M50 Congestion

sharper · 25-10-2019 9:05am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The M50 urgently needs an extra 3 lanes each way and new flyovers to resolve the problem.

The thing is all that traffic is going somewhere that doesn't have the capacity to handle it either.

I see this all the time in my morning commute. If the roads into Dublin flow pretty freely everything gets choked up on the quays and traffic has to queue all the way back.

It would be pretty fun to have a Dublin City traffic simulator to play around with but I'm pretty sure you'll always hit a chokepoint unless you're willing to start building and expanding roads all over.

crossman47 · 25-10-2019 9:12am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Theres also the luas which runs the width of a road away from TV3, but has no stop there, so loads of people working in Ballymount who could get a tram, drive instead.

Ah now. The Kingswood stop is a ten minute walk from TV3. How close do you have to make a stop?

First Up · 25-10-2019 9:17am

I raise the problem about bad driver behaviour causing accidents and 99% of the replies are about extra lanes etc.

That says a lot.

Idbatterim · 25-10-2019 10:16am

I don’t agree with more lanes on m50 due to cost. But I stand by the Eastern bypass. It could bring commuters to the major trip generators north and south by bus , of course it avoids City Centre. But you have the metro for that , if it ever gets built ...

Magicbasterder, I agree with a lot of what you say. But the way a lot of west Dublin has been built , particularly west Dublin, I don’t think there is a chance in hell you’ll get people out of their cars in serious numbers. They can’t even provide the backbone of a most basic public transport here. By comparison what you propose and would be the case in any other European country with proper infrastructure, is lie in the sky stuff here in my opinion ...

markpb · 25-10-2019 12:28pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I don’t agree with more lanes on m50 due to cost. But I stand by the Eastern bypass. It could bring commuters to the major trip generators north and south by bus , of course it avoids City Centre. But you have the metro for that , if it ever gets built ...

Magicbasterder, I agree with a lot of what you say. But the way a lot of west Dublin has been built , particularly west Dublin, I don’t think there is a chance in hell you’ll get people out of their cars in serious numbers. They can’t even provide the backbone of a most basic public transport here. By comparison what you propose and would be the case in any other European country with proper infrastructure, is lie in the sky stuff here in my opinion ...

Why do you think building a road to the east of the city will solve congestion in a way that building more work to the west of the city won't? It will have exactly the same problem. It will add extra road capacity, give people more options for places to drive, the new motorway will fill up and we'll be talking about whether we should build another motorway somewhere or add more lanes to the existing motorways.

The reason we can't build decent public transport is because people keep thinking that building more roads is a viable alternative. There's nothing stopping us building a metro except political will.

loyatemu · 25-10-2019 12:42pm

First Up wrote: »

I raise the problem about bad driver behaviour causing accidents and 99% of the replies are about extra lanes etc.

That says a lot.

the driving on the M50 may be bad, but it's the volume of traffic that increases the statistical likelihood of accidents - more traffic, more cars, more frustration, more drivers making stupid decisions = more accidents, and the cycle starts over. I'm not advocating extra lanes btw - at the end of the day, cars are driven by humans, and humans are idiots fallible.

First Up · 25-10-2019 12:44pm

loyatemu wrote: »

the driving on the M50 may be bad, but it's the volume of traffic that increases the statistical likelihood of accidents - more traffic, more cars, more frustration, more drivers making stupid decisions = more accidents, and the cycle starts over. I'm not advocating extra lanes btw - at the end of the day, cars are driven by humans, and humans are idiots fallible.

so what's easier to do? Build another motorway or improve how people drive on the existing one?

loyatemu · 25-10-2019 1:06pm

First Up wrote: »

so what's easier to do? Build another motorway or improve how people drive on the existing one?

as others have said, it's over capacity - minor accidents are inevitable, it's not exclusive to the M50 or even Ireland.

Salary Negotiator · 25-10-2019 1:15pm

First Up wrote: »

so what's easier to do? Build another motorway or improve how people drive on the existing one?

Neither are easy and neither are the solution. The solution, which also isn't easy, is to reduce the number of vehicles using it.

First Up · 25-10-2019 1:26pm

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

Neither are easy and neither are the solution. The solution, which also isn't easy, is to reduce the number of vehicles using it.

