
Derry: 83,652

Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

*possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.

Thrashssacre · 15-02-2019 4:43pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Thrashssacre wrote: »

A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
Population:
Dublin: 565,000
Navan: 30,173
Virginia: 2,648
Cavan: 10,914
Clones: 1,680
Omagh: 21,297
Strabane: 17,670
Derry: 83,652

Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

*possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.

It'd be rediculously slow that way I was more thinking about continuing the m3 parkway line to make my theoretical mainline, was due to head out to navan anyways at least.

dermo888 · 15-02-2019 5:49pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
Population:
Dublin: 565,000
Navan: 30,173
Virginia: 2,648
Cavan: 10,914
Clones: 1,680
Omagh: 21,297
Strabane: 17,670
Derry: 83,652

Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

*possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

I'd call it the 'Unification Railway'.

But YES - its a damned good idea. Double track and electrified as far as Navan.

vapor trails · 15-02-2019 5:52pm

If only it could be routed nearer Ratoath rather than Dunshaughlin it would probably serve the Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne trio a bit better. There is the guts of 25,000 in those 3 towns. Dunshaughlin is the smallest of the 3 but is taking the bulk of the development now.

Stephen15 · 15-02-2019 6:42pm

is_that_so wrote: »

AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.

Navan is linked to Drogheda and the Belfast line it's just only used by Tara Mines freight trains and no passengers run on it. They could build a station there but any train journey would end up taking longer than the bus via the Northern Line.

markpb · 15-02-2019 11:37pm

The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

L1011 · 15-02-2019 11:47pm

markpb wrote: »

The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

In this hypothetical situation there would be EU money to spend like kids in a sweetshop on anything to increase the active labour force in NI. Long term a rebuild of the GNR route to Derry - well, something similar - would be done I think. Not sure about Navan up though

dermo888 · 16-02-2019 10:10am

markpb wrote: »

The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

We bailed out bankrupt Banks, and have paid much of that back and are recovering nicely. We've shown that we are capable, competent and responsible, so we can bail out a bankrupt country.

The fascist scum that ran Northern Ireland need to be rounded up and forced to build a railway from Dublin to Derry. We put our skangers on minimum wage and their spides on minimum wage and get it built Burma Siam style. The heroin addicts can work for their methadone.

Tugann Saothar Saoirse

El Tarangu · 16-02-2019 10:45am

dermo888 wrote: »

We bailed out bankrupt Banks, and have paid much of that back and are recovering nicely.

Northern Ireland costs about the equivalent of a new bank bailout every four years, ad infinitum. Think of how this might impact capital expenditure.

dermo888 wrote: »

The fascist scum that ran Northern Ireland need to be rounded up and forced to build a railway from Dublin to Derry. We put our skangers on minimum wage and their spides on minimum wage and get it built Burma Siam style. The heroin addicts can work for their methadone.

Tugann Saothar Saoirse

Righto...

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 10:49am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
Population:
Dublin: 565,000
Navan: 30,173
Virginia: 2,648
Cavan: 10,914
Clones: 1,680
Omagh: 21,297
Strabane: 17,670
Derry: 83,652

Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

*possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

I'd build it to Letterkenny instead and build a Junction at Strabane for a line to Derry. That route is also a bit long I'd look at going via Navan, kingscourt, Carrickmacross, castleblaney, Monaghan, Omagh, Newtownsteward, Strabane, Raphoe and Letterkenny.

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 10:56am

vapor trails wrote: »

If only it could be routed nearer Ratoath rather than Dunshaughlin it would probably serve the Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne trio a bit better. There is the guts of 25,000 in those 3 towns. Dunshaughlin is the smallest of the 3 but is taking the bulk of the development now.

I agree, I think it would be better to extend the M3 line to Ratoath and Ashbounre with Dart instead of going to Maynooth with Dart. The extra money saved by not building to Navan and extending Dart to Maynooth could be invested into the Northern line for a few loops at least and open Navan - Drogheada to passengers. I think this will offer a lot more rail services and improvements overall for the same money.

dermo888 · 16-02-2019 12:54pm

IE 222 wrote: »

I agree, I think it would be better to extend the M3 line to Ratoath and Ashbounre with Dart instead of going to Maynooth with Dart. The extra money saved by not building to Navan and extending Dart to Maynooth could be invested into the Northern line for a few loops at least and open Navan - Drogheada to passengers. I think this will offer a lot more rail services and improvements overall for the same money.

