Is Atheism in compatible with a belief in the Afterlife?

hinault · 09-02-2017 7:58pm

smacl wrote: »

Regardless of your knowledge or lack thereof, there are many incompatible belief systems

Well you decided to ask me about the beliefs of muslims and hindus, so admitting that I don't know what they believe in, isn't regardless.

Whether their views are mutually incompatible is irrelevant too.

King Mob · 10-02-2017 12:59am

So far, all but one of your posts on this thread are you announcing that you are not going to address any points.
The one that wasn't this is you making sweeping claims that you have yet to support in the slightest.

hinault wrote: »

Well you decided to ask me about the beliefs of muslims and hindus, so admitting that I don't know what they believe in, isn't regardless.

Whether their views are mutually incompatible is irrelevant too.

It is very relevant, you just don't want to address it because you cannot do so.

The are many many examples of afterlifes that are entirely different from your version. They cannot be different interpretations of the same thing and they cannot exist at the same time as yours. The Hindu and Muslim beliefs are just examples (though it should worry you that you claim that an afterlife exists, yet have absolutely no knowledge of other systems.)

You must necessarily reject these other options if you believe in what you had described (Hell, Heaven, purgatory etc).
So we are asking how you can reject these in a way that lets you retain your beliefs.

However, you refuse to address this and it just makes it look like you are unable to address it.

If this is not the case, please answer the question and the others you are ignoring.
If this is the case, why not be intellectually honest and admit as much?

Hotblack Desiato · 10-02-2017 2:38am

hinault wrote: »

I disagree that it was clear.

Now that we've established that you think there is no afterlife renders redundant any further exchange between us on this topic.

This post concludes our exchange on this thread.

What was redundant was you posting your ridiculous claims in the first place when you have no ability or intention to defend them.

smacl · 10-02-2017 8:16am

hinault wrote: »

Whether their views are mutually incompatible is irrelevant too.

Not really. You claim the afterlife to be real, which would imply it is real for everyone, even those of different faiths who because of their conflicting beliefs will never get to experience it. I would suggest that your version of the afterlife is in fact a personally held belief rather than an objective reality until such time as you can tell us why your beliefs are more valid than those held by others. To suggest otherwise is taking the part of the ostrich in the rather wonderful Flanders and Swann song., obstinate but hardly effective.

nozzferrahhtoo · 10-02-2017 9:19am

hinault wrote: »

The afterlife isn't an hypothesis. The afterlife exists and is real.

At this point you are simply soap boxing your position without actually engaging in ANY level of discussion about it. Or is it that you genuinely think that repetition of an unsubstantiated assertion somehow lends extra weight to that assertion?

hinault wrote: »

However the fact that you disagree that the afterlife exists renders redundant any further exchange between us on this topic.

Not really. Because in every realm of rational discourse when two people disagree, they each try to SUBSTANTIATE their position. And that is the opposite of making further exchange redundant. It is the very foundation of further exchange.

It is YOU making further exchanges redundant by taking the "assert and repeat" MO to discourse that you have displayed so far. Because discourse is impossible with a skipping and repeating record.

hinault · 10-02-2017 11:28am

smacl wrote: »

Not really. You claim the afterlife to be real, which would imply it is real for everyone, even those of different faiths who because of their conflicting beliefs will never get to experience it.

The Bible teaches that only those who know Jesus and adhere to His teachings will be saved in the afterlife.

It may be the case that someone who's never heard of Jesus Christ and His teaching, could have lived a life which conforms to Jesus teachings. You accept this premise is possible?

smacl wrote: »

I would suggest that your version of the afterlife is in fact a personally held belief rather than an objective reality until such time as you can tell us why your beliefs are more valid than those held by others.

See above.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-02-2017 11:41am

Ah, the old "it's true because the bible says so". Dear oh dear.

smacl · 10-02-2017 12:17pm

hinault wrote: »

The Bible teaches that only those who know Jesus and adhere to His teachings will be saved in the afterlife.

It may be the case that someone who's never heard of Jesus Christ and His teaching, could have lived a life which conforms to Jesus teachings. You accept this premise is possible?

