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KBC exiting Ireland

13567…26

Comments

  • #102
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    You would think our politicians might implement reforms on that point. But getting people out of houses, even if they're not paying for them, is just political suicide in Ireland. Expect absolutely nothing to be done on that point.

    Eventually international finance says we can't do business in this market, there isn't enough return for the risk, the Irish authorities put strategic defaulters ahead of the common good. How many votes are in that. Not that many I'd think you'll find, but plough on.


  • #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PommieBast wrote: »
    Think there already is a nascent one, but bank in other EU countries simply refuse to lend for Irish residential property.

    You're correct. Didn't know that. The protections need to be reduced then, to allow repossessions for non-payment, to reduce the risk for lenders and help responsible borrowers.


  • #104
    SteM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭SteM


    godtabh wrote: »
    The consequence of not been able to call in loans if people default

    Pat Kenny just brought this up with Paschal Donohoe who BS'd the answer of course.


  • #105
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Student_111 wrote: »
    This is a disaster for Irish Consumers. We already have the highest mortgage rates in Europe. We need a europe-wide lending market. Mortgages rates will get out of control. Think the car insurance racket on steroids. Interest rates are at an all time low. Don't envy young people with large mortgages over the next few decades.

    Ireland is a dysfunctional mortgage market. People can go years and years without paying their mortgage and the lender can't get any legal satisfaction with repossession proceedings taking years and years.

    There is nothing to stop a European lender setting up shop in the morning in Ireland but why would they bother: the legal and regulatory framework here in Ireland is dysfunctional and presents large barriers to entry.


  • #106
    berocca2016
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Any link you can share to back your statement?

    This one from March doesn’t include Ireland in the markets covered by Revolut Bank (the entity which has the banking licence). And I couldn’t find anything newer.

    https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/03/revolut-lets-customers-switch-to-revolut-bank-in-10-additional-countries/

    Revolut terms and conditions? As an e money institution the client deposits are safeguarded in credit institutions which are covered by the depositary guarantee scheme. This now seems to be the official revolut bank that holds the deposit.

    Just because Revolut Bank aren't offering credit services here does not mean your deposit is not protected.


  • #107
    adox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭adox


    sebdavis wrote: »
    Avant is offering cash back, or it did when I signed up, I get 10 a month once I spend so much, I moved from KBC credit card to them, think they had a better interest rate as well

    Had a look there and they do but unfortunately dont support Google Pay which is a deal breaker for me.


  • #108
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    This didn't happen overnight. It's been obvious for years. The minister of finance is scrambled to go out on the radio. Talk about after the horse is bolted.


  • #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Ireland is a dysfunctional mortgage market. People can go years and years without paying their mortgage and the lender can't get any legal satisfaction with repossession proceedings taking years and years.

    There is nothing to stop a European lender setting up shop in the morning in Ireland but why would they bother: the legal and regulatory framework here in Ireland is dysfunctional and presents large barriers to entry.

    Correct I didn't know that, thanks. We need to make it easier to reposses houses for non-payment , to encourage lenders to enter the market and protect responsible borrowers.


  • #110
    Salvadoor
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭Salvadoor


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    This didn't happen overnight. It's been obvious for years.The minister of finance is scrambled to go out on the radio. Talk about after the horse is bolted.


    What has been obvious for years?


  • #111
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    PommieBast wrote: »
    Think there already is a nascent one, but bank in other EU countries simply refuse to lend for Irish residential property.

    To expend on this, it is not as much that they don’t want to lend for Irish residential property, but more that they don’t want to accept the property itself as a collateral for the mortgage (due to they fact that a foreign bank pretty much has zero chance of repossessing an Irish house in an cost effective manner in case the loan stops performing).

    But I have heard of people who did get foreign loans for the purpose of buying an Irish property by providing an alternative collateral which was satisfactory for the bank (I.e. a German bank might be happy to extend a mortgage to purchase an Irish property if the borrower is posting a German property of sufficient value as a collateral for the loan).


