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What would rural Ireland look like without beef farmers ?

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    #32
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    older by the day wrote: »
    I have to laugh, at our dairy discussion group, one guy is constantly on about land abandonment, he has recently paid 8k an acre for reclaimed bog. If anyone knows of land being abandoned let me know, I'm stick it in my SFP.
    Plenty of small holdings gone wild down my way. Not quite sure what you mean by abandoned. These small holdings are not really being sold by inheritors too quickly for whatever reason.


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    #33
    390kid
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭390kid


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

    My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

    I don’t know about I have 2 brothers along with meself that are very keen on following it up. So if you know of anyone in the north half of the country with a sizable place that has no one for it give us a shout


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    #34
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,303 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

    My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

    I was actually talking to a Dutch lad who farms near my place in Cork about your ideas.

    He laughed hard.


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    #35
    SuperTortoise
    Registered Users Posts: 2,955 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    I'd say we will all find out fairly shortly.

    There are many problems in the sector, not helped one bit by successive governments turning a blind eye to rural Ireland, closing post offices, pubs, butchers, marts, garda stations, the only infastructure being built are the scraps and leftovers once city's and towns are taken care of, planning laws means it's almost impossible to build your own house on your own land they want everyone living in a town.
    Most politicians don't give a damn, all they care about is trying to look trendy on social media and securing the vote for the next election(jobs for the boys if there ever was one!)

    I watched TD's debate the "deal" put forward on Monday last on tv, of the 10 or so TD's i watched, only 1 linked the beef/suckler sector to the hundreds of thousands of jobs that the beef/suckler man props up in our "thriving" economy, they are clueless and useless.
    I read a factoid somewhere just last week that the beef/suckler sector supports more jobs directly than the multinationals we have based here, the same multinationals that are given huge tax breaks to stay, if the multinationals thought about leaving tomorrow there would be public outcry, beef/suckler sector is threatened with being wiped out and not a peep, it took RTE almost a month to start to cover the protests.

    Tin foil hat time!, i think it would suit the government if the beef/suckler sector were to fail and close down, land prices would plummit and anyone with a bit of land would be forced to plant it due to lack of alternative uses allowing the government to reach their carbon/emissions targets, seems to be a win/win situation for them allowing the beef/suckler sector to fail, cheap land means cheap compensation for the landowner to be the carbon offset.

    Sad situation really we are being told to produce beef for the same price as eastern european or south americans countries yet we live in one of the most expensive countries in the world, it's impossible, can't be done.
    But at this time it's very very hard to see a future for the beef/suckler sector and when that goes what's left of rural Ireland will go with it. Productive land will be used for dairy, everything else will be planted, people will live closer to where the jobs are in the city's.
    I would love to be proven wrong, i like rural life, it's not always fine and rosy but right now i'd take it every day of the week above living in an urban setting.


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    #36
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    I hope the poster doesnt mind - but I came across this post over in the Irish Beef vs Mercosor Beef in CA / IMHO forum. Reckon its relevant here ...
    eeeee wrote:
    I think we really need to think about what makes land valuable - is it just productivity? Or is it natural beauty, culture, social history, archeological and environmental value etc. 

    Saying we plant all marginal land is a huge, huge, huge mistake. There is so much local and social history bound up in land, so much culture. We have 20 acres we can't farm at home, it's full of native shrubs, bushes, trees etc. The biodiversity there is unreal. We have an awful lot of ditches and old pasture too, that once ripped up for forestry or reseeded is irreplaceable. Famine houses, full fiachras, a famine road, a few fairyforts (in fairness they're everywhere!) There is fcuk all of that kind of diversity in the golden vale.

    The only reason we've been able to keep the history and biodiversity on our farm is beef farming. Lose that and you lose so, so much with it. 

    I also see my father, who was born and reared on that land, and his father was a tenant on it before he got it off the land commission, knows where all the shores and drains are/should be, so when the council resurface the road he goes around telling them what to not block etc. When the don't listen roads flood, get torn up because of blocked shores etc.

    Once you plant land there's no going back. Without significant investment in it its destroyed for any other use. 
    I have absolutely no appetite for more monocultural sika spruce plantations. 

    Land is more than just a carbon sink, and needs to be understood for what it is in its entirety.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111293663&postcount=70


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    #37
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming. My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

    You ideas seem to come from some fluffy cloud level at best.

    Firstly the dutch primarily employ hot house production methods in their horticulture enterprises. This type of production requires huge amounts of energy, is heavily capital intensive and requires large amounts of artificial irrigation, pesticides and artificial fertilisers. And as such produce is often higly perishable - it is normally located in regions adjacent to transport hubs with rapid access to the rest of Europe. Growing your own in Ballybagle or wherever is not even close to this type of commercial production - so not comparable.

