Dublin Airport's micro climate!

compsys · 09-03-2010 7:54pm #1

Does anyone else think that Dublin Airport seems to experience its own little micro climate sometimes?

Take last night for example. According to Met Éireann, the temperature dropped to a bone-chilling -7.3c at the station, almost colder than anything experienced during the 'Big Freeze' and several degrees colder than any other station recorded last night, even Casement, which is only a few miles away. In fact, Casement recorded a low of 'only' -2.8c. Indeed, for the past few nights the overnight low in Dublin Airport has often been the coldest out of any location. I would have expected that the effects of the Irish sea would have meant that the coldest locations would have been far more inland or at least more northern.

I remember the same thing happened last year when we got some really good weather around the end of May. On many nights the overnight low recorded at the airport then was often by far the coldest of all the locations monitored on the Met site.

Anyone any thoughts or explanations?

Deep Easterly · 09-03-2010 7:58pm

compsys wrote: »

Does anyone else think that Dublin Airport seems to experience its own little micro climate sometimes?

Take last night for example. According to Met Éireann, the temperature dropped to a bone-chilling -7.3c at the station, almost colder than anything experienced during the 'Big Freeze' and several degrees colder than any other station recorded last night, even Casement, which is only a few miles away. In fact, Casement recorded a low of 'only' -2.8c. Indeed, for the past few nights the overnight low in Dublin Airport has often been the coldest out of any location. I would have expected that the effects of the Irish sea would have meant that the coldest locations would have been far more inland or at least more northern.

I remember the same thing happened last year when we got some really good weather around the end of May. On many nights the overnight low recorded at the airport then was often by far the coldest of all the locations monitored on the Met site.

Anyone any thoughts or explanations?

A good observation Comp. I noticed the same thing myself over the last few days. Coastal Dublin hardly fell to freezing levels, Casement as you say down to a modest -2.8c, yet at the Airport we had temps down to -7c. That seems a huge difference over such a minute area to be honest. I can't give any explanations as to why, but something seems to be not right about it.

pistolpetes11 · 09-03-2010 8:27pm

compsys wrote: »

Does anyone else think that Dublin Airport seems to experience its own little micro climate sometimes?

Take last night for example. According to Met Éireann, the temperature dropped to a bone-chilling -7.3c at the station, almost colder than anything experienced during the 'Big Freeze' and several degrees colder than any other station recorded last night, even Casement, which is only a few miles away. In fact, Casement recorded a low of 'only' -2.8c. Indeed, for the past few nights the overnight low in Dublin Airport has often been the coldest out of any location. I would have expected that the effects of the Irish sea would have meant that the coldest locations would have been far more inland or at least more northern.

I remember the same thing happened last year when we got some really good weather around the end of May. On many nights the overnight low recorded at the airport then was often by far the coldest of all the locations monitored on the Met site.

Anyone any thoughts or explanations?

In Newbridge we got down to -6.7 last night (well 5.58am) and casement is usually near enough in temp surprised at the variance myself , The DP's have been something of note also , with a -12.8 recorded yesterday and today was the 3rd day it has not risen above 0, at the moment its -3.9c (DP)

InKonspikuou2 · 09-03-2010 8:32pm

I've noticed a lot airports around the world have microclimates.

Deep Easterly · 09-03-2010 8:44pm

I seem to remember someone on here before ( I think Mothman, but I could be wrong) saying that the weather station at Dublin Airport was moved to a much cooler area over the last 10 years or so. I do not claim to know the geography of the area that well, but how cool would the airport be compared to nearby areas? It's a tricky one.

M.T. Cranium · 09-03-2010 8:45pm

I notice on the google earth map that the land around the airport is rural and very flat for quite a distance, so in that environment the air could radiate more efficiently than at some other places on a calm clear night. I also noticed that the runways seem to be painted white there. This would add to radiative cooling locally. I am assuming the weather station is located away from the terminal and the control tower but with urban heat islands, there is always a very sharp boundary -- I have done some mobile temperature surveys and at the very edge of a built-up area, there is often a drop of 3 to 5 C degrees on a calm clear night, over the space of less than a hundred metres.

