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Irish rail in a United Ireland

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  • 15-02-2019 4:34pm
    #1
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭


    A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

    From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
    Population:
    Dublin: 565,000
    Navan: 30,173
    Virginia: 2,648
    Cavan: 10,914
    Clones: 1,680
    Omagh: 21,297
    Strabane: 17,670
    Derry: 83,652

    Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

    *possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

    Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?


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    #2
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

    From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
    Population:
    Dublin: 565,000
    Navan: 30,173
    Virginia: 2,648
    Cavan: 10,914
    Clones: 1,680
    Omagh: 21,297
    Strabane: 17,670
    Derry: 83,652

    Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

    *possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

    Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?
    AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
    There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.


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    #3
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

    From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
    Population:
    Dublin: 565,000
    Navan: 30,173
    Virginia: 2,648
    Cavan: 10,914
    Clones: 1,680
    Omagh: 21,297
    Strabane: 17,670
    Derry: 83,652

    Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

    *possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

    Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?
    AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
    There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.


    It'd be rediculously slow that way I was more thinking about continuing the m3 parkway line to make my theoretical mainline, was due to head out to navan anyways at least.


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    #4
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

    From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
    Population:
    Dublin: 565,000
    Navan: 30,173
    Virginia: 2,648
    Cavan: 10,914
    Clones: 1,680
    Omagh: 21,297
    Strabane: 17,670
    Derry: 83,652

    Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

    *possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

    Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

    I'd call it the 'Unification Railway'.

    But YES - its a damned good idea. Double track and electrified as far as Navan.


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    #5
    vapor trails
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭vapor trails


    If only it could be routed nearer Ratoath rather than Dunshaughlin it would probably serve the Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne trio a bit better. There is the guts of 25,000 in those 3 towns. Dunshaughlin is the smallest of the 3 but is taking the bulk of the development now.


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    #6
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    is_that_so wrote: »
    AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
    There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.

    Navan is linked to Drogheda and the Belfast line it's just only used by Tara Mines freight trains and no passengers run on it. They could build a station there but any train journey would end up taking longer than the bus via the Northern Line.


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    #7
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.


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    #8
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    markpb wrote: »
    The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

    In this hypothetical situation there would be EU money to spend like kids in a sweetshop on anything to increase the active labour force in NI. Long term a rebuild of the GNR route to Derry - well, something similar - would be done I think. Not sure about Navan up though


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    #9
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    markpb wrote: »
    The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

    We bailed out bankrupt Banks, and have paid much of that back and are recovering nicely. We've shown that we are capable, competent and responsible, so we can bail out a bankrupt country.

    The fascist scum that ran Northern Ireland need to be rounded up and forced to build a railway from Dublin to Derry. We put our skangers on minimum wage and their spides on minimum wage and get it built Burma Siam style. The heroin addicts can work for their methadone.

    Tugann Saothar Saoirse


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    #10
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    dermo888 wrote: »
    We bailed out bankrupt Banks, and have paid much of that back and are recovering nicely.

    Northern Ireland costs about the equivalent of a new bank bailout every four years, ad infinitum. Think of how this might impact capital expenditure.
    dermo888 wrote: »
    The fascist scum that ran Northern Ireland need to be rounded up and forced to build a railway from Dublin to Derry. We put our skangers on minimum wage and their spides on minimum wage and get it built Burma Siam style. The heroin addicts can work for their methadone.

    Tugann Saothar Saoirse

    Righto...


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    #11
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    A bit of a crayon excersise and not trying to have this decent into a political discussion but in the case of a United Ireland what new lines would become possible that in current plans aren't considered?

    From my own eyes looking at Google maps it shows it could be a golden opportunity for the people of navan to get their rail line as a part of a mainline running to Derry (dublin-navan- Virginia-cavan junction*- clones-omagh-Strabane-Derry)
    Population:
    Dublin: 565,000
    Navan: 30,173
    Virginia: 2,648
    Cavan: 10,914
    Clones: 1,680
    Omagh: 21,297
    Strabane: 17,670
    Derry: 83,652

    Doesnt seem to outlandish on population along the route.

    *possible branch to Enniskillen and onto donegal

    Any other possible new connects or amendments to my own?

