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Is an isolator needed for Electric Vehicle Chargepoint?

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  • 27-02-2020 10:52pm
    #1
    planck26
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭


    Hi,
    I'm getting different opinions as to whether an outdoor isolator switch is required at a domestic electric vehicle chargepoint. Reading earlier threads on this it seems there was to be an update to the wiring regulations a few months ago, but I haven't seen a definitive answer. Can anyone clarify the situation, as I'd rather not have one if not absolutely necessary?


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    #2
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,729 ✭✭✭meercat


    planck26 wrote: »
    Hi,
    I'm getting different opinions as to whether an outdoor isolator switch is required at a domestic electric vehicle chargepoint. Reading earlier threads on this it seems there was to be an update to the wiring regulations a few months ago, but I haven't seen a definitive answer. Can anyone clarify the situation, as I'd rather not have one if not absolutely necessary?

    55.1.2
    Every appliance shall be provided with a separate isolating switch ..........
    The device shall be installed within 2mts .........


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    #3
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    meercat wrote: »
    55.1.2
    Every appliance shall be provided with a separate isolating switch ..........
    The device shall be installed within 2mts .........

    A socket outlet is hardly an appliance.

    I'm not sure what ET10101 states, will check later.


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    #4
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,729 ✭✭✭meercat


    2011 wrote: »
    A socket outlet is hardly an appliance.

    I'm not sure what ET10101 states, will check later.

    The chargepoint would be a fixed appliance


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    #5
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,687 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Why not put one in for servicing or swapping points in future. Would make sense the switch is inexpensive regs or not.


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    #6
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    meercat wrote: »
    The chargepoint would be a fixed appliance

    I would call it a socket outlet.


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    #7
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,729 ✭✭✭meercat


    2011 wrote: »
    I would call it a socket outlet.

    In safe electric focus on ev,they say to fit an isolator


    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/07/July-2019-Newsletter-Final.pdf


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    #8
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    meercat wrote: »
    In safe electric focus on ev,they say to fit an isolator


    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/07/July-2019-Newsletter-Final.pdf

    I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t I would go with whatever IS10101 requires. I’m just stating that I don’t see it as a fixed appliance.


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    #9
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    An EV charge point has an inbuilt RCBO... does that qualify as an isolator or does it have to be one of those manual switches to qualify as an "isolator"?


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    #10
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    meercat wrote: »
    In safe electric focus on ev,they say to fit an isolator


    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/07/July-2019-Newsletter-Final.pdf

    It seems to say its under review and gives advice but doesnt say its mandatory?
    It is also worth noting that some form of local isolation and further protection are currently under review and will be added to in the new edition of the wiring rules . See Safe Electric installation advice below
    - Install an isolator for maintenance and emergency switching

    2011 wrote: »
    I'm not sure what ET10101 states, will check later.

    Electricians seem to have different views on this. Ask one guy and he says yes its required and another says no.... It would be good if you could confirm exactly what the wording in the new regs say, to give a definitive answer.


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    #11
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    listermint wrote: »
    Why not put one in for servicing or swapping points in future. Would make sense the switch is inexpensive regs or not.

    Because they are particularly ugly if its on the front of your house... which is where an EV charge point is usually mounted.


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    #12
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    listermint wrote: »
    Why not put one in for servicing or swapping points in future. Would make sense the switch is inexpensive regs or not.

    May as well put a second isolator in to service the first isolator


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    #13
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    meercat wrote: »
    In safe electric focus on ev,they say to fit an isolator

    According to the linked Safe Electric document:
    They state that the isolator is for “maintenance” or “emergency”. What maintenance would you expect to carry out on a socket that could not be carried out by isolation at the distribution board? Will inclusion of an isolator not just mean that another item needs to be maintained?

    What emergency? The car goes on fire? It may be safer to isolate from further away. If not an emergency stop would be preferable in my opinion.

    Also why do we not require an isolator for maintenance and emergency situations for every socket outlet?

    It seems odd to me.

    Anyway if Safe Electric are just repeating the new requirements as per ET101 or IS10101 fair enough. If not personally I would not install an isolator.


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    #14
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,687 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    KCross wrote: »
    Because they are particularly ugly if its on the front of your house... which is where an EV charge point is usually mounted.

    Charge point at from of house.. nah side entrance for me. Who wants a charge point hanging off the front wall. Particularly ugly


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    #15
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    I had a quick scan of 722 for IS10101 which is the section that deals specifically with EV charging points. I saw no mention of isolators. Perhaps when I have more time I will check more throughly but so far it does not look like a requirement. I am open to correction!


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    #16
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    listermint wrote: »
    Charge point at from of house.. nah side entrance for me. Who wants a charge point hanging off the front wall. Particularly ugly

    That is all very well for those that have a side entrance, many don’t for example terraced houses.


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    #17
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote:
    Also why do we not require an isolator for maintenance and emergency situations for every socket outlet?

    A chargepoint isn't simply a socket though, there's circuitry in there of varying complexity depending on how sophisticated the chargepoint is. Maybe that makes it an "appliance" and therefore requires an islation switch.

    I had an outdoor 13A socket fitted at the same time as the chargepoint, fed from a separate cable and RCBO and that doesn't have an isolation switch.


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    #18
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    A chargepoint isn't simply a socket though, there's circuitry in there of varying complexity depending on how sophisticated the chargepoint is.

    Generally for domestic use it is simply a socket outlet. The charger and more complex circuitry is contained within the vehicle itself. A standard 32A or 16A commando type socket outlet is used by some.


