ASTI threaten strike action

political analyst · 08-02-2020 6:13pm

acequion wrote: »

Closer to home and also probably one for its own thread, but I wonder what will happen today? Will the country boot out the Blueshirts and will the new Govt be more amenable to pay equality?

And are we stuck forever more with massively deteriorated conditions? Poor sick leave? The hated CP hours to follow us til death do we part? Or early retirement as is the case for many, even though they can't really afford it.

I was amazed that not one of the wannabes came to my door, though my letter box has been filled with junk. Am giving my first pref to FF. I did PBP last time out but this time I've decided to vote for an actual Govt and traditionally FF, though not much better and in ways worse than FG, are the lesser of the two evils for public servants.

I wonder would Irish teachers who have emigrated to Australia and are struggling to cope with the heat see it that way.

one world order · 08-02-2020 6:19pm

For what is effectively a part time job, teachers at entry level are paid far too much. Anyone else with a college degree going into a professional services job like accounting, law etc start off on around 27k and have to give another 4 years training and studying to become qualified.

acequion · 08-02-2020 7:27pm

political analyst wrote: »

I wonder would Irish teachers who have emigrated to Australia and are struggling to cope with the heat see it that way.

Yes I think they would. Are you completely unaware of the recruitment and retention crisis is some subjects and some areas? And has it ever occured to you to wonder why?

one world order wrote: »

For what is effectively a part time job, teachers at entry level are paid far too much. Anyone else with a college degree going into a professional services job like accounting, law etc start off on around 27k and have to give another 4 years training and studying to become qualified.

That has to be the funniest thing I've heard in ages. :pac::pac::D:D

one world order · 08-02-2020 7:48pm

acequion wrote: »

Yes I think they would. Are you completely unaware of the recruitment and retention crisis is some subjects and some areas? And has it ever occured to you to wonder why?

That has to be the funniest thing I've heard in ages. :pac::pac::D:D

But very true.

greenttc · 08-02-2020 7:50pm

acequion wrote: »

That has to be the funniest thing I've heard in ages. :pac::pac::D:D

Don't feed the troll!

Treppen · 09-02-2020 9:08am

one world order wrote: »

But very true.

Says who?

RealJohn · 09-02-2020 2:38pm

one world order wrote: »

For what is effectively a part time job, teachers at entry level are paid far too much. Anyone else with a college degree going into a professional services job like accounting, law etc start off on around 27k and have to give another 4 years training and studying to become qualified.

You’re not wrong, except that you haven’t been clear that that part-time job comes with part-time pay. Half a teaching contract, which is probably best case scenario for newly qualified secondary teachers, is 13.5k for still having to be on site for the whole working week from 9 until 4, so any other part time work you engage in (which is completely necessary if you’re living in or near any of the cities, and are not living with your own parents) can still only be undertaken in the evenings and at weekends.
I presume that’s what you meant, right?
Very few people are stupid enough to think that NQTs actually wind up on 27k straight out of college, except for a very lucky few. Not to mention that NQTs now have to have a masters degree, not just a degree, unlike most other professions. And that’s before you account for the fact that an accountant, say, who gets an extra qualification can expect an immediate, significant jump in salary, whereas a teacher can get all the qualifications in the world but the only pay increase they’re getting is their increment, and they’re getting it based on full years teaching, so that teacher on half hours can expect their increment at the end of year 2.
That’s what you meant, right?

acequion · 09-02-2020 5:54pm

Why bother justifying our existence? No body in any other job has to,not even other public servants.

We're an easy target for a cheap shot from any idiot out there simply because every one of them, bar a tiny few, will have been to school at some stage.

No point being dragged down to the level of the ignorant, which is what happens when we engage with them.

solerina · 06-03-2020 5:45pm

We have a meeting scheduled for next Wednesday to discuss the vote on pay equality, I know from informal discussions in the staff room that the general vibe is along the lines of..we have been on strike a few times now for pay equality while the new teachers on staff have had a day off to go shopping( which they did and we heard all about it) so no more. The union rep is saying that the scales are now compatible anyway so is pushing for a no vote...people are generally in agreement....the gang of newer teachers who have joined the staff in the last few year are all still not in the union.....so if they won’t fight for themselves why should we lose more money, increments etc for them is definitely the vibe.