Do I accept the premise that someone who has never heard of Jesus meet the only those that know Jesus condition? No, its a direct contradiction. FWIW, in Inferno, Dante placed those who led virtuous lives but didn't know Jesus in Limbo, but from what I gather Limbo has gone out of fashion with modern Christians in recent decades.

hinault · 10-02-2017 12:24pm

smacl wrote: »

Do I accept the premise that someone who has never heard of Jesus meet the only those that know Jesus condition? No, its a direct contradiction. FWIW, in Inferno, Dante placed those who led virtuous lives but didn't know Jesus in Limbo, but from what I gather Limbo has gone out of fashion with modern Christians in recent decades.

What you accept is of no interest to me.

Church teaching on vincible and invincible ignorance, in moral theology.

King Mob · 10-02-2017 12:25pm

hinault wrote: »

The Bible teaches that only those who know Jesus and adhere to His teachings will be saved in the afterlife.

It may be the case that someone who's never heard of Jesus Christ and His teaching, could have lived a life which conforms to Jesus teachings. You accept this premise is possible?

See above.

Please be more specific in your baseless, unsupported, fictional claims.

If a person who has heard of Jesus still rejects him, but still leads a life according to his teachings, do they get in?

Is dodging and ignoring difficult questions also part of Jesus's teachings?

nozzferrahhtoo · 10-02-2017 12:35pm

hinault wrote: »

The Bible teaches that only those who know Jesus and adhere to His teachings will be saved in the afterlife.

And Scientology "teaches" about weird alien civilizations on earth over a period of multiple eons.

Telling us WHO teaches something or WHAT they teach is white noise. The only thing people on this forum are generally in is what the BASIS for the thing being taught is.

And if the sum total of your basis is summed up in the cheap, one liner. cop out. dismissal you flung in your last response to me..... then what we are talking about here is "no basis at all" frankly.

hinault wrote: »

So you accept that there is an afterlife?

hinault wrote: »

What you accept is of no interest to me.

So you come into a thread asking what people "accept" and then when people TELL you what they "accept" you reply claiming what people accept is of no interest to you.

I think that, right there, sums up ENTIRELY what we are dealing with here.

The simple fact is that you have not offered a SHRED of arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that even SUGGESTS in the existence of an after life. And, further, you have failed entirely to address a SHRED of the substantiation linking consciousness to the brain.

So you are in a minus position, having not supported your own position OR addressed any of the evidence going against it.

smacl · 10-02-2017 2:19pm

hinault wrote: »

You accept this premise is possible?

hinault wrote: »

What you accept is of no interest to me

You do realise that this is a discussion forum and not a pulpit ????

Pherekydes · 10-02-2017 2:38pm

hinault wrote: »

What you accept is of no interest to me.

Why do you read posts in this forum? Why do you post?

P.S. Jesus is quoted as saying "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This proves he wasn't god, because god would never send so many of his creations to hell just because they predeceased Jesus. Or lived in geographically distant locations.

hinault · 10-02-2017 3:40pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

This proves he wasn't god, because god would never send so many of his creations to hell just because they predeceased Jesus. Or lived in geographically distant locations.

Moses lived long before Jesus.

Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)

King Mob · 10-02-2017 3:58pm

hinault wrote: »

Moses lived long before Jesus.

Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)

By your logic, he absolutely would be in hell as he did not at all live as Jesus taught.

Unless murdering a guy and hiding the body is something you can do and still get into heaven with.

Pherekydes · 10-02-2017 4:41pm

hinault wrote: »

Moses lived long before Jesus.

Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)

Did Moses know Jesus?

I think my point is that Jesus would contend that Moses can't make it to heaven.

hinault · 10-02-2017 5:10pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Did Moses know Jesus?

I think my point is that Jesus would contend that Moses can't make it to heaven.

Incorrect.

I suggested to another poster that he/she (smacl) acquaint themselves with Moral Theology and the issue of Ignorance, earlier on this thread namely vincible and invincible ignorance.

Put simply, Moses life predated the arrival of Jesus Christ. Therefore Moses through no fault of his own could not have been aware of Jesus teaching.

In the meantime we know Moses is in Heaven because the apostles witnessed Jesus speaking with Moses at the Transfiguration.

Similarly today, there may well some people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or His teaching, through no fault of their own but who may be living a life which conforms to God's righteous judments.

smacl · 10-02-2017 5:39pm

hinault wrote: »

I suggested to another poster that he/she (smacl) acquaint themselves with Moral Theology and the issue of Ignorance, earlier on this thread namely vincible and invincible ignorance.

