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What should be the Churches response to Covid19 See Mod Warning in post 1

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    #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jellybaby_1 wrote: »
    I know of a couple of people who have refused to be vaccinated. I doubt I'll be rushing back if they will be there, after all even if I have all my vaccines I can still pick it up from others and pass it on.
    That can happen anywhere, there are a few people in my office who are like that, nothing can be done. I think once you have your vaccine the responsible things is to go back to normal as much as possible by going out etc, business and the economy need the help.


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    #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Some sensible cop on it seems from the govt! Great news!

    https://twitter.com/MichaelKellyIC/status/1388233839697403907


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    #124
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,180 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    Yahir Gray Bazooka wrote: »
    Some sensible cop on it seems from the govt! Great news!

    https://twitter.com/MichaelKellyIC/status/1388233839697403907

    That is more sensible. Churches range from places that can hold thousands to little chapels holding maybe fifty. St Kevin's church would otherwise have needed eight Low Masses.


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    #125
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,180 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    The two children of Pat Sweeney are still held by TUSLA at location unknown. The point of this post is that Pat filmed the Gardaí in Athlone Corpus Christi chapel, and this was a point the Gardaí made no effort to hide, that his use of the phone to film them was noticed, and this was what to happen. Pat was initially detained until the Mental Health Act on a very old complaint, released after an assessment by a doctor, children still held in God knows where.


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    #126
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    The two children of Pat Sweeney are still held by TUSLA at location unknown. The point of this post is that Pat filmed the Gardaí in Athlone Corpus Christi chapel, and this was a point the Gardaí made no effort to hide, that his use of the phone to film them was noticed, and this was what to happen. Pat was initially detained until the Mental Health Act on a very old complaint, released after an assessment by a doctor, children still held in God knows where.

    Can you link to where it's been announced that he has been accessed etc, because I wouldn't believe a word coming from the national party


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    #127
    onform
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭onform


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Can you link to where it's been announced that he has been accessed etc, because I wouldn't believe a word coming from the national party

    More context on the story here, which the NP thought fit not to share because it didn't suit their own agenda:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/high-court-fathers-loses-challenge-sons-face-mask-france-5384574-Mar2021/?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true


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    #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    onform wrote: »
    More context on the story here, which the NP thought fit not to share because it didn't suit their own agenda:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/high-court-fathers-loses-challenge-sons-face-mask-france-5384574-Mar2021/?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

    I'm sure that the person who I asked will confirm if this is the same person as the one they named, and where they read that he was accessed and found mentally competent.

    As for the national party and their supporters breaking the 8th seems to be a common trait, same goes for the conspiracy theory peddlers and those believe them and repeat their guff.


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    #129
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't know about this stuff, the video from the house certainly looks bad, but there may be a lot more to the story.

    There has undoubtedly been Garda malpractice over this whole Covid thing (not least fining Fr Hughes in Cavan for breaking a non-existent law and the hassle he got around that) but I can't offer any informed opinion on this incident.

    Anyway, not long until Monday now, local churches here are flat out getting ready and signing up ushers and that. Great community spirit.


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    #130
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    The two children of Pat Sweeney are still held by TUSLA at location unknown. The point of this post is that Pat filmed the Gardaí in Athlone Corpus Christi chapel, and this was a point the Gardaí made no effort to hide, that his use of the phone to film them was noticed, and this was what to happen. Pat was initially detained until the Mental Health Act on a very old complaint, released after an assessment by a doctor, children still held in God knows where.
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I'm sure that the person who I asked will confirm if this is the same person as the one they named, and where they read that he was accessed and found mentally competent.

    As for the national party and their supporters breaking the 8th seems to be a common trait, same goes for the conspiracy theory peddlers and those believe them and repeat their guff.

    More on this in the broadsheet here where Pat Sweeney is named.


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    #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Very odd case, taking the children at 3am and detaining him under the mental health act would seem unnecessary under the circumstances of which we know - I suspect (and hope) there is more to the story, otherwise it is very disturbing.


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    #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yahir Gray Bazooka wrote: »
    Very odd case, taking the children at 3am and detaining him under the mental health act would seem unnecessary under the circumstances of which we know - I suspect (and hope) there is more to the story, otherwise it is very disturbing.

    Personally I haven't met a sane person who believes in conspiracy theories.