You can only do that by providing alternative means of transport, or building more roads. Providing alternative means of transport for people using an orbital motorway will take a lot of time and money. So will providing alternatives roads.

Some rush hour congestion on the M50 is unavoidable but the back ups caused by closure of one or two lanes for fender benders (which by definition take place at low speed) is cheap, quick and eminently achievable with a bit of effort - and enforcement.

Isambard · 25-10-2019 1:30pm

the M50 was built too close to the City. As a bypass it needs to keep bypassing traffic clear of city traffic and this it fails to do. It's basically used as a inner ring road for traffic hopping out of the city, around and then back in.

The solution would be a proper bypass from somewhere around Portlaoise or Kildare across to the M1 around Drogheda, but the cost would be huge.

c.p.w.g.w · 25-10-2019 1:33pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

a stat i'm fond of repeating. if you were to take a three lane road and apply a three second rule to it (which i know motorists in general ignore, which is what leads to the crashes on the m50), the road can carry one vehicle per second, or 3,600 vehicles per hour. if they were all cars, and you apply the 1.2 occupants rule, that's 4,320 people per hour (in one direction) on a three lane road/motorway.
a luas green line tram has a capacity of 358, and if you have a tram once every three minutes, a max capacity of 7,160.
so a light rail system has one and a half times the safe carrying capacity of a three lane motorway, unless you can convince more people to car pool.

in short, it should be rail we're building, not roads.

I've lived and worked in London in the past. Traffic was bad at times in London but never experienced the same kinda delays I've had in Dublin. Certainly helped by a fantastic public transport.

First Up · 25-10-2019 1:34pm

None of which has anything to do with the bad driving that causes the biggest hold ups.

I'm curious why posters here are so reluctant to face that.

Salary Negotiator · 25-10-2019 1:43pm

First Up wrote: »

None of which has anything to do with the bad driving that causes the biggest hold ups.

I'm curious why posters here are so reluctant to face that.

Because bad driving isn't the main cause, volume is.

There's less than 2 collisions on the M50 each day and yet there are delays in both directions during rush hour. There are just too many vehicles using the road each day.

Idbatterim · 25-10-2019 1:48pm

Mark I think they should build easternbypass, one lane for public transport only at peak hour. Do multipoint tolling on m50. Get rid of east link tolll , it’s idiocy.

What does Dublin need to spend to bring Rail up to scratch here? Ten billion? Du, Dublin metro, there’s the issue with line south of greystones. Metro west ? Few more luas lines potentially.

Eastern bypass and metro would potentially offer enough capacity to sort it the irrevocable damage and farce sprawl that is the development particularly to the west of the city...

So no need for metro west , if we can’t get Dublin metro line built. Metro west is science fiction stuff !

Idbatterim · 25-10-2019 1:49pm

Isambard wrote: »

the M50 was built too close to the City. As a bypass it needs to keep bypassing traffic clear of city traffic and this it fails to do. It's basically used as a inner ring road for traffic hopping out of the city, around and then back in.

The solution would be a proper bypass from somewhere around Portlaoise or Kildare across to the M1 around Drogheda, but the cost would be huge.

The outer bypass is a ludicrous idea on so many levels!

First Up · 25-10-2019 1:52pm

Salary Negotiator wrote:

There's less than 2 collisions on the M50 each day and yet there are delays in both directions during rush hour. There are just too many vehicles using the road each day.

Less than two a day? I'd be interested to know more about that because there seems to be one blocking the road almost every time I use it.

loyatemu · 25-10-2019 1:56pm

Isambard wrote: »

The solution would be a proper bypass from somewhere around Portlaoise or Kildare across to the M1 around Drogheda, but the cost would be huge.

solution to what, the traffic on the M50 is mostly going to/from places in and around Dublin. How would spending 100s of millions on an outer ring improve things?

is_that_so · 25-10-2019 2:00pm

First Up wrote: »

Less than two a day? I'd be interested to know more about that because there seems to be one blocking the road almost every time I use it.

If you're (stuck) on it for any length of time you'll probably meet those 1-2 accidents anyway. Most of them are minor tips but the effect on the road is rapidly cumulative.

Salary Negotiator · 25-10-2019 2:07pm

First Up wrote: »

Less than two a day? I'd be interested to know more about that because there seems to be one blocking the road almost every time I use it.

