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Help: New Development with Mgt Company? (Newcastle,Co Dublin)

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    #32
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Our development is a flat budget split based on size rather than type of unit. But I know that the one after us split fees per unit type and houses are paying circa 400 euro. That includes bins.

    You're better off paying 400 a year with a management company where the 400 can be legally enforced than asking houses to pay 200 voluntarily and collecting half if you're lucky. It makes for very bad blood with neighbours when someone refuses to pay residents association fees. When an agent handles it it is not personal. I'm a director of our management company and they've had to take some owners to court for fees, the agent handles it. It's not that the guy 5 doors down knows that I'm the one who signed the documents with the solicitor to seek the judgement.

    Bear in mind that the developer will be liable for the costs involved to establish the company. And as I've previously mentioned, the Council is unlikely to take over landscaping and other elements so there will still be a cost for owners beyond taking in charge.


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    #33
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭ec18


    having bought in one of pavement homes estates, you'll be left in limbo with them saying the council will take it over and maintain the common areas and the council saying they haven't. Word of advice make sure everything is ship shape before you close the deal, they are a nightmare to get back to fix anything. we closed after they said they'd fix some stuff after closing more fool us and some of out neighbours


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    #34
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,899 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    kippy wrote: »
    Management companies and all of the BS around them are the one of the many failures of housing policy in the past two decades, particularly when you:
    1. Pay a housing tax.
    2. The developer paid significant fees to the council on building etc.
    The whole are is a disaster if you ask me and mainly because of the overhead costs.

    In a previous estate, of 20 odd semi and terraced houses we would have paid about 600,per annum which covered minimal grass cutting, and feck all else, mostly admin, insurance and ESB for lights. External house maintenance to a point was covered but painting usually a bigger amount of money every five years. The place hadn't been taken in charge and the developer was long outta business.
    Where we are now there's no management company as the council have taken the shared areas, lights etc in charge but we pay 150 or so a year into fund grass cutting, tree maintenance, flower planting etc on a much bigger scale than last estate with about 30 detached houses.
    So I think a mix is a good option, council take in charge but residents manage most of the maintenance.
    I know places with apartments and bigger mixed estates have much higher fees as well as bills with lifts, on site sewerage systems etc often having to be paid for by residents.

    Anyway, if you are going in with your eyes open( you have been told there is a management fee/structue) don't assume it's a short term thing.

    You had a crap Management company that doesn't mean that all management companies are bad. I'm paying a bit less that €600 for an apartment which hasn't changed that much in >10 years. I've my own front door and bought in a place with no gates, lifts or underground car park. The place is kept spotless, painted every few years and several other big projects done.

    There's a big field in front of my apartment of which half is ours the other half is supposed to be looked after by the council. Our half is cut weekly the other part annually and they leave the long grass in the field when it's cut. Walking past the council maintained estates nearby and they are full of rotten leaves, there's no leaves in our development.


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    #35
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,408 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You had a crap Management company that doesn't mean that all management companies are bad. I'm paying a bit less that €600 for an apartment which hasn't changed that much in >10 years. I've my own front door and bought in a place with no gates, lifts or underground car park. The place is kept spotless, painted every few years and several other big projects done.

    There's a big field in front of my apartment of which half is ours the other half is supposed to be looked after by the council. Our half is cut weekly the other part annually and they leave the long grass in the field when it's cut. Walking past the council maintained estates nearby and they are full of rotten leaves, there's no leaves in our development.
    How many units are in your management company?
    The companies with the smaller number of Units are going to have to spread the cost of the management agent and indeed all costs over a smaller amount of units which pro-rata means a larger cost per unit.
    I didn't say it was a crap management company, just that the whole concept is extremely flawed and yes, I didn't think there was that much value for money in it,when you looked at the amount of grass to cut which was really the only visible side to it. In fairness, I've heard of estates with management companies that were paying more for less. Again, it is down to the people involved but the services of a management agent are pretty much required no matter what.