    I'd build it to Letterkenny instead and build a Junction at Strabane for a line to Derry. That route is also a bit long I'd look at going via Navan, kingscourt, Carrickmacross, castleblaney, Monaghan, Omagh, Newtownsteward, Strabane, Raphoe and Letterkenny.


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    #12
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    vapor trails wrote: »
    If only it could be routed nearer Ratoath rather than Dunshaughlin it would probably serve the Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne trio a bit better. There is the guts of 25,000 in those 3 towns. Dunshaughlin is the smallest of the 3 but is taking the bulk of the development now.

    I agree, I think it would be better to extend the M3 line to Ratoath and Ashbounre with Dart instead of going to Maynooth with Dart. The extra money saved by not building to Navan and extending Dart to Maynooth could be invested into the Northern line for a few loops at least and open Navan - Drogheada to passengers. I think this will offer a lot more rail services and improvements overall for the same money.


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    #13
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I agree, I think it would be better to extend the M3 line to Ratoath and Ashbounre with Dart instead of going to Maynooth with Dart. The extra money saved by not building to Navan and extending Dart to Maynooth could be invested into the Northern line for a few loops at least and open Navan - Drogheada to passengers. I think this will offer a lot more rail services and improvements overall for the same money.

    Erm......I thought I was the crazy one around here, but thats an even worse idea than mine!


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    #14
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I agree, I think it would be better to extend the M3 line to Ratoath and Ashbounre with Dart instead of going to Maynooth with Dart. The extra money saved by not building to Navan and extending Dart to Maynooth could be invested into the Northern line for a few loops at least and open Navan - Drogheada to passengers. I think this will offer a lot more rail services and improvements overall for the same money.

    You are massively overestimating the cost of electrification and/or underestimating the cost of new lines


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    #15
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    L1011 wrote: »
    You are massively overestimating the cost of electrification and/or underestimating the cost of new lines

    But yet the government still has no problem forking out for motorways while our railways are suffering from decades of underinvestment


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    markpb wrote: »
    The UK pay over €12 billion each year to NI. The effect of a united Ireland on our budget would be huge. The last thing we'd be doing (for several years) is capital expenditure.

    Your comment is skewed to make NI seem like a money pit. You fail to account for the taxes raised within the region which offset the majority of the figure you quoted i.e. The cost/benefit ratio.

    It not unusual for most parts of a country to be net loss areas while only a handful generate most of the taxes.

    It should also be noted that there are other regions within the UK which have a much worse c/b ratio.


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    #17
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Is the figure £12b now?

    That figure or anyway close to it was totally debunked, it's not a subsidy figure, but NI allocated cost including the likes of NI contributing to Trident and the like. A meaningless figure.

    I now return you to our regular programme/topic.


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    #18
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    The 12 billions figure isn't the big picture in a brexit UK the EU will be only too happy to see economic or perceived economic prosperity to a part of it which broke away and remained in the EU as would be the case with Northern Ireland so funding a new railway opening up new parts of the country would certainly be someone the EU would take into consideration its a very easy thing to point at and say "look at what the EU have done for x Region of the country already.... Didn't see Westminster doing that"


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    #19
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Is the figure £12b now?

    That figure or anyway close to it was totally debunked, it's not a subsidy figure, but NI allocated cost including the likes of NI contributing to Trident and the like. A meaningless figure.

    I now return you to our regular programme/topic.

    The Sinn Fein funded report that is not based in reality is the only thing to "debunk" that. The figure is real.

    NI has a tiny labour force involvement figure, in part but by no means solely down to decades of fake disability claims being signed off on. Private sector employment is tiny and falling and is now primarily in low income services roles - call centres and retail.

    Public sector employment in a bloated civil service and needless duplication of facilities and services for two "communities" - sometimes three when there's a failed attempt at cross-community schooling in an area - makes up the rest. Add to that a voluntary sector where there are state funded jobs for former terrorist prisoners to be "community workers", primarily on the former UDA & UVF side

    Tax income is tiny, state expenditure is massive, and we'd need - and likely get - significant EU aid in any hypothetical reunification


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    #20
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    L1011 wrote: »
    The Sinn Fein funded report that is not based in reality is the only thing to "debunk" that. The figure is real.

