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e-scooters to become legal in Germany

24

Comments

  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    Err... 18650 cycles, so exactly the same ones in the Tesla Model S and X...

    Even pouch cells aren't fundamentally different. They are still lithium ion and can still catch fire. The batteries in mobile phones and laptops are pouch cells and they catch fire all the time too. Galaxy Note most famously....

    BMW i3's like yours also catch fire:
    https://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-burns-to-a-crisp-near-barcelona/

    Not that I'm terribly concerned by all this, it isn't like ICE cars don't also regularly burst into flames too.

    You are just scaremongering and spreading FUD about a technology you don't like.


    Of course a bit of caution when it comes to all batteries and electricity is of course a good idea. Just like ICE cars and gas appliances. Which is why I have multiple very good smoke alarms (Nest Protects) to protect my family. But such incidents are relatively rare.

    Eah, what technology did I say I did not like ? lol

    I am stating a simple fact.

    An ebike, escooter, hoverboard battery can catch fire those are facts it's not scaremongering at all.

    I am making People aware so they can be cautious and not take any chances.

    Some battery manufacturers are better than others , Bosch, Yamaha etc will ensure their batteries are assembles to the highest standards but they can not guarantee the battery won't catch fire.

    My BMW i3 can catch fire all it wants I couldn't care less as long as I got time to stop the car and get myself and family out and I'm not going to be asleep in it with my family !

    And yes, pouch cells can be very different, those in the Nissan leaf will not catch fire which is more to do with the chemistry than the cell format.

    LiFeP04 is another that will not catch fire but it could get hot enough to ignite combustible materials if close by.


  • #53
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bk wrote: »
    There are various ways.

    When they introduced mandatory helmet laws in Australia, it massively reduced the amount of cyclists, yet the number of deaths of cyclists actually went up:

    - Saftey in numbers. The more cyclists on the roads, the more likely a motorist is to expect a cyclist to be their and use caution. These helmet laws often radically cut the number of cyclists, which results in motorists being less careful driving.

    It is pretty noticable that almost no one in Amsterdam or Copenhagen wear helmets or high viz, yet they have the highest cycling rates in the world and the least accidents. Saftey in numbers, there are so many cyclists their, drivers always expect their to be a cyclist and drive more carefully.

    Also mandatory laws lead to less people cycling, thus more congestion and people get less exercise. Which can compound our already serious weight problems we are now experiencing in the west.

    Research has also shown that when cyclists wear helmets and high viz, that motorists drive closer to them and give them less space, then when not wearing a helmet.

    Their really is a lot of psychology going on with this subject and lot of very unexpected results when you study the subject around the world.

    If you truly care about cyclists and want them to be safer, then demand that better, fully segregated cycling infrastructure is built and the more people are encouraged to cycle.

    Safety in numbers and well designed infrastructure is what protects cyclists.

    why does having to wear a helmet massively decrease the number of cyclists though, its not like helmets are expensive ?


  • #54
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    why does having to wear a helmet massively decrease the number of cyclists though, its not like helmets are expensive ?

    Again a variety of reasons, but it was proven in Australia to do exactly that.

    - Makes cycling looks less attractive, don't want to mesh up your hair.
    - Having to carry a helmet around to jump on a Dublin City Bike, type service.
    - Makes cycling look to be more dangerous then it actually is, which in turn discourages people from cycling.

    The last one is particularly important. Cycling is NOT dangerous. It is actually less dangerous then walking. Yet by making people dress in bright yellow vests and helmets, you are sending the message that it is dangerous and should be avoided.

    It is misplaced nanny safety culture.

    Rather then doing what actually makes cyclists safer, high quality cycling infrastructure and more people cycling, you are instead making it look scarier then it actually is.

    The truth is a helmet will make zero difference to the majority of cycling accidents. Most are caused by cyclists getting caught under left turning trucks, with crashes with high speed cars being the second highest cause. A helmet will do feck all in either of those.

    Again if you actually care about cyclists saftey, then demand our government build high quality, segregated cycling infrastructure and promote more cyclists.


  • #55
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is not illegal to buy or sell them yet that I am aware.

    Really, then how can you buy them at Three.ie stores?

    https://www.three.ie/brand/xiaomi/

    Scroll down, under Eco Products.

