EU to recommend abolishing DST

31-08-2018 7:42pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

There are a couple of issues:

1. I'm not aware of the EU having any power to make law in that area. So it's just a suggestion.

2. It would be impractical to have two time zones on the Island of Ireland.

On your second point, no it wouldn't. It doesn't matter.
Lots of countries bordering each other are in different time zones, makes no difference to life.

Cork Boy 53 · 31-08-2018 7:46pm

I can remember when I was a child in the late 60s/early 70s, that there was a period of 2 or 3 years when the clocks did not go back in October. I can still remember starting the school day in mid winter in full darkness..

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 7:47pm

GarIT wrote: »

No.

So let's say you have a family with two parents working.

One goes to work at 8 the other at 9.

The one that goes at 9 drops the kids to schools at 8.45 and can be at work for 9.

What do they do in January ?

Their employer let's them come in a hour later ?

They pay extra child care for the extra hours ?

Much easier to move the clocks on a bank holiday Sunday and at the end of march

GarIT · 31-08-2018 7:50pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So let's say you have a family with two parents working.

One goes to work at 8 the other at 9.

The one that goes at 9 drops the kids to schools at 8.45 and can be at work for 9.

What do they do in January ?

Their employer let's them come in a hour later ?

They pay extra child care for the extra hours ?

Much easier to move the clocks on a bank holiday Sunday and at the end of march

Most employers would follow the schools and opening times of everything else, it would be bad publicity not to. You commented on what would be easier, everything starting an hour later would be easier than the time changing.

Bit cynical · 31-08-2018 7:52pm

Would mean abolishing IST (Irish Standard Time) and Ireland adopting GMT (Grenwich Mean Time) year round.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-08-2018 7:54pm

GarIT wrote: »

Most employers would follow the schools and opening times of everything else, it would be bad publicity not to. You commented on what would be easier, everything starting an hour later would be easier than the time changing.

So the extra hour daylight I'm getting in the evening is of no use to me because I started work and hour late and have to stay an hour later.

Is the time change twice a year really that difficult ?

It's a stupid idea

Niles Crane · 31-08-2018 7:54pm

Considering the amount of business we do with the UK and the fact that we are right beside them and have a land border with the UK it would be completely daft to go onto a different time than them.

31-08-2018 8:01pm

Niles Crane wrote: »

Considering the amount of business we do with the UK and the fact that we are right beside them and have a land border with the UK it would be completely daft to go onto a different time than them.

And yet international companies manage with much more time difference

jeoun · 31-08-2018 8:02pm

Why not put the clocks back 30 minutes across Europe in October and then we are done with time changes forever?? This seems to be an easy solution that I have never heard anyone putting forward.

evolving_doors · 31-08-2018 8:05pm

jeoun wrote: »

Why not put the clocks back 30 minutes across Europe in October?? This seems to be an easy solution that I have never heard anyone putting forward.

I'll go with that.
/close thread/

31-08-2018 9:04pm

GLaDOS wrote: »

All I know is it is depressing as fúck when the clocks go back and suddenly you're leaving work in almost complete darkness

By then the first stirrings the build up to Christmas have begun to try and lift the gloom.

Andy From Sligo · 31-08-2018 9:46pm

right - so if Europe abolish DST .. and the UK is leaving europe next march or whenever it is, and going to keep DST - then we could find an hours difference between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland ?

dxhound2005 · 31-08-2018 9:54pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

right - so if Europe abolish DST .. and the UK is leaving europe next march or whenever it is, and going to keep DST - then we could find an hours difference between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland ?

Happens all over the world. Even within countries.

Riskymove · 31-08-2018 9:55pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

right - so if Europe abolish DST .. and the UK is leaving europe next march or whenever it is, and going to keep DST - then we could find an hours difference between Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland ?

If UK keep DST we will have same time as UK for 6 months and be one hour ahead of them for 6 months

31-08-2018 10:36pm

I’ve been calling for this to happen for years. Changing clocks is idiotic and having extra light in the morning compared to the evening is a total waste. We should stay on summer time all year round.

I really can’t understand why anyone would prefer the extra light in the morning when you are sitting in work during the week and sleeping at weekends. It’s espeically at weekends that the extra hour in the evening would be most beneficial as a lot would probably leave work in darkness during the week even with the extra hour but it would still be a little brighter going home and give you that extra stretch on weekends rather than depressing dark evenings.

