What would rural Ireland look like without beef farmers ?

Bullocks

Lets just say for one reason or the other that beef farming ended . How would your area change ?
I know around here most are weanling producers and regardless of them paying their own way something is certainly paying for them whether its from BPS or off farm income .
Sheds get built every year keeping local builders in a bit of work 
Machinery and tractors are constantly getting bought or fixed 
Contractors do alright from drainage , silage or slurry 
Vets get a twist every year from testing and call outs 
Accountants get a bit of work , even the part timers have to make a return 
Keeps young people interested in the outdoors aswell  which I think is lacking in them these days . 
In fairness we have rough land around me and the ould suckler for all her faults is stopping it getting rougher . Any place that isn't getting ate declines into scrub very quick and thats a shame to see .
Sheep could be swapped for sucklers but they wont work for everyone or every place . Dogs are a major threat around me . Plus too many lambs extra will see their prices plummet .
What do ye see changing in yer areas and have ye any alternatives floating around if beef was no longer an option ?

aphextwit

Black & white as far as the eye can see.

Bullocks

I forgot to mention the social aspect especially for elderly farmers in the country. Beside me is Maamcross mart, its usually mobbed with people that would have nowhere else to go to meet up only for it.
Then of course it's priceless for the older generation to be able to potter around keeping active minding a few stock in areas that aren't populated enough to provide services for them

Bullocks

aphextwit wrote: »

Black & white as far as the eye can see.

I like the fr's and nothing wrong with them. But I'm not sure there will be anymore profit in them on bad land where a lot of feed will have to be bought in to finish. Selling them as stores will be a bad job too I think

CloughCasey1

aphextwit wrote: »

Black & white as far as the eye can see.

And further west a mix of brown thrauneen and yellow ragworth as far as the eye can see.

Albert Johnson

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

aphextwit wrote: »

Black & white as far as the eye can see.

And further west a mix of brown thrauneen and yellow ragworth as far as the eye can see.

In between the oceans of monoculture forestry or as a local character refers to it as "the bucking pine". If the bit of farming goes then I suppose they'll be no one left to witness it when they finally turn out the light on the west of Ireland. Outside of the "gateways" to the west it seems to me that the powers that be are intent on picking up where Cromwell left off.

Western Pomise

The Star System has already led to a decline in the quality of beef weanlings being produced.....reality is Friesian cattle could not be reared on marginal land to leave any feasible return.
As Bullocks has said Beef farming plays a vital role in a lot of areas in Ireland offering employment linked to it.
The country will be the poorer for it if many people give it up.

K.G.

Things will change.in our area in the 50s there was over 70 dairy farmers
Now theres 2.things change they always do and you just got to change with it

390kid

Not be too black and white up this country more a steady shade a dark green maybe a odd wooly lad with those that il stick with them

_Brian

Bullocks wrote: »

Lets just say for one reason or the other that beef farming ended . How would your area change ?
I know around here most are weanling producers and regardless of them paying their own way something is certainly paying for them whether its from BPS or off farm income .
Sheds get built every year keeping local builders in a bit of work 
Machinery and tractors are constantly getting bought or fixed 
Contractors do alright from drainage , silage or slurry 
Vets get a twist every year from testing and call outs 
Accountants get a bit of work , even the part timers have to make a return 
Keeps young people interested in the outdoors aswell  which I think is lacking in them these days . 
In fairness we have rough land around me and the ould suckler for all her faults is stopping it getting rougher . Any place that isn't getting ate declines into scrub very quick and thats a shame to see .
Sheep could be swapped for sucklers but they wont work for everyone or every place . Dogs are a major threat around me . Plus too many lambs extra will see their prices plummet .
What do ye see changing in yer areas and have ye any alternatives floating around if beef was no longer an option ?

Depends on how you define ended ??

As in not profitable any more ?, maybe slightly less stock around but between pensions and direct payments my 5 elderly bachelor neighbors wouldn’t change much.