    It would seem that the Gardai Press office have clarified that ones that you have to push off to start aren't classified as MPV's and are fine:

    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/
    Or as the Garda Press Office puts it, “this office understands is whether they are powered solely by an electric or mechanical means or assisted, i.e. using human power to initiate movement”.

    That would all explain why so many of them have appeared on our streets and why the Gardai have taken no action. So it turns out it wasn't so black and white after all.

    I still think they should be legislated for, similar to Germany, to remove all this silly uncertainty.


  • #56
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bk wrote: »
    Again a variety of reasons, but it was proven in Australia to do exactly that.

    - Makes cycling looks less attractive, don't want to mesh up your hair.
    - Having to carry a helmet around to jump on a Dublin City Bike, type service.
    - Makes cycling look to be more dangerous then it actually is, which in turn discourages people from cycling.

    The last one is particularly important. Cycling is NOT dangerous. It is actually less dangerous then walking. Yet by making people dress in bright yellow vests and helmets, you are sending the message that it is dangerous and should be avoided.

    It is misplaced nanny safety culture.

    Rather then doing what actually makes cyclists safer, high quality cycling infrastructure and more people cycling, you are instead making it look scarier then it actually is.

    The truth is a helmet will make zero difference to the majority of cycling accidents. Most are caused by cyclists getting caught under left turning trucks, with crashes with high speed cars being the second highest cause. A helmet will do feck all in either of those.

    Again if you actually care about cyclists saftey, then demand our government build high quality, segregated cycling infrastructure and promote more cyclists.

    But theyll wear those spasticated lycra outfits, cyclists are an odd bunch


  • #57
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    But theyll wear those spasticated lycra outfits, cyclists are an odd bunch

    Oh god.... Is that the level of conversation?!!!

    Because you know there are all different type of people. From sports cyclists who wear lyca (and always wear helmets BTW) who go at top speed, down to children, grannies and just commuters who are going A to B at a normal speed.


  • #58
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-has-lucky-escape-after-his-scooter-collides-with-dublin-bus-904713.html
    A man on a scooter had a lucky escape last night when he collided with a Dublin Bus.

    Taoiseach says extension of Brexit date 'not inevitable'
    The incident occurred in the south of the city yesterday evening.

    Gardaí posted pictures of the crash online showing the bike wedged under the double-decker, and they warned people to stay safe when on the roads.

    They said the rider had a lucky escape.


  • #59
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Looks to be a regular scooter, not the push to start e-scooters being discussed here.

    Either way a crash is a crash, they happen every day unfortunately, I'm not sure what the point is.


  • #60
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    bk wrote: »
    Either way a crash is a crash, they happen every day unfortunately, I'm not sure what the point is.

    No point past the obvious of something timely related to the topic. For people thinking about scooters of any kind it's worth considering they'll be sharing with vehicular traffic in places.

    Bus drivers seem to do pretty well sharing with cyclists but it's difficult to see everything.


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  • #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    Really, then how can you buy them at Three.ie stores?

    https://www.three.ie/brand/xiaomi/

    Scroll down, under Eco Products.

    It would seem that the Gardai Press office have clarified that ones that you have to push off to start aren't classified as MPV's and are fine:

    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/

    That would all explain why so many of them have appeared on our streets and why the Gardai have taken no action. So it turns out it wasn't so black and white after all.

    I still think they should be legislated for, similar to Germany, to remove all this silly uncertainty.

    Thanks for the link but it does not really remove the grey area, it's all well and good until you end up in court and some Barrister discovers some law that makes them illegal and you end up paying a tonne of money to someone.

    I think you misunderstood me there at the beginning of your quote, I said that they "are not" illegal to buy or sell.


  • #62
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thanks for the link but it does not really remove the grey area, it's all well and good until you end up in court and some Barrister discovers some law that makes them illegal and you end up paying a tonne of money to someone.

    I think you misunderstood me there at the beginning of your quote, I said that they "are not" illegal to buy or sell.

    ROFLOL, talk about some extreme back pedalling their now :D

    So you have gone from saying that they are definitely illegal just a few posts ago:
    Deleted User wrote:
    These scooters are all illegal in Ireland because if they have no pedelec system and if the motor engages while no pedals are being turned or by using a throttle and are over 250 watts of power then they are illegal and can not be used on public streets and footpaths as they are classed as motor vehicles/mopeheads.