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  • #112
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Student_111 wrote: »
    Correct I didn't know that, thanks. We need to make it easier to reposses houses for non-payment , to encourage lenders to enter the market and protect responsible borrowers.

    No politician is going to propose making it easier for banks to repossess and enforce their mortgages. It's a toxic proposition for any government to tackle.


  • #113
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,737 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    According to a recent article in Money guide Ireland, Revolut does not have a banking guarantee in Ireland.

    Why? Because it doesn't have a banking licence in Ireland.

    https://www.moneyguideireland.com/n26-compared-revolut.html



    N26 does have a guarantee in Ireland.


  • #114
    van_beano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭van_beano


    adox wrote: »
    Had a look there and they do but unfortunately dont support Google Pay which is a deal breaker for me.

    Link it up to a Curve card, I’ve mine linked up for Apple Pay.


  • #115
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Bob24 wrote: »
    To expend on this, it is not as much that they don’t want to lend for Irish residential property, but more that they don’t want to accept the property itself as a collateral for the mortgage (due to they fact that a foreign bank pretty much has zero chance of repossessing an Irish house in an cost effective manner in case the loan stops performing).

    But I have heard of people who did get foreign loans for the purpose of buying an Irish property by providing an alternative collateral which was satisfactory for the bank (I.e. a German bank might be happy to extend a mortgage to purchase an Irish property if the borrower is posting a German property of sufficient value as a collateral for the loan).

    In fairness that applies in a very narrow set of circumstances. The vast majority of mortgages in Ireland are secured on an Irish residential property. Very few people in Ireland have a foreign unencumbered property to put up as security.


  • #116
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bob24 wrote: »
    To expend on this, it is not as much that they don’t want to lend for Irish residential property, but more that they don’t want to accept the property itself as a collateral for the mortgage (due to they fact that a foreign bank pretty much has zero chance of repossessing an Irish house in an cost effective manner in case the loan stops performing).

    But I have heard of people who did get foreign loans for the purpose of buying an Irish property by providing an alternative collateral which was satisfactory for the bank (I.e. a German bank might be happy to extend a mortgage to purchase an Irish property if the borrower is posting a German property of sufficient value as a collateral for the loan).

    Interesting. First-time buyers should just put up one of their overseas properties as collateral so. Easy. /s*

    *Taking the piss out of the current market situation, not you. Thanks for that info.


  • #117
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    berocca2016 wrote: »
    Revolut terms and conditions? As an e money institution the client deposits are safeguarded in credit institutions which are covered by the depositary guarantee scheme. This now seems to be the official revolut bank that holds the deposit.

    Just because Revolut Bank aren't offering credit services here does not mean your deposit is not protected.

    Yeah it is exactly what I was saying that they are using an emoney licence to do business here as opposed to their banking licence.

    As I sais, it means that as a customer you are not covered by the Lithuanian (nor the Irish) deposit guarantee scheme.


  • #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    In fairness that applies in a very narrow set of circumstances. The vast majority of mortgages in Ireland are secured on an Irish residential property. Very few people in Ireland have a foreign unencumbered property to put up as security.

    Very few people in Ireland have a mortgage from a foreign lender full stop. I think that was his point - outlining the reason for that.


  • #119
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Student_111 wrote: »
    This is a disaster for Irish Consumers. We already have the highest mortgage rates in Europe. We need a europe-wide lending market. Mortgages rates will get out of control. Think the car insurance racket on steroids. Interest rates are at an all time low. Don't envy young people with large mortgages over the next few decades.

    Banks don't want to lend into Ireland, that's the problem. A Europe-wide lending market won't change that, unless it's also European courts that decide when properties get repossessed when mortgages don't get paid. That won't happen because Irish people wouldn't have it.

    Other EU citizens won't want to take on the higher capital and reserve requirements associated with lending in Ireland either (as a result of the above). So a Europe-wide lending market isn't going to happen.


