General Star Trek thread

SarahBM wrote: »

I watched the first 2 episodes of DS9 last night. I love chief O'Brien!!!

You're in for such a treat when it gets going - there's so, so many great characters in it. Garak is incredibly well played

crazyderk wrote: »

I like how every race in the universe knows about how long we measure time

"You have 1 hour to make your decision" well thanks Mr Klingon/Romulun/cardassian. That's nice of you.

Oh wait maybe it's the universal translater? If that's the case it's very coincidental that it's always an even number like 5 minutes or 1 hour

Like is a minute on the Klingon home world a minute on earth or is it like 37 seconds?

I'd like to hear "you have 3 minutes and 27 seconds to surrender"

The Federation is the Rome or the British Empire of its day. As such common measurements and phrases have probably permeated throughout the neighbouring nations that haven't been assimilated yet.

Indricotherium wrote: »

The Federation is the Rome or the British Empire of its day. As such common measurements and phrases have probably permeated throughout the neighbouring nations that haven't been assimilated yet.

You've some bizarre notions of the Federation dude You constantly equate the UFP to maurading military empires, & above you describe the process of a planet applying for membership into the UFP as 'assimilation', sounds almost Borg'esque. While you've been able to describe some of the darker elements of the UFP, these have without fail all been rogue-like elements (Section 31, coup attempts by a handful high ranking xenophobic officers over the years etc). You seem to let the few bad examples, form the basis of your conception of the entire UFP while completely disregarding the countless good examples of how its an organisation built on solidly ethical principles.

If the UFP was interested in 'assimilating' planets, it wouldn't have denied membership to Bajor several times. Picard would never have left Malcor III when requested to do so by the Prime Minister, there would be far less emphasis on the prime directive, there wouldn't be a federation council, & many, many other things that suggest the UFP is indeed, a benign organisation that is interested in peace above all else. Examples like the plan to destroy the Borg collective (I, Borg) demonstrate the ethical quandaries faced by such an act, & ultimately, the plan didn't go ahead because of the morals of one Starfleet Officer. Conversely, one could argue that not destroying the collective was an amoral thing to do, leaving billions (trillions?) of kidnapped people doomed to robotic slavery only existing to kill/assimilate/conquer and have no free will of their own.

SarahBM wrote: »

I just want to know how the tosca in Captive Pursuit knew what the chief was saying despite never having been encountered. How can the universal translator work for a language that's never been encountered!!!

Anyway I am reading too much into it

You could say the same about many races in Trek, I'd say across TNG they had several surprise first contact situations & miraculously they could communicate...even the universal translator could translate the bizarre language from Darmok....it just couldn't account for context.

Don't fight it Sarah...let it take you

This guy does good reviews of pretty much everything but primarily star trek:

http://sfdebris.com/index.php

Myrddin wrote: »

You've some bizarre notions of the Federation dude You constantly equate the UFP to maurading military empires, & above you describe the process of a planet applying for membership into the UFP as 'assimilation', sounds almost Borg'esque. While you've been able to describe some of the darker elements of the UFP, these have without fail all been rogue-like elements (Section 31, coup attempts by a handful high ranking xenophobic officers over the years etc). You seem to let the few bad examples, form the basis of your conception of the entire UFP while completely disregarding the countless good examples of how its an organisation built on solidly ethical principles.

If the UFP was interested in 'assimilating' planets, it wouldn't have denied membership to Bajor several times. Picard would never have left Malcor III when requested to do so by the Prime Minister, there would be far less emphasis on the prime directive, there wouldn't be a federation council, & many, many other things that suggest the UFP is indeed, a benign organisation that is interested in peace above all else. Examples like the plan to destroy the Borg collective (I, Borg) demonstrate the ethical quandaries faced by such an act, & ultimately, the plan didn't go ahead because of the morals of one Starfleet Officer. Conversely, one could argue that not destroying the collective was an amoral thing to do, leaving billions (trillions?) of kidnapped people doomed to robotic slavery only existing to kill/assimilate/conquer and have no free will of their own.

Look beyond the limited point of view of the starlet crew that the shows focus on.

The Borg are seen by the main characters as a varelse race who are the very anthesis of the Federation. This simply is not true. Insights into the Borg hive are revealed via Seven of Nine.

It is a society of countless races, living together in perfect harmony. Linked at the mind. Perfect communication. No disputes, no strife, no war. I might add that all are totally equal. Seven often speaks almost lovingly of the Borg. She even speaks of the immortality granted by being part of the hive mind.

Like most Borg who are members of the collective, for more than a couple of days, she is desperate to rejoin the collective. Not the first tie this has been shown. Borg who are separated from the collective, often form their own mini collective.

While the Federation presents itself as a Utopic equal society, it simply isn't. Decades of constant war, multiple military coups, relocating colonists for the greater good, parents stepping outside the law to genetically modify their children, just to keep up, desperately human dominated military. These aren't the occasional rogue element, it is in constant turmoil.