You need to establish some common ground with any atheist posters here before basing an argument on religious dogma, as we clearly neither share nor accept your religious beliefs. You might be better off discussing this with your fellow Christians on the Christianity forum. In this forum 'God did it' is not accepted as a rational answer to any question.

King Mob · 10-02-2017 6:20pm

hinault wrote: »

In the meantime we know Moses is in Heaven because the apostles witnessed Jesus speaking with Moses at the Transfiguration.

But Moses killed a person, hid the body and did nothing to seek forgiveness for it.
You are now saying either that murder is something that is acceptable in the teachings of Jesus, or that Moses got a special, unfair pass.

hinault wrote: »

Similarly today, there may well some people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or His teaching, through no fault of their own but who may be living a life which conforms to God's righteous judments.

But what about people who know about Jesus and reject him, yet are not bad people? Are these people sent to Hell? Your logic says that they should.

Perhaps you should actually engage and stop ignoring questions and try to clear some of this up.

Pretending questions don't exist do not make them go away, it just makes your position seem weak and dishonest.

hinault · 10-02-2017 9:53pm

smacl wrote: »

You need to establish some common ground with any atheist posters here before basing an argument on religious dogma, as we clearly neither share nor accept your religious beliefs

There isn't any common ground to be had.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-02-2017 9:59pm

hinault wrote: »

There isn't any common ground to be had.

So you're simply soapboxing then?

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2017 7:58pm

If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

hinault · 12-02-2017 8:15pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

(Invincibly) ignorant people have every chance of being saved.

Jesus commanded His apostles to preach and make disciples of all nations and peoples.

Bristolscale7 · 12-02-2017 8:37pm

hinault wrote: »

Moses lived long before Jesus.

Are you contending that Moses is in Hell (assuming that you believe that the afterlife exist)

In the middle ages to rehabilitate Aristotle the christian church did some retroactive higgery jiggery that let's pre jesus people into heaven.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-02-2017 9:01pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

A few years back I got a quite lengthy random spam email about Islam. I'm convinced the aim was not to win conversions but to damn 'infidels' to hell as they could no longer use ignorance as a defence!

donaldtramp · 12-02-2017 11:24pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If anyone with knowledge of Jesus is damned if they reject him, telling ignorant people about him is profoundly immoral.

Wow Zubeneschmali, you've converted me to Atheism... The irony that this is your way of preaching, I'm sure the athetist gods will be finding this logic very immoral of you..

Hotblack Desiato · 13-02-2017 12:00am

donaldtramp wrote: »

Wow Zubeneschmali, you've converted me to Atheism... The irony that this is your way of preaching, I'm sure the athetist gods will be finding this logic very immoral of you..

End of a bottle post if ever I read one.

hinault · 13-02-2017 1:08am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

In the middle ages to rehabilitate Aristotle the christian church did some retroactive higgery jiggery that let's pre jesus people into heaven.

Given that the New Testament was written centuries before "the Middle Ages", and the gospels attest to Jesus and Moses talking to one another, I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

King Mob · 13-02-2017 1:16am

hinault wrote: »

Given that the New Testament was written centuries before "the Middle Ages", and the gospels attest to Jesus and Moses talking to one another, I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

A lot of the modern interpretation of the bible was formed in the middle ages by philosophers like Aquinas. The idea of people being born before Jesus being redeemed came about because a lot of those medieval Christian philosophers were getting a hard on for the Greek philosophers. And they couldn't very well be using his writings if he was burning in hell with the rest of the heathens.

The bible makes no mention of pre-Jesus people being saved.
Moses and Moses alone does not really count with him being God's prophet and all. Plus with the murder he committed, he shouldn't have even been let into Heaven, which calls your premise into question.

Are you arguing that it was only Moses and other special cases?

And you continue to avoid the question about people today who reject Jesus.
Do they get into heaven, yes or no?

Zubeneschamali · 13-02-2017 11:55am

hinault wrote: »

Jesus commanded His apostles to preach and make disciples of all nations and peoples.

Yes, he did a lot of immoral stuff, if we are to believe the Bible.

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 6:48pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, he did a lot of immoral stuff, if we are to believe the Bible.