Taken from the Journal here

It also states that the number of collisions has increased from 39 per month pre - Jan 2018 to about 50 per month post Jan 2018 - this is a fairly considerable increase and I doubt driving standards increased or decreased in that time, so the variable is the number of vehicles.

Del2005 · 25-10-2019 2:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Mark I think they should build easternbypass, one lane for public transport only at peak hour. Do multipoint tolling on m50. Get rid of east link tolll , it’s idiocy.

Where will the cars go when you introduce multi point tolling on the M50? Into the surrounding roads which definitely don't have the capacity for the traffic.

At rush hour public transport is jammed so there's no space for the car commuters there or if they do get on it'll be the terminus so the regular users will be passed. The carrot has to be built before more stick is used. Build DU and a proper metro on the green line, not the BS of the current plan, then do the bus connects, again for the majority not the NIMBYS. Then the stick can come out.

Idbatterim · 25-10-2019 2:18pm

Multipoint tolling at peak hours ... some people go through town to avoid m50 toll. Could they not place 1c extra on fuel for example to get rid of it?

alexjp · 25-10-2019 2:34pm

What Dublin need is less people using cars. The goverment has to invest masively in public transport (metro, Luas, Dart, bus corridors, cicle lanes...) and allow the buildings to grow higher in the city centre.

First Up · 25-10-2019 3:14pm

is_that_so wrote:

If you're (stuck) on it for any length of time you'll probably meet those 1-2 accidents anyway. Most of them are minor tips but the effect on the road is rapidly cumulative.

Don't I know it. And the infuriating bit is that they happen between cars going in the same direction and usually at 40-50 kph max. If people drove in the proper lane and put their phones away we'd all save a lot of time.

Del2005 · 25-10-2019 3:14pm

alexjp wrote: »

What Dublin need is less people using cars. The goverment has to invest masively in public transport (metro, Luas, Dart, bus corridors, cicle lanes...) and allow the buildings to grow higher in the city centre.

And stop building semi D or detached housing estates in the middle of the countryside.

AulWan · 25-10-2019 3:39pm

crossman47 wrote: »

Ah now. The Kingswood stop is a ten minute walk from TV3. How close do you have to make a stop?

More like 20 minutes. Its close to 1.5km. Horrible walk on a day like today.

magicbastarder · 26-10-2019 12:21am

funny enough, i witnessed what was almost certainly a rear ending happening two cars behind us on the M50 today as we queued to come off at the cork exit, southbound, just after having passed the aftermath of another rear ender.

loyatemu · 26-10-2019 12:24am

First Up wrote: »

Don't I know it. And the infuriating bit is that they happen between cars going in the same direction and usually at 40-50 kph max. If people drove in the proper lane and put their phones away we'd all save a lot of time.

these prangs were happening before smart-phones were a thing. In heavy slow moving traffic people just lose their concentration, or become frustrated and drive stupidly.

magicbastarder · 26-10-2019 12:31am

First Up wrote: »

None of which has anything to do with the bad driving that causes the biggest hold ups.

I'm curious why posters here are so reluctant to face that.

it can be both, though.
it's bad driving practice to drive too close to the car in front. but if everyone drove a safe distance from the car in front, the number of cars the M50 holds would plummet.

you simply *cannot* have the volume of traffic the M50 holds, and have no accidents. it can't be fixed purely by driver education.

if everyone on the M50 drove at 60km/h, and adhered to the 3 second safety rule, they would take up about 60m of road. which means that each kilometre can hold 17 cars per lane, or about 50 across the three lanes. so the entire instantaneous capacity of the 30km stretch southbound from the M1 to sandyford would be 1500 vehicles, at full safe capacity. we're asking it to hold far, far more than that though.

and again, that shows how godawfully inefficient motorways are at moving people around.

Del2005 · 26-10-2019 7:35am

magicbastarder wrote: »

it can be both, though.
it's bad driving practice to drive too close to the car in front. but if everyone drove a safe distance from the car in front, the number of cars the M50 holds would plummet.

you simply *cannot* have the volume of traffic the M50 holds, and have no accidents. it can't be fixed purely by driver education.

if everyone on the M50 drove at 60km/h, and adhered to the 3 second safety rule, they would take up about 60m of road. which means that each kilometre can hold 17 cars per lane, or about 50 across the three lanes. so the entire instantaneous capacity of the 30km stretch southbound from the M1 to sandyford would be 1500 vehicles, at full safe capacity. we're asking it to hold far, far more than that though.

and again, that shows how godawfully inefficient motorways are at moving people around.