    You may also find an unexpected surprise if you are ever to have to sell your apartment or any property that involves a management company.
    I think it may depend on the management agent involved, but essentially the potential buyers solicitor will request all of the legal documentation and accounts from your solicitor which you will need to get from the Management agent. Can vary in cost form zero to four or five hundred euro, based on anecdotal stories I have heard.

    If you are in a house in an estate with houses, I don't see the reasoning for them, particularily now when you have a household tax annually, as well as the initial money the developer would have paid the councils as part of the development processes. In apartments with lots of shared internal areas and/or lifts etc perhaps there is reason for them.


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    #36
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,899 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    kippy wrote: »
    How many units are in your management company?
    The companies with the smaller number of Units are going to have to spread the cost of the management agent and indeed all costs over a smaller amount of units which pro-rata means a larger cost per unit.
    I didn't say it was a crap management company, just that the whole concept is extremely flawed and yes, I didn't think there was that much value for money in it,when you looked at the amount of grass to cut which was really the only visible side to it. In fairness, I've heard of estates with management companies that were paying more for less. Again, it is down to the people involved but the services of a management agent are pretty much required no matter what.


    You may also find an unexpected surprise if you are ever to have to sell your apartment or any property that involves a management company.
    I think it may depend on the management agent involved, but essentially the potential buyers solicitor will request all of the legal documentation and accounts from your solicitor which you will need to get from the Management agent. Can vary in cost form zero to four or five hundred euro, based on anecdotal stories I have heard.

    If you are in a house in an estate with houses, I don't see the reasoning for them, particularily now when you have a household tax annually, as well as the initial money the developer would have paid the councils as part of the development processes. In apartments with lots of shared internal areas and/or lifts etc perhaps there is reason for them.

    There's a few hundred units. Didn't think about the high fixed costs for an OMC so I suppose the smaller developments would require a bigger service charge.


    The majority of councils are under funded and barely maintain their areas, they never cut the grass outside of people's houses and maybe cut green areas once or twice a year. How many people in council maintained estates are paying for grass cutting? And how do they know that they are getting good value for the money they are paying to a completely unregulated organisation taking in substantial amounts in some estates? At least an OMC has to produce accounts and have an AGM, with the ability to call an EGM if necessary.


    Dublin's local property tax is used to subsidise other counties. It won't be long before it goes the same way as motor tax, which was supposed to fund local councils, and be taken by general government to be replaced by another tax to fund local councils while we still pay the LPT.


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    #37
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Seems like a very small number of homes to justify a management company?

    Ive heard good and bad tbh. The good being they maintained really well, the bad, they did feck all and still hounded residents for money. Took years to get them out.

    However the local authorities wont do any estate maintaining anymore. When the builder signs off the council will if your lucky cut the grass once a year.

    I wouldn't be the biggest fan of MC because I think often you over pay however often with a residents association people dont pay up and you end up not being able to fund the estate.

    Whatever you do I would really pay attention to details.


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    #38
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,408 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    jrosen wrote: »
    Seems like a very small number of homes to justify a management company?

    Ive heard good and bad tbh. The good being they maintained really well, the bad, they did feck all and still hounded residents for money. Took years to get them out.

    However the local authorities wont do any estate maintaining anymore. When the builder signs off the council will if your lucky cut the grass once a year.

    I wouldn't be the biggest fan of MC because I think often you over pay however often with a residents association people dont pay up and you end up not being able to fund the estate.

    Whatever you do I would really pay attention to details.
    It's important to realise that the Management Company IS the owners (or a subgroup of the owners) essentially composed of an elected board made up of owners and usually with the services of a management agent that are the only paid people involved in the company itself.
    So the THEM you are referring to is the original developer I assume or maybe its the agent?
    As I said early, the effectiveness of whatever is in place, depends very much on the people running it and/or the residents themselves.


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    #39
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    kippy wrote: »
    It's important to realise that the Management Company IS the owners (or a subgroup of the owners) essentially composed of an elected board made up of owners and usually with the services of a management agent that are the only paid people involved in the company itself.
    So the THEM you are referring to is the original developer I assume or maybe its the agent?
    As I said early, the effectiveness of whatever is in place, depends very much on the people running it and/or the residents themselves.