    As for food security - it sometimes takes others to see the value of our agriculture here. In 2017 Ireland was identified as the country best able to feed its people and the world’s most “food-secure” nation,

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

    way too many 'experts' who dont seem to have a clue about agriculture or growing conditions here - telling all and sundry what eveyone should be doing. And to those I say - put your money where your mouth is and start digging.


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    #38
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Danzy wrote: »
    I was actually talking to a Dutch lad who farms near my place in Cork about your ideas.

    He laughed hard.

    He could hardly have done otherwise, given that he was talking to an Irish farmer.


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    #39
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    gozunda wrote: »
    You ideas seem to come from some fluffy cloud level at best.

    Firstly the dutch primarily employ hot house production methods in their horticulture enterprises. This type of production requires huge amounts of energy, is heavily capital intensive and requires large amounts of artificial irrigation, pesticides and artificial fertilisers. And as such produce is often higly perishable - it is normally located in regions adjacent to transport hubs with rapid access to the rest of Europe. Growing your own in Ballybagle or wherever is not even close to this type of commercial production - so not comparable.

    As for food security - it sometimes takes others to see the value of our agriculture here. In 2017 Ireland was identified as the country best able to feed its people and the world’s most “food-secure” nation,

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

    way too many 'experts' who dont seem to have a clue about agriculture or growing conditions here - telling all and sundry what eveyone should be doing. And to those I say - put your money where your mouth is and start digging.

    Yes Dutch farmers do a lot of things Irish farmers don`t do. Their methods require hothouses, irrigation etc as you say and my reply is so what? Are Irish farmers not homosapiens also or something more akin to the great white balding North American ape (Homer Simpson)? As for Dutch farming being located near large export hubs, Irish farmers need not worry about that for a while because most of them are not even self sufficient.


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    #40
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,120 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Yes Dutch farmers do a lot of things Irish farmers don`t do. Their methods require hothouses, irrigation etc as you say and my reply is so what? Are Irish farmers not homosapiens also or something more akin to the great white balding North American ape (Homer Simpson)? As for Dutch farming being located near large export hubs, Irish farmers need not worry about that for a while because most of them are not even self sufficient.

    The problem is the supermarkets in this country.
    There's zero morality only pure economics.

    A case in point. The house here shops in a German retailer from time to time and buys blueberries. The blueberries are branded with the same brand but this last while there's been no consistency from where they come from. They've come from Poland, Zimbabwe and Chile.
    What would it take for an irish farmer to compete with Zimbabwe in blueberry production realitykeeper?


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    #41
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    It would look unrecognisable. Hawthorns cut down, fairy forts mowed down and hedgerows levelled. Habitats for wildlife gone and replaced with forestry.


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    #42
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Say my name wrote: »
    The problem is the supermarkets in this country.
    There's zero morality only pure economics.

    A case in point. The house here shops in a German retailer from time to time and buys blueberries. The blueberries are branded with the same brand but this last while there's been no consistency from where they come from. They've come from Poland, Zimbabwe and Chile.
    What would it take for an irish farmer to compete with Zimbabwe in blueberry production realitykeeper?

    It can be done, has been done, only problem was when it came time to harvest the supermarket that had looked for the supply decided that they didn't want the blueberries. They ended up in cold storage at significant cost to the producer while they figured out an alternative outlet for the product. Producer in question supplies the bigger chains with other soft fruit under the producers own brand so they know what they are doing. Still got screwed.


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    #43
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Say my name wrote: »
    What would it take for an irish farmer to compete with Zimbabwe in blueberry production realitykeeper?

    The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.


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    #44
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.

    See above. And maybe stop typing the first thing that comes to mind.


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    #45
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,199 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.

    BS you have been on about the abolition of the minimum wage on other forums. Yours is a basket case economics. First off Blueberries are not a staple food that are required by the masses. They are more in the health food rage. Food security requires that any country can feed itself not that someone always has access to every food type.

    In Ireland we can provide an adequate varied food supply for everyone. Even during the great famine it effect would have been way less except for the export of wheat, barley, beef pork and mutton. If in Ireland we could import no food nobody would stave or even go a little hungry because of it. Ya people might not have access to Quorn, Corn on the cob or Avacoda but would still have enough food to feed a country of 3-4 times the population.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #46
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    But there won't be no beef farmers... There might be less of them, or many of them will farm less animals... Suckler farmers probably are screwed alright though...
    If beef farming is classed as a form of "rural social welfare" (keeping communities alive), would we be better off targeting the money differently?
    And if its decided that forestry is to be the answer to all problems, there should be more options for farmers, so they don't have to put in sitka spruce monocrops, and if a farmer puts sections of his land into permanent native forestry, it can be done sympathetically and with an ongoing payment..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #47
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Yes Dutch farmers do a lot of things Irish farmers don`t do. Their methods require hothouses, irrigation etc as you say and my reply is so what? Are Irish farmers not homosapiens also or something more akin to the great white balding North American ape (Homer Simpson)? As for Dutch farming being located near large export hubs, Irish farmers need not worry about that for a while because most of them are not even self sufficient.