That's why they should have variable speed limits. The problem is people braking from driving too close and at higher speeds the affect is magnified. If everyone was doing 50km/h the traffic would be smoother and would flow better with less chance of crashes. BTW its a 2 second rule.

I luckily don't use the motorways much but yesterday I was going North on the M50 and people where not leaving any gaps. There was 3 cars ahead of me that where closer together than the 2 second gap I'd left, anytime I tried to be safe and leave 4 seconds it was filled. The other lanes were as bad.

26-10-2019 7:45am

mugsymugsy wrote: »

First time driving on m50 in a while. Left dundrum at 4 and it took about 45 mins to blanch exit.

Combination of idiots lane changing to get one car ahead and people using the slip ways for late re entry. Rain probably didn't help.

Glad I no longer use it on a regular basis.

This is the main issue with all driving here; driver attitude. Always have to be one car ahead, always have to queue skip. People go on about speeding and phones, etc, but all these accidents in morning and evening runs are people doing dodgy lane changes that they didn’t need to do. Books should be gone for a year minimum.

magicbastarder · 26-10-2019 8:59am

Del2005 wrote: »

BTW its a 2 second rule.

I've heard both, and since it's not actually official, I don't think there's a 'correct' version of it. Anyway, at two seconds, the capacity would jump to 2,300 or so.

The J Stands for Jay · 26-10-2019 10:11am

magicbastarder wrote: »

I've heard both, and since it's not actually official, I don't think there's a 'correct' version of it. Anyway, at two seconds, the capacity would jump to 2,300 or so.

The 2 second rule is the one they question you on in the driving test.

First Up · 26-10-2019 1:18pm

Salary Negotiator wrote:

It also states that the number of collisions has increased from 39 per month pre - Jan 2018 to about 50 per month post Jan 2018 - this is a fairly considerable increase and I doubt driving standards increased or decreased in that time, so the variable is the number of vehicles.

I wonder how many of the 50 are rear endings and how many are from careless lane changes? Either way, they are all avoidable.

Are any prosecuted? Just paying for the damage you cause isn't enough; there should be a fine/points for messing up everyone else. That would concentrate minds.

I suppose some "breakdowns" are genuine car failures but anyone who runs out of fuel deserves to pay a whopping fine too.

u140acro3xs7dm · 26-10-2019 2:23pm

It's hard to drive properly on the M50. You leave a proper 2 second gap, and a car jumps into the space, you brake and pull back, another car jumps in etc. It's so infuriating, 5km down the road, and you can still see the lane hopper, who after several lane changes, has gotten 2 car lengths ahead.

Duckjob · 26-10-2019 10:39pm

On friday I was just coming onto the M1 from Collins Ave. junction. Rain all day so the roads were full of rain water, spray etc.

A taxi driver came from the left lane flying across and in behind me so that his front bumper was virtually riding my back bumper, trying to push me to speed in the narrow 60kph zone before you get onto the M1 proper.

I just put on the hazards and eased off the gas and let myself gently lose speed. He finally realised he wasnt going to be able to bully me and backed off.

Further on, where the slip road joins the motorway just nth of the port tunnel I accelerated promptly up to 80kph limit. A few moments later the "Professional Driver" blasts past in the inner lane doing I would say 100kph+, and flipping me the bird from inside the driver window.

This is precisely the sort of dangerous ignoramus that is causing traffic chaos on motorways and other roads week in week out.

endacl · 26-10-2019 10:42pm

If lane discipline was enforced with an iron fist on the M50, the M50 would work properly.

Last Stop · 26-10-2019 11:47pm

A new Liffey bridge in west Dublin would male a huge difference to M50 traffic.
Personally I think 3 new bridges are needed:
1) a public transport only bridge on the alignment of Metro West. This would have 2 bus lanes and 2 tram lanes for Metro West in the future.
2) an extension of the ORR from its current end point at the N4 to Ongar
3) part the new proposed road which would act as the boundary to Dublin’s continuous sprawl through St Catherine’s Park, tying in with number 2.