Since when is making people aware of a different way of life "immoral"? In fact, for the times that were in it, it was a pretty moral thing to be doing. Telling people that they don't have to be a slave to some "lord" and freeing people from oppression? Alright Mr. Old Fashioned.

Zubeneschamali · 13-02-2017 6:53pm

donaldtramp wrote: »

Since when is making people aware of a different way of life "immoral"?

Try and follow the argument:

1) People who have never heard of Jesus can get into heaven by living a good life.

2) People who have heard of Jesus but reject him are damned even if they live otherwise good lives.

(These are not things I believe, I do not believe in gods or afterlives at all).

If these two premises are true, then telling people about Jesus, people who do not already know, will lead some of them to reject Jesus and be damned even though they live otherwise good lives and would have gotten into heaven if you had kept your yap shut.

So: telling people about jesus causes good people to go to Hell. You should obviously not do that.

Jesus telling you to do it is instructing you to cause good people to go to Hell. Immoral as, well, Hell.

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 6:57pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Try and follow the argument:

1) People who have never heard of Jesus can get into heaven by living a good life.

2) People who have heard of Jesus but reject him are damned even if they live otherwise good lives.

(These are not things I believe, I do not believe in gods or afterlives at all).

If these two premises are true, then telling people about Jesus, people who do not already know, will lead some of them to reject Jesus and be damned even though they live otherwise good lives and would have gotten into heaven if you had kept your yap shut.

So: telling people about jesus causes good people to go to Hell. You should obviously not do that.

Jesus telling you to do it is instructing you to cause good people to go to Hell. Immoral as, well, Hell.

I mean, clearly you're an atheist because that second point is completely not true. In fact, it's a strong belief in Christianity that those who reject god can make up for it if they live a good life. You don't have to go to church or pray to get into heaven and forgiveness is the #1 belief in Christianity, so it'd be an extreme contradiction for him not to forgive non-believers.

Please educate yourself on different religions, and learn more about how they work before criticizing them. Nobody who doesn't let a preacher preach to them has the right to make assumptions on their religion.

Zubeneschamali · 13-02-2017 7:00pm

donaldtramp wrote: »

In fact, it's a strong belief in Christianity that those who reject god can make up for it if they live a good life.

Fine, your denomination does not accept that premise. Lots of them do:
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 7:05pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Fine, your denomination does not accept that premise. Lots of them do:
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Wow, quoting the bible to prove your knowledge. I mean, assuming that quote is legitimate: There are still hundreds of different ways of interpreting a sacred text. You really think that Adam & Eve were real? I mean, unless you're a fundamentalist, you have to believe that there are some metaphors in these parables. I could interpret that quote (and I do), that when you face your final judgement at the end of your life, that you must accept Jesus as your God, otherwise you'd only be causing havoc within the gates of heaven. You would of course wait in the purgatory until you change your mind if you lived out a good life.

recedite · 13-02-2017 7:31pm

donaldtramp wrote: »

In fact, it's a strong belief in Christianity that those who reject god can make up for it if they live a good life....

Please educate yourself on different religions, and learn more about how they work before criticizing them...

Where are you getting this doctrine from?
It seems like you have become confused by the longstanding "Faith V Good Works" theological debate.
But that is something different; one point of view says Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.
Another says Faith alone = ticket to heaven.
Neither of them says No Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.

So unless you can quote some piece of bible text or something, we'll just have to presume you pulled this unique piece of "Christian doctrine" out of your own ass.

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 7:37pm

recedite wrote: »

Where are you getting this doctrine from?
It seems like you have become confused by the longstanding "Faith V Good Works" theological debate.
But that is something different; one point of view says Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.
Another says Faith alone = ticket to heaven.
Neither of them says No Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.

So unless you can quote some piece of bible text or something, we'll just have to presume you pulled this unique piece of "Christian doctrine" out of your own ass.

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

So, what he says on the last day is what will judge him, hence the saying "at the end of the day" commonly heard today. It doesn't matter who you are, whether you followed or not, but at the end of the day, it is the word god has spoken which will determine his/her faith.

recedite · 13-02-2017 8:13pm

As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.…

That's just Jesus saying its not me judging you. My daddy will judge you. So you better do as I say.