Oddly enough, my version of google earth has a wikipedia link for Chechnya on the grounds of Dublin airport. I wonder if anyone else sees that link?

Su Campu · 09-03-2010 10:06pm

I know those areas pretty well. The Dublin met station was moved about 3 years ago, and is now located about 2.5kms further away from the terminal, near the approach end of Runway 10, and "way out in the country"! The old location was much nearer to the terminal, just north of the Bravo taxiways. The old site has now been converted into a paved aircraft parking area. The new site is fully grassed, and around 300m from the nearest large paved taxiway. The ground is relatively flat, so cold sinking is probably not an factor. It's slightly higher (1 or 2m) than the level of the nearby R108 road, which is also a great spot to see the station from.

The Casement station is located on the southern end of the field, on very slightly sloping ground, so cold air may drain away easier than at Dublin.

Mothman · 09-03-2010 11:20pm

It's moved again??
Before that it was moved in May 1994. Not sure where it was before that, but I seem to remember soemone pointing out to me that it was near the main terminal. The multi storey carpark has been constructed since.
As for reasons for very low temperatures, I've recorded equivalent temperatures (-6.4C & -12C on grass) and I'm 1.6k from the sea. The dry ground is enhancing the radiative loss of heat. Note that wind speed readings are at 10m height, so 5 knots at that heights could be calm at screen level meaning no mixing of air and allowing it to cool.

Deep Easterly · 09-03-2010 11:26pm

Mothman wrote: »

It's moved again??
Before that it was moved in May 1994. Not sure where it was before that, but I seem to remember soemone pointing out to me that it was near the main terminal. The multi storey carpark has been constructed since.
As for reasons for very low temperatures, I've recorded equivalent temperatures (-6.4C & -12C on grass) and I'm 1.6k from the sea. The dry ground is enhancing the radiative loss of heat. Note that wind speed readings are at 10m height, so 5 knots at that heights could be calm at screen level meaning no mixing of air and allowing it to cool.

Isn't that the case though for much of country. I would have thought that Casement, being just that little less exposed to the Irish Sea, would naturally record a lower, or at least similar temp, despite being on a very slight incline? Casement regularly records lower than the Airport at this time of the year, and can often have the lowest nationwide values, so isn't it unusual that Dublin Airport would have recorded temps of almost 5.0c cooler?, or to put it another way, isn't it unusual that Casement would be 5.0c warmer under the very same conditions and only a few miles apart.

Mothman · 09-03-2010 11:40pm

It is a large difference and unusual and I don't know nor even guess a plausibale answer, but there must be sound reasonings. Its what make this so facinating!

Having seen my own figures, I'm not surprised at the low temp at Dublin AP, its the relatively high temp at Casment is more puzzling to me.

The type of soil can have a bearing with light soild cooling down much more. If the Dublin AP site is in a slight hollow (as I've heard) then perhaps this was the difference on the night. The airport is quite exposed negating the effect of the hollow all the time bar the very odd time, perhaps this night being one.

The grass temp was lower in Casement close to 10C lower than air temp, a huge difference.

Deep Easterly · 09-03-2010 11:50pm

Mothman wrote: »

Having seen my own figures, I'm not surprised at the low temp at Dublin AP, its the relatively high temp at Casment is more puzzling to me.

Me too! :cool: most areas in the country got -5.0c at least, so Casement's value certainly was a shocker. Even Malin head got down to -2.7c on the same night, although the south coast seems to have got off more lightly.

compsys · 10-03-2010 12:27am

10pm, 3c at Dublin Airport
11pm, -4!