Erm......I thought I was the crazy one around here, but thats an even worse idea than mine!

L1011 · 16-02-2019 1:15pm

IE 222 wrote: »

I agree, I think it would be better to extend the M3 line to Ratoath and Ashbounre with Dart instead of going to Maynooth with Dart. The extra money saved by not building to Navan and extending Dart to Maynooth could be invested into the Northern line for a few loops at least and open Navan - Drogheada to passengers. I think this will offer a lot more rail services and improvements overall for the same money.

You are massively overestimating the cost of electrification and/or underestimating the cost of new lines

Stephen15 · 16-02-2019 1:31pm

L1011 wrote: »

You are massively overestimating the cost of electrification and/or underestimating the cost of new lines

But yet the government still has no problem forking out for motorways while our railways are suffering from decades of underinvestment

16-02-2019 1:35pm

markpb wrote: »

The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

Your comment is skewed to make NI seem like a money pit. You fail to account for the taxes raised within the region which offset the majority of the figure you quoted i.e. The cost/benefit ratio.

It not unusual for most parts of a country to be net loss areas while only a handful generate most of the taxes.

It should also be noted that there are other regions within the UK which have a much worse c/b ratio.

Avatar MIA · 16-02-2019 1:44pm

Is the figure £12b now?

That figure or anyway close to it was totally debunked, it's not a subsidy figure, but NI allocated cost including the likes of NI contributing to Trident and the like. A meaningless figure.

I now return you to our regular programme/topic.

Thrashssacre · 16-02-2019 1:55pm

The 12 billions figure isn't the big picture in a brexit UK the EU will be only too happy to see economic or perceived economic prosperity to a part of it which broke away and remained in the EU as would be the case with Northern Ireland so funding a new railway opening up new parts of the country would certainly be someone the EU would take into consideration its a very easy thing to point at and say "look at what the EU have done for x Region of the country already.... Didn't see Westminster doing that"

L1011 · 16-02-2019 2:24pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Is the figure £12b now?

That figure or anyway close to it was totally debunked, it's not a subsidy figure, but NI allocated cost including the likes of NI contributing to Trident and the like. A meaningless figure.

I now return you to our regular programme/topic.

The Sinn Fein funded report that is not based in reality is the only thing to "debunk" that. The figure is real.

NI has a tiny labour force involvement figure, in part but by no means solely down to decades of fake disability claims being signed off on. Private sector employment is tiny and falling and is now primarily in low income services roles - call centres and retail.

Public sector employment in a bloated civil service and needless duplication of facilities and services for two "communities" - sometimes three when there's a failed attempt at cross-community schooling in an area - makes up the rest. Add to that a voluntary sector where there are state funded jobs for former terrorist prisoners to be "community workers", primarily on the former UDA & UVF side

Tax income is tiny, state expenditure is massive, and we'd need - and likely get - significant EU aid in any hypothetical reunification

Avatar MIA · 16-02-2019 3:17pm

L1011 wrote: »

The Sinn Fein funded report that is not based in reality is the only thing to "debunk" that. The figure is real.

I'm not talking about the SF report. Would the IMF be a more credible source?

https://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-costings-4144760-Jul2018/

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 3:53pm

L1011 wrote: »

You are massively overestimating the cost of electrification and/or underestimating the cost of new lines

How. If the original plans were to go ahead the money is been spent im just allocating it elsewhere. What I'm suggesting is adding a new Dart route to Ashbounre and opening Navan via Drogheada on current infrastructure while also investing in the Northern Line infrastructure from the same pot. There won't be enough for quad tracking but at least 2 or 3 loops could from it.Putting Darts on the Northern line with no extra infrastructure improvements will be the death of everything above Ballbriggan.

L1011 · 16-02-2019 4:06pm

IE 222 wrote: »

How. If the original plans were to go ahead the money is been spent im just allocating it elsewhere. What I'm suggesting is adding a new Dart route to Ashbounre and opening Navan via Drogheada on current infrastructure while also investing in the Northern Line infrastructure from the same pot. There won't be enough for quad tracking but at least 2 or 3 loops could from it.Putting Darts on the Northern line with no extra infrastructure improvements will be the death of everything above Ballbriggan.

Because the cost of electrification would not come vaguely close to covering what you are thinking it would build

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 4:06pm

dermo888 wrote: »

Erm......I thought I was the crazy one around here, but thats an even worse idea than mine!