If beef was somehow impossible or banned then forestry would take over quickly, very quickly.

Bullocks

_Brian wrote: »

Bullocks wrote: »

Lets just say for one reason or the other that beef farming ended . How would your area change ?
I know around here most are weanling producers and regardless of them paying their own way something is certainly paying for them whether its from BPS or off farm income .
Sheds get built every year keeping local builders in a bit of work 
Machinery and tractors are constantly getting bought or fixed 
Contractors do alright from drainage , silage or slurry 
Vets get a twist every year from testing and call outs 
Accountants get a bit of work , even the part timers have to make a return 
Keeps young people interested in the outdoors aswell  which I think is lacking in them these days . 
In fairness we have rough land around me and the ould suckler for all her faults is stopping it getting rougher . Any place that isn't getting ate declines into scrub very quick and thats a shame to see .
Sheep could be swapped for sucklers but they wont work for everyone or every place . Dogs are a major threat around me . Plus too many lambs extra will see their prices plummet .
What do ye see changing in yer areas and have ye any alternatives floating around if beef was no longer an option ?

Depends on how you define ended ??

As in not profitable any more ?, maybe slightly less stock around but between pensions and direct payments my 5 elderly bachelor neighbors wouldn’t change much.

If beef was somehow impossible or banned then forestry would take over quickly, very quickly.

I think by ended I mean a few factories closing down , Brexit halting the movement of beef or making it too expensive to ship and maybe quota coming in to just supply what we need domestically  .

Bass Reeves

I think too many lads equate beef with sucklers. I have seen Friesians come off land in South Kerry and West Cork 30+ years ago. Lads even milked friesians cows. Too many forget that there was small dairy farmers in every parish before the suckler cow. With most extreme breeding gone out of HO cows in Ireland and more and more dairy farmers using midsized Fr cows the FR prodgney has improved over the last 3-4 years.

However not all calves coming from the dairy herd are FR's. We have virtually reached peak production in milk. From now on expansion will be hampered by nitrates and other limitations. The mix will be 60% beef calves(mostly AA and HE) to a max of 40%FR. It might even be higher as lads with cross bred cows or extreme HO will change to sexed semen.

It a fact that most of these suckler farm will not be able to finish cattle. However stores will be half the weight of suckler cows and that is at sale. Is it possible to produce a 400-450kg store at 18-21 months, even on really heavy land it should be possible to produce a 380kg store at that age. these really heavy farms should sell there stores at 16-18 months( around late July August) and keep there autumn grass for there calves. Weanling are easy kept for the winter goodish silage and 1-2 kgs of ration turns a 220-280kg weanling into a 280-340 kg yearling at turnout. After that squeeze them and grass them but sell them as your grass starts to decline in late August/September. A 50 euro Fr calf will make a 650+ euro store most years doing that. You will stock at 2/suckler cow. HE and AA calves may convert better but the calves are more expensive and are a later calf so you will not get the same first summer growth. You will have a lighter weanling and therefore a lighter yearling below 300kgs at turnout. But still capable of hitting the 400kgs at September. But it all about grass and dosing. Most lads failure with calves is not dosing often enough

For lads on slightly better land finish AA and HE cattle especially heifers is an option.

realitykeeper

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

wrangler

realitykeeper wrote: »

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

You won't have national food security for the prices offered for products at the moment

realitykeeper

wrangler wrote: »

You won't have national food security for the prices offered for products at the moment

The idea of food security is a bit like holding a small amount of gold. It is a fail-safe mechanism which can (if done properly) become more than that.

The Dutch suffered famine during WWII and so after the war they looked at what needed to be done to increase food production. They knew that people consume lots of things and not just beef and dairy so they also grew veg. It is impressive that such a small country below sea level can feed 500 million people and still produce an enormous amount of not food farm produce e.g. tulip bulbs.