    Sorry I’ve lived in 2 homes with managements companies and both were private companies. There was never a board that included residents. The residents paid for the service.


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    #40
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,408 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    jrosen wrote: »
    Sorry I’ve lived in 2 homes with managements companies and both were private companies. There was never a board that included residents. The residents paid for the service.

    Doesn't sound like an OMC then.
    An OMC has directors that are residents generally.
    I can't fathom a situation where the property owners don't control some aspect of the management company.


    Edit: apologies to the OP..gone off topic.
    As you can see, it can be a messy and complex area....


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    #41
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    jrosen wrote: »
    Sorry I’ve lived in 2 homes with managements companies and both were private companies. There was never a board that included residents. The residents paid for the service.

    Almost every private development has an OMC. Owners Management Company.

    The OMC may appoint a managing agent to run the day-to-day operations.

    The board of the OMC comprises of owners appointed by vote of the owners


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    #42
    Tom_Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Tom_Walsh


    kippy wrote: »
    Same difference really. Last place I was in, very small estate 18 or 20 houses, very little greenery. 600 odd per year and had been going up.
    Once you have an agent involved you are probably looking at a fee of no less than 2k per annum (which is roughly what our estate were paying)
    Granted apartment blocks can be significantly lower cost per unit paid to agent but generally more costs for stuff like lifts, shared fire and security equipment etc.

    Yeah like it seems for housing estate with only homes it's likely going to be circa 600e PA rather than the apartment blocks which are more like 1000e+ PA.

    Suppose it's just something we didn't think about 600e PA over term of the mortgage is 21,000E on top of the price for the house. And the stress of potentially being a director or the council not wanting to take charge due to major defaults by the builder in the estate. Thats what scares me. Thanks for the response.


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    #43
    Tom_Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Tom_Walsh


    Caranica wrote: »
    Our development is a flat budget split based on size rather than type of unit. But I know that the one after us split fees per unit type and houses are paying circa 400 euro. That includes bins.

    You're better off paying 400 a year with a management company where the 400 can be legally enforced than asking houses to pay 200 voluntarily and collecting half if you're lucky. It makes for very bad blood with neighbours when someone refuses to pay residents association fees. When an agent handles it it is not personal. I'm a director of our management company and they've had to take some owners to court for fees, the agent handles it. It's not that the guy 5 doors down knows that I'm the one who signed the documents with the solicitor to seek the judgement.

    Bear in mind that the developer will be liable for the costs involved to establish the company. And as I've previously mentioned, the Council is unlikely to take over landscaping and other elements so there will still be a cost for owners beyond taking in charge.

    Good points too. I suppose its matter of preference. Me personally i'd rather no OMC and just the builder be liable for roads, footpaths, green areas etc until council take charge. Then have a residents associates where you pay 200e or something per annum towards making the estate look nice. Whereas others like the management company idea where fees are enforceable etc. Thanks for the post.


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    #44
    Tom_Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Tom_Walsh


    ec18 wrote: »
    having bought in one of pavement homes estates, you'll be left in limbo with them saying the council will take it over and maintain the common areas and the council saying they haven't. Word of advice make sure everything is ship shape before you close the deal, they are a nightmare to get back to fix anything. we closed after they said they'd fix some stuff after closing more fool us and some of out neighbours

    This is very interesting. Because we couldn't not find much on Pavement homes themselves. It says building for over 40 years but the website only had one other development -Market Square in Newcastle. I spotted on another ad on daft they have build homes in Rathcoole and Kill but nothing on their site. Not even contact info. They also have some strange conditions in contracts like if the windows are scratched we cannot delay closing and they will furnish an undertaking to fix them at a later date.....but it sounds like we could be chasing them for a while if we signed contracts on their promise! How did you find the build itself? They look lovely from outside. Kitchens didn't seem to have much counter space etc? But overall build looked good? Thank you really good to hear from someone who bough from pavement homes before.


