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Is an isolator needed for Electric Vehicle Chargepoint?

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24

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    #32
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Bruthal wrote: »
    The usual use is to allow service or maintenance work on the isolator supplied appliance.

    If that’s all it was for it should be enough to flick the switch on the consumer unit as it is a requirement that it have a dedicated circuit.

    It appears confusion remains on this subject in relation to what the regs dictate.

    My own charge point has an inbuilt RCBO and also has another one in the consumer unit. No isolator and the spark didn’t push for one and was happy to provide a cert 3.


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    #33
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    KCross wrote: »
    If that’s all it was for it should be enough to flick the switch on the consumer unit as it is a requirement that it have a dedicated circuit.

    It appears confusion remains on this subject in relation to what the regs dictate.

    My own charge point has an inbuilt RCBO and also has another one in the consumer unit. No isolator and the spark didn’t push for one and was happy to provide a cert 3.

    Well the isolator is supposed to eliminate the risk of someone switching on the MCB out of sight of the person working on the appliance or device.

    But this risk is very small in domestic situations.


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    #34
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    I had a quick scan of 722 for IS10101 which is the section that deals specifically with EV charging points. I saw no mention of isolators. Perhaps when I have more time I will check more throughly but so far it does not look like a requirement. I am open to correction!

    The proposed wording for Section 722 of I.S. 10101 (you have only seen the Draft for Public Enquiry which is subject to change following the public consultation period, and therefore until the final version is printed - apparently imminently - then you don't know what the actual rules will be) contains no different requirements to ET101 Amendment No. 3 - or at least that's what I concluded after comparing them line by line.


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    #35
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    you have only seen the Draft for Public Enquiry

    Really?


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    #36
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    Really?

    Given that the final draft hasn't been printed, and given that you're not on TC2, yes - really.


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    #37
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Given that the final draft hasn't been printed, and given that you're not on TC2, yes - really.

    I disagree
    You seem upset.


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    #38
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    In fact number of us were shown app in the NSAI offices.


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    #39
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    The truth is the only reason that IS10101 isn’t in general circulation is that the CRU has not “pushed the button”. As most people are aware a soft version will be available so no printing of this is required.

    This soft version will be web based to make it more difficult to circulate illegal versions.


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    #40
    Michelinextra.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Michelinextra.


    Alun wrote: »
    How are you going to define how much electronics are needed to make something an appliance as opposed to just a socket? "Minimal" isn't something you can unambiguously define.

    The definition of an appliance is an item that utilizes electricity except a luminaire or motor

    It would be a similar scenario to USB wall sockets which don't have local isolation.

    My thinking is that it shouldn't require local isolation as the device itself is like a myriad of others in a domestic installation which isn't designed to consume electricity itself , eg: bell transformers

    Emergency switching canbe part of the unit itself


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    #41
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Michelinextra. wrote: »
    The definition of an appliance is an item that utilizes electricity except a luminaire or motor

    It would be a similar scenario to USB wall sockets which don't have local isolation.

    My thinking is that it shouldn't require local isolation as the device itself is like a myriad of others in a domestic installation which isn't designed to consume electricity itself , eg: bell transformers

    Emergency switching canbe part of the unit itself

    It does consume a small amount of electricity for the inbuilt controller, even when not charging. It would be in the order of a few watts only though.

    Would you still say it’s not an appliance?


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    #42
    Michelinextra.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Michelinextra.


    KCross wrote: »
    It does consume a small amount of electricity for the inbuilt controller, even when not charging. It would be in the order of a few watts only though.

    Would you still say it’s not an appliance?

    I didn't say it wasn't an appliance

    Strictly speaking it probably is ,as are 13amp sockets with USB outlets


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    #43
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    In fact number of us were shown app in the NSAI offices.

    Which still means that you don't possess a copy to check definitive rules from as opposed to the Draft for Public Consultation, so there's no need for your silly games.


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    #44
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Michelinextra. wrote: »
    I didn't say it wasn't an appliance

    Strictly speaking it probably is ,as are 13amp sockets with USB outlets

    Why would a 13a USB socket be an appliance? It doesn’t consume any power itself when nothing is plugged in, does it?


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    #45
    Michelinextra.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Michelinextra.


    KCross wrote: »
    Why would a 13a USB socket be an appliance? It doesn’t consume any power itself when nothing is plugged in, does it?

    Ok , I don't know much about them

    I have a couple of different types of usb chargers that are warm when energized but not in use so i assumed there was some "vampire" power being consumed


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    #46
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    49609361026_8f313f081b.jpg

    I saw this in a shopping centre on Saturday night, so I took a quick picture. As can be seen this unit is fed from an isolator although I wouldn't consider it that accessible in an emergency!

    I had a proper check of section 722 of IS 10101 (I only had a quick scan last time) and can confirm that just like ET101 there is no mention of an isolator whatsoever.

    I think that the logic for this is simple; if the EV charging point is just a dumb socket then the rules that apply to socket outlets apply (so no isolator). If there is a lot more to the charging point (such as the example in the attached photo) then the rules for a fixed appliance apply i.e. a local isolator is required. For domestic installations the former would generally apply. I am not too sure what way chargers on the side of the street are done, must check.


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    #47
    Felexicon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    On street and the majority of public car park charge points have no isolator.


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    #48
    Stoner
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    2011 wrote: »
    That very much depends on the kit you select. A colleague at work just bought a Tesla and he charges from a standard 32A commando socket.