That's a temperature drop of 7 degrees within the space of an hour! A bit unusual this late in the night, no? Perhaps if it had occurred just between the hours of sunset and night you could comprehend it, but at 10pm? It almost deserves a thread of its own!

Deffo something strange goin' on in Dublin Airport!

pistolpetes11 · 10-03-2010 12:33am

Casement is -3 and Saggart is -4.2

M50 blanch is 0.5 ,

Some strange readings alrite, would an hour be enough for a cold air to set in ?

n0brain3r · 10-03-2010 12:33am

compsys wrote: »

10pm, 3c at Dublin Airport

11pm, -4!

That's a temperature drop of 7 degrees within the space of an hour! A bit unusual this late in the night, no? Perhaps if it had occurred just between the hours of sunset and night you could comprehend it, but at 10pm? It almost deserves a thread of its own!

Deffo something strange goin' on in Dublin Airport!

I've been watching this too maybe the taxi drivers created their own warm front leaving their engines running during the protest and now have gone home;) Am nearly sure Casement dropped from 0 to -3 in the same time dunno if it means anything maybe some else can confirm?

Su Campu · 10-03-2010 12:43am

Casement is temp -3/ DP -5 at 23Z. I don't know what it was at 22Z.

Here are the last 3 hours at Dublin, showing a 5 and 4 degree drop in temp and dewpoint, respectively, in 30 minutes. Without being actually out there to see what's going on then I've no idea. Could it be frost formation on the radiation shield, causing cooling due to latent heat of fusion? Anyone live local? Head down there with a torch and report back!

[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092330Z 34002KT CAVOK M04/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092300Z 35002KT CAVOK M04/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092230Z 34003KT CAVOK M03/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092200Z 36003KT CAVOK 02/M00 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092130Z 36003KT 9999 FEW022 01/M00 Q1034 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092100Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW022 00/M01 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]

xper · 10-03-2010 12:48am

Obvious related question: how often are official weather station's instruments calibrated and/or checked for faults? Any redundancy/backup/cross-reference instruments?

I'd noticed the same Dublin airport nocturnal fridge effect over the last week. I would suppose at this stage the operators of the station had noticed too and would have checked for and corrected any problem if they suspected such.

FWIW: Casement airport altitude is 319ft, Dublin is 242ft asl.

- Xper

Deep Easterly · 10-03-2010 12:54am

Screen grab of IWN temp map showing current temps in the Dublin area:

The airport's figure of -4c looks quite plausible when compared to other values being recorded at nearby stations, but that drop of 7c in one hour at the airport as mentioned by others just does not sit right with me.

Deep Easterly · 10-03-2010 1:12am

n0brain3r wrote: »

I've been watching this too maybe the taxi drivers created their own warm front leaving their engines running during the protest and now have gone home

Indeed, much cheese burger induced flatulence could have caused the temp to stay up earlier alright.

Su Campu · 10-03-2010 9:03am

I may have a reason for the sudden drop in temperature and dewpoint at Dublin. It could be due to a decrease in air traffic around 10pm.

All planes generate wing-tip vortices as they fly, and these are most pronounced on landing and take off, when flaps are down and speed is low. In windy conditions, these vortices are dissipated pretty quickly, but on near calm conditions (eg. last night) they float to the ground unaffected, and can generate localised turbulence.

As the station is located at the departure end of Runway 28, planes taking off over it would be generating these vortices, and hence ensuring a mixed boundary layer, with warmer air from above being mixed with cold surface air, limiting frost generation on the grass. But around 10pm, most departures have ceased for the night, and so too have the vortices. This allows rapid cooling of the surface layer, generating frost, which takes water vapour from the air, leading to the drop in dewpoints observed.

The reverse happened this morning at around 0530am when the first of the departures occurred. From 0500 to 0530am there was a marked increase in temperature and dewpoint, due to the same process as above.