Treppen · 06-03-2020 7:18pm

solerina wrote: »

We have a meeting scheduled for next Wednesday to discuss the vote on pay equality, I know from informal discussions in the staff room that the general vibe is along the lines of..we have been on strike a few times now for pay equality while the new teachers on staff have had a day off to go shopping( which they did and we heard all about it) so no more. The union rep is saying that the scales are now compatible anyway so is pushing for a no vote...people are generally in agreement....the gang of newer teachers who have joined the staff in the last few year are all still not in the union.....so if they won’t fight for themselves why should we lose more money, increments etc for them is definitely the vibe.

I suppose all politics is local. But if it makes any difference to how you vote, in our school this week the 'young table' was approached by rep with sign up form for one teacher who asked for it, a bit of banter, gentle persuasion and reminding what their senior colleagues are balloting over, and 3 more requests for forms came out of it.

At this stage I just strike as it's in the ASTI DNA and we're used to it.
Any attack on one cohort is an attack on the whole group.

Sir123 · 08-03-2020 6:04pm

solerina wrote: »

We have a meeting scheduled for next Wednesday to discuss the vote on pay equality, I know from informal discussions in the staff room that the general vibe is along the lines of..we have been on strike a few times now for pay equality while the new teachers on staff have had a day off to go shopping( which they did and we heard all about it) so no more. The union rep is saying that the scales are now compatible anyway so is pushing for a no vote...people are generally in agreement....the gang of newer teachers who have joined the staff in the last few year are all still not in the union.....so if they won’t fight for themselves why should we lose more money, increments etc for them is definitely the vibe.

Your union rep is wrong. There are still great differences in post/pre 2011 teacher pay, particularly in the early years of a teacher’s career. Examples of the continued pay injustice can been seen in the latest ASTI nuacht.

Ok we’ve been out before but remember, this mandate for strike is in conjunction with one or both of the other Teacher unions so in my eyes it’s a no brainer to vote Yes.

As Treppen has highlighted, an attack on one cohort is an attack on the whole group and they are exactly right.

I urge all teachers who may be reading, but not commenting, to familiarise themselves with the latest nuacht and to realise that we wouldn’t be going out on our own if we were to actually ever go on strike.

A Yes vote will however strengthen the ASTI’s hand in future pay negotiations so I urge all to vote Yes.

acequion · 09-03-2020 5:50pm

We had our ballot today in school and from what I could see, everybody was voting yes.

Voting yes is a no brainer. Think about it! We're already constantly at loggerheads with TUI and so constantly strengthening the hand of the DES against us all. Must the older be at loggerheads with younger now as well?? And within the same union?? Just how logical is that one!!

Granted, you have young teachers who do nothing to fight for their own rights and you have young teachers not even bothering to unionise. But let's stop taking that personally!! There are all sorts of reasons for their apathy and as Treppen said, an attack on one is an attack on all and this is one attack that we absolutely have to keep fighting against as the future of the profession and consequently the future of education is at stake here!

Also, the mindset of the young is sometimes different. When I was a young teacher the culture was that you'd be crazy not to join a union. Now such is the anti union vibe circulating in colleges, that it's almost, you'd be crazy to actually join a union.

Whatever their problem, we have to fight this one for them as well as with them. Vote yes!!

SligoBrewer · 19-03-2020 12:30pm

Can't believe anyone would vote no to strike action.

I'm out here breaking everything I can for LPT pay and union reps are advocating a no vote as the scales are compatible?
Give me a break.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 12:37pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Can't believe anyone would vote no to strike action.

I'm out here breaking everything I can for LPT pay and union reps are advocating a no vote as the scales are compatible?
Give me a break.

Any strike action that is taken this year will result in teachers getting eaten alive in the media.

Treppen · 19-03-2020 2:19pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Any strike action that is taken this year will result in teachers getting eaten alive in the media.

The day teachers are relying for the media or the public to be on their side, hell would freeze over.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 2:46pm

Treppen wrote: »

The day teachers are relying for the media or the public to be on their side, hell would freeze over.

Agreed, the approach taken in recent years has probably burned a lot bridges in terms of future support from the media and the public.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 3:25pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Agreed, the approach taken in recent years has probably burned a lot bridges in terms of future support from the media and the public.

