Dublin Airport's micro climate!

Bsal

Just to show you here is the weather station at Dublin airport, and where it is located. It is right on the western perimeter, the old one was located in the centre of the airfield.

Bsal

By the way does anyone know what the max temperature ever recorded at both old and new weather stations are?

compsys

I often use the following site to look up monthly weather data. In the past few days they seem to have changed the data from feeding from the Dublin Airport station to either Casement or Phoenix Park thank God.

Hopefully more sites and apps will follow suit.

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/EIXX0014

FWVT

I don't understand why you say the station is in a ridiculous spot. What is wrong with it? Have you been to it? it is fully representative of the area it is located in, i.e. a rural location, with only grass surrounding it and no large roads, walls, buildings, trees, hedges or other items that can trap heat. I would say that of the three stations it is the BEST one for standard siting criteria. Casement has a large concrete apron just north of it and a building just a few metres to its west. Phoenix Park is surrounded by large trees that have grown around it through the years. Both sites therefore suffer from ineffiient radiative cooling as these large obstructions block outgoing radiation as well as radiating their own radiation back at it. Dublin Airport does not suffer this therefore it is probably the best station for rural Co. Dublin.

I agree that it is not representative of the city centre but who says it should be? Most websites use METAR data to represent "cities" but in fact they are showing data for the airport's area.

So please list the faults with Dublin's siting and how it fails to meet WMO standards.

highdef

Have to say I agree with FWVT however I would love if Merrion Square stats could be included in general reports as this would reflect conditions in more urban areas. Although it is technically in a green area, it is surrounded by the city. It would be interesting if its reading could be viewed on the Met Eireann website. Curiously, are the current conditions for it available anywhere?

compsys

FWVT wrote: »

I don't understand why you say the station is in a ridiculous spot. What is wrong with it? Have you been to it? it is fully representative of the area it is located in, i.e. a rural location, with only grass surrounding it and no large roads, walls, buildings, trees, hedges or other items that can trap heat. I would say that of the three stations it is the BEST one for standard siting criteria. Casement has a large concrete apron just north of it and a building just a few metres to its west. Phoenix Park is surrounded by large trees that have grown around it through the years. Both sites therefore suffer from ineffiient radiative cooling as these large obstructions block outgoing radiation as well as radiating their own radiation back at it. Dublin Airport does not suffer this therefore it is probably the best station for rural Co. Dublin.

I agree that it is not representative of the city centre but who says it should be? Most websites use METAR data to represent "cities" but in fact they are showing data for the airport's area.

So please list the faults with Dublin's siting and how it fails to meet WMO standards.

The station is located in a cold pool and consistently records night time temperatures that are several degrees below the rest of the country. I'm just looking at the facts and figures here which don't lie.

The station has also recently been moved and since it was moved has recorded monthly average temps way below the LTA for the station and way below the rest of the Dublin and Ireland stations.

Last month, despite the good weather, it recorded a monthly temperature almost 1 degree below average and over 1 degree colder than stations situated only a few miles away. A monthly difference of 1 Celsius over the course of an entire month is huge in weather terms, rural location or not.

Just as a station shouldn't be placed in direct sunlight near a window (will record ridiculous daytime max temps) it shouldn't be in a location that records overly low night time temps either.

At the moment, despite the record breaking heat, Dublin Airport's average monthly temp is still below average! (the only station in Ireland).

I actually don't think the station is even representative of its immediate surroundings, let alone the wider Dublin area.

FWVT

It's not in a cold pool, there is a slight rise of a few metres around 100 m to its west but the station itself is not in a hollow. the previous site was nearer to both the Bravo taxiways and R16 and ws moved to allow the construction of the west apron. But the station had been moved to that site because the original station was located at the Terminal building and was therefore not ideal. So when you compare current data to climate means you are seeing the problems of the past, not the present. The perfect station has a full hemispherical dome free for radiation to escape in all directions, which is what the current station has and most others don't.