What getting junkies and "the scum" to build a line between 2 cities that are already rail connected.

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 4:12pm

L1011 wrote: »

Because the cost of electrification would not come vaguely close to covering what you are thinking it would build

I'm also using the cost of extending the line from M3 to Navan which will come back to the table in the next few years as long as there is no financial crash in the near future.

L1011 · 16-02-2019 4:32pm

IE 222 wrote: »

I'm also using the cost of extending the line from M3 to Navan which will come back to the table in the next few years as long as there is no financial crash in the near future.

And still underestimating the cost of a completely new alignment

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 4:59pm

L1011 wrote: »

And still underestimating the cost of a completely new alignment

What new alignment, to Ashbounre?

Using the money that would be spent on extending M3 to Navan and electricfing Clonsilla to Maynooth I would instead extend M3 to Ashbounre and upgrade current Navan line for passenger services (which is off good quality track in most parts) and invest the remaining money in the Northern line.

LeinsterDub · 16-02-2019 5:16pm

is_that_so wrote: »

AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.

This line is always thrown out yet its never balanced with the billions in subsidies given to roads nor the billions due to the social, economic and environmental damage caused by roads

L1011 · 16-02-2019 5:29pm

IE 222 wrote: »

What new alignment, to Ashbounre?

Using the money that would be spent on extending M3 to Navan and electricfing Clonsilla to Maynooth I would instead extend M3 to Ashbounre and upgrade current Navan line for passenger services (which is off good quality track in most parts) and invest the remaining money in the Northern line.

Yes. Reinstating an existing alignment is much cheaper than virgin territory.

There would be no "remaining money" - you'd have spent it all and lots more yet

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 5:47pm

L1011 wrote: »

Yes. Reinstating an existing alignment is much cheaper than virgin territory.

There would be no "remaining money" - you'd have spent it all and lots more yet

The proposed Navan alignment isn't exactly perfect either. There will be additional costs with some of the blunders around the M3 itself. Not saying there will 10s of millions saved but a modest amount to add some loops on the Nortern Line.

L1011 · 16-02-2019 5:56pm

IE 222 wrote: »

The proposed Navan alignment isn't exactly perfect either. There will be additional costs with some of the blunders around the M3 itself. Not saying there will 10s of millions saved but a modest amount to add some loops on the Nortern Line.

There is zero chance of it releasing enough to cover it - and zero chance it'd be cheaper either.

Plus you need to buy diesel trains for Maynooth if you don't buy Electric so that cost saving is gone.

Stephen15 · 16-02-2019 6:23pm

IE 222 wrote: »

What new alignment, to Ashbounre?

Using the money that would be spent on extending M3 to Navan and electricfing Clonsilla to Maynooth I would instead extend M3 to Ashbounre and upgrade current Navan line for passenger services (which is off good quality track in most parts) and invest the remaining money in the Northern line.

That would take too long to get to Navan if going via the already congested northern line. It could be done fairly easily but would anyone use is another question if the bus is a quicker option.

Del.Monte · 16-02-2019 7:43pm

All this is nonsense since if there was a united Ireland declared tomorrow the six counties would soon dissolve into a war zone again and the new railway would an obvious target.

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 10:35pm

L1011 wrote: »

There is zero chance of it releasing enough to cover it - and zero chance it'd be cheaper either.

Plus you need to buy diesel trains for Maynooth if you don't buy Electric so that cost saving is gone.

I disagree, there would be a considerable distance of track mileage that won't need to be built. The old Navan requires a lot of work and the alignment is by no means secure as there's been a lot of access roads, housing and industrial units built in its place as well issues with the M3 and sewer system Meath coco put in.

We already have the 2900 fleet and future trains will be bi-mode anyway.

IE 222 · 16-02-2019 10:38pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

That would take too long to get to Navan if going via the already congested northern line. It could be done fairly easily but would anyone use is another question if the bus is a quicker option.

If done properly and some investment was made for loops it should be possible to do it in 60-70mins with a few stops. There won't be any more road improvements for the Navan corridor which will hamper buses more so if it's bad now think what it will be like in 5 or 10 years time. An extra 10mins on a train would be a gift.

Jamie2k9 · 16-02-2019 10:52pm

In a United Ireland there will be no such thing as an all Ireland Irish Rail, NI Railways or even the Enterprise will not be done away with.