    To now admitting that it isn't so clear, that it is a grey area, that their is no case law for it yet. In other words exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks

    Though having researched it further and having seen the response from the Gardai, I'm now gone from saying it is a grey area to it actually being quiet clear that the push to start ones aren't MPV's and aren't covered by legislation at all.

    It is very clear to me now that if the government want to restrict them or have Gardai seize them, they will have to update the Road Traffic Act to specifically include them, just like they had to amend it to include EV's and Electric Assistance bikes.


  • #63
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    bk wrote: »
    To now admitting that it isn't so clear, that it is a grey area, that their is no case law for it yet. In other words exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks

    I think where some confusion might come in is the concept of something being street legal versus being banned or illegal.

    For example look at this e-bike https://www.greenaer.ie/product/stromer-st3-5/

    It has an 820w motor and a top speed of 45km/h. That's definitely outside of the range for riding a bike without license/tax/insurance.

    It's not illegal to own one though or to to sell it, you just can't use it on the public roads. Whether retailers are clear on this I don't know.


  • #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    ROFLOL, talk about some extreme back pedalling their now :D

    So you have gone from saying that they are definitely illegal just a few posts ago:



    To now admitting that it isn't so clear, that it is a grey area, that their is no case law for it yet. In other words exactly what I've been saying all along. Thanks

    Though having researched it further and having seen the response from the Gardai, I'm now gone from saying it is a grey area to it actually being quiet clear that the push to start ones aren't MPV's and aren't covered by legislation at all.

    It is very clear to me now that if the government want to restrict them or have Gardai seize them, they will have to update the Road Traffic Act to specifically include them, just like they had to amend it to include EV's and Electric Assistance bikes.

    I didn't read that link before so 1 up for BK ;)

    It's nuts the whole think, ebikes are limited to 25 Km/h ,250 watts and these are allowed on the road with probably the same bloody limit and ebikes are restricted to pedal only.

    You couldn't make this sh1t up.


  • #65
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's nuts the whole think, ebikes are limited to 25 Km/h ,250 watts and these are allowed on the road with probably the same bloody limit and ebikes are restricted to pedal only.

    Well technically it's just that the motor assist cuts out at 25km/h, if you can peddle it faster than that you can...

    The speed limit makes sense to me but the motor limit doesn't. If you were on hilly terrain then you'd really feel that limit.

    I really feel like e-bikes represent the best and cheapest opportunity to revolutionise how people travel. They're far cheaper to buy and also offer people an opportunity to exercise. They greatly expand the range at which people could consider cycling to work (or anywhere else).

    For me personally I don't want to have to cycle on the road in places like the N4 with cars/buses zipping past. If there was a proper segregated route I'd start using it tomorrow.


  • #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sharper wrote: »
    Well technically it's just that the motor assist cuts out at 25km/h, if you can peddle it faster than that you can...

    The speed limit makes sense to me but the motor limit doesn't. If you were on hilly terrain then you'd really feel that limit.

    I really feel like e-bikes represent the best and cheapest opportunity to revolutionise how people travel. They're far cheaper to buy and also offer people an opportunity to exercise. They greatly expand the range at which people could consider cycling to work (or anywhere else).

    For me personally I don't want to have to cycle on the road in places like the N4 with cars/buses zipping past. If there was a proper segregated route I'd start using it tomorrow.

    Yes the limit at which the motor cuts power is ridiculous, it should be 45 Km/h.

    Bosch and Yamaha are more like 500-700 watts. They get around it by limiting speed and acceleration so they get their type approval which doesn't measure wattage.


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  • #67
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes the limit at which the motor cuts power is ridiculous, it should be 45 Km/h.

    Bosch and Yamaha are more like 500-700 watts. They get around it by limiting speed and acceleration so they get their type approval which doesn't measure wattage.

    A higher speed limit would certainly make e-bikes even more useful for commuters, my own trip would be 25km each way so the extra speed and power would be welcome.

    I can also see how that would be a safety concern.

    Overall I think governments focus too much on electric cars when smaller vehicles make a lot more sense. Even if some type of license is needed it might well be worthwhile.

    Anything at all to get people out of cars. With public transport also at capacity in many areas getting people out of that also has benefits!

    I think e-scooters make the most sense for people that would otherwise have to walk quite a bit to get to public transport. Even fold up bikes take a lot of space but scooters can more easily be accommodated on buses and trains.