Incidentally, the Phoenix Park and the Dublin station are not in the same general area. They are 8 km apart and both 12 km from the sea but the Phoenix Park is is a suburban area with a large city between it and the sea. Casement is 17 km from both Dublin AP and the sea and also has the city between it and the sea. They are all in different settings.

DOCARCH

highdef wrote: »

Have to say I agree with FWVT however I would love if Merrion Square stats could be included in general reports as this would reflect conditions in more urban areas. Although it is technically in a green area, it is surrounded by the city. It would be interesting if its reading could be viewed on the Met Eireann website. Curiously, are the current conditions for it available anywhere?

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

Elmer Blooker

DOCARCH wrote: »

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

I'm not sure if the Botanic gardens, only a stones throw from ME HQ still has a weather station? I remember the ME monthly weather bulletin of August 1990 saying a temp of 31c was recorded there on the 2nd of that month. I remember this because it was and still is the only day in my lifetime that I experienced a temp in excess of 30 in Dublin. The temperature at Dublin airport that day was 28.7c, the highest ever recorded there.
By the way I said in an earlier post today that when it was 11c at D.A. last night I was 16c only a few kms away.

Supercell

DOCARCH wrote: »

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

The Glasnevin site is mainly the building and is surrounded by busy roads, not suitable for a station

Elmer Blooker

how ironic! at 0100 its 20c at the Airport and only 16c at the Phoenix Park.
I'm 19.3c at the moment

highdef

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

how ironic! at 0100 its 20c at the Airport and only 16c at the Phoenix Park.
I'm 19.3c at the moment

I think the point has been proven. Or maybe Casement is in the wrong place!!! indeed, at 1am Dublin airport appears to have been the highest (official)
night time temperature in the country!

DOCARCH

Supercell wrote: »

The Glasnevin site is mainly the building and is surrounded by busy roads, not suitable for a station

Tell that to the UKMO...the London Weather Centre! :P

compsys

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

how ironic! at 0100 its 20c at the Airport and only 16c at the Phoenix Park.
I'm 19.3c at the moment

Well, not quite. Yesterday Dublin Airport was again (for I think the 10th day running) the coldest location by night in the county with a minimum of 8.7.

compsys

FWVT wrote: »

It's not in a cold pool, there is a slight rise of a few metres around 100 m to its west but the station itself is not in a hollow. the previous site was nearer to both the Bravo taxiways and R16 and ws moved to allow the construction of the west apron. But the station had been moved to that site because the original station was located at the Terminal building and was therefore not ideal. So when you compare current data to climate means you are seeing the problems of the past, not the present. The perfect station has a full hemispherical dome free for radiation to escape in all directions, which is what the current station has and most others don't.

Incidentally, the Phoenix Park and the Dublin station are not in the same general area. They are 8 km apart and both 12 km from the sea but the Phoenix Park is is a suburban area with a large city between it and the sea. Casement is 17 km from both Dublin AP and the sea and also has the city between it and the sea. They are all in different settings.

I accept your point that the 'new' Dublin Airport station might be right for that particular .5 square km location but a. it's not representative of Dublin as a whole even though it tends to be used as Dublin's official weather station and b. I don't think it's really representative of even the smaller North Dublin area that it's in either (though to a lesser extent).

I mean, on almost every night of this warm spell Dublin Airport has recorded a minimum temp way below the minimums forecast by even Met E themselves in their daily forecasts, which can't be right.

Also, there was a night around 2 years ago (see the start of my thread) when Dublin Airport was recording 0C and Casement was recording 7C! That's a huge difference.

I just think Met E needs stations in more realistic locations that are representative of where the majority of the population lives. I mean I live in the CC (like hundreds of thousands of other people) and it's been sweltering each night recently and it definitely hasn't felt like it's gotten down to 7 or 8 degrees at night (which is actually quite cool for July and below the LTA).