    Jeez yet another with a horn for 'Irish' farmers. Nothing like another bit of old farming bashing eh? I'd say the only ones saying others are 'Apes / homer Simpson' bear more similarity to that description themselves than anyone else.

    You complain farmers here are not 'self sufficient' yet inexplicably laud others who depend on vast amounts of subsidised energy and a huge range of artificial inputs to grow horticultural produce. Considering the current zero carbon emission push - hardly a sustainable model is it.

    The point about location for horticultural produce is the critical point. Stuck on an Island on the western seaboard of Europe? Well tough luck.

    Yeah and funnily enough Holland also has huge dairy and beef sectors

    I'd suggest you take your shovel and drop it into the big hole youve been digging for yourself before you fall in head first.


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    #48
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    If in Ireland we could import no food nobody would stave or even go a little hungry because of it. Ya people might not have access to Quorn, Corn on the cob or Avacoda but would still have enough food to feed a country of 3-4 times the population.

    If Ireland could not import food, there is a strong chance we could not import petroleum products for the same reason. Given that nearly half the population live in or near Dublin as opposed to renting small plots (as the vast majority did in famine times), I would say we as a nation are very vulnerable.


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    #49
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    gozunda wrote: »
    Jeez yet another with a horn for 'Irish' farmers. Nothing like another bit of old farming bashing eh? I'd say the only ones saying others are 'Apes / homer Simpson' bear more similarity to that description themselves than anyone else.

    You complain farmers here are not 'self sufficient' yet inexplicably laud others who depend on vast amounts of subsidised energy and a huge range of artificial inputs to grow horticultural produce. Considering the current zero carbon emission push - hardly a sustainable model is it.

    The point about location for horticultural produce is the critical point. Stuck on an Island on the western seaboard of Europe? Well tough luck.

    Yeah and funnily enough Holland also has huge dairy and beef sectors

    I'd suggest you take your shovel and drop it into the big hole youve been digging for yourself before you fall in head first.

    They have a big population and as I say, they are self sufficient. As for being on an island, again I make the point that Ireland imports a lot of horticultural products it could produce itself. If we can import these things we could export them with the right farmers so again I suggest the government advertise Irish land to Dutch farmers and encourage Irish farmers to emigrate and don`t come back.


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    #50
    einn32
    Registered Users Posts: 983 ✭✭✭einn32


    There would be no one to chat with for me! I work on my own for long stretches and occasionally meet neighbouring beef farmers for a chat on the road. I guess we would see more dairy cows instead.


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    #51
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    They have a big population and as I say, they are self sufficient. As for being on an island, again I make the point that Ireland imports a lot of horticultural products it could produce itself. If we can import these things we could export them with the right farmers so again I suggest the government advertise Irish land to Dutch farmers and encourage Irish farmers to emigrate and don`t come back.

    Like Ireland - Holland exports much of its agricultural produce. One major difference however (and something many people dont realise) is that Holland is also a major buyer and reseller of cheaper horticultural produce which they import from Africa and South America. With over seventy percent of imported fruit and eighty percent of imported flowers and vegetables being re-exported.

    You talk of self sufficiency - That's the thing. Afaik we are near fully self sufficient in a decent range of agricultural products including beef, sheep meat, butter, potatoes etc.

    And again - the point you are missing is Hollands strategic location and access to major European transport hubs as one of the main reasons why their horticultural sector is so large. Holland has five designated "greenports"
    Greenport is the term used in the Netherlands for a major horticultural geographic area in which horticultural products are grown and traded. ... It is based on the idea of a port or transportation hub and each of the greenports have a connection with a major transportation hub.

    And maybe you are ignoring that reland has been highlighted as the most food secure nation
    - perhaps if Holland is so wonderful some others might like to live there and as you suggest "dont come back" no? Looks lovely ...

    greenhouses.jpg


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    #52
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,699 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    To ensure everyone is fed, there will always have to be an oversupply of food. Simple laws of economics dictate that this will also mean low food prices, at least at farmgate anyway. Our problem in Ireland is we export so much beef, so we are always looking for that beef deficit worldwide to sell into. In a way we are victims of our own success. The more we increase output and effeciency, the lower prices will be.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #53
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,303 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.

    This is insane stuff, no disrespect intended.


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    #54
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,120 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Danzy wrote: »
    This is insane stuff, no disrespect intended.