There is a lot to be said for making an effort.

lalababa

RE the OP question: if no beef farming?
Then an upsurge in forestry/sheep & dairy. Also alot of older small holding farmers will exit. Some small holdings will be left go wild. Some will be bought or rented. Population will decrease and age increase.
So basically what's already happening but accelerated. Land prices will decrease esp. for small marginal holdings. (No bad thing-agri land price in Ireland is stupid high)
Also with depopulation services will become more dispersed.

Grueller

realitykeeper wrote: »

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

What rubbish. We feed half of the UK as well as ourselves.

Bullocks

wrangler wrote: »

realitykeeper wrote: »

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

You won't have national food security for the prices offered for products at the moment

That's true , it's hard to produce food to our standards and sell at world prices

El Tarangu

wrangler wrote: »

You won't have national food security for the prices offered for products at the moment

I'm a bit doubtful about this particular argument; I don't know if we have food security at the moment, if all the grain used in our bread is imported.

blue5000

El Tarangu wrote: »

I'm a bit doubtful about this particular argument; I don't know if we have food security at the moment, if all the grain used in our bread is imported.

Our wheat will make bread, it's just that harder imported wheats make more loaves for a given volume of wheat. If push came to shove we would still have bread from Irish wheat, but it will be more expensive.

To answer OP's question, there will be a bit more forestry, but there won't be a lot more. Some counties can't plant much more between ANC, hen harriers, choughs and pearl mussels. In better parts of the country there will be a lot more cows milked, and as Bass says lots of dairy calves to rear. Sheep could see a big increase too if Welsh lamb gets knocked out of Europe.

older by the day

I have to laugh, at our dairy discussion group, one guy is constantly on about land abandonment, he has recently paid 8k an acre for reclaimed bog. If anyone knows of land being abandoned let me know, I'm stick it in my SFP.

El Tarangu

blue5000 wrote: »

Our wheat will make bread, it's just that harder imported wheats make more loaves for a given volume of wheat. If push came to shove we would still have bread from Irish wheat, but it will be more expensive.

How would we bake it, if we couldn't import any oil and gas to generate electricity?

My point is, that Ireland is such an open and interconnected economy, if any global catastrophe happened, we'd be fooked altogether. We are completely reliant on trade for essentially all of our energy needs, lots of our food, medicines, etc. It strikes me as a strange argument to continue supporting beef production that if the sh*t did hit the fan, "oh well, at least we will have plenty of beef".

BIGT4464

Probably be full of sheep. That's a growing market

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I support beef farmers getting a fair price for their produce, but would also like to see Ireland have more forestry and woodland. Having more woodlands has the added benefit of tourism as well.

I also think there is an ever growing market for locally grown food. More and more people are willing to pay a premium if their carrots are grown up the road.
What we do produce could also be marketed a bit better, like Connemara Lamb, people do buy into a 'story'. West Cork Pastrami or Golden Vale Beef Brisket would be solid 'brands'.

The Dutch have utilised their land usage better than any other country with regard to food produce, while also growing their wildlife and wilderness.

_Brian

older by the day wrote: »

I have to laugh, at our dairy discussion group, one guy is constantly on about land abandonment, he has recently paid 8k an acre for reclaimed bog. If anyone knows of land being abandoned let me know, I'm stick it in my SFP.

Three plots of land near me not farmed this year, not big but possibly start of a trend. Neighbor across on boundary has a 15/18 Ac plot that hasn’t been touched since last Aug/Sep, just growing rank.

blue5000

El Tarangu wrote: »

How would we bake it, if we couldn't import any oil and gas to generate electricity?

My point is, that Ireland is such an open and interconnected economy, if any global catastrophe happened, we'd be fooked altogether. We are completely reliant on trade for essentially all of our energy needs, lots of our food, medicines, etc. It strikes me as a strange argument to continue supporting beef production that if the sh*t did hit the fan, "oh well, at least we will have plenty of beef".