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    #45
    irlrobins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭irlrobins


    Tom_Walsh wrote: »
    Suppose it's just something we didn't think about 600e PA over term of the mortgage is 21,000E on top of the price for the house.

    You're going to have many additional costs associated with running a home over the years, many will be even higher figures, so don't get too hung up on it.


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    #46
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,555 ✭✭✭dubrov


    irlrobins wrote: »
    You're going to have many additional costs associated with running a home over the years, many will be even higher figures, so don't get too hung up on it.

    In fairness, it should be factored in. You could potentially have the same house for sale around the corner with no management fee.

    Of course you do get some value for your management fee so factoring in admin costs and lack of incentive to shop around, I'd say about 50% is dead money.


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    #47
    Valresnick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭Valresnick


    Wouldn’t mind a management company around our estate. We see DCC once or twice a year if we are lucky and they simple strim the crap out of everything including all the rubbish and plastics in the hedges and then shag off leaving the place in an absolute tipp.


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    #48
    Tom_Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Tom_Walsh


    irlrobins wrote: »
    You're going to have many additional costs associated with running a home over the years, many will be even higher figures, so don't get too hung up on it.

    This point is exactly why we don't want a management company. It's an additional cost we could do without. Like you said there will be plenty of other things we need to spend the money on. I will leave the street lighting and insurance for the area along with upkeep of roads etc to the builder/council if possible.


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    #49
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Personally I'd prefer a development with a management company to keep things maintained.

    To each their own.


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    #50
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,555 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Graham wrote: »
    Personally I'd prefer a development with a management company to keep things maintained.

    To each their own.

    I guess that's an advantage of buying into an older estate. You can see if things are maintained without a management company before you buy.
    If not, it is usually a warning to stay clear.


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    #51
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    i think you need to figure out if the CoCo are ever taking it in charge, id suggest they probably arent. I live in a similar sized estate and part of the planning was that there would be an OMC set up and the common areas wouldnt be taken in charge, we have our bins managed centrally (with a seperate shed with large bins rather than everyone having bins line up outside their house) some electricity, some insurances, landscaping and then the fee for the mgt co that we have appointed as well.

    The biggest costs are a prof mgt co circa 3.5k per annum (you dont have to do it, but you are relying on a volunteer from the residents), audit 1.5k per annum, landscaping 4.5k and bins circa 4k that alone spread over 20 houses is 675, there are other smaller costs so ours is generally 1k per annum. And we have done a lot of extra landscaping ourselves as residents aswell.

    Co Co not taking it in charge isnt any reflection on the build quality, its just not nearly as common as it was, especially on smaller infill sites.


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    #52
    Tom_Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Tom_Walsh


    dubrov wrote: »
    I guess that's an advantage of buying into an older estate. You can see if things are maintained without a management company before you buy.
    If not, it is usually a warning to stay clear.

    Yes great point my parents bought in Naas in a lovely estate with big green area and nice landscaping. Bought 25 years ago app and builder looked after estate until council took charge. Something like that is ideal in my eyes, suppose its all part of the learning process in buying a house! Thanks


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    #53
    Tom_Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Tom_Walsh


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i think you need to figure out if the CoCo are ever taking it in charge, id suggest they probably arent. I live in a similar sized estate and part of the planning was that there would be an OMC set up and the common areas wouldnt be taken in charge, we have our bins managed centrally (with a seperate shed with large bins rather than everyone having bins line up outside their house) some electricity, some insurances, landscaping and then the fee for the mgt co that we have appointed as well.

    The biggest costs are a prof mgt co circa 3.5k per annum (you dont have to do it, but you are relying on a volunteer from the residents), audit 1.5k per annum, landscaping 4.5k and bins circa 4k that alone spread over 20 houses is 675, there are other smaller costs so ours is generally 1k per annum. And we have done a lot of extra landscaping ourselves as residents aswell.

    Co Co not taking it in charge isnt any reflection on the build quality, its just not nearly as common as it was, especially on smaller infill sites.