Andy From Sligo · 31-08-2018 10:41pm

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

I’ve been calling for this to happen for years. Changing clocks is idiotic and having extra light in the morning compared to the evening is a total waste. We should stay on summer time all year round.

I really can’t understand why anyone would prefer the extra light in the morning when you are sitting in work during the week and sleeping at weekends. It’s espeically at weekends that the extra hour in the evening would be most beneficial as a lot would probably leave work in darkness during the week even with the extra hour but it would still be a little brighter going home and give you that extra stretch on weekends rather than depressing dark evenings.

wouldnt the extra light in the morning help you to wake up better? - there is something about chemical in your brain that light triggers your biological system to wake up - if its dark in the mornings then it might make you feel more tired

Capt'n Midnight · 31-08-2018 10:54pm

wexie wrote: »

It already isn't, if you look at a map of the timezones more than half of the country should be in GMT -1 if you were to go by the orbit of the sun.

Which is why we use Irish Standard Time here.

This change would mean we'd use IST all year around rather than just during the summer.

31-08-2018 11:04pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

wouldnt the extra light in the morning help you to wake up better? - there is something about chemical in your brain that light triggers your biological system to wake up - if its dark in the mornings then it might make you feel more tired

It's not enough in the winter mornings to wake up anyway, may as well have the daylight when the majority can enjoy it most.

31-08-2018 11:18pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

I’ve been calling for this to happen for years. Changing clocks is idiotic and having extra light in the morning compared to the evening is a total waste. We should stay on summer time all year round.

I really can’t understand why anyone would prefer the extra light in the morning when you are sitting in work during the week and sleeping at weekends. It’s espeically at weekends that the extra hour in the evening would be most beneficial as a lot would probably leave work in darkness during the week even with the extra hour but it would still be a little brighter going home and give you that extra stretch on weekends rather than depressing dark evenings.

wouldnt the extra light in the morning help you to wake up better? - there is something about chemical in your brain that light triggers your biological system to wake up - if its dark in the mornings then it might make you feel more tired

I’m a disaster in the morning anyway regardless of light or dark (I also have black out blinds and curtains so my room is pitch dark even in summe) also even as things are it’s dark when people are going to work. Having a bit more light in the evenings would be better for everyone and allow people to do things with a bit of light.

Harry Palmr · 31-08-2018 11:22pm

You can tell those who don't do a tap of work outside a commuting to an office type environment. They are so removed from the outdoor life they don't really think light matters until the weekend or summer hols.

The 30 minute compromise idea has some merit though.

Andy From Sligo · 31-08-2018 11:24pm

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

I’m a disaster in the morning anyway regardless of light or dark (I also have black out blinds and curtains so my room is pitch dark even in summe) also even as things are it’s dark when people are going to work. Having a bit more light in the evenings would be better for everyone and allow people to do things with a bit of light.

I got some blackout blinds for my bedroom in the summer and woke up to a dark room - actually made me feel worse personally, really groggy when i first woke up. maybe I didnt wait enough time for my body clock to adjust to the blackout blinds and give them enough of a chance , but I stopped using them and woke up a lot better in the mornings.

Laois_Man · 31-08-2018 11:29pm

Riskymove wrote: »

If UK keep DST we will have same time as UK for 6 months and be one hour ahead of them for 6 months

It's not a 6/6 split. End October to End March is 5 months. It's a 7/5 split - we would only be indifferent time zone to them for 5 months - in the unlikely event that the UK keeps DST very long after everyone else drops it

DST isn't a problem if it's done properly. Dark mornings are not a problem from End October to End March - It only needs to be done from about early November to Early/Mid February. It makes sense to keep it but do the darn thing right!

31-08-2018 11:34pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

You can tell those who don't do a tap of work outside a commuting to an office type environment. They are so removed from the outdoor life they don't really think light matters until the weekend or summer hols.

The 30 minute compromise idea has some merit though.

Plenty of people do shift work. In the winter you can go for weeks without seeing daylight.

Andy From Sligo · 31-08-2018 11:36pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Plenty of people do shift work. In the winter you can go for weeks without seeing daylight.

you need plenty of Vit D and daylight bulbs!

Stephen15 · 31-08-2018 11:38pm

It seems to me in the month of January the mornings are darker and evenings are starting to get brighter. In December it feels that the mornings are brighter than January but yet the evenings are brighter. I think it would be better if we just used winter time in December and January no need at all for it November, Feburary and March.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 11:40pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

You can tell those who don't do a tap of work outside a commuting to an office type environment. They are so removed from the outdoor life they don't really think light matters until the weekend or summer hols.