Do it on a windy day:cool: On a good windy day half our electricity can be from wind turbines.

FarmerBrowne

But if a fair chunk of beef farmers jump into sheep will the market not be flooded with sheep then and supply will outstrip demand and the prices will fall through the floor?

Bullocks

FarmerBrowne wrote: »

But if a fair chunk of beef farmers jump into sheep will the market not be flooded with sheep then and supply will outstrip demand and the prices will fall through the floor?

I'd reckon the price would be getting lower alright but we could get lucky if France stopped taking Welsh lamb after Brexit

yewtree

older by the day wrote: »

I have to laugh, at our dairy discussion group, one guy is constantly on about land abandonment, he has recently paid 8k an acre for reclaimed bog. If anyone knows of land being abandoned let me know, I'm stick it in my SFP.

Spot on, land is very valuable the idea that people will just throw it away is utter and complete rubbish. The intensity of agriculture is likely to decrease in parts more land in environmental schemes but you can be sure nobody will be walking away from the ownership of land

selectamatic

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The Dutch have utilised their land usage better than any other country with regard to food produce, while also growing their wildlife and wilderness.

They are however, investing massively in Brazilian agriculture so it's not all roses.

realitykeeper

Grueller wrote: »

What rubbish. We feed half of the UK as well as ourselves.

We feed them meat and dairy. Suppose you want to eat something else.

lalababa

older by the day wrote: »

I have to laugh, at our dairy discussion group, one guy is constantly on about land abandonment, he has recently paid 8k an acre for reclaimed bog. If anyone knows of land being abandoned let me know, I'm stick it in my SFP.

Plenty of small holdings gone wild down my way. Not quite sure what you mean by abandoned. These small holdings are not really being sold by inheritors too quickly for whatever reason.

390kid

realitykeeper wrote: »

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

I don’t know about I have 2 brothers along with meself that are very keen on following it up. So if you know of anyone in the north half of the country with a sizable place that has no one for it give us a shout

Danzy

realitykeeper wrote: »

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming.

My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

I was actually talking to a Dutch lad who farms near my place in Cork about your ideas.

He laughed hard.

SuperTortoise

I'd say we will all find out fairly shortly.

There are many problems in the sector, not helped one bit by successive governments turning a blind eye to rural Ireland, closing post offices, pubs, butchers, marts, garda stations, the only infastructure being built are the scraps and leftovers once city's and towns are taken care of, planning laws means it's almost impossible to build your own house on your own land they want everyone living in a town.
Most politicians don't give a damn, all they care about is trying to look trendy on social media and securing the vote for the next election(jobs for the boys if there ever was one!)

I watched TD's debate the "deal" put forward on Monday last on tv, of the 10 or so TD's i watched, only 1 linked the beef/suckler sector to the hundreds of thousands of jobs that the beef/suckler man props up in our "thriving" economy, they are clueless and useless.
I read a factoid somewhere just last week that the beef/suckler sector supports more jobs directly than the multinationals we have based here, the same multinationals that are given huge tax breaks to stay, if the multinationals thought about leaving tomorrow there would be public outcry, beef/suckler sector is threatened with being wiped out and not a peep, it took RTE almost a month to start to cover the protests.

Tin foil hat time!, i think it would suit the government if the beef/suckler sector were to fail and close down, land prices would plummit and anyone with a bit of land would be forced to plant it due to lack of alternative uses allowing the government to reach their carbon/emissions targets, seems to be a win/win situation for them allowing the beef/suckler sector to fail, cheap land means cheap compensation for the landowner to be the carbon offset.

