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What should be the Churches response to Covid19 See Mod Warning in post 1

  • 15-03-2020 6:41pm
    #1
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭


    It surprised me that the Christians have had nothing to say about Covid 19.

    What's going on?

    I've been reading, praying, meeting with the Saints and we've been seeking the mind of God in this matter.

    We met together this morning, albeit in reduced numbers. We kept the kids at home and as a result some of the adults.
    We streamed the meeting to include those who are part of us worldwide in what God was saying. We need to be sensible in these things.

    It seems Gods been speaking to a number of us individually that this is from His Hand and is His judgement on the nation's.
    Those who've dismissed God, saying He doesn't exist or if He does, we'll ignore His statutes anyway.

    This is an opportunity for people to repent and turn back to God. Some will, many won't and will pass up this opportunity. We'll probably get a vaccine and claim how wonderful mankind is but God won't be mocked.
    This is His kindness and His opportunity for repentance and a turning back to Him.

    People are in fear and people are fearing other people's fear (Isaiah 8) but we who know Him need to return to Him, allow God be God in our lives and trust Him. We have a message of hope to a world that has lost control and fearing death.

    Psalm 31 refers to us being in a city under siege but yet God extends His loving kindness

    He says " O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
    Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD"

    This thread is not a debate with those who don't believe in God. His existence isn't up for debate. You're response however is. But it's primarily for those who love the Lord and serve Him.
    It's not a theological debate.

    What's God saying in the the Church of the Redeemed Ones? To those who love Him and His appearing.
    If He's not saying anything to you, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your relationship with God.
    I speak to my children, God is no different, if we have ears.

    I'm encouraged. God's hand is in this. He has allowed it. It wouldn't have happened if He hadn't. He's still sitting on His throne. He's still in control.

    Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right. Will He find any righteous?



    Mod Warning: All Covid discussion is limited to this thread and the other specific threads here listed in the Coronavirus directory. Any promotion of illegal activities, or soapboxing, will result in sanctions.


«134

Comments

  • #2
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So is this like HIV? Or babies that die?

    Your God is certainly a vengeful thing. And why no give the people a warning?

    The deal was, I thought, follow his path or go to hell. The rules seemed to have changed to now judgement can arrive at any time.

    But wait a minute. Doesn't this fundamentally go against the whole idea of free will? If god is 8indeed able to introduce this virus in order to get people to refocus on him, why didn't he do something similar for,saying, the Nazi's?

    You really mean to tell me you and a group of Christians sat around to talk about a global pandemic, and your conclusion was that it was the peoples own fault?

    To believe any of that you have to ignore pretty much all your other beliefs in God.

    In terms of what the church should do, which you appear not to have any ideas on, the church should use it considerable resources to help in the fight.

    Care for the sick, reach out to those left isolated, open up the properties to care for those left stranded.

    Use their far reaching pulpit to get the right message out, the message of the experts. Help those left in hardship, through organising food banks, sourcing essentials like toilet paper, children's medicine.

    Check on those left isolated to see if they need help. Be a source of compassion and empathy.


    Maybe stay away from the smug, 'it's your own fault and my God is more powerful than yours' would be a start


  • #3
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,353 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    wbMnKM5iWzJF.gif


  • #4
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,995 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Once they removed the so-called Holy Water I knew it was all a scam.
    Surely Holy Water wouldn't allow the spread of the virus!!


  • #5
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So is this like HIV? Or babies that die?

    Your God is certainly a vengeful thing. And why no give the people a warning?

    The deal was, I thought, follow his path or go to hell. The rules seemed to have changed to now judgement can arrive at any time.

    But wait a minute. Doesn't this fundamentally go against the whole idea of free will? If god is 8indeed able to introduce this virus in order to get people to refocus on him, why didn't he do something similar for,saying, the Nazi's?

    You really mean to tell me you and a group of Christians sat around to talk about a global pandemic, and your conclusion was that it was the peoples own fault?