The Federation is predicated on constant expansion. Ship after ship, pouring beyond its borders annexing neighbours. This leads to the constant war it is embroiled in. The Klingons, The Romulans, The Cardassians, , the Dominion, The Borg, the list goes on. All encountered by the Federation and immediately dragged into war.

Every single time the Borg are encountered, it is very clearly shown, that they do not attack unless threatened. There is no excuse for war with the Borg. They can be communicated with, and they can be reasoned with. They are also not the aggressors in their conflict with the Federation.

degrassinoel wrote: »

at tenagra, with his sails unfurled :P

I might add that the Borg would have absolutely no issues communicating with the Tamarians.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Look beyond the limited point of view of the starlet crew that the shows focus on.

Those 'limited' points of view, serve to offer us the human perspective, the perspective of ourselves & we're asked what would we do in those situations. Further, it's not just Starfleet's perspective we see from Star Trek, there are other races, civilians, good guys, bad guys and everything in between. I'll address your observations below, some of them have merit, others are completely wrong and don't stand up at all in the face of contrary evidence.

The Borg are seen by the main characters as a varelse race who are the very anthesis of the Federation. This simply is not true. Insights into the Borg hive are revealed via Seven of Nine. It is a society of countless races, living together in perfect harmony. Linked at the mind. Perfect communication. No disputes, no strife, no war. I might add that all are totally equal. Seven often speaks almost lovingly of the Borg. She even speaks of the immortality granted by being part of the hive mind.

Lets begin here. You say the Borg are the very anthesis of the Federation, but the reality is, the Borg collective is the anthesis of humanity itself. "A society of countless races living together in perfect harmony" puts a very different spin on the collective compared to what it actually is. Lets say we're discussing this for someone who has no idea what the Borg are:

The Borg is a collective of likely billions of individuals who were forcibly, involuntarily and aggressively assimilated into this collective. At the point of assimilation, the individual is injected with nano-probes, which set about rewriting the DNA of that person, technological implants begin to grow in the body, the person is stripped of their memories, identity, and will power. From there, they become a drone. This drone operates on sets of instructions they receive, carrying out functions like repair, attack, assimilate, regenerate and so forth. The person, as they were, is lost. The only escape from this collective, is either death, or by being rescued by whatever method. If rescued, the person if their lucky will have very little memory of their life, they'll have huge difficulty with emotional scarring, they'll not be able to integrate well into everyday life, and they'll have large issues with the sense of freedom they now have - in essence, coping is difficult. Like a severe form of PTSD really. All of this is what we see on screen, & can't be twisted or turned around, as far as Trek goes this is fact.

So rather than the peaceful utopia you portray of the collective, it is in fact a group of people, robbed of their identities, personalities and memories forced into slave like labour. The reason Seven speaks fondly of the Borg, is because of the extreme difficulty she (and others) face trying to reintegrate into society, and back to the life that were taken forcibly from her. You could equate it to a drug addict coming off drugs, struggling to adapt to life without them, and just feeling that it was easier to stay on drugs. This however, doesn't mean that drugs are a good thing. What of Picard, he didn't speak lovingly of the collective? What of Hugh? He seemed to enjoy being free of the collective and being an individual? What of the Borg that Lor 'freed'? They weren't in a rush to go back and be assimilated...

Like most Borg who are members of the collective, for more than a couple of days, she is desperate to rejoin the collective. Not the first tie this has been shown. Borg who are separated from the collective, often form their own mini collective.

This is true, but I've explained it above. The overwhelming struggle to regain their stolen independence is often a profound struggle for those who are freed of the collective. The immediate reaction is to get away from this difficulty, again, much like the drug addict mentioned above. This is a flight reaction, in a fight or flight situation. It doesn't last, in any case.

While the Federation presents itself as a Utopic equal society, it simply isn't. Decades of constant war, multiple military coups, relocating colonists for the greater good, parents stepping outside the law to genetically modify their children, just to keep up, desperately human dominated military. These aren't the occasional rogue element, it is in constant turmoil.

While it might not be a veritable utopia, it isn't what you portray either. Lets address your points.

Constant War

The Klingon War was a result of a planetary border dispute between both borders. When the Klingons issued an ultimatum for the Federation to withdraw (from an are outside of Klingon space), the Federation didn't withdraw & the Klingons declared war and struck first.

The Romulan War was as a result of the formation of peaceful allinaces between Earth and several other races. The Romulans seen this an unacceptable, & rather than become part of any alliance, they chose to nefariously destabilise the region through terrorist activities. It eventually led to war.

The Cardassian Wars - Setlik 3 was the site of the pre-emptive strike b ythe Cardassians. While the exact causes of the war aren't fully known in canon, it doesn't favour the Cardassians that they chose to attack first, pre-emptively at that.