    I'm not talking about the SF report. Would the IMF be a more credible source?

    https://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-costings-4144760-Jul2018/


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    #21
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    You are massively overestimating the cost of electrification and/or underestimating the cost of new lines

    How. If the original plans were to go ahead the money is been spent im just allocating it elsewhere. What I'm suggesting is adding a new Dart route to Ashbounre and opening Navan via Drogheada on current infrastructure while also investing in the Northern Line infrastructure from the same pot. There won't be enough for quad tracking but at least 2 or 3 loops could from it.Putting Darts on the Northern line with no extra infrastructure improvements will be the death of everything above Ballbriggan.


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    #22
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    How. If the original plans were to go ahead the money is been spent im just allocating it elsewhere. What I'm suggesting is adding a new Dart route to Ashbounre and opening Navan via Drogheada on current infrastructure while also investing in the Northern Line infrastructure from the same pot. There won't be enough for quad tracking but at least 2 or 3 loops could from it.Putting Darts on the Northern line with no extra infrastructure improvements will be the death of everything above Ballbriggan.

    Because the cost of electrification would not come vaguely close to covering what you are thinking it would build


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    #23
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    dermo888 wrote: »
    Erm......I thought I was the crazy one around here, but thats an even worse idea than mine!

    What getting junkies and "the scum" to build a line between 2 cities that are already rail connected.


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    #24
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    Because the cost of electrification would not come vaguely close to covering what you are thinking it would build

    I'm also using the cost of extending the line from M3 to Navan which will come back to the table in the next few years as long as there is no financial crash in the near future.


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    #25
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I'm also using the cost of extending the line from M3 to Navan which will come back to the table in the next few years as long as there is no financial crash in the near future.

    And still underestimating the cost of a completely new alignment


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    #26
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    And still underestimating the cost of a completely new alignment

    What new alignment, to Ashbounre?

    Using the money that would be spent on extending M3 to Navan and electricfing Clonsilla to Maynooth I would instead extend M3 to Ashbounre and upgrade current Navan line for passenger services (which is off good quality track in most parts) and invest the remaining money in the Northern line.


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    #27
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    is_that_so wrote: »
    AFAIK Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork make money. I don't think much else does.
    There was talk of linking Navan to the the Belfast line via Drogheda some years ago but think it was dropped.

    This line is always thrown out yet its never balanced with the billions in subsidies given to roads nor the billions due to the social, economic and environmental damage caused by roads


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    #28
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    What new alignment, to Ashbounre?

    Using the money that would be spent on extending M3 to Navan and electricfing Clonsilla to Maynooth I would instead extend M3 to Ashbounre and upgrade current Navan line for passenger services (which is off good quality track in most parts) and invest the remaining money in the Northern line.

    Yes. Reinstating an existing alignment is much cheaper than virgin territory.

    There would be no "remaining money" - you'd have spent it all and lots more yet


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    #29
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    Yes. Reinstating an existing alignment is much cheaper than virgin territory.

    There would be no "remaining money" - you'd have spent it all and lots more yet

    The proposed Navan alignment isn't exactly perfect either. There will be additional costs with some of the blunders around the M3 itself. Not saying there will 10s of millions saved but a modest amount to add some loops on the Nortern Line.


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    #30
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    The proposed Navan alignment isn't exactly perfect either. There will be additional costs with some of the blunders around the M3 itself. Not saying there will 10s of millions saved but a modest amount to add some loops on the Nortern Line.

    There is zero chance of it releasing enough to cover it - and zero chance it'd be cheaper either.

    Plus you need to buy diesel trains for Maynooth if you don't buy Electric so that cost saving is gone.


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    #31
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    IE 222 wrote: »
    What new alignment, to Ashbounre?

    Using the money that would be spent on extending M3 to Navan and electricfing Clonsilla to Maynooth I would instead extend M3 to Ashbounre and upgrade current Navan line for passenger services (which is off good quality track in most parts) and invest the remaining money in the Northern line.

    That would take too long to get to Navan if going via the already congested northern line. It could be done fairly easily but would anyone use is another question if the bus is a quicker option.


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