    To believe any of that you have to ignore pretty much all your other beliefs in God.

    In terms of what the church should do, which you appear not to have any ideas on, the church should use it considerable resources to help in the fight.

    Care for the sick, reach out to those left isolated, open up the properties to care for those left stranded.

    Use their far reaching pulpit to get the right message out, the message of the experts. Help those left in hardship, through organising food banks, sourcing essentials like toilet paper, children's medicine.

    Check on those left isolated to see if they need help. Be a source of compassion and empathy.


    Maybe stay away from the smug, 'it's your own fault and my God is more powerful than yours' would be a start

    If you want to discuss social issues, there are more suitable threads elsewhere on boards.


  • #6
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    People will thank science because ultimately it will be science that solves this. All the praying in the world won't change that.


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  • #7
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Mod warning: @NIMAN and @endacl, please keep it constructive and on-topic noting that this is not the forum to have a go at the faithful. Thanks for your attention.


  • #8
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    We met together this morning, albeit in reduced numbers. We kept the kids at home and as a result some of the adults.

    In my opinion the churches response should be responsible and encourage social distancing and that meetings such as the above should be done over skype or similar. Possibly worth keeping in mind that in this country the elderly make up a large part of the demographic that are regular church goers and are a high risk group.

    As per Leroy43's post, I think what most good people are doing at this point is looking to see how they can help out with those at risk in their own communities.


  • #9
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    eviltwin wrote: »
    People will thank science because ultimately it will be science that solves this. All the praying in the world won't change that.

    Not only science though. Individual and collective responsibility as part of a cohesive and compassionate society also plays a vital role here.


  • #10
    ruwithme
    Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭ruwithme


    Atheists hanging around the Christianity forum! Strange thing to say the least

    i suppose idle hands are the devil's playthings.
    Enjoy


  • #11
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    In my opinion the churches response should be responsible and encourage social distancing and that meetings such as the above should be done over skype or similar. Possibly worth keeping in mind that in this country the elderly make up a large part of the demographic that are regular church goers and are a high risk group.

    As per Leroy43's post, I think what most good people are doing at this point is looking to see how they can help out with those at risk in their own communities.

    While we can assist socially, our primary response I would believe should be towards God.
    If this is indeed His Judgement on a people who have rejected Him then there needs to be an appropriate response to Him.

    We are talking about many thousands passing Into another phase of eternity without Him.

    I know a lot of people think " The Church" is a particular denomination. Scripture refers to The Church as those who are His and who have been Redeemed by Him and know Him.


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  • #12
    Mancomb Seepgood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    smacl wrote: »
    In my opinion the churches response should be responsible and encourage social distancing and that meetings such as the above should be done over skype or similar. Possibly worth keeping in mind that in this country the elderly make up a large part of the demographic that are regular church goers and are a high risk group.

    As per Leroy43's post, I think what most good people are doing at this point is looking to see how they can help out with those at risk in their own communities.

    This. And to be fair,churches have by and large been behaving responsibly in moving services online and implementing social distancing measures. I know it's difficult for a lot of people, particularly the older generation for whom attending services has been part of the daily/weekly rhythm of their lives for decades.

    I know this has been a reminder to me to pray for leaders,scientists,medial professionals,the suffering and the lonely. It's difficult to find meaning in these things but I'm extremely wary of interpretations that make this out to be some sort of divine punishment on humanity, that's getting into Westboro Baptist Church territory and reduces God to a bungling serial killer.


  • #13
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »
    This. And to be fair,churches have by and large been behaving responsibly in moving services online and implementing social distancing measures. I know it's difficult for a lot of people, particularly the older generation for whom attending services has been part of the daily/weekly rhythm of their lives for decades.

    I know this has been a reminder to me to pray for leaders,scientists,medial professionals,the suffering and the lonely. It's difficult to find meaning in these things but I'm extremely wary of interpretations that make this out to be some sort of divine punishment on humanity, that's getting into Westboro Baptist Church territory and reduces God to a bungling serial killer.