  • #68
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    45km/h is a nuts suggestion. just get a motorbike if that's the speed you want to commute at.
    as mentioned above, e-bikes are not limited. their motors are, but as a *bike* they're not.


  • #69
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    why does having to wear a helmet massively decrease the number of cyclists though, its not like helmets are expensive ?

    Girls don’t want hat hair. It also implies that cycling is inherently dangerous.

    What are your thoughts on making drivers wear neck braces to remove whiplash etc. ?


  • #70
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there's often a comparison with seatbelts and helmets. seatbelts are built into cars and are stored in them.
    there's no concept of 'not being able to drive because you forgot to bring your seatbelt with you'.


  • #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    45km/h is a nuts suggestion. just get a motorbike if that's the speed you want to commute at.
    as mentioned above, e-bikes are not limited. their motors are, but as a *bike* they're not.

    You're wrong, 45 km/r is perfect max for a bicycle, after experience at 80 Km/h on my ebike diy projects I can tell you 45 Km/r is a perfect Max on a bicycle and actually 50 Km/h would be better.28 mph is fine but the extra top speed should be allowed given that you'd most likely be among higher speed traffic and that is the limit in town anyway.

    That does not mean the rider should ride at those speeds all the time no more than a driver should drive 200 Km/h all the time. It's just common sense.

    The 25 Km/h cut off on a heavier bike means it's a lot harder to maintain a higher speed without assistance.

    However, that being said, it's always a good idea to get an S-pedelec and have insurance, the extra speed is definitely a lot more useful for commuting and the insurance as horrid as that sounds for cyclists won't cost the earth and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than owning a car.

    We should be encouraging a lot more people out of cars and a more useful top speed could convince a lot more people to change however anyone with a license can ride any S-Pedelec and have a lot more advantages, sure, you can't cycle in cycle lanes with a S-pedelec but our cycle lanes are pure dirt anyway and mostly bus lanes and a lot of cyclists refuse to use the few dedicated cycles we have anyway so the benefits of S-pedelics greatly out weigh the negatives in my opinion of course, certainly if I lived in Dublin and was up to 10-12 Km from work this is exactly what I would be doing.

    What's more bizarre is that a scooter can have a throttle but a bicyle can not , it's just madness.


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  • #72
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    45km/h is a nuts suggestion. just get a motorbike if that's the speed you want to commute at.
    as mentioned above, e-bikes are not limited. their motors are, but as a *bike* they're not.

    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.

    Realistically you'd be into the realm of needing some sort of license and a decent helmet though. An easier to obtain license for fast e-bikes could be implemented. I don't think any of this is likely, governments everywhere seem to be totally missing the potential here.


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sharper wrote: »
    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.

    Realistically you'd be into the realm of needing some sort of license and a decent helmet though. An easier to obtain license for fast e-bikes could be implemented. I don't think any of this is likely, governments everywhere seem to be totally missing the potential here.

    The Government are nor missing the potential at all, cars bring in Billions in revenue so it's in the Governments best interest to keep this gravy train running.

    But back to faster ebikes, there is nothing to stop anyone with a license already getting an s-pedelec and they will pay a lot less insurance also , in fact this is the only version of ebike I would suggest anyone to get , insurance is always good anyway.


  • #74
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The Government are nor missing the potential at all, cars bring in Billions in revenue so it's in the Governments best interest to keep this gravy train running.

    Not quite the gravy train you think it is.
    Infrastructure costs , obesity , heart and lung problems, accidents, policing all cost the state money.

    Only a fraction of the money spent on cars stay in the state , we don’t produce cars and slit if the financing is done by foreign banks.


  • #75
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    These scooters are all illegal in Ireland because if they have no pedelec system and if the motor engages while no pedals are being turned or by using a throttle and are over 250 watts of power then they are illegal and can not be used on public streets and footpaths as they are classed as motor vehicles/mopeheads.

    God help anyone if they hit someone with one of these scooters as they will have some compensation and legal bills to pay and possibly a criminal conviction for knowingly using a illegally powered motor vehicle without insurance and or license and ignorance of the Law is no exception. You buy it it's your job to know the legalities.

    The same goes for hoverboards etc are all illegal in public in Ireland.

    It is not illegal to buy or sell them yet that I am aware.
    You seem to know your stuff so what’s the story with the four wheelers that old people and fat people use. They are used on the path and on the road and are completely throttle controlled.