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    #133
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yahir Gray Bazooka wrote: »
    Very odd case, taking the children at 3am and detaining him under the mental health act would seem unnecessary under the circumstances of which we know - I suspect (and hope) there is more to the story, otherwise it is very disturbing.
    There's nearly always more than you are told in cases that are dealt with under the mental health legislation. For obvious reasons, if somebody's mental health is in issue, it's generally not in their best interests to lay out their story in detail in the media for the titillation of the public, so the medical and legal authorities are extremely tight-lipped in what they will say. The person concerned is generally free to say anything they like but they, too, may have solid reasons for not wishing to expose themselves in this way. So they may say nothing, or they may be highly selective in what they say.


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    #134
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,180 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    His mental assessment gave him the all clear. It seems reasonably clear that this was a response to making the bullies look foolish. Ideally he should have kept his peace, for the SSPX do not like talking in their chapel, and he might not have come to notice of the Gardaí who brought up the filming along with chasing the two boys. Now thankfully, they are with the mother who has part custody, rather than being left with TUSLA, which no child deserves.


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    #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    His mental assessment gave him the all clear. It seems reasonably clear that this was a response to making the bullies look foolish. Ideally he should have kept his peace, for the SSPX do not like talking in their chapel, and he might not have come to notice of the Gardaí who brought up the filming along with chasing the two boys. Now thankfully, they are with the mother who has part custody, rather than being left with TUSLA, which no child deserves.

    Can you provide a link regarding his mental assessment?


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    #136
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,052 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Mod: can we get back on topic please. Speculation about one individual for whom we have little reliable information of their personal or family affairs, is hardly relevant to the overall OP topic.


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    #137
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,180 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Can you provide a link regarding his mental assessment?

    I think the mods wish to keep it as Church and COVID only and to not dwell specifically on Pat Sweeney.
    You can look that up, if you want. The simple fact he was released, well never detained, and the children passed to the mother who has part custody, and was due to have them at that point, should suffice. The matter is private. Anyhow.

    It seems a reversion to the prior COVID precautioned public liturgy at present. It is bizarre given how any Church liturgy, be it Mass or Office, involves people who are static, and with rows roped off, spaced, meaning so little risk of passing any virus compared to other things. Perhaps the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference (ICBC) lobbied quietly, but it seems the exercise public religion simply happened along with the loosening of other regulations. Ireland has an extraordinary excess of bishops. They do preserve many mediaeval ecclesiastical territories, and a greater number of bishops is seen as a way of making Church leadership more accessible, but to me, they seem like passengers or dead weight. It won't happen though, given the outcry. It would seem like punishing rural Ireland which still has healthy Novus Ordo attendances. Yet consolidate territories might allow localised formation and training of priests. It might provide the resources for a more lively response to COVID and the great number of other challenges. The ICBC seem as now to be a tepid crew.



    The bizarre actions of Cllr Eliza O'Donovan (another SD washout) and her crew, are a response to a grassroots efforts to say the Rosary at churches until now closed. The people were spaced, but you had Eliza and a typical aged Antifa activist aggressively filming the people, including children, and her friends play some very sordid music. I'm sure some will defend her, but the point was a bigger stir was made by a lay effort. Anyhow, bishops did almost nothing, or if they did, they kept it quiet. A very timid meetings with government, don't cut it.


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    #138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    I think the mods wish to keep it as Church and COVID only and to not dwell specifically on Pat Sweeney.
    You can look that up, if you want. The simple fact he was released, well never detained, and the children passed to the mother who has part custody, and was due to have them at that point, should suffice. The matter is private. Anyhow.

    It seems a reversion to the prior COVID precautioned public liturgy at present. It is bizarre given how any Church liturgy, be it Mass or Office, involves people who are static, and with rows roped off, spaced, meaning so little risk of passing any virus compared to other things. Perhaps the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference (ICBC) lobbied quietly, but it seems the exercise public religion simply happened along with the loosening of other regulations. Ireland has an extraordinary excess of bishops. They do preserve many mediaeval ecclesiastical territories, and a greater number of bishops is seen as a way of making Church leadership more accessible, but to me, they seem like passengers or dead weight. It won't happen though, given the outcry. It would seem like punishing rural Ireland which still has healthy Novus Ordo attendances. Yet consolidate territories might allow localised formation and training of priests. It might provide the resources for a more lively response to COVID and the great number of other challenges. The ICBC seem as now to be a tepid crew.



    The bizarre actions of Cllr Eliza O'Donovan (another SD washout) and her crew, are a response to a grassroots efforts to say the Rosary at churches until now closed. The people were spaced, but you had Eliza and a typical aged Antifa activist aggressively filming the people, including children, and her friends play some very sordid music. I'm sure some will defend her, but the point was a bigger stir was made by a lay effort. Anyhow, bishops did almost nothing, or if they did, they kept it quiet. A very timid meetings with government, don't cut it.