    The Bible has many references to God punishing humanity. What's your point?

    But since my question was regards what's God saying to the Churches, your post has no relevance to the OP.


  • #14
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    https://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/2020/03/13/response-to-escalation-of-coronavirus-crisis-covid-19-and-the-local-church/

    Following up on this. Today, I shared in our online church service that perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18)

    Fear-based responses harm others and will hinder the fight against the coronavirus. Think of panic buying - forcing the more vulnerable elderly people to go from shop to shop to find their basic necessities, and thereby increasing their exposure to risk. Or think of those in locked-down areas trying to flee, and spreading the virus into other regions.

    Love-based responses protect others. That is why our church has cancelled all our meetings and gatherings, not just the ones with more than 100 people. We love people too much to provide an environment where we might cause transmission of the virus.

    Love, not fear, will overcome the coronavirus. We need to practice social responsibility, and reduce panic. The church, in my opinion, has a huge role to play in this.


  • #15
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    If you want to discuss social issues, there are more suitable threads elsewhere on boards.

    You asked what the church should do. If you meant purely from a selfish point if view tiy should have been clearer.

    So, about thatcqhike free will thingy. You think god has actually done this to punish the world? So are scientists working on a cure going against God?

    Are Christians immune from the virus if they really believe and can we take it that anyone that contracts is thus not a true believer?

    And when this new rule come in? Not 9only are we judged after death but now apparently even whilst alive.

    What if I contract it but then turn to God, will I be cured?

    So many questions. And of course you will have no actual answers because you haven't thought about the contradictory position you have put yourself in. You are in such a rush to use this as a proof of your god that you don't even worry that it actually does the opposite.

    And maybe you should be more concerned about social issues, you know your fellow man, than sitting around agreeing with your mates that you are the special ones.


  • #16
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Leroy, I asked a question in my OP.

    Looks like God's saying nothing to the Churches whose members come on here.

    Social responsibility in the face of Covid 19 is a whole different issue. Feel free to start your own thread in the subject.

    You've spent years on this sub forum arguing about Christianity. Your only interest in Christianity is to put it down.
    I've no interest in debating it with you.


    @Nick, it's grand saying Love casts out fear, and it does, but people need to come into relationship with Him who is Love first otherwise it's unattainable and unknowable.


  • #17
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    I see the thread title on the front page.

    There is only one Church, namely the Catholic Church.
    There aren't Churches.


  • #18
    Die Hard 2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Die Hard 2019


    hinault wrote: »
    I see the thread title on the front page.

    There is only one Church, namely the Catholic Church.
    There aren't Churches.

    What about the Church of Ireland?


  • #19
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    hinault wrote: »
    I see the thread title on the front page.

    There is only one Church, namely the Catholic Church.
    There aren't Churches.

    And yet Revelation refers to churches.

    Agreed, there is only one Catholic Church, ....but that's a different debate for a different thread


  • #20
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Die Hard 2019 wrote: »
    What about the Church of Ireland?

    My post refers to those who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ. The church of the firstborn.
    We all know hinaults view on the ",true"church. It has no place in my OP.

    I'll report anyone who derails the thread.


  • #21
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    Leroy, I asked a question in my OP.

    Looks like God's saying nothing to the Churches whose members come on here.

    Social responsibility in the face of Covid 19 is a whole different issue . . .
    Maybe it's not a whole different issue, though. Maybe it's right at the heart of what God is saying to us.

    I note that:
    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    . . . Gods been speaking to a number of us individually that this is from His Hand and is His judgement on the nation's . . .
    Is He also saying that social responsibility is a whole different issue, or are you just assuming that His judgment has nothing to do with social responsibility?


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  • #22
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    I'll report anyone who derails the thread.

    Mod warning: Please do not threaten other posters in this manner. Report as you see fit anything you feel is in breach of the forum charter. Leave other moderation to the moderators. Thanks for your attention.