Sad situation really we are being told to produce beef for the same price as eastern european or south americans countries yet we live in one of the most expensive countries in the world, it's impossible, can't be done.
But at this time it's very very hard to see a future for the beef/suckler sector and when that goes what's left of rural Ireland will go with it. Productive land will be used for dairy, everything else will be planted, people will live closer to where the jobs are in the city's.
I would love to be proven wrong, i like rural life, it's not always fine and rosy but right now i'd take it every day of the week above living in an urban setting.

gozunda

I hope the poster doesnt mind - but I came across this post over in the Irish Beef vs Mercosor Beef in CA / IMHO forum. Reckon its relevant here ...

eeeee wrote:

I think we really need to think about what makes land valuable - is it just productivity? Or is it natural beauty, culture, social history, archeological and environmental value etc. 

Saying we plant all marginal land is a huge, huge, huge mistake. There is so much local and social history bound up in land, so much culture. We have 20 acres we can't farm at home, it's full of native shrubs, bushes, trees etc. The biodiversity there is unreal. We have an awful lot of ditches and old pasture too, that once ripped up for forestry or reseeded is irreplaceable. Famine houses, full fiachras, a famine road, a few fairyforts (in fairness they're everywhere!) There is fcuk all of that kind of diversity in the golden vale.

The only reason we've been able to keep the history and biodiversity on our farm is beef farming. Lose that and you lose so, so much with it. 

I also see my father, who was born and reared on that land, and his father was a tenant on it before he got it off the land commission, knows where all the shores and drains are/should be, so when the council resurface the road he goes around telling them what to not block etc. When the don't listen roads flood, get torn up because of blocked shores etc.

Once you plant land there's no going back. Without significant investment in it its destroyed for any other use. 
I have absolutely no appetite for more monocultural sika spruce plantations. 

Land is more than just a carbon sink, and needs to be understood for what it is in its entirety.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111293663&postcount=70

gozunda

realitykeeper wrote: »

The older farmers are dying out and the young are not that keen on taking up farming. My suggestion is the Irish government should advertise this unwanted land in the Netherlands in the hope Dutch farmers will buy it and find ways of making it productive. It is sad and ironic that after hundreds of years of dispossession and foreign rule, we discover we are neither capable of governing ourselves (as evidenced by the national debt) or farming our own land in an intelligent way. I have come to terms with these facts which is why I now grow a lot of my own food. We as a nation cannot rely on our farmers for food security.

You ideas seem to come from some fluffy cloud level at best.

Firstly the dutch primarily employ hot house production methods in their horticulture enterprises. This type of production requires huge amounts of energy, is heavily capital intensive and requires large amounts of artificial irrigation, pesticides and artificial fertilisers. And as such produce is often higly perishable - it is normally located in regions adjacent to transport hubs with rapid access to the rest of Europe. Growing your own in Ballybagle or wherever is not even close to this type of commercial production - so not comparable.

As for food security - it sometimes takes others to see the value of our agriculture here. In 2017 Ireland was identified as the country best able to feed its people and the world’s most “food-secure” nation,

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

way too many 'experts' who dont seem to have a clue about agriculture or growing conditions here - telling all and sundry what eveyone should be doing. And to those I say - put your money where your mouth is and start digging.

realitykeeper

Danzy wrote: »

I was actually talking to a Dutch lad who farms near my place in Cork about your ideas.

He laughed hard.

He could hardly have done otherwise, given that he was talking to an Irish farmer.

realitykeeper

gozunda wrote: »

You ideas seem to come from some fluffy cloud level at best.

Firstly the dutch primarily employ hot house production methods in their horticulture enterprises. This type of production requires huge amounts of energy, is heavily capital intensive and requires large amounts of artificial irrigation, pesticides and artificial fertilisers. And as such produce is often higly perishable - it is normally located in regions adjacent to transport hubs with rapid access to the rest of Europe. Growing your own in Ballybagle or wherever is not even close to this type of commercial production - so not comparable.

As for food security - it sometimes takes others to see the value of our agriculture here. In 2017 Ireland was identified as the country best able to feed its people and the world’s most “food-secure” nation,

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

way too many 'experts' who dont seem to have a clue about agriculture or growing conditions here - telling all and sundry what eveyone should be doing. And to those I say - put your money where your mouth is and start digging.