Stephen15 · 16-02-2019 11:22pm

IE 222 wrote: »

If done properly and some investment was made for loops it should be possible to do it in 60-70mins with a few stops. There won't be any more road improvements for the Navan corridor which will hamper buses more so if it's bad now think what it will be like in 5 or 10 years time. An extra 10mins on a train would be a gift.

And what would be the advantage of a train if the bus takes the same amount of time if not quicker. I'm all in for railway investment but not if the bus is quicker and if it is and demand is high enough a way should be looked at building a quicker railway line. The BE service from Dublin to Navan is too slow and it would be better in the absence of a railway line if the NTA issued a licence for a private bus to run along the motorway.

Stephen15 · 16-02-2019 11:39pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In a United Ireland there will be no such thing as an all Ireland Irish Rail, NI Railways or even the Enterprise will not be done away with.

One would assume if there was a United Ireland the NTA would be responsible for all public transport on the Island so I would assume that Irish Rail would take over the responsibility for running trains in the six counties and ownership of the track from NIR.

Likewise Ulsterbus will become part of Bus Eireann or some form NTA tendered bus services and Metro in Belfast will be taken over by a form of NTA tendered services, BE city services or get it's own CIE subsidiary similar to Dublin Bus.

monument · 17-02-2019 12:51am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Population:
Dublin: 565,000

Navan: 30,173

Virginia: 2,648

Cavan: 10,914

Clones: 1,680

Omagh: 21,297

Strabane: 17,670

Derry: 83,652

The urban area of Dublin city has a population of 1,173,179, excluding Dublin's satellite towns which are larger than most listed above. The 565,000 only relates to the one of the four council areas which make up the city proper.

Virginia and Clones seem to be too small to justify train stations? And is there a reason Enniskillen would not have one when towns not even half its size are on your list?

But let's look at your list without Virginia and Clones and sacrificing Cavan and a bit of a detour, and adding a bit of population and some existing tracks:

Dublin: 565,000
Navan: 30,173 (not via the northern line)
Drogheda: 40,956
Dundalk: 39,004
Newry: 26,967
Armagh: 14,749
Omagh: 21,297
Strabane: 17,670
Derry: 83,652

But then you have to start asking: What's the goal here? Because something like this might make more sense in terms of regional and island connectivity...

Derry
Strabane
Omagh
Armagh
Portadown
Dublin/Belfast line

Or if you're mainly concerned with island connectivity you do the following with low to mid-level HSR with limited stops between:

Derry
Belfast
Dublin
Dublin Airport
Limerick
Cork

monument · 17-02-2019 12:59am

Stephen15 wrote: »

One would assume if there was a United Ireland the NTA would be responsible for all public transport on the Island so I would assume that Irish Rail would take over the responsibility for running trains in the six counties and ownership of the track from NIR.

Likewise Ulsterbus will become part of Bus Eireann or some form NTA tendered bus services and Metro in Belfast will be taken over by a form of NTA tendered services, BE city services or get it's own CIE subsidiary similar to Dublin Bus.

One could be wrong to presume such things -- for example one of the possable best bets of a workable united Ireland in the short to mid term is allowing the north to remain a semi autonomous region, under Dublin instead.

In any case re-branding everything might not be the best move to ease people in and if there was a re-brand it would be better if it was new for everybody and not the North taking our brands.

Stephen15 · 17-02-2019 1:16am

monument wrote: »

One could be wrong to presume such things -- for example one of the possable best bets of a workable united Ireland in the short to mid term is allowing the north to remain a semi autonomous region, under Dublin instead.

In any case re-branding everything might not be the best move to ease people in and if there was a re-brand it would be better if it was new for everybody and not the North taking our brands.

That may be the case but the most likely way will see a United Ireland is through a referendum taking place in the north which would assume the majority of people in the north would be happy to see Dublin rule rather than London or Belfast rule.

With that being said there may be some of teething period with NIR continuing to operate before merged with IE similar to how Deutche Reichsbahn continued to operate in East Germany until 1994 before being merged into Deutche Bundesbahn to form Deutche Bahn.

monument · 17-02-2019 1:26am

Stephen15 wrote: »

That may be the case but the most likely way will see a United Ireland is through a referendum taking place in the north which would assume the majority of people in the north would be happy to see Dublin rule rather than London or Belfast rule.