[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100730Z 36005KT 9999 FEW017 BKN042 01/00 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100700Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW017 SCT038 BKN043 M00/M00 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100630Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW017 BKN043 M00/M00 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100600Z 35004KT 9999 FEW017 BKN043 M00/M00 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100530Z 35004KT 9999 FEW017 BKN042 M00/M00 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100500Z 35003KT 9999 SCT043 M02/M03 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100430Z 35003KT 9999 SCT042 M03/M03 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100400Z 36004KT 9999 BKN045 M05/M05 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100330Z 01004KT 9999 SCT045 M05/M05 Q1032 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100300Z 36003KT 9999 SCT045 M04/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100230Z 34002KT 9999 SCT045 M02/M03 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100200Z 01003KT CAVOK M03/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100130Z 36004KT CAVOK M04/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100100Z 34002KT CAVOK M03/M03 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100030Z 33003KT CAVOK M01/M02 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 100000Z 36003KT CAVOK M02/M02 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092330Z 34002KT CAVOK M04/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092300Z 35002KT CAVOK M04/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092230Z 34003KT CAVOK M03/M04 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092200Z 36003KT CAVOK 02/M00 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092130Z 36003KT 9999 FEW022 01/M00 Q1034 NOSIG[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]EIDW 092100Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW022 00/M01 Q1033 NOSIG[/FONT]

Speak Now · 10-03-2010 9:19am

If this is correct Su Campu them met Eireann need to stop using the station....remember the reason they gave for not using the Kilkenny station anymore!

Mothman · 10-03-2010 9:56am

I had a rise in temperature at 5am this morning due to cloud cover moving over.

And if there is something in the wing tip vortice theory then why did the temp drop to -1.3C at 8pm before rising again to +2.6C at 10pm?

Su Campu · 10-03-2010 3:40pm

Thinking about it a bit more I'm less and less convinced about the vortex theory, there's usually a simple explanation! :rolleyes:

Looking at the METARs I posted above, the temperature drops and rises coincide with the dissipation and appearance, respectively, of low level clouds (went from Scattered at 2200ft to clear at 10pm, and from Scattered 4300ft to Few at 1700ft at 530am).

So I think we can put it down to radiative effects.

Danno · 10-03-2010 11:54pm

PHEW! I'd hate to see them having to close the station. :P

Neddyusa · 11-03-2010 1:28pm

Been driving around these areas of rural north Dublin/South Meath these past few frosty nights and noticed this huge variation in temps over short distances. Temp was going up and down like a yoyo between +1 and -5 over the space of less than half a mile and all in rural areas. I was observing only the thermometer on the car which I know may not be greatly accurate but from past experience I know it not to be too sensitive and have never seen it to fluctuate so much like that.
Something about these current frosty nights that the low temperatures are much more localised than during the frosts of 'The Big Freeze' ...any explainations? Differing soil types, some of which are retaining the heat from the sunny days maybe???

Su Campu · 11-03-2010 2:44pm

With little or no wind, cold pooling is a big factor. The cold air, being denser, accumulates in lower lying areas, so as you're driving along, going upslope a few meters could take you out of one of these cold pools and into the warmer air above.

highdef · 11-03-2010 2:59pm

Well when I was driving to work on the M50 this morning over the N2, I was glancing towards the city (the views are often nice of the city from this elevated position of almost 100 metres) and could see that there was a definite inversion over the city. The Dublin mountains were about as clear as I've ever seen them and the sky was a deep blue. The snow still very apparent and as it was so clear, the mountains appeared so much closer than normal. However, the lower levels of the Dublin basin were completely covered in a misty haze and it appeared that I was just above this inversion. At this point, I noted the temp being at 4.0c.

By the time I entered the Phoenix Park at castleknock, the temp was at 3.5. Half way down the park and travelling downhill, I entered the haze that I saw from the M50 and the temperature dropped further. It was 2.0 as I left the park. However, this does happen a lot where the temperature at the lower end of the park can be 2c or more lower than the upper end.