The 30 minute compromise idea has some merit though.

Hattip:

There will be the same amount of daylight hours whatever happens. So you can do your outdoor stuff whenever, if not tied to office hours.

And it is summertime that allows commuters to actually do outdoor stuff after work.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 31-08-2018 11:44pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

It seems to me in the month of January the mornings are darker and evenings are starting to get brighter. In December it feels that the mornings are brighter than January but yet the evenings are brighter. I think it would be better if we just used winter time in December and January no need at all for it November, Feburary and March.

Thats correct. January sunrises get later until the 2nd or 3rd I think. The earliest sunset is in early December - around the 12th.

Andy From Sligo · 31-08-2018 11:47pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Thats correct. January sunrises get later until the 2nd or 3rd I think. The earliest sunset is in early December - around the 12th.

doesnt that depend which part of the country you are in?

NIMAN · 01-09-2018 12:02am

If this were to happen,and I don't think it will, it will be mayhem for those of us who cross the border daily.

I'll have to start wearing 2 watches ffs.

01-09-2018 12:04am

NIMAN wrote: »

If this were to happen,and I don't think it will, it will be mayhem for those of us who cross the border daily.

I'll have to start wearing 2 watches ffs.

Really?
You can't add or subtract one hour?
Jaysis!

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-09-2018 12:25am

bubblypop wrote: »

Really?
You can't add or subtract one hour?
Jaysis!

It would be slightly weird but no big deal. Some states in the US don't do DST. And some counties and Native American territories don't either ( and others do where the State doesn't).

The people who cross those borders know what to do.

01-09-2018 12:49am

Theres countries in Europe on different time zones, right beside each other.
Doesn't matter

McTigs · 03-09-2018 4:15pm

Sardine wrote: »

The little darlings all get driven to school now anyway. I would be over the moon if we keep summer time.
Does anyone know if this will actually happen?

Well my little darlings walk and I'd rather they didn't have to walk in the dark

I suppose we all have our reasons for wanting it one way or the other.... the thought of getting up and going to work in the middle of the night or having to wait until 10am on a saturday to do anything outdoorsy holds no appeal whatso ever.

EdgeCase · 04-09-2018 8:13am

Technically speaking, Irish Standard Time is UTC+1, we are on daylight saving time when the clock goes back.

The UK is standardised on UTC+0 "GMT"
BST is British Summer Time, not "standard time".

IST means Irish Standard Time, not "summer time".

While the majority of the continent is on UTC+1 - Central European Time CET.

Both the UK and European countries move to a +1 offset for summer time.
Ireland technically moves to a -1 offset from UTC+1 for winter time.

So in practical terms were on the same time as the UK due to the opposite offset.

If Ireland were to default to Irish Standard Time / Am Caighdeánach Éireannach IST without an offset, we are then on UTC+1 the same as France.

So basically, we would be no longer putting the clock back while everyone else wools stop putting the clock forward.

The result of that would be Irish time on CET and British time permanently on GMT. Ireland being on the same time as most of continental Europe and no longer coordinated with the UK.

You'd have to weigh up whether it would make more sense to move Ireland to UTC+0 and remain in sync with the UK. It's possible UTC+1 all year here is too far east for us from the point of view of daylight in the morning. You're looking at sunrise in the northwest at 9:53am in December.

If we just move to UTC+0 sunrise in Donegal remains 8:53am and we just have an impact in the summer when it doesn't really make all that much difference anyway.

The UK dropping BST just means they drop to an hour shorter in summer. It's actually more sane.

Daylight saving time was largely there in the UK to facilitate longer summer time industrial days in Britian and harvesting etc ...

I'd argue that moving Ireland to year round UTC+1 isn't very practical and might even have mental health issues as you'd be getting into weird dark mornings with the sunrise happening after you got to work / school. We've enough problems with depression here without adopting policies that might make SAD (seasonally affected disorder) even more pronounced.

If we drop daylight saving time, we would need to drop to GMT not IST. We are way too far west to be on CET and being this far north makes the impact far more extreme than say for Spain and even Portugal is on UTC too.

It would also be relatively handy for our interactions with the US eastern time zone in particular. We'd only be 4h apart for their daylight savings time period when they are UTC-4 and the same UTC-5 hours in winter.

I just think we need to be carful we only move time zone for purely practical reasons, not political or symbolic.

