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17-11-2016, 18:12   #16
montgo
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On this baptism record on 17 June 1878, what is the comment in Latin (?) following the note on margin re Fogarty/William's marriage to Forde on Feb 24 1925.
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17-11-2016, 19:56   #17
spurious
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Whatever it is, the same thing is written a couple of lines up and also closer to the bottom of the page.
It looks like 'vidi ne temere register'.

Was there a register kept of 'mixed' marriages?
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17-11-2016, 20:23   #18
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Thanks, spurious.

I don't know of any register for mixed marriages.
I believe both Fogarty & Forde were RC.
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18-11-2016, 09:04   #19
tabbey
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Originally Posted by spurious View Post
Whatever it is, the same thing is written a couple of lines up and also closer to the bottom of the page.
It looks like 'vidi ne temere register'.

Was there a register kept of 'mixed' marriages?
This would make sense, as Fogarty would generally suggest RC gene pool, while Ford is more associated with non RC.
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18-11-2016, 10:35   #20
montgo
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C. Forde was baptised RC and all her family are showing as RC on the Censu. Her father was married in Catholic church but I haven't yet researched further back as the RC parish records are only available from 1840s.

Many thanks
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18-11-2016, 10:51   #21
KildareFan
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just checked on what Ne Temere means - 'not rashly/blindly' - the first two words of what became known as the Ne Temere decree published in 1908 which regulated marriages between Roman Catholics and other religions. The non catholic party had to sign an agreement that the children of the marriage would be brought up Roman Catholic,

The word "vidi" means "I saw" so I would translate the note as 'I saw the Ne Temere register' which implies there is a list of people married under the Ne Temere regulations - maybe the priests kept a register to check up on them?

I am speculating that the priest checked the 1878 baptisms to ensure that the two parties to the marriage were baptised catholic...

Last edited by KildareFan; 18-11-2016 at 10:56.
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18-11-2016, 11:19   #22
montgo
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Ah, that might explain the comment. Many thks.
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22-11-2016, 05:51   #23
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We remember the Ne Temere decree nowadays because of its strictures against mixed marriages, but in fact it dealt with a number of topics, one of them being the undesirability of secret marriages or clandestine marriages and to avoid these it adopted a rule, or rather reinforced and extended an existing rule, to the effect that Catholics, to be validly married, must be married in canonical form in the presence of at least two witnesses. The decree also required the keeping of a register of marriages, and the entry in registers of baptism of the later marriage of a baptised person.

The words "ne temere" are actually the opening words of this section of the decree - lest people rashly marry in secret, we're adopting this rule requiring marriage to be public. Nothing to do with mixed marriages.

So I suspect the Ne Temere register was simply the register of marriages which the Ne Temere decree required each parish to keep. It's not a register of mixed marriages specifically; it's a register of all marriages celebrated in the parish. What this notation means is that the marriage of William Fogarty, noted in the Register of Baptism, is recorded in full in the Register of Marriages for the same Parish, indicating that William was married in the Parish in which he was baptised. Indicating that he probably married a local girl, since it was normal to marry in the bride's home parish.
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22-11-2016, 14:41   #24
montgo
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Many thanks for further explanation.

William was baptised in Glanworth, however he married in Ballylanders in 1925 where his wife lived.
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01-08-2017, 19:39   #25
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Question on Latin dispensations please:

Marriage from 1908 in Harrington St parish in Dublin on the usual proforma book. The people of interest are Michael Bradley/Mary Lawless.

The dispensations column has either "disp" or what looks like the number 3 in most cases.


Any thoughts on what this means?
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01-08-2017, 19:55   #26
Aineoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkypinky View Post
Question on Latin dispensations please:

Marriage from 1908 in Harrington St parish in Dublin on the usual proforma book. The people of interest are Michael Bradley/Mary Lawless.

The dispensations column has either "disp" or what looks like the number 3 in most cases.


Any thoughts on what this means?
Maybe it's a dispensation because of of consanguinity (marriage between 2nd
cousins). I don't know to be honest.
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01-08-2017, 23:48   #27
pedroeibar1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkypinky View Post
Question on Latin dispensations please:

Marriage from 1908 in Harrington St parish in Dublin on the usual proforma book. The people of interest are Michael Bradley/Mary Lawless.

The dispensations column has either "disp" or what looks like the number 3 in most cases.


Any thoughts on what this means?
It’s a Latin shorthand /shortcuts. At the header of the column is the word denuntiationes (a). The full expression is ‘factis tribus denunciationibus’ meaning ‘three marriage banns having been published
The ‘a’ reference is on the bottom of the page, Si dispensitum ferrit, notater et a quo., meaning ‘If a dispensation is made, note it, and by whom.’
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02-08-2017, 03:00   #28
Peregrinus
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Which suggests that, where "disp." appears, it means that the couple obtained a dispensation from the requirement to publish the banns.

The basic idea was that banns of marriage (announcements about forthcoming marriages) were read out in church on three successive weeks before the marriage was celebrated. The point was to prevent secret marriages, bigamy, etc; the community was put on notice that Jack and Mary were going to marry, and if anybody thought that, e.g., Jack was already married to Annie, they could raise an objection and the matter could be looked into.

You could avoid this by obtaining a marriage licence from the bishop - you satisfy the bishop with sworn declarations and supporting paperwork that you are both free to marry, and he issues a marriage licence, plus a dispensation from the requirement to publish the banns. You had to pay a fee for this. In time a class distinction arose - if you were but a humble proletarian you had your banns published; if you had pretensions to middle-class respectability you paid for a licence and dispensation.

Hence the entry in the marriage register showing whether banns were published or a dispensation was issued may give some clue as to the social status, or at least social pretensions, of the couples concerned.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 02-08-2017 at 05:29.
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02-08-2017, 09:20   #29
pinkypinky
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Thanks for that detailed explanation. I was aware of the 3 readings but didn't make the connection here.
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10-02-2019, 23:52   #30
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I know this is an old thread, I'll move this if there is a more recent thread where I should post.

I'm looking for a translation from Latin for the following which appears as a note on the marriage of Stephen Lyden and Stephen Lyden and Mary Walsh in Clifden in 1897. The following has been transcribed in the Notes field on rootsireland. Anyone know what it means?

"FACULTATIBUS MIHI ARCHREPISCOPO CONCESSIS DISPENSANTUR IN BANNIS - DISPENSATION." by P.L.

Since this is a transcription (no image for this record) the spelling might not be right.

Stephen was a widower at the time of his marriage to Mary Walsh. He was previously married to Anne Keane in 1895 in Clifden. There's a similar note on that marriage on rootsireland

"VI FACULATUM MIHI ARCHREPISCOPO CONCESSARUM DISPENSANTUR IN BANNIS" - DISPENSATION.
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