Anyway, I'm digressing. Is it possible that the inversion level (presuming my observations this morning were of an inversion) has recently been at the approximate height of the weather station at Dublin airport? When I was on the M50 at Finglas this morning, I would have estimated that I was only a couple of dozen metres above the inversion, at most.....purely going by the upper levels of the mist/haze. Also, at this point I would have been not much more than 10 metres or so above the height of the station in Dublin Airport.

If, hypothetically, the weather station was right at the borderline of the inversion level, could it be possible that slight mixing of the low level air above could be enough to greatly change the temperature? The proximity of the planes taking off and landing could indeed have something to do with it too.

On a personal note, I was driving down the N32 eastbound a few nights ago. At the start of the N32, it was 4.5. After the first roundabout at Baskin, it dropped to 4.0. Then a few hundred metres later it dropped straight down to 1.0 - I've never seen it drop that much so quickly before. And by the time I got to the Malahide Road, it was back to 3.5 and then 4.5 at home in Baldoyle.

Su Campu · 11-03-2010 3:59pm

If you look at Valentia's 6am sounding this morning you can see the difference a few meters makes.

Danno · 12-03-2010 3:32am

Thats some difference SC!!! Some incredibly dry air about there - for Valentia!!!

compsys · 16-04-2010 11:59pm

I see from looking at the Met Éireann site over the past few days that Dublin Airport's mico-climate is back in full force. As was the case in early March, the official lowest observed temperature has been recorded at the station on many of the past few nights.

Can someone explain though how a coastal area can consistently have one of the lowest day-time AND night-time temps in late spring? I thought coastal areas were supposed to be kept cooler because of the sea during the daytime but then slightly warmer at night?

At Dublin Airport over the past two weeks or so we've seen certainly the cooler daytime temps in operation due to the sometimes stiff easterly breeze, but we've also seen significantly colder night-time temperatures as well. This has led to a current mean monthly temp at Dublin Airport of over 1 degree below average, despite every other station recording an above average mean temp so far!

compsys · 03-07-2010 1:54pm

Interesting to see from Met Eiréann's latest monthly statistics that the Dublin Airport station recorded its first above-average mean monthly temperature since November of last year. This means that the station has had six consecutive months of below average temps: a record perhaps?

However, the mean monthly temperature for June of 14.1 C was 'only' 0.7 degrees above the monthly average for the station, compared to a temperature of 1 - 2 degrees above average for almost every other station in the country. This continues Dublin Airport's unusual trend of being significantly colder than almost any of Met Eireann's other stations, despite having long-term mean temperatures that state it should be one of the milder locations.

Again, it seems to be the unusually cold night-time temperatures recorded at the station (especially on clear nights with no wind) that are responsible for the cold statistics.

compsys · 09-07-2013 1:07pm

Just looking at the stats for June and it really hits home once more how bad a location the 'new' Dublin airport station is in.

As is usual, the station recorded some extremely low minimum temperatures during the month of June and on many nights was the coldest station in the country.

DA recorded an average temp of only 12.7 for June, over one degree below average and way below the 13.8 recorded at Phoenix Park, only a few kms away. A difference in monthly temps of over one degree is actually huge, even more so for two stations within practically the same area!

What annoys me though is that this station tends to be the official station for Dublin, despite its bad location. Most weather apps and sites worldwide seem to refer to it when giving a forecast for Dublin and yet it's giving pretty inaccurate temperatures. Even during the day, because it gets affected by the sea breeze, it gives temps that are usually a fair bit lower than what anyone in the city or in the Western suburbs is experiencing.

You have to wonder whether Met E should stop using the station altogether. Indeed, the Met E June Monthly Summary seems to suggest they already are. It says: 'Coldest conditions compared to Long-Term Average (LTA) were at Sherkin Island with a mean temperature of 13.1°C, -0.8°C below its June normal'. However, DA's mean temperature was 12.7, or -0.9C below its June LTA so they appear to have excluded DA's temperature stats altogether (and rightly so!)