Yes Dutch farmers do a lot of things Irish farmers don`t do. Their methods require hothouses, irrigation etc as you say and my reply is so what? Are Irish farmers not homosapiens also or something more akin to the great white balding North American ape (Homer Simpson)? As for Dutch farming being located near large export hubs, Irish farmers need not worry about that for a while because most of them are not even self sufficient.

Say my name

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes Dutch farmers do a lot of things Irish farmers don`t do. Their methods require hothouses, irrigation etc as you say and my reply is so what? Are Irish farmers not homosapiens also or something more akin to the great white balding North American ape (Homer Simpson)? As for Dutch farming being located near large export hubs, Irish farmers need not worry about that for a while because most of them are not even self sufficient.

The problem is the supermarkets in this country.
There's zero morality only pure economics.

A case in point. The house here shops in a German retailer from time to time and buys blueberries. The blueberries are branded with the same brand but this last while there's been no consistency from where they come from. They've come from Poland, Zimbabwe and Chile.
What would it take for an irish farmer to compete with Zimbabwe in blueberry production realitykeeper?

Ruraldweller56

It would look unrecognisable. Hawthorns cut down, fairy forts mowed down and hedgerows levelled. Habitats for wildlife gone and replaced with forestry.

freedominacup

Say my name wrote: »

The problem is the supermarkets in this country.
There's zero morality only pure economics.

A case in point. The house here shops in a German retailer from time to time and buys blueberries. The blueberries are branded with the same brand but this last while there's been no consistency from where they come from. They've come from Poland, Zimbabwe and Chile.
What would it take for an irish farmer to compete with Zimbabwe in blueberry production realitykeeper?

It can be done, has been done, only problem was when it came time to harvest the supermarket that had looked for the supply decided that they didn't want the blueberries. They ended up in cold storage at significant cost to the producer while they figured out an alternative outlet for the product. Producer in question supplies the bigger chains with other soft fruit under the producers own brand so they know what they are doing. Still got screwed.

realitykeeper

Say my name wrote: »

What would it take for an irish farmer to compete with Zimbabwe in blueberry production realitykeeper?

The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.

freedominacup

realitykeeper wrote: »

The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.

See above. And maybe stop typing the first thing that comes to mind.

Bass Reeves

realitykeeper wrote: »

The idea behind achieving food security is that should the importation of blueberries for example, stop for some reason, Ireland would have enough for it`s own population. But to answer you question, it would take the abolition of the minimum wage and to facilitate this, an income cap would also be needed and this would have to be set quite low, eg 30,000 euro per year.

BS you have been on about the abolition of the minimum wage on other forums. Yours is a basket case economics. First off Blueberries are not a staple food that are required by the masses. They are more in the health food rage. Food security requires that any country can feed itself not that someone always has access to every food type.

In Ireland we can provide an adequate varied food supply for everyone. Even during the great famine it effect would have been way less except for the export of wheat, barley, beef pork and mutton. If in Ireland we could import no food nobody would stave or even go a little hungry because of it. Ya people might not have access to Quorn, Corn on the cob or Avacoda but would still have enough food to feed a country of 3-4 times the population.

Markcheese

But there won't be no beef farmers... There might be less of them, or many of them will farm less animals... Suckler farmers probably are screwed alright though...
If beef farming is classed as a form of "rural social welfare" (keeping communities alive), would we be better off targeting the money differently?
And if its decided that forestry is to be the answer to all problems, there should be more options for farmers, so they don't have to put in sitka spruce monocrops, and if a farmer puts sections of his land into permanent native forestry, it can be done sympathetically and with an ongoing payment..

gozunda

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes Dutch farmers do a lot of things Irish farmers don`t do. Their methods require hothouses, irrigation etc as you say and my reply is so what? Are Irish farmers not homosapiens also or something more akin to the great white balding North American ape (Homer Simpson)? As for Dutch farming being located near large export hubs, Irish farmers need not worry about that for a while because most of them are not even self sufficient.