  • #23
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    I think any response from the church to a crisis is going to be in line with the response of any organisation, be it satanic gatherings, pagan gatherings, schools, clubs, yoga, drama societies and so on.

    There's nothing really anything the church can do other than the obvious.


  • #24
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    I went to church yesterday happily. The attendance was only slightly diminished. I intend to keep doing so. I'm working remotely during the week with limited exposure to the public so I'm pretty low risk.

    Obviously those who are ill should stay at home but at the moment I see no reason why we shouldn't go as normal yet. In the coming weeks it looks like over 70s may go into isolation in the UK. I'd like to think about how I could help when that happens by offering to bring food.

    Our vicar did a good kids talk on how God is our rock in times of panic and how we ought to love our neighbours by not thinking only of self in panic buying but how we should love and consider the needs of others.

    At times like this we need to be reaching out to God in prayer together. I respect other Christians who disagree. The Irish advice is also different to the UK advice. The limit on 100 in Ireland limits a lot of churches.


  • #25
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nthclare wrote: »
    I think any response from the church to a crisis is going to be in line with the response of any organisation, be it satanic gatherings, pagan gatherings, schools, clubs, yoga, drama societies and so on.

    There's nothing really anything the church can do other than the obvious.

    I don't think the larger church(es) can reasonably be compared to relatively tiny minority faith groups, as the much larger organisations wield significant influence over their large membership. A church with membership in the tens or hundreds of thousands telling its membership to practise their beliefs from home via streamed service has a positive effect on broader society through social distancing. Conversely, a church that remains open and encourages groups to convene indoors has the opposite negative effect. Schools don't have that option as they've been mandated to close. Most other smaller groupings are taking the responsible decision to do this themselves before being told to do so. No idea what the satanists and pagans are at but any yoga and drama classes I'm aware of have stopped for now and some are also going online.


  • #26
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    So none of the Churches are hearing from God on the subject and it's all been reduced to nice sermons and social distancing and social responsibility(which are good things) but it's nothing different to what the unbelievers are doing so doesn't differentiate the Redeemed Ones from anyone else. They being the ones who should be hearing from the Throne.

    It feels like 2kings 6. Those who should be able to see, can't.

    Anyway, it seems the atheists have more to say in the Christianity forum than the Christians so I'll leave it to them and make my exit.


  • #27
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That seems a bit presumptuous, Tat. Your perception, and that of those who think like you, about what you are hearing from God is authentic and reliable, but if others perceive themselves to be hearing something from God that doesn't align with your expectations that is inauthentic and wrong and they are not hearing from God at all?

    Have you considered the possibility that God's purpose here might not be limited to "differentiating Redeemed Ones from anyone else", and indeed might not include that at all? That others might, in fact, be discerning His purpose as faithfully as, or more faithfully than, you?


  • #28
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    hinault wrote: »
    I see the thread title on the front page.

    There is only one Church, namely the Catholic Church.
    There aren't Churches.
    OP can't spell "Church's"


  • #29
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    So none of the Churches are hearing from God on the subject

    Not at all. The churches are hearing from God on the subject, but what they are hearing is not the apocalyptic stuff some would like them to be hearing.

    I believe the message of social responsibility, and the necessity of faith and love rather than fear, is very much a message of God.

    Btw, a number of churches are asking their members to set aside times for prayer in their homes tomorrow (St Patrick's Day). The message is that what is often seen as a 'Big Day Out' should become a 'Big Day In' and that prayer is a powerful weapon against coronavirus.


  • #30
    Salary Negotiator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    If this is god’s judgement then it seems awful cuńtish to target the elderly and infirm.


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  • #31
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Salary Negotiator wrote: »
    If this is god’s judgement then it seems awful cuńtish to target the elderly and infirm.

    That's why I don't believe in the Abrahamic god as a savior, if you're spiritual or leaning that way paganism and atheism is more practical and comforting in times of crisis.

