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The worrying rise of TERFism in the UK (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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    #212
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Except it’s not true that change in society requires consensus from the majority.

    Homosexuality was decriminalised without consent from the majority in an atmosphere of extreme homophobia.

    Gay people have only had to “convince” the majority in one case. Gay marriage. And that was only because of a constitutional issue.

    Your confusing changing a law with changing society.

    Changing a law requires a signature..

    Changing society norms takes many decades of debate, education and campaigning..
    LLMMLL wrote: »
    How people will react to sharing their single sex spaces with trans people is unknown

    If you're talking about trans women with penis's sharing spaces with women then no it's not unknown.

    I'm sure many women might get used to it quickly enough if they were given the opportunity but equally there are large swathes that will never accept it.

    Laws, as you suggest, could be introduced to force it on gyms, leisure centres etc but you can't force people to use them.

    Whether you agree or not, at some point there has to be consensus.


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    #213
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Your confusing changing a law with changing society.

    Changing a law requires a signature..

    Changing society norms takes many decades of debate, education and campaigning..



    If you're talking about trans women with penis's sharing spaces with women then no it's not unknown.

    I'm sure many women might get used to it quickly enough if they were given the opportunity but equally there are large swathes that will never accept it.

    Laws, as you suggest, could be introduced to force it on gyms, leisure centres etc but you can't force people to use them.

    Whether you agree or not, at some point there has to be consensus.

    But the point I’m making is that there does not need to be a consensus.

    After 1993 for instance, gay men could not be criminally prosecuted in regards to their sexuality. It doesn’t matter that large swathes of the population were extremely homophobic. It doesn’t matter that there wasn’t a public consensus around gay people. Those prosecutions could not legally be made.

    If there was a law introduced around this subject, or even general policy in this area, then that would further trans rights. Even if every cis person decided to stop using the changing rooms, a trans person would still have the right to use it. No consent from you needed. No begging the majority to allow them their rights.

    So your portrayal of yourself as being part of a majority that needs to be convinced is just false.

    Of course it would be bettter to have legal protections AND general social acceptance. But that’s not going to come from a trans person debating their identity with someone who clearly can’t be convinced on a niche Internet forum. Sorry rennaws but nobody owes you a debate, and it’s not going to affect the trans rights movement in the slightest if someone doesn’t want to debate your crude “scientific realities”.


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    #214
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    If there was a law introduced around this subject, or even general policy in this area, then that would further trans rights. Even if every cis person decided to stop using the changing rooms, a trans person would still have the right to use it. No consent from you needed. No begging the majority to allow them their rights.

    That was exactly my point. No consent from anyone required. A few customers would be good though. Create spaces that make the vast majority of your customers uncomfortable and you won't be in business very long..
    LLMMLL wrote: »
    So your portrayal of yourself as being part of a majority that needs to be convinced is just false.

    Jesus this dishonesty again.. For the second time, i'm not portraying myself as anything. Why do you keep coming back with this blatant lie ?

    Is your position not strong enough that you have to try and undermine mine with lies ?

    I've already said that i personally wouldn't have a problem sharing a changing room with a trans person or any other person, regardless of gender or anything else.

    I've been to plenty of naked resorts and naked beaches, i'm happily married with grown up kids and i'm well passed the point of giving two fiddlers flucks what you have or haven't got dangling between your legs.

    I don't need convincing of anything. Is that clear enough for you ?


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    #215
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Rennaws wrote: »
    I don't need convincing of anything. Is that clear enough for you ?

    So you're arguing for discrimination based on what you think other people might find objectionable?

    Why on earth would you do that?


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    #216
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Rennaws wrote: »
    That was exactly my point. No consent from anyone required. A few customers would be good though. Create spaces that make the vast majority of your customers uncomfortable and you won't be in business very long..



    Jesus this dishonesty again.. For the second time, i'm not portraying myself as anything. Why do you keep coming back with this blatant lie ?

    Is your position not strong enough that you have to try and undermine mine with lies ?

    I've already said that i personally wouldn't have a problem sharing a changing room with a trans person or any other person, regardless of gender or anything else.

    I've been to plenty of naked resorts and naked beaches, i'm happily married with grown up kids and i'm well passed the point of giving two fiddlers flucks what you have or haven't got dangling between your legs.

    I don't need convincing of anything. Is that clear enough for you ?


    Here’s your quote from earlier in the thread:
    I couldn’t give a fiddlers either way because being straight, white and male I like things just as they are anyway but trans people need the world to change to suit them while expecting the rest of us to ignore certain scientific realities and that’s going to take some serious debating.

    You say you like things just the way you are and say “the rest of US” rather than the “rest of THEM” when characterising the group of people who trans people are supposedly reliant on convincing.

    You’re very clearly presenting yourself as one of those who need to be “convinced” before trans rights can progress. Why else would you mention your happiness with the current situation?

    As for gyms and their customers it’s completely irrelevant. If the right of trans people to use the changing rooms of the gender they identify as was enshrined in law or policy, the gyms would have no choice. All gyms. Trans people would have that right whether you liked it or not. No consultation would be made with you or people like you. nobody would need to convince you or anybody in your group to attain that right.

    And it’s a little unrealistic to think that all gyms would have to close because they’d have no cutomers because trans people were using their changing rooms.


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    #217
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,794 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Rennaws wrote: »
    That was exactly my point. No consent from anyone required. A few customers would be good though. Create spaces that make the vast majority of your customers uncomfortable and you won't be in business very long..