  • #76
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    sharper wrote: »
    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.

    Realistically you'd be into the realm of needing some sort of license and a decent helmet though. An easier to obtain license for fast e-bikes could be implemented. I don't think any of this is likely, governments everywhere seem to be totally missing the potential here.

    What part of the road do you mean?


  • #77
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bk wrote: »
    ... clear that the push to start ones aren't MPV's and aren't covered by legislation at all... .

    I always find this a weird logic.

    This basically implies if I build some weird homemade vehicle that doesn't fall under any current classification it somehow is ok to use on the road. That makes zero sense to me.

    Also saying something is grey area is just a euphemism for it's not legal. And because you push to start something means nothing. You will not find push to start in the legislation.

    There are scooters that need constant physical movement from the rider to keep moving. You could make an argument for those. Those that don't no. Most of them have a cruise control for Pete's sake.

    That said I assume they will be legalised similarly to eBikes. With similar limitations. At least initially.

    They are brilliant, if used sensibly.


  • #78
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    sharper wrote: »
    There are parts of the road where motorcycles, buses and bicycles (Edit: And for no reason at all, taxis!) all share the same lane. In those sections 45m/h would make sense to me.

    Unlike a motorbike a high spec e-bike could be used in regular bike only lanes as well if the speed limit was observed.
    the notion of an e-bike being 'rider assisted' goes out the window with the concept of an e-bike where the motor assists up to 45km/h - at that stage, the pedalling of the cyclist is just cynical window dressing, it's an electric motorbike with pedals.

    a normal cyclist, to maintain 45km/h on the flat, with no wind, needs to put out over 250W simply to deal with air resistance. on my 20km cycle to work the other morning, strava estimated i was putting out an average of 136W, and i'm reasonably fit.

    why not just get one of these?
    https://elettrica.vespa.com/en/


  • #79
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    While we are on it:

    https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/european-parliament-officially-takes-its-position-exclude-pedelecs-mandatory


  • #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the notion of an e-bike being 'rider assisted' goes out the window with the concept of an e-bike where the motor assists up to 45km/h - at that stage, the pedalling of the cyclist is just cynical window dressing, it's an electric motorbike with pedals.

    a normal cyclist, to maintain 45km/h on the flat, with no wind, needs to put out over 250W simply to deal with air resistance. on my 20km cycle to work the other morning, strava estimated i was putting out an average of 136W, and i'm reasonably fit.

    why not just get one of these?
    https://elettrica.vespa.com/en/

    Because people might want to actually get some exercise , ebikes like the Bosch bikes do not allow you to simply pretend you are peddling , they have torque sensors and the more assistance you give the more power assist power you get.

    And at 45 Km/h you will still need to put in a lot of effort.

    People are thinking about wattage of these bikes, yes they give good assistance but you still have to put in a lot of effort because without this effort the motor will give you a lot less power.

    The S-pedelecs are classed as 350 watts but as with the 250 watt bikes they are running at least twice this and more.


  • #81
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ted1 wrote: »
    Girls don’t want hat hair. It also implies that cycling is inherently dangerous.

    What are your thoughts on making drivers wear neck braces to remove whiplash etc. ?

    so its because of a fashion choice, so is cycling inherently safe then , the same people who constantly complain that cycling in dublin is dangerous are the most against having to wear a helmet,

    its not down to the neck brace thing. An RSA survey a few years ago found that 35% of women under 30 don't wear seatbelts, 28% of women accross all ages , the biggest factors were not ruining tan / clothes or comfort reasons , yet we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.

    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.


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  • #82
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.
    of course it is :cool:


  • #83
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.
    as ben goldacre would say, i think you'll find it's more complicated than that.

    it's safer to wear a helmet, in the event that you assume that the impact with your head has already happened.
    if you make helmets mandatory, you will drive down the number of deaths of cyclists, but the primary factor will be because there will be fewer people cycling, not that helmets are a magic bullet.
    and you'll be making life more dangerous, not less, for the people who choose to continue cycling.
    and for the people who discontinue cycling - cycling has a benefit to risk ratio of anywhere between 11 to 1 and 70 to 1, depending on which study you read; so the people who discontinue cycling will see a far greater negative impact to their health from not cycling than they would from the 'risks' of continuing to cycle.