    Because we don't have to think about being saved or what will happen to us when we die.

    An atheist accepts they'll fade into oblivion, pagans have a different idea.

    But Christians have a lot more fear especially catholics they worry about judgement and pearly gates.

    They should give themselves more slack.

    We're all in this together :)


  • #32
    ChrisJ84
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    So none of the Churches are hearing from God on the subject and it's all been reduced to nice sermons and social distancing and social responsibility(which are good things) but it's nothing different to what the unbelievers are doing so doesn't differentiate the Redeemed Ones from anyone else.

    I'm not expecting to hear from God specifically in relation to covid-19 - God speaks to us through scripture as he has always done and our response should be the same as in the face of any other tragic event or natural disaster. God is still on the throne, and our duty is to love him and our neighbour, while pointing them to the salvation that is only to be found in Jesus Christ.

    None of that is changed by the fact that we need to temporarily curtail our public meetings. Social distancing and the other practical steps people have been referencing on here are the appropriate responses to this specific set of circumstances, and are an important means of loving our neighbour.

    Saying that this pandemic is God's judgement on sin or rebellion is completely unverifiable, and entirely unhelpful in my view. Disease exists because we live in a fallen world, and we shouldn't presume to speak for God in this.


  • #33
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Salary Negotiator wrote: »
    If this is god’s judgement then it seems awful cuńtish to target the elderly and infirm.

    Carded for bad language, please see point 10 of the charter. Thanks for your attention


  • #34
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    The church I go to has every second row roped off, with narrower areas like the choir mostly roped off, and instead of one High Mass, there's three Low Masses limited to 100 people at a time, according to surname. The nearest parish church, offering only the New Order of Mass, prefers people to follow via webcam, but it's a low quality camera. I suppose, prudence should guide all.

    Also the Mass in Times of Pestilence:

    Mass in Times of Pestilence, St Andrew's Daily Missal, St Andé-near-Bruges, 1940

    Mass in Times of Pestilence, Missale Romanum, Regensberg, 1923

    The St Lawrence Press blog, publishers of an excellent ordo which uses the Roman Missal of 1939 for Masses in 2020, has some comments on the use extra propers in this COV19 era.

    The idea of Divine punishment, whether for Francis breaking the First Commandment with his Pachamama worship, or gay marriage or something, is odd. It raged first in China, then Iran, and while Christianity waxes in both places while atheism and Islam wane, and only later hitting Italian shores. This world is complex and ascribing events to Divine punishment, is unwise.


  • #35
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    I saw a post on Facebook where some idiot pastor in the United States was saying that God told him the coronavirus was a demonic plot to kill older, more conservative, people in the United States so as to destroy the USA through socialism.

    There really are several levels of lunacy required to reach such a conclusion, just as there are similar levels of lunacy required to see the whole thing as judgement against particular sins or groups of people.

    As a pastor myself, I do think God is speaking very clearly to the churches at the moment. He's saying, "Don't be jerks. Don't act selfishly. Don't try and make this all about you and your pet peeves, your theological hang-ups, and your annoyance at those who don't share your moral stances. Be a voice of reason, love and grace. People are afraid right now, so get over yourself and speak hope and encouragement to others. Seek ways of serving and blessing people who are hurting. Be a part of the solution to this crisis rather than making it worse."

    That's what a lot of us as Christians are hearing from God right now.


  • #36
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nick Park wrote: »
    I saw a post on Facebook where some idiot pastor in the United States was saying that God told him the coronavirus was a demonic plot to kill older, more conservative, people in the United States so as to destroy the USA through socialism.

    There really are several levels of lunacy required to reach such a conclusion, just as there are similar levels of lunacy required to see the whole thing as judgement against particular sins or groups of people.