    Isn't this why we have anti-discrimination laws, if a business creates a traveller free space because it makes their customers uncomfortable, they would quite rightly lose a case on discrimination grounds. By makeing special rules that affect trans people, your breaching the gender component of our equlity law.


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    #218
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    You say you like things just the way you are and say “the rest of US” rather than the “rest of THEM” when characterising the group of people who trans people are supposedly reliant on convincing.

    I use the term "us" because

    a) I'm not trans

    and

    b) I don't use the label that trans people use for us

    This is getting really tiresome..

    Not everything has to be an agenda and we're not all on a crusade you know..
    LLMMLL wrote: »
    You’re very clearly presenting yourself as one of those who need to be “convinced” before trans rights can progress. Why else would you mention your happiness with the current situation?

    Why on earth wouldn't I be happy with the current situation ?

    No offence but I mind mine and my own.

    For the most part, and certainly for the purpose of this conversation, I couldn't give a shi1te about your life or anyone else's that I don't know.

    But then i've also explicitly expressed the fact that i'd also be happy were the current situation to change.

    So i'm not sure what it is that you expect but please, feel free to keep it to yourself.

    I'm not asking..

    On that note..


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    #219
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rennaws wrote: »
    I use the term "us" because

    a) I'm not trans

    and

    b) I don't use the label that trans people use for us

    This is getting really tiresome..

    Not everything has to be an agenda and we're not all on a crusade you know..



    Why on earth wouldn't I be happy with the current situation ?

    No offence but I mind mine and my own.

    For the most part, and certainly for the purpose of this conversation, I couldn't give a shi1te about your life or anyone else's that I don't know.

    But then i've also explicitly expressed the fact that i'd also be happy were the current situation to change.

    So i'm not sure what it is that you expect but please, feel free to keep it to yourself.

    I'm not asking..

    On that note..

    I don't understand. You claim not to care about this issue but it obviously does excercise you a lot. Your protestations to be honest sound quite hollow. I mean if you really are that non plussed about the issue why is it irking you so much that you are posting here.

    Oh by the way. The "current situation" changed 3 years ago in Ireland. We have self ID. We have had self ID for 3 years. No big deal.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #220
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Rennaws wrote: »
    I use the term "us" because

    a) I'm not trans

    and

    b) I don't use the label that trans people use for us

    This is getting really tiresome..

    Not everything has to be an agenda and we're not all on a crusade you know..



    Why on earth wouldn't I be happy with the current situation ?

    No offence but I mind mine and my own.

    For the most part, and certainly for the purpose of this conversation, I couldn't give a shi1te about your life or anyone else's that I don't know.

    But then i've also explicitly expressed the fact that i'd also be happy were the current situation to change.

    So i'm not sure what it is that you expect but please, feel free to keep it to yourself.

    I'm not asking..

    On that note..

    This is quite bizarre.

    You’re basically proclaiming to have very little interest in a topic that you’ve commented on multiple times across multiple threads.


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    #221
    TheAsYLuMkeY
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭TheAsYLuMkeY


    Mods wrote:
    Finally, to be crystal clear, it is against the forum charter to say or imply that transwomen are not women,

    Is that not an oxymoron?

    The way is see it,

    Transwomen are Transwomen
    Transmen are Transmen
    women are women
    Men are Men

    Is that not a factual reality of the existence of all of the above terms in our lexicon?


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    #222
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    TheAsYLuMkeY wrote: »
    Is that not an oxymoron?

    The way is see it,

    Transwomen are Transwomen
    Transmen are Transmen
    women are women
    Men are Men

    Is that not a factual reality of the existence of all of the above terms in our lexicon?

    Mod

    Sorry but as always and as per the whole site we dont debate or discuss moderation on thread.

    The forum charter is very specific in saying trans identities are not up for debate in this forum. We wont be changing the forum charter right now as it was arrived at by consultation and consensus.

    Sorry but as per the original mod instruction we will not having a debate here that transwomen are not women.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #223
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Mod

    Sorry but as always and as per the whole site we dont debate or discuss moderation on thread.

    The forum charter is very specific in saying trans identities are not up for debate in this forum. We wont be changing the forum charter right now as it was arrived at by consultation and consensus.

    Sorry but as per the original mod instruction we will not having a debate here that transwomen are not women.


    Can I ask who you consulted to get the consensus that transwomen are women and transmen are men?

    Why do you not ban the term 'trans' altogether as surely that must be transphobic as it clearly highlights that there is a difference between biological sex and gender identity?


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    #224
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    ingalway wrote: »
    Can I ask who you consulted to get the consensus that transwomen are women and transmen are men?

    Why do you not ban the term 'trans' altogether as surely that must be transphobic as it clearly highlights that there is a difference between biological sex and gender identity?


    I fail to see how your comment is help, beyond the thinly veiled troll like remark. I could be biased, being trans and a mod.


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    #225
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭ingalway


    L.Jenkins wrote: »
    I fail to see how your comment is help, beyond the thinly veiled troll like remark. I could be biased, being trans and a mod.
    My comments are questions, perfectly reasonable and no trolling whatsoever.
    The purpose of this site and life in general is to ask questions, get answers, debate, agree, disagree, in a reasonable manner.

    I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be helping?

    Is you telling me that you are a mod a thinly veiled suggestion that I shut up?


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    #226
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mod

    Sorry. Nope. Trolls not welcome.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



This discussion has been closed.
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