MiNdGaM3

But ye have Casement and Phoenix Park?

Met Eireann have limited funds. I'm sure they'd love to have more stations, in more varied locations, but it's just not feasible.
Airports require very accurate weather data, hence all the stations at airports. ME would also contribute their weather data to international collections, and so the stations would have to be standardised according to certain agreed criteria. That excludes urban areas as viable station locations.

compsys

MiNdGaM3 wrote: »

But ye have Casement and Phoenix Park?

Met Eireann have limited funds. I'm sure they'd love to have more stations, in more varied locations, but it's just not feasible.
Airports require very accurate weather data, hence all the stations at airports. ME would also contribute their weather data to international collections, and so the stations would have to be standardised according to certain agreed criteria. That excludes urban areas as viable station locations.

Yes, I accept we've Phoenix Park. I just think this station should probably be used more as 'Dublin's' weather station as opposed to Dublin Airport as it's more representative of the wider city and climate.

But it's only since very recently that the data for this station has actually been available on the Met E website, and the site still doesn't give current conditions at the station on the latest reports section of the site. Dublin Airport's weather and temps tends to feed into most weather apps as well which I personally find a bit annoying.

FWVT

Who uses it as the main Dublin station? As I said if you have a gripe with websites and apps using the airport's data in the same way they do most other cities then you should take it up with them. The airpor's data do tally with rural north Co. Dublin as I have checked that out, being from there.

Met Eireann have been forecasting minima into single figures of late, it's just that most of the stations suffer from what I outlined above. Shannon, for instance, showed rapid warming each morning this week but only very slow evening cooling (wasn't it still 27 at 11 pm or something?). This is a symptom of the vast concrete and buildings in its vicinity. Compare its hourly graphs on the Daily Data section of met.ie with others (e.g. Gurteen, Mullingar, Dublin Airport) and you'll see the difference in slope. And the Phoenix Park data are available in the current weather section!??

FWVT

PS Dublin's minimum this morning was 13.2....exactly the same as Oak Park! Gurteen was 11.5. Both of these stations were hotter than Dublin yesterday.

compsys

FWVT wrote: »

Who uses it as the main Dublin station? As I said if you have a gripe with websites and apps using the airport's data in the same way they do most other cities then you should take it up with them. The airpor's data do tally with rural north Co. Dublin as I have checked that out, being from there.

Met Eireann have been forecasting minima into single figures of late, it's just that most of the stations suffer from what I outlined above. Shannon, for instance, showed rapid warming each morning this week but only very slow evening cooling (wasn't it still 27 at 11 pm or something?). This is a symptom of the vast concrete and buildings in its vicinity. Compare its hourly graphs on the Daily Data section of met.ie with others (e.g. Gurteen, Mullingar, Dublin Airport) and you'll see the difference in slope. And the Phoenix Park data are available in the current weather section!??

When have they been forecasting minima of single figures? Can you show an example? I'd happily be proven wrong. Like I said, I haven't seen any recent forecast saying temps would get down to 7 or 8.

Also, complete PP data isn't available in the current weather section of the Met E site. They don't give current conditions, only temps and humidity.

Elmer Blooker

DOCARCH wrote: »

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

it's interesting to note that the official highest January temperature was 18.5c at Glasnevin on 10-1-98 but I am almost certain that this was recorded at the Botanic Gardens and not HQ.

Mothman

compsys wrote: »

Well, not quite. Yesterday Dublin Airport was again (for I think the 10th day running) the coldest location by night in the county with a minimum of 8.7.

FWVT wrote: »

PS Dublin's minimum this morning was 13.2....exactly the same as Oak Park! Gurteen was 11.5. Both of these stations were hotter than Dublin yesterday.

I record mins often quite similar to Dublin AP at my climate station

8.1C and 13.2C respectively

FWVT

compsys wrote: »

When have they been forecasting minima of single figures? Can you show an example? I'd happily be proven wrong. Like I said, I haven't seen any recent forecast saying temps would get down to 7 or 8.