    As a pastor myself, I do think God is speaking very clearly to the churches at the moment. He's saying, "Don't be jerks. Don't act selfishly. Don't try and make this all about you and your pet peeves, your theological hang-ups, and your annoyance at those who don't share your moral stances. Be a voice of reason, love and grace. People are afraid right now, so get over yourself and speak hope and encouragement to others. Seek ways of serving and blessing people who are hurting. Be a part of the solution to this crisis rather than making it worse."

    That's what a lot of us as Christians are hearing from God right now.

    I read an article earlier today that while Europeans are panic buying toilet paper and pasta there has been a run on guns and knives in the States. I think actively dispelling fear and panic in these times, and striving to help those feeling this outbreak most acutely, is something that is important for all of us at this time, regardless of creed. Fair play to those, such as yourself, who have the ear of more people than most in taking this very clear and vocal stance.


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  • #37
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Nick Park wrote: »
    I saw a post on Facebook where some idiot pastor in the United States was saying that God told him the coronavirus was a demonic plot to kill older, more conservative, people in the United States so as to destroy the USA through socialism.

    There really are several levels of lunacy required to reach such a conclusion, just as there are similar levels of lunacy required to see the whole thing as judgement against particular sins or groups of people.

    As a pastor myself, I do think God is speaking very clearly to the churches at the moment. He's saying, "Don't be jerks. Don't act selfishly. Don't try and make this all about you and your pet peeves, your theological hang-ups, and your annoyance at those who don't share your moral stances. Be a voice of reason, love and grace. People are afraid right now, so get over yourself and speak hope and encouragement to others. Seek ways of serving and blessing people who are hurting. Be a part of the solution to this crisis rather than making it worse."

    That's what a lot of us as Christians are hearing from God right now.

    A terrible indictment on the churches if that's what God's having to tell you.

    What about a message of God being in control.Being above all and in all and that this is an opportunity to understand that we don't control our destiny and need to turn back to Him having rejected Him.

    Whether I live or die I live unto Him. If He calls me home there's no fear. I move from one phase of eternity to another.
    People are afraid of dying and of fear itself. Where's the message for them that they need get right with God.

    If God can look after a sparrow He can look after the rest of His creation.

    Having to be told to show love and grace when this is what the Church has been told to be since it's inception is a serious matter. If that's what God's telling the Churches, they need to wake up.

    He's telling other Churches different things.Who are you to dismiss what other Churches are hearing from God or to say it's not God speaking.

    Revelation says that we need to hear what God is saying to the Churches (plural) He said different things to the 7 Churches.
    It's an awful arrogance Nick to be saying you have a monopoly on what God's saying and that's the only message.


  • #38
    Lucy8080
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    [QUOTE=Reid Repulsive Gristle;1128426)
    It's not a theological debate.

    Read this gently,please.

    I've quoted a line from your post. Above that line in your post you have quoted the bible to support your reasoning.

    Is this not a theological position(on your part) , as any person would reasonably define it?


  • #39
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Maybe if different churches are hearing different messages, isn't the more likely explanation that none of them are actually hearing the message from God?

    And why would god be talking directly to some people and not others? If the virus really is a death sentence by god and only those that heed his way will be saved, then why not simply announce it?

    And you have still not been able to answer if you believe that anyone who dies from it can therefore be regarded as a sinner and now a true believer. And if a vaccine is achieved, if those those created it are working against the will of God?


  • #40
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Maybe if different churches are hearing different messages, isn't the more likely explanation that none of them are actually hearing the message from God?

    And why would god be talking directly to some people and not others? If the virus really is a death sentence by god and only those that heed his way will be saved, then why not simply announce it?

    And you have still not been able to answer if you believe that anyone who dies from it can therefore be regarded as a sinner and now a true believer. And if a vaccine is achieved, if those those created it are working against the will of God?

    Have a read of Luke 13 for your answer Leroy.
    We're those on whom the tower fell more sinful than those who escaped? Jesus answer is telling.


  • #41
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    A terrible indictment on the churches if that's what God's having to tell you.

    Yes, it is an indictment on some churches, and on some individual Christians - and an indictment that is, in some cases, richly deserved.