Riskymove · 05-09-2018 9:58am

EdgeCase wrote: »

The result of that would be Irish time on CET and British time permanently on GMT. Ireland being on the same time as most of continental Europe and no longer coordinated with the UK.

while a formal proposal has yet to appear the suggestion is that most were in favour of "retaining the summertime arrangements"

That would suggest to me that Ireland would remain one hour behind France as is currently the case. However we have to await the final version

Bit cynical · 05-09-2018 8:07pm

If the proposal goes ahead, Ireland would likely vote for it while seeking a derrogation for itself. I think the derrogation would be successful as it doesn't really affect other countries in Europe. The derrogation could then be traded at a later date as needed.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 05-09-2018 8:10pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

Technically speaking, Irish Standard Time is UTC+1, we are on daylight saving time when the clock goes back.

The UK is standardised on UTC+0 "GMT"
BST is British Summer Time, not "standard time".

IST means Irish Standard Time, not "summer time".

While the majority of the continent is on UTC+1 - Central European Time CET.

Both the UK and European countries move to a +1 offset for summer time.
Ireland technically moves to a -1 offset from UTC+1 for winter time.

So in practical terms were on the same time as the UK due to the opposite offset.

If Ireland were to default to Irish Standard Time / Am Caighdeánach Éireannach IST without an offset, we are then on UTC+1 the same as France.

So basically, we would be no longer putting the clock back while everyone else wools stop putting the clock forward.

The result of that would be Irish time on CET and British time permanently on GMT. Ireland being on the same time as most of continental Europe and no longer coordinated with the UK.

You'd have to weigh up whether it would make more sense to move Ireland to UTC+0 and remain in sync with the UK. It's possible UTC+1 all year here is too far east for us from the point of view of daylight in the morning. You're looking at sunrise in the northwest at 9:53am in December.

If we just move to UTC+0 sunrise in Donegal remains 8:53am and we just have an impact in the summer when it doesn't really make all that much difference anyway.

The UK dropping BST just means they drop to an hour shorter in summer. It's actually more sane.

Daylight saving time was largely there in the UK to facilitate longer summer time industrial days in Britian and harvesting etc ...

I'd argue that moving Ireland to year round UTC+1 isn't very practical and might even have mental health issues as you'd be getting into weird dark mornings with the sunrise happening after you got to work / school. We've enough problems with depression here without adopting policies that might make SAD (seasonally affected disorder) even more pronounced.

If we drop daylight saving time, we would need to drop to GMT not IST. We are way too far west to be on CET and being this far north makes the impact far more extreme than say for Spain and even Portugal is on UTC too.

It would also be relatively handy for our interactions with the US eastern time zone in particular. We'd only be 4h apart for their daylight savings time period when they are UTC-4 and the same UTC-5 hours in winter.

I just think we need to be carful we only move time zone for purely practical reasons, not political or symbolic.

Screw Donegal. Get up later in jan.

We need summer time. It’s one of the best attributes of the Irish summer.

Gallee · 08-09-2018 2:56am

Am I correct in saying that the abolition of DST means sunset is an hour earlier in Summer? And real dark mornings in Winter to have extra brightness in the winter evenings also? Hard time getting my head around it!! Surely longer Summer nights for kids etc and enjoying the Summer our doors is better?

hatrickpatrick · 08-09-2018 3:32am

This is one of those areas in which, IMO, the EU is massively overstepping its purpose by having any authority here at all. It should be up to each nation state to decide on issues like this.

Andy From Sligo · 08-09-2018 12:29pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is one of those areas in which, IMO, the EU is massively overstepping its purpose by having any authority here at all. It should be up to each nation state to decide on issues like this.

yep - if they carry on we could find ourselves having eirexit ....

dxhound2005 · 08-09-2018 12:56pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is one of those areas in which, IMO, the EU is massively overstepping its purpose by having any authority here at all. It should be up to each nation state to decide on issues like this.

It's a bit late in the day to be worrying about loss of authority for national states. They all agreed the current arrangement a long time ago.

The first Summertime Directive that entered into force in 1981 laid down a common date for the beginning of the summer-time period only. Successive Directives laid down a common date for the beginning, i.e. the last Sunday in March, and two dates for the end: one on the last Sunday in September applied by the continental Member States and the other on the fourth Sunday in October for the United Kingdom and Ireland. This situation continued until the adoption of the seventh Directive in 1994, which for the first time provided a common end date, i.e. the last Sunday in October, from 1996 onwards. This Directive brought about a unified calendar 16 years after the adoption of the first Directive. Lastly, the present Directive dating from 2001 extends the provisions of the Directive for an unlimited period.