With that being said there may be some of teething period with NIR continuing to operate before merged with IE similar to how Deutche Reichsbahn continued to operate in East Germany until 1994 before being merged into Deutche Bundesbahn to form Deutche Bahn.

If we're only concerned with the majority we might as well be planning for any railway to be attacked, be it the current railways or any possable new routes.

L1011 · 17-02-2019 1:54am

IE 222 wrote: »

I disagree, there would be a considerable distance of track mileage that won't need to be built. The old Navan requires a lot of work and the alignment is by no means secure as there's been a lot of access roads, housing and industrial units built in its place as well issues with the M3 and sewer system Meath coco put in.

We already have the 2900 fleet and future trains will be bi-mode anyway.

Have you any actual engineering background or are you basing your figures on blind hope?

29000s are grossly insufficient for demand now - much of the quoted figure for Maynooth line electrification is simply the units required for a 10 minute peak / 20 offpeak frequency. That doesn't go away with crayon plans to Ashbourne.

Thrashssacre · 17-02-2019 2:42am

monument wrote: »

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Population:
Dublin: 565,000

Navan: 30,173

Virginia: 2,648

Cavan: 10,914

Clones: 1,680

Omagh: 21,297

Strabane: 17,670

Derry: 83,652

The urban area of Dublin city has a population of 1,173,179, excluding Dublin's satellite towns which are larger than most listed above. The 565,000 only relates to the one of the four council areas which make up the city proper.

Virginia and Clones seem to be too small to justify train stations? And is there a reason Enniskillen would not have one when towns not even half its size are on your list?

But let's look at your list without Virginia and Clones and sacrificing Cavan and a bit of a detour, and adding a bit of population and some existing tracks:
Dublin: 565,000

Navan: 30,173 (not via the northern line)

Drogheda: 40,956

Dundalk: 39,004

Newry: 26,967

Armagh: 14,749

Omagh: 21,297

Strabane: 17,670

Derry: 83,652

But then you have to start asking: What's the goal here? Because something like this might make more sense in terms of regional and island connectivity...
Derry

Strabane

Omagh

Armagh

Portadown

Dublin/Belfast line

Or if you're mainly concerned with island connectivity you do the following with low to mid-level HSR with limited stops between:
Derry

Belfast

Dublin

Dublin Airport

Limerick

Cork

Well I don't think using the northern line would be particularly useful as the alignment doesn't leave alot to be desired in terms of speed improvement and with a rail line to navan from m3 parkway I'd bound to reamerge politically if the economy continues to do well.

Enniskillen wasn't included as it was part of a theoretical branch at cavan which would further continue to donegal.

Inter Island connectivity is the overall goal of the line with a view to having the capacity to increase as the need arises (another reason for avoiding the northern line as in a United Ireland it's only going to become busier with further business being done between Dublin and Belfast and a possibly new commuter corridor for Belfast streaching as far as drogheda)

The route was chosen as it allowed many new areas north and south to gain more rapid access to the capital, Derry which would be the 5/6 biggest city in a United ireland has abymal connections with dublin which would at that point be its captial.

Grandeeod · 17-02-2019 3:12am

Del.Monte wrote: »

All this is nonsense since if there was a united Ireland declared tomorrow the six counties would soon dissolve into a war zone again and the new railway would an obvious target.

I hear ya!:D

IE 222 · 17-02-2019 9:36am

Stephen15 wrote: »

And what would be the advantage of a train if the bus takes the same amount of time if not quicker. I'm all in for railway investment but not if the bus is quicker and if it is and demand is high enough a way should be looked at building a quicker railway line. The BE service from Dublin to Navan is too slow and it would be better in the absence of a railway line if the NTA issued a licence for a private bus to run along the motorway.

This is the type of vision that has us in the mess were in in terms of public transport. Rail lines need investment and with the right investment and scheduling it's not impossible to run a train from Navan to Dublin via Drogheada in 50mins.

The Northern line is choked now and the Maynooth line isn't far behind it as it choked at Connolly. There is scope for quad tracking on the Northern line unlike the Maynooth line. Putting Dart, Sligo, increased Longford or Mullingar services and a Navan service will cripple that line as well.

IE 222 · 17-02-2019 9:56am

L1011 wrote: »

Have you any actual engineering background or are you basing your figures on blind hope?

29000s are grossly insufficient for demand now - much of the quoted figure for Maynooth line electrification is simply the units required for a 10 minute peak / 20 offpeak frequency. That doesn't go away with crayon plans to Ashbourne.