Jeez yet another with a horn for 'Irish' farmers. Nothing like another bit of old farming bashing eh? I'd say the only ones saying others are 'Apes / homer Simpson' bear more similarity to that description themselves than anyone else.

You complain farmers here are not 'self sufficient' yet inexplicably laud others who depend on vast amounts of subsidised energy and a huge range of artificial inputs to grow horticultural produce. Considering the current zero carbon emission push - hardly a sustainable model is it.

The point about location for horticultural produce is the critical point. Stuck on an Island on the western seaboard of Europe? Well tough luck.

Yeah and funnily enough Holland also has huge dairy and beef sectors

I'd suggest you take your shovel and drop it into the big hole youve been digging for yourself before you fall in head first.

realitykeeper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If in Ireland we could import no food nobody would stave or even go a little hungry because of it. Ya people might not have access to Quorn, Corn on the cob or Avacoda but would still have enough food to feed a country of 3-4 times the population.

If Ireland could not import food, there is a strong chance we could not import petroleum products for the same reason. Given that nearly half the population live in or near Dublin as opposed to renting small plots (as the vast majority did in famine times), I would say we as a nation are very vulnerable.

realitykeeper

gozunda wrote: »

Jeez yet another with a horn for 'Irish' farmers. Nothing like another bit of old farming bashing eh? I'd say the only ones saying others are 'Apes / homer Simpson' bear more similarity to that description themselves than anyone else.

You complain farmers here are not 'self sufficient' yet inexplicably laud others who depend on vast amounts of subsidised energy and a huge range of artificial inputs to grow horticultural produce. Considering the current zero carbon emission push - hardly a sustainable model is it.

The point about location for horticultural produce is the critical point. Stuck on an Island on the western seaboard of Europe? Well tough luck.

Yeah and funnily enough Holland also has huge dairy and beef sectors

I'd suggest you take your shovel and drop it into the big hole youve been digging for yourself before you fall in head first.

They have a big population and as I say, they are self sufficient. As for being on an island, again I make the point that Ireland imports a lot of horticultural products it could produce itself. If we can import these things we could export them with the right farmers so again I suggest the government advertise Irish land to Dutch farmers and encourage Irish farmers to emigrate and don`t come back.

einn32

There would be no one to chat with for me! I work on my own for long stretches and occasionally meet neighbouring beef farmers for a chat on the road. I guess we would see more dairy cows instead.

gozunda

realitykeeper wrote: »

They have a big population and as I say, they are self sufficient. As for being on an island, again I make the point that Ireland imports a lot of horticultural products it could produce itself. If we can import these things we could export them with the right farmers so again I suggest the government advertise Irish land to Dutch farmers and encourage Irish farmers to emigrate and don`t come back.

Like Ireland - Holland exports much of its agricultural produce. One major difference however (and something many people dont realise) is that Holland is also a major buyer and reseller of cheaper horticultural produce which they import from Africa and South America. With over seventy percent of imported fruit and eighty percent of imported flowers and vegetables being re-exported.

You talk of self sufficiency - That's the thing. Afaik we are near fully self sufficient in a decent range of agricultural products including beef, sheep meat, butter, potatoes etc.

And again - the point you are missing is Hollands strategic location and access to major European transport hubs as one of the main reasons why their horticultural sector is so large. Holland has five designated "greenports"

Greenport is the term used in the Netherlands for a major horticultural geographic area in which horticultural products are grown and traded. ... It is based on the idea of a port or transportation hub and each of the greenports have a connection with a major transportation hub.

And maybe you are ignoring that reland has been highlighted as the most food secure nation
- perhaps if Holland is so wonderful some others might like to live there and as you suggest "dont come back" no? Looks lovely ...