    To be honest, I would expect that people posting in a forum like this to be 100% honest and provide actual factual evidence to backup a statement that they make.

    The rest reads like a national party rant especially the antifa part


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    #139
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    To be honest, I would expect that people posting in a forum like this to be 100% honest and provide actual factual evidence to backup a statement that they make.

    The rest reads like a national party rant especially the antifa part

    I'd say you're not far off the mark on that,
    The channel that created the above video has a playlist featuring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01ColnIbPtk&list=PLz2mpx_LnfpfWZqFSIwVYHJkltHpf06V8


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    #140
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    That is more sensible. Churches range from places that can hold thousands to little chapels holding maybe fifty. St Kevin's church would otherwise have needed eight Low Masses.


    Not really fair though is it. Think of all the groups of 50 Croke Park could hold for a match and same goes for stadia round the country but they are not allowed.


    Plenty of musicians going without work for a year now too.


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    #141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Not really fair though is it. Think of all the groups of 50 Croke Park could hold for a match and same goes for stadia round the country but they are not allowed.


    Plenty of musicians going without work for a year now too.

    Yes, I agree that we should now allow people to go to matches.


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    #142
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    I think the mods wish to keep it as Church and COVID only and to not dwell specifically on Pat Sweeney.
    You can look that up, if you want. The simple fact he was released, well never detained, and the children passed to the mother who has part custody, and was due to have them at that point, should suffice. The matter is private. Anyhow.

    It seems a reversion to the prior COVID precautioned public liturgy at present. It is bizarre given how any Church liturgy, be it Mass or Office, involves people who are static, and with rows roped off, spaced, meaning so little risk of passing any virus compared to other things. Perhaps the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference (ICBC) lobbied quietly, but it seems the exercise public religion simply happened along with the loosening of other regulations. Ireland has an extraordinary excess of bishops. They do preserve many mediaeval ecclesiastical territories, and a greater number of bishops is seen as a way of making Church leadership more accessible, but to me, they seem like passengers or dead weight. It won't happen though, given the outcry. It would seem like punishing rural Ireland which still has healthy Novus Ordo attendances. Yet consolidate territories might allow localised formation and training of priests. It might provide the resources for a more lively response to COVID and the great number of other challenges. The ICBC seem as now to be a tepid crew.



    The bizarre actions of Cllr Eliza O'Donovan (another SD washout) and her crew, are a response to a grassroots efforts to say the Rosary at churches until now closed. The people were spaced, but you had Eliza and a typical aged Antifa activist aggressively filming the people, including children, and her friends play some very sordid music. I'm sure some will defend her, but the point was a bigger stir was made by a lay effort. Anyhow, bishops did almost nothing, or if they did, they kept it quiet. A very timid meetings with government, don't cut it.

    True, it was the laity that led from the front on this.

    But it is worth noting, that when the Bishops finally had enough and got angry (considering how angry public statements were I am sure much was said privately) things changed quickly. Not quite back to normal yet, but we are well on the way.


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    #143
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Yahir Gray Bazooka wrote: »
    Yes, I agree that we should now allow people to go to matches.

    I agree too. But church should have to follow the same rules as there other social gatherings


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    #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Here we go again, Varadkar, with an off hand comment, appears to "ban" communions and confirmations. One priest says he will ignore it and go ahead, unless his Bishop says otherwise.
    In a personal statement tonight, Fr Toomey said he would also continue to celebrate baptisms and other sacraments if families want him to and in consultation with schools, “until such time as my bishop advises otherwise”.

    Bishop Phonsie Cullinan leads the diocese of Waterford and Lismore.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-says-he-will-defyleo-varadkarsoff-the-cuff-postponement-ofcommunions-and-confirmations-40596291.html

    It will be interesting to see what His Grace, Bishop Cullinan, will say.

    Interview on Morning Ireland: https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21975480


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    #145
    myfreespirit
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭myfreespirit


    Yahir Gray Bazooka wrote: »
    Here we go again, Varadkar, with an off hand comment, appears to "ban" communions and confirmations. One priest says he will ignore it and go ahead, unless his Bishop says otherwise.


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-says-he-will-defyleo-varadkarsoff-the-cuff-postponement-ofcommunions-and-confirmations-40596291.html

    It will be interesting to see what His Grace, Bishop Cullinan, will say.

    Interview on Morning Ireland: https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21975480


    Hopefully, An Garda Siochana will have taken note of Fr.Toomey's plan to breach public health guidelines, and will move to deal with the situation.
    No one, including Catholic priests, has any right to ignore public health guidelines.