    Yes its actually not in the planning that a mangement company is required. The builder has decided this themselves that one must be set up. If it was in planning permission i would not mind as much. Thats a great breakdown of potential costs. Is the insurance you pay like public liability insurance? Say if someone falls over in the estate? And do you pay for the electricity for the street lights? I like the idea of bins being lined up outside the houses in fairness. The reason i said Co Council not taking in charge is to my knowledge they would only take charge of the estate after they have an engineer/surveyor come out to the estate to inspect same and the quality of the roads, footpaths, drainage, common areas etc. I could be wrong. Thanks again very insightful


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    #54
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Tom_Walsh wrote: »
    Yes its actually not in the planning that a mangement company is required. The builder has decided this themselves that one must be set up. If it was in planning permission i would not mind as much. Thats a great breakdown of potential costs. Is the insurance you pay like public liability insurance? Say if someone falls over in the estate? And do you pay for the electricity for the street lights? I like the idea of bins being lined up outside the houses in fairness. The reason i said Co Council not taking in charge is to my knowledge they would only take charge of the estate after they have an engineer/surveyor come out to the estate to inspect same and the quality of the roads, footpaths, drainage, common areas etc. I could be wrong. Thanks again very insightful

    id ask the agent or the builder if you can is the council taking the estate in charge in the future, thats the easiest way to find out.

    Yes the insurance is public liability and also insurance for the residents who act as directors. We pay the street light electricty and maintenance.


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    #55
    SwimClub
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    I just assumed this was a scam by the builders, I'd never buy into a place with a maintenance fee, the other issue with new builds is lack of garden and chance of being overlooked by apartments in phase N. The people on here for maintenance fees are surely builders.


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    #56
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    SwimClub wrote: »
    I just assumed this was a scam by the builders, I'd never buy into a place with a maintenance fee, the other issue with new builds is lack of garden and chance of being overlooked by apartments in phase N. The people on here for maintenance fees are surely builders.

    Absolute nonsense. I'm a director in a managed development. An owner occupier who has no connection to any builder. I just care enough about my investment and my development to have gotten involved to protect the interests of all owners in the development.


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    #57
    SwimClub
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    Caranica wrote: »
    Absolute nonsense. I'm a director in a managed development. An owner occupier who has no connection to any builder. I just care enough about my investment and my development to have gotten involved to protect the interests of all owners in the development.


    And none of these are set up by builders as an ongoing stream of cash for themselves. They are so noble that they too want to "protect the interests of all owners in the development" even after they've sold the properties. Such a virtuous lobby in Ireland.


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    #58
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    SwimClub wrote: »
    And none of these are set up by builders as an ongoing stream of cash for themselves. They are so noble that they too want to "protect the interests of all owners in the development" even after they've sold the properties. Such a virtuous lobby in Ireland.

    Our builders moved out when all the properties were sold, the builders don't get the fees, never did. The management company is independent of the developers and ours had an independent management agent from Day 1. Sounds to me like you need to do a little reading as you don't know what you're talking about.


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    #59
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    SwimClub wrote: »
    I just assumed this was a scam by the builders, I'd never buy into a place with a maintenance fee, the other issue with new builds is lack of garden and chance of being overlooked by apartments in phase N. The people on here for maintenance fees are surely builders.

    You would be wrong.

    Each development has an Owners Management Company (OMC). The builder is required to setup the OMC for the development ready for transfer to the owners.

    The OMC is owned by the homeowners, one home = 1 share / 1vote.

    The builders don't set the fees. The builders don't get the fees. The OMC does.

    Each OMC appoints its own directors and sets its own fees.


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    #60
    SwimClub
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    So what has changed versus the majority of older houses that don't have a service charge?
    You get to live in an area with generic tidy landscaping policed by busybody neighbours with too much time on their hands and pay over 1k per annum for the privilege. No thank you!


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    #61
    SwimClub
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    Or you are in a development with mixed apartments and houses and are subsidising the fees for their lifts etc.


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