The Borg - Not a war in the traditional sense, but at every encounter, the Borg have been the aggressors. At the very first encounter, the Borg beamed a drone over to the engineering section of the Ent-D to scan the ships computers and learn everything possible about the ship and its people. When this scanning began to interfere with the ships systems (it was allowed to continue up to that point in an effort to let the Borg learn) it had to be fired at with a phaser. The Borg replaced this drone, which was armed with a shield, and the scanning continued (the Borg didn't 'care' and carried on regardless). The next stage was to seize the Enterprise with a tractor beam. Every other encounter has been more and more aggressive on the part of the Borg, ultimately sending ships to assimilate Earth.

The Dominion - Discussed previously in the thread. The Dominion chose to attack rather than engage in diplomacy, which again, is fact. The Klingons broke their treaty with Earth because Starfleet wouldn't invade Cardassia with them too.

Military Coups

The Undiscovered Country - A group of high ranking racist officers tried to sabotage peace negotiations with the Klingons. The Klingons too, had some high ranking racist officers who didn't want peace with the Federation. Ultimately, Starfleet officers and Klingon officers alike saved the day, and the peace treaty went ahead. Good apples and bad apples, why let the bad apples taint the overall picture?

The Pegasus - Not a coup, but a conspiracy. A clandestine attempt to develop a cloaking device which contravened the terms of the Klingon peace treaty. This was not officially sanctioned, and was wrong to do. It took Riker to eventually expose it, again, showing ethics & morals where he could have just said nothing.

Paradise Lost - A rogue Admiral, fearful of the Federations peaceful approach to the Dominion, created several false flag events to bolster security of the Federation. Like above, the day was saved by another starfleet officer, and this admiral was removed. Lets not forget there were changeling infiltrators on Earth at that stage too.

Relocating Colonists - This is at least a valid argument. It was wrong, and cold of Starfleet to forcibly order the evacuation of colonists along the DMZ. However, ultimately, an agreement was reached (thanks in no small part to Picard) with the Cardassians to allow colonists to remain where they are, albeit independant of the federation. It was unfortunate that these colonies were later attacked by Cardassians.

Genetic Modification of Children - an illegal act no less. And with a sole example of it (Bashir), you say it as if its common place? This would be an incorrect assumption, as you more than likely know.

Human dominated military - Lets look at what we know from the screen:

The president of the UFP himself wasn't human.
Chief of Security and Tactical officer on the Ent-D wasn't human.
Third officer and chief operations officer on the Ent-D wasn't human.
Second in command of DS9 wasn't human.
Chief science officer on DS9 wasn't human.
Chief of security on DS9 wasn't human.
The Strategic Operations Officer on DS9 wasn't human.
The chief of security on Voyager wasn't human.
The Chief Engineer on Voyager was half Klingon.
We've seen non human Admirals, not human Captains, and various other non humans in positions of leadership.

Short of a writing tool/budget restrictions/time restrictions, there's zero evidence to suggest there is any dominance of humans in Starfleet. We've seen Klingons, Ferengi, Vulcans, Bolians and other races ad nauseum pass through the academy to become officers.

The Federation is predicated on constant expansion. Ship after ship, pouring beyond its borders annexing neighbours. This leads to the constant war it is embroiled in. The Klingons, The Romulans, The Cardassians, , the Dominion, The Borg, the list goes on. All encountered by the Federation and immediately dragged into war.

What neighbours were annexed? What you call expansion, I call exploration. I know it's exploration too because in the case of planets not wanting to join the Federation, they're simply left alone. Annexing would include pre-warp planets too, which isn't done. Annexing would also include conquest of other smaller races, which again, is never, ever done. It's peaceful exploration, and with zero evidence to argue otherwise, I don't see how you can call it expansion/annexing.

Every single time the Borg are encountered, it is very clearly shown, that they do not attack unless threatened. There is no excuse for war with the Borg. They can be communicated with, and they can be reasoned with. They are also not the aggressors in their conflict with the Federation.
I might add that the Borg would have absolutely no issues communicating with the Tamarians.

If I didn't know you knew a bit about Trek, I'd be wondering if you were trolling with the comment. It's absurd dude. They don't attack unless threatened, this is true. But that only extends to being on their ships. It doesn't change the overall mission of the ship. You're implying there that any race that has been assimilated must have in some way threatened or attacked the Borg - which again as we've seen on the episodes, is simply not the case - at all.

They can be communicated with, we've seen that too. However, the only time we've actually seen two way communication is when Borg are freed from the collective, or if you have something they want. Hardly the basis to establish peaceful relations. To say they are not the aggressors in the the Federation conflict is just simply wrong...watch the last few "Q, Who", "The Neutral Zone", and "The Best of Both Worlds" again and pay strong attention to whats going on. It's plain as day Picard tried his best not to provoke them, and provoke them, he didn't.

Not sure if you've read all that, but again, there's evidence to debunk 99% of what you're saying about the federation.