Bsal · 09-07-2013 1:32pm

Just to show you here is the weather station at Dublin airport, and where it is located. It is right on the western perimeter, the old one was located in the centre of the airfield.

Bsal · 09-07-2013 1:35pm

By the way does anyone know what the max temperature ever recorded at both old and new weather stations are?

compsys · 12-07-2013 12:07pm

I often use the following site to look up monthly weather data. In the past few days they seem to have changed the data from feeding from the Dublin Airport station to either Casement or Phoenix Park thank God.

Hopefully more sites and apps will follow suit.

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/EIXX0014

FWVT · 12-07-2013 4:15pm

I don't understand why you say the station is in a ridiculous spot. What is wrong with it? Have you been to it? it is fully representative of the area it is located in, i.e. a rural location, with only grass surrounding it and no large roads, walls, buildings, trees, hedges or other items that can trap heat. I would say that of the three stations it is the BEST one for standard siting criteria. Casement has a large concrete apron just north of it and a building just a few metres to its west. Phoenix Park is surrounded by large trees that have grown around it through the years. Both sites therefore suffer from ineffiient radiative cooling as these large obstructions block outgoing radiation as well as radiating their own radiation back at it. Dublin Airport does not suffer this therefore it is probably the best station for rural Co. Dublin.

I agree that it is not representative of the city centre but who says it should be? Most websites use METAR data to represent "cities" but in fact they are showing data for the airport's area.

So please list the faults with Dublin's siting and how it fails to meet WMO standards.

highdef · 12-07-2013 4:38pm

Have to say I agree with FWVT however I would love if Merrion Square stats could be included in general reports as this would reflect conditions in more urban areas. Although it is technically in a green area, it is surrounded by the city. It would be interesting if its reading could be viewed on the Met Eireann website. Curiously, are the current conditions for it available anywhere?

compsys · 12-07-2013 4:46pm

FWVT wrote: »

I don't understand why you say the station is in a ridiculous spot. What is wrong with it? Have you been to it? it is fully representative of the area it is located in, i.e. a rural location, with only grass surrounding it and no large roads, walls, buildings, trees, hedges or other items that can trap heat. I would say that of the three stations it is the BEST one for standard siting criteria. Casement has a large concrete apron just north of it and a building just a few metres to its west. Phoenix Park is surrounded by large trees that have grown around it through the years. Both sites therefore suffer from ineffiient radiative cooling as these large obstructions block outgoing radiation as well as radiating their own radiation back at it. Dublin Airport does not suffer this therefore it is probably the best station for rural Co. Dublin.

I agree that it is not representative of the city centre but who says it should be? Most websites use METAR data to represent "cities" but in fact they are showing data for the airport's area.

So please list the faults with Dublin's siting and how it fails to meet WMO standards.

The station is located in a cold pool and consistently records night time temperatures that are several degrees below the rest of the country. I'm just looking at the facts and figures here which don't lie.

The station has also recently been moved and since it was moved has recorded monthly average temps way below the LTA for the station and way below the rest of the Dublin and Ireland stations.

Last month, despite the good weather, it recorded a monthly temperature almost 1 degree below average and over 1 degree colder than stations situated only a few miles away. A monthly difference of 1 Celsius over the course of an entire month is huge in weather terms, rural location or not.

Just as a station shouldn't be placed in direct sunlight near a window (will record ridiculous daytime max temps) it shouldn't be in a location that records overly low night time temps either.

At the moment, despite the record breaking heat, Dublin Airport's average monthly temp is still below average! (the only station in Ireland).

I actually don't think the station is even representative of its immediate surroundings, let alone the wider Dublin area.