  • #84
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,648 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    so its because of a fashion choice, so is cycling inherently safe then , the same people who constantly complain that cycling in dublin is dangerous are the most against having to wear a helmet,

    its not down to the neck brace thing. An RSA survey a few years ago found that 35% of women under 30 don't wear seatbelts, 28% of women accross all ages , the biggest factors were not ruining tan / clothes or comfort reasons , yet we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.

    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.

    Yes , cycling is safe.
    Drivers suffering whiplash costs millions each year.

    In all the cycling deaths that occurred , helmets wouldn’t have helped


  • #85
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    bk wrote: »
    Really, then how can you buy them at Three.ie stores?

    https://www.three.ie/brand/xiaomi/

    Scroll down, under Eco Products.

    It would seem that the Gardai Press office have clarified that ones that you have to push off to start aren't classified as MPV's and are fine:

    https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/



    That would all explain why so many of them have appeared on our streets and why the Gardai have taken no action. So it turns out it wasn't so black and white after all.

    I still think they should be legislated for, similar to Germany, to remove all this silly uncertainty.

    I know a Traffic Garda and apparently the guidance they have been given is that if the motor/engine is capable of propelling the scooter AT ANY POINT with out human effort or gravity, its a MPV. The method of starting (pushing off etc) does not matter.

    They also said that they are hard to spot usually as they look like normal scooters. The give away is when they are zooming uphill with no effort from the person on them. Then its a u-turn and blue lights job.

    They are not illegal to sell or own as they can be used on private ground.


  • #86
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Teddy Daniels wrote: »
    You seem to know your stuff so what’s the story with the four wheelers that old people and fat people use. They are used on the path and on the road and are completely throttle controlled.

    They are classed as medical mobility aids (or something like that) so are not classed as vehicles.
    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But back to faster ebikes, there is nothing to stop anyone with a license already getting an s-pedelec and they will pay a lot less insurance also , in fact this is the only version of ebike I would suggest anyone to get , insurance is always good anyway.

    Having a licence would make no difference. The bike would still need to be registered, taxed etc.


  • #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    prinzeugen wrote: »

    Having a licence would make no difference. The bike would still need to be registered, taxed etc.

    I thought that was rather obvious lol maybe not.

    Still it makes the bike a lot more practical, helps keep up with faster flowing traffic and is almost as fast as the town limit of 50 Km/h.

    S-pedelecs also mean the rider will still put effort into cycling because the bikes gearing will allow your cadence to keep up with the motor and the motor won't provide decent power unless the rider puts in decent effort this is the way the likes of the Bosch, Yamaha ebikes work with their torque sensors.

    + If there's an accident and it's the riders fault they are covered with insurance.

    It's a no brainer if someone is already a car owner looking for an alternative form of transport, the faster 45 Km/h would make a big difference to anyone really.


  • #88
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    as ben goldacre would say, i think you'll find it's more complicated than that.

    it's safer to wear a helmet, in the event that you assume that the impact with your head has already happened.
    if you make helmets mandatory, you will drive down the number of deaths of cyclists, but the primary factor will be because there will be fewer people cycling, not that helmets are a magic bullet.
    and you'll be making life more dangerous, not less, for the people who choose to continue cycling.
    and for the people who discontinue cycling - cycling has a benefit to risk ratio of anywhere between 11 to 1 and 70 to 1, depending on which study you read; so the people who discontinue cycling will see a far greater negative impact to their health from not cycling than they would from the 'risks' of continuing to cycle.

    but the argument is that a helmet being unattractive would put enough people off cycling in order to make it dangerous, what does that say about how secure cyclists are in their mode of transport if they won't even wear a helmet to protect themselves.


  • #89
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    but the argument is that a helmet being unattractive would put enough people off cycling in order to make it dangerous, what does that say about how secure cyclists are in their mode of transport if they won't even wear a helmet to protect themselves.

    dunno, why don't you go and ask the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Dutch people who seem to manage it on a daily basis?

    Could it simply be that its just superfluous?


  • #90
    StereoSound
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭StereoSound


    Should Three ireland be selling these things if they are illegal? I want to buy one but don't want to end up having it confiscated and potentially hauled to court for no insurance and tax either... This is the answer to no driving and waiting for buses in Dublin...I sweat like a pig when I cycle and it doesn't help at all arriving at work like I took a swim in Mount Olympia in my clothes.