  • #120
    berocca2016
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yeah it is exactly what I was saying that they are using an emoney licence to do business here as opposed to their banking licence.

    As I sais, it means that as a customer you are not covered by a national by the Lithuanian (not Irish) deposit guarantee scheme.

    I give up... Google EU Passporting?


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  • #121
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    In fairness that applies in a very narrow set of circumstances. The vast majority of mortgages in Ireland are secured on an Irish residential property. Very few people in Ireland have a foreign unencumbered property to put up as security.

    Yes fully agree. Very few people would be able to avail of this.

    I guess my point was that the real problem technically isn’t that foreign banks don’t want to extend mortgages for Irish properties. It is more that our legal framework is too much of a minefield for them to accept Irish property as a loan collateral.


  • #122
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    berocca2016 wrote: »
    I give up... Google EU Passporting?

    You just said it yourself. They are *not* passporting their banking licence here.

    They are passporting their e-money licence, which does not entitle the same level of depositors protection.


  • #123
    berocca2016
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭berocca2016


    Bob24 wrote: »
    You just said it yourself. They are *not* passporting their banking licence here.

    They are passporting their e-money licence, which does entitle the same level of depositors protection.

    And where are the client assets held? In an EU bank. Bye Felicia


  • #124
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    berocca2016 wrote: »
    And where are the client assets held? In an EU bank. Bye Felicia

    When Revolut deposits money in a bank, there is no depositor protection scheme (they are depositing the money as an institution and those schemes only covers individual depositors)

    And you still haven’t posted a single link confirming your claim that customers funds are protected by a national scheme similarity to a licensed bank.


  • #125
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Just remember the nonsense around the Strokestown repossession a couple of years ago (which involved KBC). That was one that the courts actually approved, and yet it was blocked by locals and you have politicians etc. coming out and criticising KBC over repossessing a property that hadn't had a payment against it in years. I'd imagine you had many in Belgium bemused at that whole affair.

    While an individual event like that won't have led to their decision, it just sort of sums up how dysfunctional our mortgage lending market can be here.


  • #126
    howiya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭howiya


    Amirani wrote: »
    Just remember the nonsense around the Strokestown repossession a couple of years ago (which involved KBC). That was one that the courts actually approved, and yet it was blocked by locals and you have politicians etc. coming out and criticising KBC over repossessing a property that hadn't had a payment against it in years. I'd imagine you had many in Belgium bemused at that whole affair.

    While an individual event like that won't have led to their decision, it just sort of sums up how dysfunctional our mortgage lending market can be here.

    Was reading Irish Times which gave a summary of their performing and non-performing loans. €8.9bn performing vs €1.4bn npl. Madness


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  • #127
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Amirani wrote: »
    Just remember the nonsense around the Strokestown repossession a couple of years ago (which involved KBC). That was one that the courts actually approved, and yet it was blocked by locals and you have politicians etc. coming out and criticising KBC over repossessing a property that hadn't had a payment against it in years. I'd imagine you had many in Belgium bemused at that whole affair.

    While an individual event like that won't have led to their decision, it just sort of sums up how dysfunctional our mortgage lending market can be here.

    One of the successful 5808 court cases in 13 years I guess. The numbers are staggering, 2.5k court cases over 5 years in the court system, thousands of mortgages in areas, thousands going on years without anything done and of course, the results of Covid to these figures will be clear. So much so that the Central Bank penned how to handle this, which effectively boils down to sure its grand. Not a single mention in the entire report about what effect this has on the financial institutions they are set to regulate or to the other customers in the market.


  • #128
    Cartman78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,720 ✭✭✭Cartman78


    Ugghh...what a pain in the h0le.

    Move to KBC from Ulster Bank a couple of years ago when UB jacked up their charges.

    Also have Revolut but will probably switch main account to N26 as per the reasons mentioned in this and elsewhere


  • #129
    TylerRyan28
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TylerRyan28


    Makes you think what's the point staying in a place like this if you have the opportunity to move abroad to Australia or Canada go for it , you can always come back. This is what I will be thinking when I finish my Apprenticeship. Ireland is just going to get worse with house prices/ mortgages salary & healthcare.