FWVT · 12-07-2013 5:02pm

It's not in a cold pool, there is a slight rise of a few metres around 100 m to its west but the station itself is not in a hollow. the previous site was nearer to both the Bravo taxiways and R16 and ws moved to allow the construction of the west apron. But the station had been moved to that site because the original station was located at the Terminal building and was therefore not ideal. So when you compare current data to climate means you are seeing the problems of the past, not the present. The perfect station has a full hemispherical dome free for radiation to escape in all directions, which is what the current station has and most others don't.

Incidentally, the Phoenix Park and the Dublin station are not in the same general area. They are 8 km apart and both 12 km from the sea but the Phoenix Park is is a suburban area with a large city between it and the sea. Casement is 17 km from both Dublin AP and the sea and also has the city between it and the sea. They are all in different settings.

DOCARCH · 12-07-2013 5:43pm

highdef wrote: »

Have to say I agree with FWVT however I would love if Merrion Square stats could be included in general reports as this would reflect conditions in more urban areas. Although it is technically in a green area, it is surrounded by the city. It would be interesting if its reading could be viewed on the Met Eireann website. Curiously, are the current conditions for it available anywhere?

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

Elmer Blooker · 12-07-2013 11:19pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

I'm not sure if the Botanic gardens, only a stones throw from ME HQ still has a weather station? I remember the ME monthly weather bulletin of August 1990 saying a temp of 31c was recorded there on the 2nd of that month. I remember this because it was and still is the only day in my lifetime that I experienced a temp in excess of 30 in Dublin. The temperature at Dublin airport that day was 28.7c, the highest ever recorded there.
By the way I said in an earlier post today that when it was 11c at D.A. last night I was 16c only a few kms away.

Supercell · 12-07-2013 11:24pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

The Glasnevin site is mainly the building and is surrounded by busy roads, not suitable for a station

Elmer Blooker · 13-07-2013 2:02am

how ironic! at 0100 its 20c at the Airport and only 16c at the Phoenix Park.

I'm 19.3c at the moment

highdef · 13-07-2013 2:32am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

how ironic! at 0100 its 20c at the Airport and only 16c at the Phoenix Park.
I'm 19.3c at the moment

I think the point has been proven. Or maybe Casement is in the wrong place!!! indeed, at 1am Dublin airport appears to have been the highest (official)
night time temperature in the country!

DOCARCH · 13-07-2013 7:25am

Supercell wrote: »

The Glasnevin site is mainly the building and is surrounded by busy roads, not suitable for a station

Tell that to the UKMO...the London Weather Centre! :P

compsys · 13-07-2013 1:08pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

how ironic! at 0100 its 20c at the Airport and only 16c at the Phoenix Park.
I'm 19.3c at the moment

Well, not quite. Yesterday Dublin Airport was again (for I think the 10th day running) the coldest location by night in the county with a minimum of 8.7.

compsys · 13-07-2013 1:25pm

FWVT wrote: »

It's not in a cold pool, there is a slight rise of a few metres around 100 m to its west but the station itself is not in a hollow. the previous site was nearer to both the Bravo taxiways and R16 and ws moved to allow the construction of the west apron. But the station had been moved to that site because the original station was located at the Terminal building and was therefore not ideal. So when you compare current data to climate means you are seeing the problems of the past, not the present. The perfect station has a full hemispherical dome free for radiation to escape in all directions, which is what the current station has and most others don't.

Incidentally, the Phoenix Park and the Dublin station are not in the same general area. They are 8 km apart and both 12 km from the sea but the Phoenix Park is is a suburban area with a large city between it and the sea. Casement is 17 km from both Dublin AP and the sea and also has the city between it and the sea. They are all in different settings.

I accept your point that the 'new' Dublin Airport station might be right for that particular .5 square km location but a. it's not representative of Dublin as a whole even though it tends to be used as Dublin's official weather station and b. I don't think it's really representative of even the smaller North Dublin area that it's in either (though to a lesser extent).