If all three of the above were built, numbers on the M50 would drop significantly.

Even just building the first one which would offer reliable quick journey times between Tallaght - Blanch or Liffey Valley - Blanch would have a huge impact.
It wouldn’t be that expensive, €100m max which is pretty much what the M50 toll makes (gross) in a year.
Unfortunately, being so reliant on the M50 suits the toll operators so it’s unlikely it’s gong to happen.

It’s finny because Dublin isn’t actually that sprawled, it’s the lack of investment in these sort of projects that cripples it. If you could take all local traffic (or at least a major proration of it) off the M50, it could go back to doing what it was designed to do and act as a motorway bypass of Dublin.

The improvement of orbital cross country routes such as the N80 and N52 would also help enormously

jesus_thats_gre · 26-10-2019 11:48pm

endacl wrote: »

If lane discipline was enforced with an iron fist on the M50, the M50 would work properly.

Praise the lord!!

Atlantic Dawn · 26-10-2019 11:50pm

endacl wrote: »

If lane discipline was enforced with an iron fist on the M50, the M50 would work properly.

During peak times it's like a racetrack, it's everyone for themselves.

First Up · 27-10-2019 12:12am

Atlantic Dawn wrote:

During peak times it's like a racetrack, it's everyone for themselves.

At peak times it makes sense to use all three lanes; everyone is going at much the same speed. But changing lanes still needs to be done with care and courtesy - both frequently lacking.

kravmaga · 27-10-2019 8:32pm

We need to build the M47, Leinster outer orbital motorway

http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/futures/m47.html

27-10-2019 8:34pm

Where do they get the names from?

magicbastarder · 27-10-2019 10:21pm

from reading the link, the motorway would have combined the n4 and n7, hence the M47, by the looks of it.

Del2005 · 28-10-2019 8:09am

First Up wrote: »

At peak times it makes sense to use all three lanes; everyone is going at much the same speed. But changing lanes still needs to be done with care and courtesy - both frequently lacking.

It's also lacking from the people in the lane you want to enter. I've often been in the overtaking lane looking for a gap to get into the other overtaking lane and the drivers don't leave any gaps, sticking on the left indicator makes no difference eventually you have to get assertive. Then when you get to the driving lane it's empty!

First Up · 28-10-2019 8:31am

Del2005 wrote:

It's also lacking from the people in the lane you want to enter. I've often been in the overtaking lane looking for a gap to get into the other overtaking lane and the drivers don't leave any gaps, sticking on the left indicator makes no difference eventually you have to get assertive. Then when you get to the driving lane it's empty!

The middle lane is hugely popular on the M50. Some people wouldn't dream of being anywhere else.

I have long given up trying to overtake by changing to outer lanes. If the inside (driving) lane is empty or moving quicker, just stay there.

Panrich · 28-10-2019 8:44am

First Up wrote: »

The middle lane is hugely popular on the M50. Some people wouldn't dream of being anywhere else.
......

The exception I’ve found is that the inside lane suddenly becomes very popular with these people as others begin to merge from an on ramp.

Salary Negotiator · 28-10-2019 11:14am

Panrich wrote: »

The exception I’ve found is that the inside lane suddenly becomes very popular with these people as others begin to merge from an on ramp.

Merging in general seems to be an issue for many drivers.

Joining the M50 Northbound from the N7 drivers regularly stop while waiting for a gap to merge into even through there’s an auxiliary lane all the way up to J7/N4.

Markcheese · 29-10-2019 4:40pm

kravmaga wrote: »

We need to build the M47, Leinster outer orbital motorway

http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/futures/m47.html

Would that not just rapidly become the same as the m50, and encourage further urban sprawl, (which would make it more difficult to have a decent public transport system,)

veryangryman · 30-10-2019 11:42am

Markcheese wrote: »

Would that not just rapidly become the same as the m50, and encourage further urban sprawl, (which would make it more difficult to have a decent public transport system,)

It would not. A bypass that far away would be used by those avoiding Dublin altogether, not by those living and working in the city and county.

M50 is currently a relief road but is direct route to port and airport. So its usage will always be high. Non Dublin county traffic is minimal percentage wise i have to imagine

M50 Congestion

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