  • #130
    Dempo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,022 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Amirani wrote: »
    Just remember the nonsense around the Strokestown repossession a couple of years ago (which involved KBC). That was one that the courts actually approved, and yet it was blocked by locals and you have politicians etc. coming out and criticising KBC over repossessing a property that hadn't had a payment against it in years. I'd imagine you had many in Belgium bemused at that whole affair.

    While an individual event like that won't have led to their decision, it just sort of sums up how dysfunctional our mortgage lending market can be here.

    Yes I agree but equally important not to forget the other side of the coin, the Tracker scandal. Even when mortgages performing, Banks couldn't help themselves and rightly got spanked albeit far to late for those who lost their homes.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • #131
    Weepsie
    Site Banned Posts: 20,686 ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    One of the successful 5808 court cases in 13 years I guess. The numbers are staggering, 2.5k court cases over 5 years in the court system, thousands of mortgages in areas, thousands going on years without anything done and of course, the results of Covid to these figures will be clear. So much so that the Central Bank penned how to handle this, which effectively boils down to sure its grand. Not a single mention in the entire report about what effect this has on the financial institutions they are set to regulate or to the other customers in the market.

    And we still have a situation in which people are overpaying for houses they can't really afford anyway because they have feck all deposit and are using help to buy. Same people are then surprised that it's expensive to kit out a house and wondering why they have no money because they never bothered learning how to save


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  • #132
    StephenRy30
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭StephenRy30


    Cartman78 wrote: »
    Ugghh...what a pain in the h0le.

    Move to KBC from Ulster Bank a couple of years ago when UB jacked up their charges.

    Also have Revolut but will probably switch main account to N26 as per the reasons mentioned in this and elsewhere



    Whats wrong with Revolut? I was considering N26 aswell not sure about it maybe just as a second bank account


  • #133
    Akesh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭Akesh


    The writing has been on the wall for a long time. The government has been warned about this for years but as usual nothing is done.

    Pascal's quote this morning was disgraceful:
    "Competition issues are primarily a matter for the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission"

    Nothing to do with government policy allow mortgage holders to not pay but keep their house for years. Well done Pascal.


  • #134
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Salvadoor wrote: »
    What has been obvious for years?

    That the conditions created by the authorities do not allow the business to earn a return for the risk taken, with a strategic default culture these banks don't have to deal with elsewhere. The topic many are discussing on this thread.


  • #135
    Dempo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,022 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    TylerRyan28 wrote: »
    Makes you think what's the point staying in a place like this if you have the opportunity to move abroad to Australia or Canada go for it , you can always come back. This is what I will be thinking when I finish my Apprenticeship. Ireland is just going to get worse with house prices/ mortgages salary & healthcare.

    Thinking the same albeit I've done the apprentice thing, Travelled and lived abroad, returned, bought the house etc at an age now we're I'm stuck with this never ending S****.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • #136
    TylerRyan28
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TylerRyan28


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Thinking the same albeit I've done the apprentice thing, Travelled and lived abroad, returned, bought the house etc at an age now we're I'm stuck with this never ending S****.



    I travelled a few years ago before I decided to do an apprenticeship. Would you not sell the house and move abroad nothing to lose really


  • #137
    Tzardine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    Sh1te.

    I just switched to them last week from Ulster Bank due to their exit.

    Pain in the hole.


  • #138
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Amirani wrote: »
    Banks don't want to lend into Ireland, that's the problem. A Europe-wide lending market won't change that, unless it's also European courts that decide when properties get repossessed when mortgages don't get paid. That won't happen because Irish people wouldn't have it.

    Other EU citizens won't want to take on the higher capital and reserve requirements associated with lending in Ireland either (as a result of the above). So a Europe-wide lending market isn't going to happen.