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 8:19pm

recedite wrote: »

That's just Jesus saying its not me judging you. My daddy will judge you. So you better do as I say.

No, that's just your way of interpreting the quote.

recedite · 13-02-2017 9:00pm

You're welcome to interpret it any way you like. That's the great thing about the bible.
I just question whether there is anybody else who shares this doctrine of your denomination though, and whether it can even be called a Christian denomination?

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 9:10pm

recedite wrote: »

You're welcome to interpret it any way you like. That's the great thing about the bible.
I just question whether there is anybody else who shares this doctrine of your denomination though, and whether it can even be called a Christian denomination?

I'm Roman Catholic. Most roman Catholics tend to have a unique outlook on the bible themselves. Your outlook does not solely determine your denomination. Protestants have an EXTREMELY different outlook than Catholics, and Orthodox alike.

recedite · 13-02-2017 9:22pm

donaldtramp wrote: »

I'm Roman Catholic.

OK, well in that case, this is officially your doctrine;
Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.

If you have any more questions about "interpreting" the bible, please see your parish priest. He is there to read the bible, so you don't have to

donaldtramp · 13-02-2017 10:25pm

recedite wrote: »

OK, well in that case, this is officially your doctrine;
Faith + Good Works = ticket to heaven.

If you have any more questions about "interpreting" the bible, please see your parish priest. He is there to read the bible, so you don't have to

I'm assuming you're an atheist, and I really don't care what your interpretation of my denomination's belief is. We are free to exercise our own ideas, beliefs and opinions within the solid boundaries of the denomination itself. There are fundamentalist Catholics, who believe the bible literally & word-for-word. On the other hand, there are those like me, who believe that the bible is full of mystery and carries it's own metaphorical message.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-02-2017 12:18am

donaldtramp wrote: »

Most roman Catholics tend to have a unique outlook on the bible themselves.

Most Roman Catholics have probably never opened a bible.

hinault · 14-02-2017 12:55am

donaldtramp wrote: »

. You don't have to go to church or pray to get into heaven

If you are Catholic, you have to attend Mass every Sunday and holy day. To deliberately not do so, is a mortal sin. You die in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell.

14-02-2017 1:12am

Lads

Atheists who'd like to consider the question of a belief in the afterlife might want to use this thread to develop the idea.

Consistently engaging with evangelists for Catholicism (I'm being kind here tbh, the behaviour exhibited seems to me to be more of a 'troll any atheist willing to be trolled') in order to discuss Christian beliefs regarding the afterlife is pretty much the opposite thing. And an entire forum exists for that.

Thread question: nothing in atheism precludes thoughts on the afterlife. Nothing in rational thought suggests any evidence for it, but you can believe in it and still be atheist.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-02-2017 2:52am

hinault wrote: »

If you are Catholic, you have to attend Mass every Sunday and holy day. To deliberately not do so, is a mortal sin. You die in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell.

You might want to take your tiresome arguments to the christianity forum.

NIMAN · 14-02-2017 3:07am

hinault wrote: »

If you are Catholic, you have to attend Mass every Sunday and holy day. To deliberately not do so, is a mortal sin. You die in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell.

No exceptions?

What if you miss 1 deliberately and you live to 90yrs old? Is that guaranteed hell?

If so, I'd say that's a damn harsh god you follow.

King Mob · 14-02-2017 4:10am

hinault wrote: »

If you are Catholic, you have to attend Mass every Sunday and holy day. To deliberately not do so, is a mortal sin. You die in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell.

Could you explain how this is a fair rule?

What about missing mass justifies eternal torture?

donaldtramp · 14-02-2017 7:24am

hinault wrote: »

If you are Catholic, you have to attend Mass every Sunday and holy day. To deliberately not do so, is a mortal sin. You die in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell.

Okay, first fo all:

- Mortal sin wrecks your relationship with god, however you can still repair said relationship, it's obviously worse than a venial sin and I accept that it can send you to hell, Mortal sin is not, not attending mass every sunday?

Think you get that from the 10 commandments mate, which were written by Moses, and although they're holy - and so are the 617 jewish laws before them - they're not valid in the eyes of Christians today.

Jesus said: There is only one commandment thou must follow, love God and love thy neighbour.

Is Atheism in compatible with a belief in the Afterlife?

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