Also, complete PP data isn't available in the current weather section of the Met E site. They don't give current conditions, only temps and humidity.

Unfortunately I can't prove what their forecasts said as I don't have a record but I did find it surprising at the time I read it. I think it was around mid-week - maybe someone has a record.

The other stations recently added to the site (Athenry, Dunsany, etc.) don't have current weather either but as it's temperature we're talking about it doesn't really matter. Both of the other two Dublin stations are manned so they can give a fairly good idea of weather in the PP, which is almost half way between the two.

I note that PP has never reported windspeeds, however, and I would reckon it's probably due to the point I made about its sheltered location.

Danno

Firstly, instead of bashing Met Eireann over the DA data one should try to understand WHY it is cooler.

- Soil type, I would wager a guess that a gentle gravel ridge covers the area... if you look at google maps sat view then you notice a quarry to the west of the runway. Gravel/sand ridges are notorious for helping rapid radiate cooling.

- Wind direction, For this it would be lovely to have live data (every 2sec or 3sec) and see what way the breezes are operating there. My hunch is that the Dublin City UHI causes a slight N to NNW breeze to develop on the otherwise calm nights, drawing in cooler air from the rural areas. When this cool air meets the boundary (M50 north might have a role to play here as it's elevated for alot of the northern cross route) it pools up in the general Dubber-Silogue-Merryfalls area backing up then to the Airport station itself. Note the area just to the southwest of the Apt station is called "Coldwinters" a clue in the name to the area?

Secondly, those referring to the LTA for DubApt should keep in mind that the LTAs are comparing the recent data against the previous sites within the perimeter of DubApt.

- Perhaps MetE could homogenize the older data to reflect the current site?

FWVT

Yes, Kilkenny was sandy soil which is why it gave some of the hottest AND coldest temperatures in the country. If you look at Dublin's grass minima they're usually a few degrees less than Casement, which supports the radiative theory.

whitebriar

There is nothing wrong with the now location of the Dub weather station.

It is very representative of the area.I wouldn't recommend putting it in the bus car park or putting a heater beside it :rolleyes:

It's not reasonable to expect a UHI to be present at the airport.

To a purist,weather temperature is not just what you get out of the wind,behind a hedge or surrounded by concrete,its the bigger picture.UHI's are interesting and it is nice if it warms you but they are other than that irrelevant in the bigger scheme.
The only affect I think they have on weather apart from localised heat is that extra degree that makes the urban snow in Irelands marginal set up melt quicker or fall as rain or dissipate frost.

Real heat over a wide area can trigger a thunderstorm,a UHI cannot for example or have any other influence bar local heat.
Most sheltered urban gardens are uhi's within uhi's but even more irrelevant except to the people in the garden.

It could be 100f on a court in Wimbledon for example but on a day it is,you wont hear that used as that days London temperature or a forecast for London.

Quickelles

Someone mentioned that DA recorded six straight months below the long term average; but Casement looks as if this month will be it's first month with an average temp higher than the LTA since August 2012.

January equalled the LTA and all the other months were below.

That's a ten month streak.

Mothman

Below LTA here in Ashford every month since Mar 2012 apart from Aug which was +0.1C

octo

DOCARCH wrote: »

AFAIK, the Merrion Square 'site' is on the rooftop of one of the buildings rather than in the park itself.

Not sure why ME HQ in Glasnevin couldn't give us some data..pretty sure they must have a station there?

The Merrion Square station is in the gardens of Leinster House, just beside the natural history museum. The stevenson screen can be seen through the railings. The merrion square data is reported in the monthly bulletins

DOCARCH

octo wrote: »

The Merrion Square station is in the gardens of Leinster House, just beside the natural history museum. The stevenson screen can be seen through the railings.

As they say...I was not aware of that. Every day is a learning day.