    There are a lot of Christians out there who are truly wonderful people, and who manifest the grace and truth of Jesus. And there are some, thankfully a minority, who seem to delight in nastiness and judgmentalism. Sometimes their voices seem to be the loudest. And that's why we need a more Christlike Christianity to make itself heard.
    He's telling other Churches different things.Who are you to dismiss what other Churches are hearing from God or to say it's not God speaking.

    Revelation says that we need to hear what God is saying to the Churches (plural) He said different things to the 7 Churches.
    It's an awful arrogance Nick to be saying you have a monopoly on what God's saying and that's the only message.

    If it's theologically illiterate lunacy, then I think it is incumbent on any thinking Christian to say it's not God.

    Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to accept that God may be saying different things to different churches. I never said otherwise.

    Indeed, you seem to be the one who's getting bent out of shape because you don't like my answer to your original post. You asked what God is saying to the churches, and then if I don't give the answer you want, you start arguing with me.

    I've certainly never stated, or implied, that I, or anyone else, has a monopoly on what God is saying and that's the only message. That would certainly be arrogance. Perhaps all of us need to stop and ask ourselves if we are coming across as intolerant and arrogant?

    God bless you.


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  • #42
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Maybe if different churches are hearing different messages, isn't the more likely explanation that none of them are actually hearing the message from God?

    And why would god be talking directly to some people and not others? If the virus really is a death sentence by god and only those that heed his way will be saved, then why not simply announce it?

    And you have still not been able to answer if you believe that anyone who dies from it can therefore be regarded as a sinner and now a true believer. And if a vaccine is achieved, if those those created it are working against the will of God?

    Intriguing.

    I'd almost be tempted to read the OP.

    Is he really saying that Covid19 is a punishment from God?


  • #43
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Nick Park wrote: »



    Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to accept that God may be saying different things to different churches. I never said otherwise.
    .

    You were the one who was dismissing the apocalyptic stuff.


    I quiet readily accepted that there could be different messages.

    It seems people are more fearful of that which can kill the body rather than Him who can kill the soul.


  • #44
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »
    It surprised me that the Christians have had nothing to say about Covid 19.

    What's going on?

    I propose an answer to that. Either the virus was created by God or it evolved naturally. Either way I don't think it's an discussion a theist want's to get involved in.


  • #45
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    While only have very limited, but very simple practical knowledge, of 'ecumenical matters'.
    My guess-timate for advice would be: "nothing specific" - I.e. nothing outside of what they should be doing already.

    Is it fair to say the holy folks, have actually little to fear anyway?
    That is: they have 'full dominion' over the concept of any physical earthly death.

    Maybe concern should instead be felt for residents in modern athiest China's Wuhan,
    - that were door-welded shut into their apartment blocks with no hope, or concept outside of the physical.

    The Wu-flu is simply one small peice of a large jigsaw in a sequence of already expected events.

    re:Luke (21:11): “There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences {plage(s)} in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.”

    Now as far as 'signs from heaven' bit, another guess is that relates to the topic of Wormwood, and the concept of quater of earth destruction (fires from the sky).
    One (very wild, to say the least) and specific theory put forward by some folks is for: '#99942 Apophis' (with touchdown on Mex-US border), on Friday, April 13, 2029.
    It will be viewable with the naked eye as a 'sign' from 2026 onwards before arrival.

    Heard the mighty Donald's brand new 'space force' (each member will swear allegiance upon a new version of the KJBible, and will actually attempt to prevent it)*

    Before that major event, are ever-present risks "by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth"
    I.e. WW3 (the great Bear), fall of 'New'Babylon, RFIDs(control), self-destruction of the church (near complete), and so on...

    *There is probably a good movie script in some of that, or a good long read book in the wider conceptual aspects.


  • #46
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Ayleen Plain Storehouse wrote: »
    Maybe concern should instead be felt for residents in modern athiest China's Wuhan,
    - that were door-welded shut into their apartment blocks with no hope, or concept outside of the physical.