    The United States of America does not have a unified banking market. IF you're in californai you can't get a mortgage from a Boston bank, unless the Boston bank sets up a separate operation in California, legally incorporated in California.



    So basically the EU is in the exact same position as US regarding banking market. The banks just choose not to set up operations in Ireland because they can't get the property back from defaulters.


  • #139
    Cartman78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,720 ✭✭✭Cartman78


    StephenRy30 wrote: »
    Whats wrong with Revolut? I was considering N26 aswell not sure about it maybe just as a second bank account

    Revolut is fine but the fact that N26 is German based/backed gives me more comfort for some reason....will do some more research before making any moves though.

    KBC the latest on my growing list of banking snafus....have had accounts with Northern Rock, Rabobank and Ulster Bank over the years :-)


  • #140
    Lmkrnr
    Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭Lmkrnr


    Do the N26 accounts allowed free transfers to Irish bank's?
    I have kbc for current and AIB for savings. So the majority of my cash is safe so to speak. If i need withdraw a large amount I visit Aib. Wages come in (to KBC) i transfer to my savings.

    That's the set up I have for free banking. What's the alternative?


  • #141
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Long term arrears is socially acceptable in Ireland. You have politicians going on about how vulnerable these people are - meanwhile the rest of us are paying the highest mortgage rates in Europe to cover the losses being accrued to these defaulters. The fact we have among the highest rates in Europe yet European banks are tripping over themselves to get out of the Irish market tells you all you need to know about how dysfunctional the legal and regulatory environment is here.


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  • #142
    Kewreeuss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Kewreeuss


    What will happen to fixed deposit accounts with KBC? Do you think they will be transferred to BOI at BOI rates?


  • #143
    FileNotFound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    Akesh wrote: »
    The writing has been on the wall for a long time. The government has been warned about this for years but as usual nothing is done.

    Pascal's quote this morning was disgraceful:


    Nothing to do with government policy allow mortgage holders to not pay but keep their house for years. Well done Pascal.


    In fairness, this has been the case pre pascal and the main aim of any opposition parties is to make it worse.

    Sad when banks leave a market they can charge more interest in because the rules mean the few drain the system.

    Need to get some real rules in place, can't afford it well then its not yours


  • #144
    ghostdancer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,539 ✭✭✭ghostdancer


    There are already threads for discussing Revolut/N26:

    Revolut Megathread

    N26 Megathread


  • #145
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Revolut have been known to lock accounts for up to 6 months at a time for suspicious transacstions such as getting your wages paid in regularly.


    Check out the Revolut subreddit for 101 reasons not to use them as your main bank. I do use them for currency conversion.


  • #146
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Feck it anyway,
    No loans etc with KBC but have been using them for banking after leaving Ulster Bank about 3 years ago, prior to that I was with BOI for agesss.

    Loved KBC app, nice and quick, KBC are also the only bank in Ireland with Garmin Pay so seriously going to miss that as I used it everyday almost.

    I have an a/c with N26 already so I'd say I'll go with them as my next bank for general day to day banking.

    It amuses me when people think Revolut is equal to even N26, its certainly not and it shows a real lack of research on people's behalfs.
    I fear people may eventually find out the downsides of Revolut


  • #147
    65535
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 877 ✭✭✭65535


    Have a mortgage with KBC
    Missed 2 payments due to Covid-19
    Paying it back over a few months so all will be good but I am now classed as a defaulter I guess.

    MEH


  • #148
    flazio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,254 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Is there anything to be said for another Credit Union?


  • #149
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    flazio wrote: »
    Is there anything to be said for another Credit Union?

    id go public banks tbh, but they to can be very problematic


  • #150
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    flazio wrote: »
    Is there anything to be said for another Credit Union?

    The German credit union tried to join didnt it and CBOI blocked it


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  • #151
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    id go public banks tbh, but they to can be very problematic

    As long as the legal landscape means repossessions take forever to happen and politicians talk about protecting the vulnerable, then it doesn't matter if you have a super credit union or a public bank, nothing will change in the market.


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