    Other specific EV charge points are simply dumb socket outlets, I know this because I discussed it with people selling them at a show in the RDS.
    .

    The charger for a Tesla is in the car above the wheel arch, so it can live with dumb supply as you suggested. You also need a priority switch if you've a shower as the Tesla charge point won't modulate it's load

    This reminds me of lighting circuits.

    Generally a dumb lighting 6-10 gang "klik" box is directly fed.

    Change it to a LCM with some electronics in it and you break it through a one gang klik box to isolate it.

    Some charger solutions are just straight through connections others have smart functions, wifi circuits etc. Like the Zappi 2


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    #49
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    2011 wrote: »
    I am not too sure what way chargers on the side of the street are done, must check.

    We have a charge point(22kW) somewhat like your pic above in our work car park. No isolator anywhere near it.


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    #50
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Given that the final draft hasn't been printed, and given that you're not on TC2, yes - really.

    Not sure where you are getting your information from but the final draft has been printed, in fact IS 10101 will be available for sale on 6th March from www.standards.ie
    More information is available at https://www.nsai.ie/standards/sectors/electrotechnical-standards/national-wiring-rules-faqs/


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    #51
    LeBash
    Registered Users Posts: 3,504 ✭✭✭LeBash


    I'd go with an isolator. Turn it off when you're not charging.

    There are cheeky people around and I'm sure at some stage someone will decide a couple of hours charging at your expense is ok.


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    #52
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    LeBash wrote: »
    I'd go with an isolator. Turn it off when you're not charging.

    There are cheeky people around and I'm sure at some stage someone will decide a couple of hours charging at your expense is ok.

    That would be best achieved with an isolator inside the house which will not align with the requirements for a fixed appliance (for smart chargers).


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    #53
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »
    Not sure where you are getting your information from but the final draft has been printed
    They will obviously print it the same day it's on sale:D


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    #54
    Michelinextra.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Michelinextra.


    What's the crack with the height of that local isolator in the pic

    The unit clearly requires local isolation, do they work to their own regs


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    #55
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,421 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Stoner wrote: »
    The charger for a Tesla is in the car above the wheel arch, so it can live with dumb supply as you suggested. You also need a priority switch if you've a shower as the Tesla charge point won't modulate it's load

    Some charger solutions are just straight through connections others have smart functions, wifi circuits etc. Like the Zappi 2
    ALL EV's have their charger, built in, the Tesla isn't anything special in this regard.

    The confusion arises because many people mistakenly call the box on the wall that they plug their EV into a "charger", be it a big box like the e-cars one above or something smaller like most domestic ones, whereas in reality it's called a chargepoint, or EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment). The only extra circuitry in a commercial charger would be connected with the provision of DC charging if applicable, or for charging (money, that is, not electricity!).

    The point is though that despite what you say these domestic chargepoints are not just dumb sockets. The EVSE and the car's built-in charger communicate via two control pins on the connector according to a defined standard called J1772. This is used to communicate maximum allowable charging levels and to initiate charging. The EVSE as an absolute minimum will have a small control board to manage this and a relay to start and stop the charging supply. There's a handshake that takes place when you plug the car in and without that it won't charge.

    In other words, if you did manage to take a standard J1772 connector and wire up just the L,N and E to a dumb socket and plugged it into your car, exactly nothing would happen. That's why the "granny cable" supplied with EVs has a large box inline with it to provide the same function. That's why in proper parlance they're called portable EVSes.


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    #56
    Michelinextra.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Michelinextra.


    Obviously that is the right height for it in a public place but what is the regs on it?


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    #57
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    The point is though that despite what you say these domestic chargepoints are not just dumb sockets.

    Some are, some are not.

    Like I say I have a colleague that charges his Tesla off a 32A commando type single phase socket.


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    #58
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,421 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    Some are, some are not.

    Like I say I have a colleague that charges his Tesla off a 32A commando type single phase socket.
    Using what cable? One of these?

    2020-03-03-10-47-39-Charging-Connectors-Tesla.png


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    #59
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    Using what cable? One of these?

    Not sure to be honest.
    I should meet him today so I will ask.

    I was talking to Stoner last night he has installed a few and I am pretty sure the ones he installed were dumb too. I’m sure he will confirm here later. I haven’t installed one myself, but plan to soon.


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    #60
    Michelinextra.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭Michelinextra.


    The cable doesn't matter , whether it has equipment inline or not

    It's the unit itself that may require local isolation deepending on what it is


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    #61
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,421 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    Not sure to be honest.
    I should meet him today so I will ask.

    I was talking to Stoner last night he has installed a few and I am pretty sure the ones he installed were dumb too. I’m sure he will confirm here later. I haven’t installed one myself, but plan to soon.
    Well, the cable illustrated is what comes standard with Teslas, much like the one I showed a picture of in a recent post that came with my Kia. These are effectively exactly the same devices as in wall mounted chargepoints just in an inline box that's all.

    The only other difference is that the controllers in them restrict the maximum charging current more than for the wallmounted versions. Mine restricts charging to 10A by default, but can be changed by pressing a button, before plugging it into the car because of the handshake, to restrict it to 8A or 6A. According to my dealer it turns out some people were connecting them via low quality extension leads and burning the cable out.

    And no, sorry, no chargepoint is entirely "dumb". Some are less smart than others certainly, but there's more to them than simply a socket. Mine, which is as simple as they come with no WiFi, BT etc. costs around €5-600 to buy for example.


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