    Seems to have worked well for them, China would appear to be over the worst of this pandemic with no new domestic cases; https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0319/1124040-chinese-virus-milestone/

    Self isolation and turning away from the physical world is nothing new to most religions, including Christianity which has a long tradition of asceticism.


  • #47
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ayleen Plain Storehouse wrote: »
    Maybe concern should instead be felt for residents in modern athiest China's Wuhan,
    - that were door-welded shut into their apartment blocks with no hope, or concept outside of the physical.
    What smacl said. Welding can do a lot of things, but one thing it cannot do is act as a barrier to hope of or faith in the metaphysical.


  • #48
    from_atozinc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭from_atozinc


    Can anyone tell me in PLAIN ENGLISH what this means:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-decrees-plenary-indulgence-for-all-catholics-dealing-with-coronavirus-1.4209681?mode=amp

    Is it more a less saying that the church forgives people for not going to a physical church to pray - whilst we are in this corona crisis.


  • #49
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    from_atozinc wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me in PLAIN ENGLISH what this means:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-decrees-plenary-indulgence-for-all-catholics-dealing-with-coronavirus-1.4209681?mode=amp

    Is it more a less saying that the church forgives people for not going to a physical church to pray - whilst we are in this corona crisis.
    No.

    First off, it has nothing to do with going to church or not going to church. There is no mention of this in the article. I don't know where you are getting this from.

    Secondly, it has nothing to do with forgiveness.

    The Catholic tradition distinguishes between forgiveness of sins, which follows from repentance, and punishment for sin, which is the natural outcome of sin and is not "magicked away" by forgiveness.

    Suppose I stab you and subsequently repent, my sin may be forgiven but the harm done by the stabbing - your injury, pain and suffering; my shame, remorse, regret and prison sentence - still persists.

    Spiritually, so far as the Catholic tradition is concerned, something similar holds good. Our repentance, however sincere, is not a get-out-of-jail free card. Our sins are forgiven, but we still need to accept and work through the consequences of our sin; the harm we have done to ourselves and others. That's a key aspect of repentance, in fact. And that can be painful.

    The attaching of an indulgence to a particular act - in this case, dealing with CV19 infection, either as a patient or as a carer - draws attention to the role that the act can play in spiritual growth and self-repair, if undertaken in the right spirit. They are not a subsitute for repentance, and they do not confer any kind of forgiveness.


  • #50
    from_atozinc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭from_atozinc


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No.

    First off, it has nothing to do with going to church or not going to church. There is no mention of this in the article. I don't know where you are getting this from.

    Secondly, it has nothing to do with forgiveness.

    The Catholic tradition distinguishes between forgiveness of sins, which follows from repentance, and punishment for sin, which is the natural outcome of sin and is not "magicked away" by forgiveness.

    Suppose I stab you and subsequently repent, my sin may be forgiven but the harm done by the stabbing - your injury, pain and suffering; my shame, remorse, regret and prison sentence - still persists.

    Spiritually, so far as the Catholic tradition is concerned, something similar holds good. Our repentance, however sincere, is not a get-out-of-jail free card. Our sins are forgiven, but we still need to accept and work through the consequences of our sin; the harm we have done to ourselves and others. That's a key aspect of repentance, in fact. And that can be painful.

    The attaching of an indulgence to a particular act - in this case, dealing with CV19 infection, either as a patient or as a carer - draws attention to the role that the act can play in spiritual growth and self-repair, if undertaken in the right spirit. They are not a subsitute for repentance, and they do not confer any kind of forgiveness.


    ye wha?


  • #51
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The attaching of an indulgence to a particular act - in this case, dealing with CV19 infection, either as a patient or as a carer - draws attention to the role that the act can play in spiritual growth and self-repair, if undertaken in the right spirit. They are not a subsitute for repentance, and they do not confer any kind of forgiveness.

    An indulgence?
    Please explain.


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