In 2007, the European Commission presented a report that underlined the importance of maintaining the harmonised timetable to ensure proper functioning of the internal market, which is the main objective of the Directive.

The consultation about whether to change seems to me to be an eminently democratic process.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/2018-summertime-arrangements_en

08-09-2018 1:15pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's a bit late in the day to be worrying about loss of authority for national states. They all agreed the current arrangement a long time ago.

The first Summertime Directive that entered into force in 1981 laid down a common date for the beginning of the summer-time period only. Successive Directives laid down a common date for the beginning, i.e. the last Sunday in March, and two dates for the end: one on the last Sunday in September applied by the continental Member States and the other on the fourth Sunday in October for the United Kingdom and Ireland. This situation continued until the adoption of the seventh Directive in 1994, which for the first time provided a common end date, i.e. the last Sunday in October, from 1996 onwards. This Directive brought about a unified calendar 16 years after the adoption of the first Directive. Lastly, the present Directive dating from 2001 extends the provisions of the Directive for an unlimited period.

In 2007, the European Commission presented a report that underlined the importance of maintaining the harmonised timetable to ensure proper functioning of the internal market, which is the main objective of the Directive.

The consultation about whether to change seems to me to be an eminently democratic process.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/2018-summertime-arrangements_en

Thank you. Again, the instinctive reaction of Europhobes is to scream "lack of democracy". "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" etc (before they, without irony, advocate a system with an unelected House of Lords, unelected, Eton-educated civil servants, an unelected oligarchic British media and so much else) but once again this is far from the reality. It's just a pity that otherwise intelligent Irish posters are finally succumbing to these Europhobic propaganda soundbites from the British rightwing which has poisoned every discussion related to the EU.

08-09-2018 1:21pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yep - if they carry on we could find ourselves having eirexit ....

Éirexit = back at the mercy of Britain again. I can't imagine many Irish people wanting to throw our people back under that bus once again.

Éirexiters, the new "Unionists".

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-09-2018 1:36pm

Gallee wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that the abolition of DST means sunset is an hour earlier in Summer? And real dark mornings in Winter to have extra brightness in the winter evenings also? Hard time getting my head around it!! Surely longer Summer nights for kids etc and enjoying the Summer our doors is better?

No.

They are keeping summertime. That’s the proposal.

GarIT · 08-09-2018 6:54pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yep - if they carry on we could find ourselves having eirexit ....

I'd vote for abolishing Ireland and making the EU a country long before I'd consider voting to leave and I hope a good few people would feel the same.

Nobody with two brain cells would vote to leave over something arbitrary like the time changing.

cml387 · 08-09-2018 7:07pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No.

They are keeping summertime. That’s the proposal.

Was done before. Between 1968 and 1971 we kept GMT+1.

Andy From Sligo · 08-09-2018 9:28pm

GarIT wrote: »

I'd vote for abolishing Ireland and making the EU a country long before I'd consider voting to leave and I hope a good few people would feel the same.

Nobody with two brain cells would vote to leave over something arbitrary like the time changing.

no, but it could be a factor with a lot of people if EU keep imposing more things ...

super_furry · 08-09-2018 9:41pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is one of those areas in which, IMO, the EU is massively overstepping its purpose by having any authority here at all. It should be up to each nation state to decide on issues like this.

That's exactly what is happening. The EU have accepted the proposal and now it's up to each member state to go off and ratify it to see if it will be passed into law.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clocks-daylight-savings-over-4225815-Sep2018/

"First it will go through the European Parliament – then it will be sent to each individual member state to vote on."

dxhound2005 · 08-09-2018 9:45pm

super_furry wrote: »

That's exactly what is happening. The EU have accepted the proposal and now it's up to each member state to go off and ratify it to see if it will be passed into law.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clocks-daylight-savings-over-4225815-Sep2018/

"First it will go through the European Parliament – then it will be sent to each individual member state to vote on."

We will be forced to vote twice. Once before the clocks change, and a second time after they change.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-09-2018 9:49pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

no, but it could be a factor with a lot of people if EU keep imposing more things ...

But they are imposing nothing in this regard. Each country will make its own decision. But that won't stop people maintaining the falsehood that it is being imposed.

EU to recommend abolishing DST

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