    I think he's trying to hark back to Roman agriculture or even Italian agriculture today run by mafia bosses with illegal migrant labour on minimal pay and living in tin hut camps.
    Roman agriculture was run by landlords with slaves doing the labour. Slaves that were the result of the Roman war machine invading new territory. The big estates with the slave labour were needed to provide cheap food to the urban masses to pacify and prevent revolts.
    The expansionist campaigns were needed to provide war booty to fund the armies and again to pacify to provide dole to the urban residents and to build the urban infrastructure.

    Oh but wait maybe I've messed that up and he's not on about that as he mentioned that no one would earn above 30k? That's the Roman theory out with the landlords and their lavish villas and if today would clearly be earning above 30k.
    So that leaves communism.
    I'd be all for getting the dole earning urbanites back on the land. Great idea!

    Except it's not and didn't work in any of the countries that implemented communism. The land suffered, the food was poor and the stasi disappeared people.

    The current situation of European grants based on scale enables the big to get bigger. Then the bigger have to supply a commodity market which ensures a low
    food price. The specialist bigger farmer has no time to retail to the consumer as above, supplying a specialist secondary producer who ensures the primary producer produces a quality product through fines and cuts on the product.
    The downside to the above with the big farmer getting bigger is the need for labour and the push for greater efficiencies from the secondary producer paying a lower price and grading on quality means labour is needed at the cheapest rates. Answer .... ask a Roman?
    Or maybe outsource the whole job to foreign countries.


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    #55
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,779 ✭✭✭amacca


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    In a way we are victims of our own success. The more we increase output and effeciency, the lower prices will be.

    hmm food harvest 2020

    We are victims of listening to vested interests/sleeveens and state quangos imo

    if we didn't ceed control of our businesses to parasites we would be in a much better position.


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    #56
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    amacca wrote: »
    hmm food harvest 2020

    We are victims of listening to vested interests/sleeveens and state quangos imo

    if we didn't ceed control of our businesses to parasites we would be in a much better position.

    Hhhhmmmm, yes and no, I suppose farmers were encouraged to go down the suckle cow route.
    And various payments grants and quotas have seriously scewed the whole farming business,
    but agribusiness is always going to have the ear of government and big farm organisations are going to represent their more active, wealthier members too,
    Ultimately ABP ect. dont really care where their profit comes from, as long as they get
    A return on investment..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #57
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Once beef farmers are gone Fine gaels vision is for the land to be used for wind farms to generate power for Dublin the only place Fine Gael care about !


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    #58
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Once beef farmers are gone Fine gaels vision is for the land to be used for wind farms to generate power for Dublin the only place Fine Gael care about !

    Yawn,
    Since fine Gael Are the party of big business--what are the beef factories gonna do without beef cattle?
    What do you think fine Gael want All the dairy farmers to do with their bull calves,
    Wind turbines don't take up much space...

    (or you could say that fine Gael'd be worried about not having any beef for their core city constituency)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #59
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    gozunda wrote: »
    Like Ireland - Holland exports much of its agricultural produce. One major difference however (and something many people dont realise) is that Holland is also a major buyer and reseller of cheaper horticultural produce which they import from Africa and South America. With over seventy percent of imported fruit and eighty percent of imported flowers and vegetables being re-exported.

    You talk of self sufficiency - That's the thing. Afaik we are near fully self sufficient in a decent range of agricultural products including beef, sheep meat, butter, potatoes etc.

    And again - the point you are missing is Hollands strategic location and access to major European transport hubs as one of the main reasons why their horticultural sector is so large. Holland has five designated "greenports"



    And maybe you are ignoring that reland has been highlighted as the most food secure nation
    - perhaps if Holland is so wonderful some others might like to live there and as you suggest "dont come back" no? Looks lovely ...

    greenhouses.jpg

    These are separate issues that do not change the basic premise. The Netherlands can feed 500 million. Certainly it makes more sense to import certain products from large farms in Kenya than to grow them in a greenhouse in Holland but again that is a red herring. I did not suggest the Netherlands grow everything that can be grown. I recommend you be more humble, after all, an untalented artist should refrain from criticizing the works of Rembrandt as his time would be better spent improving himself.


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    #60
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    These are separate issues that do not change the basic premise. The Netherlands can feed 500 million. Certainly it makes more sense to import certain products from large farms in Kenya than to grow them in a greenhouse in Holland but again that is a red herring. I did not suggest the Netherlands grow everything that can be grown. I recommend you be more humble, after all, an untalented artist should refrain from criticizing the works of Rembrandt as his time would be better spent improving himself.

    Lol. I would recommend you refrain from trying to make daft personal asides and stick with the topic. Or simply stop lecturing on a topic you clearly know little to nothing about.


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