Name me one issue that the media has generally supported teachers on. One. With a link to at least 2 articles expressing said support. Il save you the bother because it cant be done.

Id imagine youd need to go back decades or more. The public in general and the govt by extension see teachers as easy targets. The newspapers can therefore publish whatever biased rubbish they want and people who have no clue what goes on in schools except from their own ageing experiences as students lap it up as gospel. The level of ignorance and begrudgery is not something any other profession has to put up with. Every now and again, reality dawns on certain, lucky individuals, but only if and when they become invested parents. Emphasis on 'invested'.

So you see, a teacher's union that holds off on vocalising discontent about or taking action around an area of dispute until they feel they may actually have broad public support is a deluded one. Because it will never happen. No matter what the issue.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 3:45pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Name me one issue that the media has generally supported teachers on. One. With a link to at least 2 articles expressing said support. Il save you the bother because it cant be done.

Id imagine youd need to go back decades or more. The public in general and the govt by extension see teachers as easy targets. The newspapers can therefore publish whatever biased rubbish they want and people who have no clue what goes on in schools except from their own ageing experiences as students lap it up as gospel. The level of ignorance and begrudgery is not something any other profession has to put up with. Every now and again, reality dawns on certain, lucky individuals, but only if and when they become invested parents. Emphasis on 'invested'.

So you see, a teacher's union that holds off on vocalising discontent about or taking action around an area of dispute until they feel they may actually have broad public support is a deluded one. Because it will never happen. No matter what the issue.

I'm not going to waste my time dispelling your paranoia, but here's a couple of things from a 30 second Google:

1: https://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-delay-in-getting-paid-ireland-4765575-Aug2019/

2. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-inequality-in-teacher-pay-is-divisive-and-wrong-1.3460820

Going out on a picket this year, of all years, would be the final nail in the coffin in terms of public opinion. On the other hand, there will be plenty of opportunities for the profession to win back a lot of people this year.

I don't foresee any extra money being available for the next public pay deal - that ship has already sailed I'd say.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 4:08pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm not going to waste my time dispelling your paranoia, but here's a couple of things from a 30 second Google:

1: https://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-delay-in-getting-paid-ireland-4765575-Aug2019/

2. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-inequality-in-teacher-pay-is-divisive-and-wrong-1.3460820

Going out on a picket this year, of all years, would be the final nail in the coffin in terms of public opinion. On the other hand, there will be plenty of opportunities for the profession to win back a lot of people this year.

I don't foresee any extra money being available for the next public pay deal - that ship has already sailed I'd say.

No surprise to see you couldnt find 2 on the same topic.

The first issue , disgraceful as it is, isnt something that has led to the threat of industrial action so doesnt qualify. Im talking industrial action threatened.

The second issue qualifies. And who does the Irish Times break out to articulate what were genuine issues? The ever popular (and a teacher to boot) Breda O Brien. Which will ensure that 90pc of non-teachers probably wont read the article and the remaining 10pc will receive it with contempt. Almost like they wanted it that way, right?

If I may narrow my criteria and ask you to check out the work of the education correspondants, supposedly in the know and unbiased, of our two main national newsapers and then come back to me with an article that reads like anything other than an anti union, pro DES rhetoric, you will have impressed me.

There wont be any picketing this year. There also wont be anybody 'won back' as regards supporting teachers no matter how they sort the LC out. That just isnt a thing that happens in Ireland these days.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:03pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

No surprise to see you couldnt find 2 on the same topic.

The first issue , disgraceful as it is, isnt something that has led to the threat of industrial action so doesnt qualify. Im talking industrial action threatened.

The second issue qualifies. And who does the Irish Times break out to articulate what were genuine issues? The ever popular (and a teacher to boot) Breda O Brien. Which will ensure that 90pc of non-teachers probably wont read the article and the remaining 10pc will receive it with contempt. Almost like they wanted it that way, right?

If I may narrow my criteria and ask you to check out the work of the education correspondants, supposedly in the know and unbiased, of our two main national newsapers and then come back to me with an article that reads like anything other than an anti union, pro DES rhetoric, you will have impressed me.

There wont be any picketing this year. There also wont be anybody 'won back' as regards supporting teachers no matter how they sort the LC out. That just isnt a thing that happens in Ireland these days.