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    #19
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    Generally for domestic use it is simply a socket outlet. The charger and more complex circuitry is contained within the vehicle itself. A standard 32A or 16A commando type socket outlet is used by some.
    It's true that the actual charging circuitry, including AC to DC conversion is in the car but even in the very simplest of domestic chargepoints at the very least there's circuitry that communicates with the car's charging electronics to trigger a relay in the chargepoint to initiate charging. Here's the inside of the basic chargepoint I have taken from the installation manual ...

    2020-02-28-15-34-28-eo-Mini-Installation-Guide-pdf-Foxit-Reader.png

    More complex home chargepoints have circuitry in them to enable smart control and monitoring of charging using bluetooth or WiFi, and to enable them to work together with solar panels and load limiters in the case of electric showers or other high current draw items.

    Also, if I want to charge my car from a simple 13A socket, I have to use the so-called "granny cable" or EVSE. It's not just a simple cable, but a sizeable box of electronics, a portable chargepoint effectively.

    IMG-20200228-152719.jpg


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    #20
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    It's true that the actual charging circuitry, including AC to DC conversion is in the car but even in the very simplest of domestic chargepoints at the very least there's circuitry that communicates with the car's charging electronics to trigger a relay in the chargepoint to initiate charging.

    That very much depends on the kit you select. A colleague at work just bought a Tesla and he charges from a standard 32A commando socket.

    Other specific EV charge points are simply dumb socket outlets, I know this because I discussed it with people selling them at a show in the RDS.
    More complex home chargepoints have circuitry in them to enable smart control and monitoring of charging using bluetooth or WiFi, and to enable them to work together with solar panels and load limiters in the case of electric showers or other high current draw items.

    Understood. However all of this can also be contained in a control panel upstream of the outlet and therefore upstream of the isolator. I appreciate that this is not always the case. Therefore switching the isolator off would leave this kit energized.

    I would agree with your point that if all the kit you mention is on the wall outside it would be best to have a local isolator for it. However I think that the kit and the isolator would ruin the appearance of the front a house. This is why I would integrate it into the distribution board.

    By the way the above mentioned Tesla has many of the features you describe built in. They work just fine when fed from a dumb socket.


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    #21
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    listermint wrote: »
    Charge point at from of house.. nah side entrance for me. Who wants a charge point hanging off the front wall. Particularly ugly

    Your house and driveway orientation will dictate that though.


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    #22
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    That very much depends on the kit you select. A colleague at work just bought a Tesla and he charges from a standard 32A commando socket.
    Tesla do an optional version of their "granny cable", what they call the "tesla mobile connector" that is terminated with a 16A industrial plug as opposed to a 13A domestic plug. He can plug it into a 32A socket if he likes but it will still only charge at 3.7kW, or 16A max.

    https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/support/charging-connectors

    It's still not a simple straight through cable though and has an inline box of electronics just like the one I have that I showed a picture of.


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    #23
    Felexicon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    I don't think one is required for an unthetered unit like the EO mini posted above.

    Also the majority of chargers I have come across do not have a built in RCBO


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    #24
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Felexicon wrote: »
    I don't think one is required for an unthetered unit like the EO mini posted above.
    According to the guy who installed mine, it was. Why would tethered versus untethered make a difference? They do a tethered version of the EO mini, and it's identical in every other way.


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    #25
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    It's still not a simple straight through cable though and has an inline box of electronics just like the one I have that I showed a picture of.

    Yes, but the electronics are downstream of the standard 16A commando socket outlet. So my point is the socket is just like any other socket so no isolator required.


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    #26
    Felexicon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    Alun wrote: »
    According to the guy who installed mine, it was. Why would tethered versus untethered make a difference? They do a tethered version of the EO mini, and it's identical in every other way.

    I would see the EO Mini as a socket. The electronics in it are minimal.
    I just hate the look of the isolator next to what is a very neat unit.


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    #27
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    2011 wrote: »
    Yes, but the electronics are downstream of the standard 16A commando socket outlet. So my point is the socket is just like any other socket so no isolator required.

    What is an isolator typically required for in the context of a domestic scenario? I presume its an emergency shutoff in case there is a fault?

    e.g. A tumble dryer that might be plugged in under a counter where you cant easily get at the plug so you have to have an isolation switch above the counter that can be reached.... thats the general idea, isnt it?

    If thats the case I suppose for an external charge point you may not have access to the consumer unit as its inside the house and could be locked up hence the 2m guideline?

    Maybe then, if the unit has an inbuilt RCBO that can be flicked, would that be enough to satisfy the isolator requirement?


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    #28
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    Yes, but the electronics are downstream of the standard 16A commando socket outlet. So my point is the socket is just like any other socket so no isolator required.

    Not really as in the case of a fixed chargepoint the electronics inside are permanently active without an on/off switch. If you pull the plug out it's still active.

    In the case of a granny cable or portable EVSE as it's more accurately known, you can unplug it and it's immediately made inactive.


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    #29
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Felexicon wrote: »
    I would see the EO Mini as a socket. The electronics in it are minimal.
    How are you going to define how much electronics are needed to make something an appliance as opposed to just a socket? "Minimal" isn't something you can unambiguously define.


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    #30
    Felexicon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    Alun wrote: »
    How are you going to define how much electronics are needed to make something an appliance as opposed to just a socket? "Minimal" isn't something you can unambiguously define.

    Well the problem is that nothing is defined for EV Chargers yet so I use my best judgement.
    Someone else may think I'm completely wrong. And that's ok.


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    #31
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    KCross wrote: »
    What is an isolator typically required for in the context of a domestic scenario? I presume its an emergency shutoff in case there is a fault?

    The usual use is to allow service or maintenance work on the isolator supplied appliance.


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