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    #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    myfreespirit wrote: »
    Hopefully, An Garda Siochana will have taken note of Fr.Toomey's plan to breach public health guidelines, and will move to deal with the situation.
    No one, including Catholic priests, has any right to ignore public health guidelines.
    "Guidelines" are law now? A point the priest noted in his interview...


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    #147
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,482 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Yahir Gray Bazooka wrote: »
    "Guidelines" are law now? A point the priest noted in his interview...

    No, but the CC is supposed to be looking after its members.

    If he is so determined to get it done, then zoom. Or do it outside? Or limit it to just the children, parents can watch on Camera.

    Instead he is creating an issue where none exists which will lead to others asking why they should bother.

    If we take it that illness, and pandemic, are challenges sent by god to test our love and faith in him, then I would argue that this priests is failing in that he is putting himself and the church ahead of the love of others.


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    #148
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Not withstanding the usual anti-Catholicism / Christianity,
    Don't think they should be going ahead, it's the right call, the house gatherings afterwards, and the pressure to attend them, are the big risk, until more people are vaccinated, another month or two will make a big difference.


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    #149
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sacraments cannot be done "virtually" on Zoom, telephone or whatever. It has been "two weeks to flatten the curve" for well over a year now.

    I think the priest is right - lots of people are vaccinated now, and many respected people are calling the doomsday projections of hospitalizations and deaths nonsense. Even the Zero-Covid folks are saying reopening should go ahead. Meanwhile 500 people can now go to a match, 8000 to Croke park, occasions where it is well established that no one mixes after, rather they go calmly home maintaining a 2m social distance the entire time. Mass has successfully been ongoing for some time now. Weddings with 50 people are now allowed also. But now it seems that baptisms - for the first time - are being included on the no-no list which makes no sense whatsoever.

    There is no reason why confirmations cannot be held with sufficient precautions, outdoors if needs be. They should offer two ceremonies, one now, and one later in the year for those who don't feel comfortable now or want to wait for pubs etc to be open to 'enjoy' it as a social occasion. If anything, it makes more sense to have the ceremonies when people cannot book function rooms, pack into restaurants etc.

    The church had to up the pressure to defend the Mass earlier in the year and successfully got that over the line. They have to do the same here.

    Important to note however that the alleged prohibition on confirmation, communions and (for the first time) baptisms are merely guidelines with no basis in law for the time being. Any "breach" of these, or support of same is not a breach or support of the breaking of any law. The Gardaí exceeded their authority previously in enforcing a non-existent ban on the Mass and harassed and intimidated that priest in Cavan, so people won't fall for that tactic twice, nor is it fair to put Gardai in that position by telling them something is a law when it isn't.

    Of course, should these "guidelines" be made law, that does make a material difference.


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    #150
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    As an aside, it is often a useful (and entertaining) exercise to have a look at the "most thanked" posts on this website each day. They are a fair barometer of the attitudes of people on this website. It has been interesting to observe this throughout the course of the pandemic. There are not many heavily thanked posts now supporting the government's latest actions, many who did up to now have changed their tune (which of course does not mean that they now retrospectively think that the govt were wrong all along, merely that they are wrong now).

    I do feel sorry for NPHET though. They are civil servants, with a specific brief to make recommendations based on certain criteria. By its very nature it will be a conservative recommendation. Civil servants make recommendations to ministers every day of the week, sometimes the same ones for years on end, but these are roundly dismissed or ignored, on a routine basis, for a whole myriad of reasons. Which is how things should be. This is the job of politicians, to make policy decisions on the basis of their political philosophy and objectives, a task which an informed electorate selected them for. Most politicians now do not seem to have a political philosophy or objective, beyond getting elected again, and hopefully not messing up too much along the way. So faced with the most difficult decisions in a long time they have hidden behind civil servants which is unfair. This is nothing new, Charles Haughey is the last politician who demonstrated any actual decisive leadership (note this is a neutral comment, does not mean he was good!)

    Am I right in saying that the restrictions are more severe in some ways than they were last summer?


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    #151
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,482 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And this priests expertise is in what exactly? How much of the data has he analysed? How he taken into account the increased infection rates of the new variants?

    Or he is simply complaining that he feels badly effected and that despite loads of people having to give up far more than delaying a Sacrement (that can be done just in a different manner than usual) he feels religion should be given special treatment?

    He is putting his own feelings, and what he sees as the needs of the church, ahead of what society needs.

    He is quite entitled to put forward his arguments, I am sure the church are looking to get as much open as possible, but simply coming out and saying he will ignore the directions of the elected government of this country is not a good look, IMO.


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