Dart will serve the line to Clonsilla. A 15min 2900 serving beyond Clinsilla will cater the remaining demand. Demand is going to increase to Mulligar and Longford as well. Sligo will likely see more demand to. Running 2900 services between Connolly and Clonsilla non stop and letting Dart do everything in between will benefit all.

Ramming everything onto the same running lines hasn't exactly worked wonders for the Northern Line and that's before Dart is extended further north.

cgcsb · 17-02-2019 12:35pm

It's just that the existing rail network, even in Dublin is in such a horrific state, building new lines in rural areas is so far down the list of priorities. When there is a half hourly medium/high speed between Dublin and Cork/Belfast, frequent electric commuter rail in the 3 cities And Dart underground in Dublin then new lines might be on the table. At present it is not possible to travel by rail between Dublin and Belfast and arrive at either end for a 9am meeting, the journey by bus is also faster, that's the standard we're currently working with

L1011 · 17-02-2019 1:59pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Dart will serve the line to Clonsilla. A 15min 2900 serving beyond Clinsilla will cater the remaining demand. Demand is going to increase to Mulligar and Longford as well. Sligo will likely see more demand to. Running 2900 services between Connolly and Clonsilla non stop and letting Dart do everything in between will benefit all.

Ramming everything onto the same running lines hasn't exactly worked wonders for the Northern Line and that's before Dart is extended further north.

Non stop on what paths?

dowlingm · 17-02-2019 3:14pm

For me the key in a UI would be to maximize existing infrastructure and rolling stock, and to tap any EU funding available. As pointed out, reunification will be a massive economic shock so there will be huge amounts to do before any new alignments can be contemplated, and in the meantime operations needs to be maximizing things that are revenue positive not to mention politically helpful - NI will be watching closely for any sign that "their" assets are being drained off to run additional Dublin suburban service or whatnot.

Notwithstanding the nature of the transition, the EU's competition folks will be hovering to ensure a merged transport space does not end up as anti-competitive, so a quickie marriage between Translink and CIE is likely not a runner, and even where some bits merge, there will be plenty of work to do around pay, conditions, and pension liabilities.

The most obvious one to my mind is Enterprise which has been limited in the past by the necessity for North and South to jointly agree on service levels. The number of bureaucrats shuttling between Belfast and Dublin during the transition alone should fill plenty of seats.
As far as integration goes, at the minimum I think an infrastructure merger would be top of the list even if the operating companies remain, plus figuring a common set of rail rules to transition away from both sets of legacy ones. Longer term, rolling out common signal system to full ETCS might be the sort of the thing the EU would bankroll.
Before worrying about new lines to Clones or wherever, crack on with completing improvements and closing maintenance deficits on Belfast-Derry and Belfast-Dublin. Third track between Connolly and Howth Junction would getting pretty urgent.
Trade would be another interesting one. At present much NI trade moves through Dublin Port. A merged fleet might be able to manage some railfreight flows if additional track capacity was available on the Northern Line, maybe even all the way to Derry (again perhaps via the Aldergrove route). At the same time, expanding NI ports might be seen as a goal by the Irish government as an alternative to building a Dublin Port satellite at Balbriggan, so some freight might end up going the other way. Again, track capacity would be a factor at various points.
During the various exchanges of assets, I would reopen my past opinion that all 201 operations relocate to Heuston-side to leverage economies of scale and higher track speeds, with a balancing move of 22000s to Dublin-Belfast. Reform the Enterprise sets from three to four and put them on Limerick operations.
Were IE and NIR to merge, the anticompetitive issues mentioned above may cause the EU to demand some additional distance between bus and rail ownership - bus bays at railway stations becoming open access, no merger of Ulsterbus and BE. NTA would probably like that too as Ulsterbus remaining separate would create an additional credible entity to enter route franchise bidding contests.

IE 222 · 17-02-2019 4:10pm

L1011 wrote: »

Non stop on what paths?

As I said investment in a few loops will be a start. What paths does Maynooth line have???

L1011 · 17-02-2019 4:13pm

IE 222 wrote: »

As I said investment in a few loops will be a start. What paths does Maynooth line have???

Where do you intend to put them? The line is quite significant constrained for space.

Again - have you any engineering background or are you just writing stuff out of hope and guesses?

Irish rail in a United Ireland

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