You don't appear to have read my post properly - I said that I wouldn't waste my time on you, not that I couldn't find examples for you. I also think the Secret Teacher articles that the Irish Times ran a while back were great but haven't bothered listing them here - you can google them yourself if you're bothered.

Also, you sought evidence of articles that the media has generally supported the media on. Now you are changing the goal posts by trying to narrow your 'criteria' to matters involving industrial action.

If you're looking for something to do, you might consider reflecting on how a campaign of industrial action will reflect well upon the profession and generate a win for teachers in a year of unprecedented international crisis when:

- Our economy will slide into recession pretty shortly;
- Hundreds of thousands of workers will lose their jobs;
- When thousands, if not tens of thousands, of other public servants will be redeployed to assist with front-line efforts to tackle COVID-19;
- When schools will potentially be shut for six months

If you think a campaign of industrial action is worth pursuing in light of the above you've completely lost touch with reality.

portbilly · 19-03-2020 5:15pm

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:17pm

hardybuck wrote: »

You don't appear to have read my post properly - I said that I wouldn't waste my time on you, not that I couldn't find examples for you. I also think the Secret Teacher articles that the Irish Times ran a while back were great but haven't bothered listing them here - you can google them yourself if you're bothered.

Also, you sought evidence of articles that the media has generally supported the media on. Now you are changing the goal posts by trying to narrow your 'criteria' to matters involving industrial action.

If you're looking for something to do, you might consider reflecting on how a campaign of industrial action will reflect well upon the profession and generate a win for teachers in a year of unprecedented international crisis when:

- Our economy will slide into recession pretty shortly;
- Hundreds of thousands of workers will lose their jobs;
- When thousands, if not tens of thousands, of other public servants will be redeployed to assist with front-line efforts to tackle COVID-19;
- When schools will be shut for potentially be shut for six months

If you think a campaign of industrial action is worth pursuing in light of the above you've completely lost touch with reality.

The only timewasting would be the unions trying to win public favour. Ive read all the ST articles. They dont do that much for our PR tbh. Written by somebody who clearly has ambitions outside the classroom.

I declared I wanted to narrow the criteria. No need to point out what I already know. Fact remains only 1 article is relevent to my (revised) criteria and it hardly constitutes a genuine effort at portraying both sides of the story, as Ive already explained.

I also already pointed out that a campaign of industrial action is not going to happen. Where did I imply this was likely to happen?

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:23pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I also already pointed out that a campaign of industrial action is not going to happen. Where did I imply this was likely to happen?

This comes back to an earlier post where a poster couldn't believe how anyone would vote no for strike action, in a thread entitled 'ASTI threaten strike action'.

If you're talking about something else you've gone off topic.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:27pm

portbilly wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

I have no doubt that the unions, and their members, would do the same all over again if it meant protecting their pay at someone else's (i.e. future colleagues) expense.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:27pm

hardybuck wrote: »

This comes back to an earlier post where a poster couldn't believe how anyone would vote no for strike action, in a thread entitled 'ASTI threaten strike action'.

If you're talking about something else you've gone off topic.

The optics of such a campaign was a topic you brought up my friend. Not me

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:28pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The optics of such a campaign was a topic you brought up my friend. Not me

The optics, and the timing of the threatened action, would have a huge impact on the result.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:31pm

portbilly wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

Decision to cut new entrants pay was introduced unilaterally by the govt at bequest of the Troika and after unions had accepted the Croke Park agreement, binding them to industrial peace. There was no sell out.

This is exactly the kind of ignorance that is inevitable once you rely on the Irish Times, Indo, Newstalk for your information. Thank you for proving my point.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:32pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The optics, and the timing of the threatened action, would have a huge impact on the result.

Now youre moving the goalposts

Treppen · 19-03-2020 5:37pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The optics, and the timing of the threatened action, would have a huge impact on the result.

The last thing you want in an industrial action is the public honking horns in support. Only way you get government action is when the public get angry.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:43pm

Treppen wrote: »

The last thing you want in an industrial action is the public honking horns in support. Only way you get government action is when the public get angry.

The nurses got fantastic support from the public and have huge admiration from them - and it made all the difference recently.

ASTI threaten strike action

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