I mean, on almost every night of this warm spell Dublin Airport has recorded a minimum temp way below the minimums forecast by even Met E themselves in their daily forecasts, which can't be right.

Also, there was a night around 2 years ago (see the start of my thread) when Dublin Airport was recording 0C and Casement was recording 7C! That's a huge difference.

I just think Met E needs stations in more realistic locations that are representative of where the majority of the population lives. I mean I live in the CC (like hundreds of thousands of other people) and it's been sweltering each night recently and it definitely hasn't felt like it's gotten down to 7 or 8 degrees at night (which is actually quite cool for July and below the LTA).

MiNdGaM3 · 13-07-2013 1:48pm

But ye have Casement and Phoenix Park?

Met Eireann have limited funds. I'm sure they'd love to have more stations, in more varied locations, but it's just not feasible.
Airports require very accurate weather data, hence all the stations at airports. ME would also contribute their weather data to international collections, and so the stations would have to be standardised according to certain agreed criteria. That excludes urban areas as viable station locations.

compsys · 13-07-2013 2:12pm

MiNdGaM3 wrote: »

But ye have Casement and Phoenix Park?

Met Eireann have limited funds. I'm sure they'd love to have more stations, in more varied locations, but it's just not feasible.
Airports require very accurate weather data, hence all the stations at airports. ME would also contribute their weather data to international collections, and so the stations would have to be standardised according to certain agreed criteria. That excludes urban areas as viable station locations.

Yes, I accept we've Phoenix Park. I just think this station should probably be used more as 'Dublin's' weather station as opposed to Dublin Airport as it's more representative of the wider city and climate.

But it's only since very recently that the data for this station has actually been available on the Met E website, and the site still doesn't give current conditions at the station on the latest reports section of the site. Dublin Airport's weather and temps tends to feed into most weather apps as well which I personally find a bit annoying.

FWVT · 13-07-2013 2:29pm

Who uses it as the main Dublin station? As I said if you have a gripe with websites and apps using the airport's data in the same way they do most other cities then you should take it up with them. The airpor's data do tally with rural north Co. Dublin as I have checked that out, being from there.

Met Eireann have been forecasting minima into single figures of late, it's just that most of the stations suffer from what I outlined above. Shannon, for instance, showed rapid warming each morning this week but only very slow evening cooling (wasn't it still 27 at 11 pm or something?). This is a symptom of the vast concrete and buildings in its vicinity. Compare its hourly graphs on the Daily Data section of met.ie with others (e.g. Gurteen, Mullingar, Dublin Airport) and you'll see the difference in slope. And the Phoenix Park data are available in the current weather section!??

FWVT · 13-07-2013 2:40pm

PS Dublin's minimum this morning was 13.2....exactly the same as Oak Park! Gurteen was 11.5. Both of these stations were hotter than Dublin yesterday.

compsys · 13-07-2013 2:49pm

FWVT wrote: »

Who uses it as the main Dublin station? As I said if you have a gripe with websites and apps using the airport's data in the same way they do most other cities then you should take it up with them. The airpor's data do tally with rural north Co. Dublin as I have checked that out, being from there.

Met Eireann have been forecasting minima into single figures of late, it's just that most of the stations suffer from what I outlined above. Shannon, for instance, showed rapid warming each morning this week but only very slow evening cooling (wasn't it still 27 at 11 pm or something?). This is a symptom of the vast concrete and buildings in its vicinity. Compare its hourly graphs on the Daily Data section of met.ie with others (e.g. Gurteen, Mullingar, Dublin Airport) and you'll see the difference in slope. And the Phoenix Park data are available in the current weather section!??

When have they been forecasting minima of single figures? Can you show an example? I'd happily be proven wrong. Like I said, I haven't seen any recent forecast saying temps would get down to 7 or 8.

Also, complete PP data isn't available in the current weather section of the Met E site. They don't give current conditions, only temps and humidity.

Dublin Airport's micro climate!

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