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  • #91
    Paradicia
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭Paradicia


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    so its because of a fashion choice, so is cycling inherently safe then , the same people who constantly complain that cycling in dublin is dangerous are the most against having to wear a helmet,

    its not down to the neck brace thing. An RSA survey a few years ago found that 35% of women under 30 don't wear seatbelts, 28% of women accross all ages , the biggest factors were not ruining tan / clothes or comfort reasons , yet we still mandate people wear seatbelts because they do save lives, like helmets do, its what theyre there for.

    Being a cyclist isnt cool or attractive anyway, adding a life saving helmet atleast means people don't assume you lack basic safety awareness too.

    Says the guy who probably wouldn't be able to push a pair pedals for 5 minutes :D


  • #92
    Tacitus Kilgore
    Registered Users Posts: 2,128 ✭✭✭Tacitus Kilgore


    StereoSound wrote: »
    Should Three ireland be selling these things if they are illegal? I want to buy one but don't want to end up having it confiscated and potentially hauled to court for no insurance and tax either... This is the answer to no driving and waiting for buses in Dublin...I sweat like a pig when I cycle and it doesn't help at all arriving at work like I took a swim in Mount Olympia in my clothes.

    Course they should if they're profitable, nothing illegal about selling them, or using them on private property.


  • #93
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    StereoSound wrote: »
    Should Three ireland be selling these things if they are illegal? I want to buy one but don't want to end up having it confiscated and potentially hauled to court for no insurance and tax either... This is the answer to no driving and waiting for buses in Dublin...I sweat like a pig when I cycle and it doesn't help at all arriving at work like I took a swim in Mount Olympia in my clothes.

    I heard tell that Three froze sales but no confirmation if thats true.


  • #94
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    StereoSound wrote: »
    I sweat like a pig when I cycle and it doesn't help at all arriving at work like I took a swim in Mount Olympia in my clothes.

    You are probably overdressed.
    Dress for how warm you will feel after ten minutes cycling, not how warm you feel when you step outside the door.
    (Or start with a jacket on and take it off after a few minutes)


  • #95
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    People wearing black clothing with black helmets!

    Do they want to be knocked off :confused:

    Hi Vis jackets please.


  • #96
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    People wearing black clothing with black helmets!

    Do they want to be knocked off :confused:

    Hi Vis jackets please.


    I'm sure you'll be backing that up with links to your research....
    ...Regardless of scenario, drivers hit yellow-jacketed cyclists at a slightly higher rate..

    https://cyclingfallacies.com/en/19/people-should-wear-hi-viz-when-cycling
    Small but potentially lethal number of drivers will pass too close whatever you wear

    https://road.cc/content/news/99660-high-vis-clothing-doesnt-make-cars-pass-you-more-safely-says-new-study


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  • #97
    cdaly_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    People wearing black clothing with black helmets!

    Do they want to be knocked off :confused:

    Hi Vis jackets please.

    If you want to understand why this is a bad idea, have a read of the Cycling forum's Hi-Vis megathread...


  • #98
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Oops sorry, I was mistaken by thinking that e scooter riders wearing Hi Vis clothing would be more visible to drivers (than wearing all black) .....

    My only question being what's the point of Hi Vis clothing (and reflectors) if they have no effect on safety ?

    My old fashioned head thought that if 'e scooter' riders wore hi Vis clothing/jackets then they would be more easily seen in the dark .... but apparently not :(

    I'll get my coat.


  • #99
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Oops sorry, I was mistaken by thinking that e scooter riders wearing Hi Vis clothing would be more visible to drivers (than wearing all black) .....

    My only question being what's the point of Hi Vis clothing (and reflectors) if they have no effect on safety ?

    My old fashioned head thought that if 'e scooter' riders wore hi Vis clothing/jackets then they would be more easily seen in the dark .... but apparently not :(

    I'll get my coat.

    If you have headlights on your car, how do you find it difficult to see and avoid a pedestrian (or otherwise) in dark clothing if you are travelling at an appropriate speed?


  • #100
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    If you want to understand why this is a bad idea, have a read of the Cycling forum's Hi-Vis megathread...

    Maybe we should put hi viz on this post...


  • #101
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    donvito99 wrote: »
    If you have headlights on your car, how do you find it difficult to see and avoid a pedestrian (or otherwise) in dark clothing if you are travelling at an appropriate speed?

    Headlights are there so the vehicle can be seen, full beams is to see.


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