Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

Markcheese · 10-04-2020 12:28pm

Isn't the advantage of the vantool system that it's "just a bus " if a rubber wheel guided tram follows a fixed route , it will have to run on a concrete "runway /track way " or it'll rut the surface ...
If you have to install a concrete track way and the guide rail for the length of the route then just put in a regular tram ...
The advantage of the trambus is it's flexibility though, if a following a guide rail (or wire) improves it's flexibility at a pinch point , (a junction ,or right turn ) or even ensures the vehicle is correctly lined up at a stop then that's a good thing ...

Sam Russell · 10-04-2020 3:42pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Isn't the advantage of the vantool system that it's "just a bus " if a rubber wheel guided tram follows a fixed route , it will have to run on a concrete "runway /track way " or it'll rut the surface ...
If you have to install a concrete track way and the guide rail for the length of the route then just put in a regular tram ...
The advantage of the trambus is it's flexibility though, if a following a guide rail (or wire) improves it's flexibility at a pinch point , (a junction ,or right turn ) or even ensures the vehicle is correctly lined up at a stop then that's a good thing ...

If the rut problem is a serious issue, the tambus could randomly take a different path as it trundled along. The ground rail is partly a guide but is also the return path for electric current. The road could be surfaced with concrete anyway if that is required. I am sure that it would not be a huge cost over tarmac.

It has the benefit that the ground rail takes no load so has no huge foundation and so can be quite cheap to lay, and if necessary, to move. I think it might be a good solution for Cork and other cities. Luas type tram systems are hugely expensive, and the tram bit is going to be more expensive than the trambus.

niloc1951 · 11-04-2020 12:09pm

One of the dissadvantages of a fixed rail system is the total loss of service on a route when an accident or breakdown occurs LIKE THIS which are all to common. A Trambus, whether self-powered, hybrid or powered from an overhead supply, can easilly detour around a blockage thus maintaining the scheduled services on the route.

marno21 · 11-04-2020 12:12pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

One of the dissadvantages of a fixed rail system is the total loss of service on a route when an accident or breakdown occurs LIKE THIS which are all to common. A Trambus, whether self-powered, hybrid or powered from an overhead supply, can easilly detour around a blockage thus maintaining the scheduled services on the route.

These are rare occurrences to be fair. A better solution would be higher fines and enforcement for behaviour which leads to accidents

Sam Russell · 11-04-2020 12:34pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

One of the dissadvantages of a fixed rail system is the total loss of service on a route when an accident or breakdown occurs LIKE THIS which are all to common. A Trambus, whether self-powered, hybrid or powered from an overhead supply, can easilly detour around a blockage thus maintaining the scheduled services on the route.

There are various configurations that would work. O/H power with battery backup would allow the trambus to pull pass obstructions. A fully battery trambus would need recharging which means downtime at some point. An electric powered trambus is zero pollution which is important for city centre operation.

But the trambus has a big advantage over Luas - it is cheaper to install - and presumable quicker to install. If it needs harder road surfaces, then that is no big issue - many roads are concrete anyway. Luas needs firm foundations that require services to be moved, which is not the case with the trambus.

.

donvito99 · 11-04-2020 12:58pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

But the trambus has a big advantage over Luas - it is cheaper to install - and presumable quicker to install. If it needs harder road surfaces, then that is no big issue - many roads are concrete anyway. Luas needs firm foundations that require services to be moved, which is not the case with the trambus.

.

Cheaper to install initially but likely more expensive overtime as you have to constantly repair and relay the service which is being battered everyday by buses. Poorer ride quality for this reason also.

If we had built a tram-bus (as many incl the Colm McCarthys and Sean Barretts of this world suggested back in the day) instead of Luas in 2004, how quickly would it have been abandoned and how much longer would it have taken to arrive at a more sensible Luas (or possibly a Metro) type solution?

I can understand the merits of a system like this for standalone, moderate-demand routes like an airport to a city centre with few stops in between. But their use on trunk, high demand commuter routes would be misguided IMO.

Sam Russell · 11-04-2020 1:52pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Cheaper to install initially but likely more expensive overtime as you have to constantly repair and relay the service which is being battered everyday by buses. Poorer ride quality for this reason also.

If we had built a tram-bus (as many incl the Colm McCarthys and Sean Barretts of this world suggested back in the day) instead of Luas in 2004, how quickly would it have been abandoned and how much longer would it have taken to arrive at a more sensible Luas (or possibly a Metro) type solution?

I can understand the merits of a system like this for standalone, moderate-demand routes like an airport to a city centre with few stops in between. But their use on trunk, high demand commuter routes would be misguided IMO.

If we install segregated bus lanes with high frequency (a bus every 2 mins), will this not suffer the same effect. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the trambus can be programmed to deviate from the same path to reduce this effect. Also, the surface can be concrete to reduce this effect also.

The single rail is not load bearing and in effect is merely an electric current return, so no special foundations are needed. This means installation is quick and cheap. The vehicles are probably the same cost, and could be similar to Luas trams. In fact, very similar to trolley buses, but using single O/H wires instead of twin O/H wires.

Markcheese · 11-04-2020 2:07pm

In an ideal world we'd be talking a high frequency route .. and cork is at the moment (and for the foreseeable future ) a small City.... So to my mind the important part is the route and stops , not the launch vehicle ..
So it to my mind it could be a single carriage bus,(with 2 or 3 doors,and a largely flat floor) ,that can pull up to designated ,correct height stops , and drive along a properly designated ,policed, road way ..
If it needs to be made self driving in future then grand ,
If multi carriage buses are needed in future then grand,
If they need to be hybrid or fully electric then grand ...

But to my mind it's the route....,frequency...stops/platforms and the ticketing before all else

Markcheese · 11-04-2020 2:14pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway

Not exactly what'd suit cork but ...
Interestingly,huge cost overruns the main contractor was involved a major legal dispute ... BAM , now where have I heard that name and story before ....

salmocab · 11-04-2020 3:37pm

Markcheese wrote: »

In an ideal world we'd be talking a high frequency route .. and cork is at the moment (and for the foreseeable future ) a small City.... So to my mind the important part is the route and stops , not the launch vehicle ..
So it to my mind it could be a single carriage bus,(with 2 or 3 doors,and a largely flat floor) ,that can pull up to designated ,correct height stops , and drive along a properly designated ,policed, road way ..
If it needs to be made self driving in future then grand ,
If multi carriage buses are needed in future then grand,
If they need to be hybrid or fully electric then grand ...

But to my mind it's the route....,frequency...stops/platforms and the ticketing before all else

This ‘if it needs to be upgraded in the future, grand’ thing is the last thing we should be doing in this country. I use the luas for work and it’s a great system but has some flaws especially with having needed upgrades and now at capacity because we didn’t do it right from the start. We should aspire to build the best we can for future generations to use not fix.

donvito99 · 11-04-2020 3:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If we install segregated bus lanes with high frequency (a bus every 2 mins), will this not suffer the same effect. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the trambus can be programmed to deviate from the same path to reduce this effect. Also, the surface can be concrete to reduce this effect also.

The single rail is not load bearing and in effect is merely an electric current return, so no special foundations are needed. This means installation is quick and cheap. The vehicles are probably the same cost, and could be similar to Luas trams. In fact, very similar to trolley buses, but using single O/H wires instead of twin O/H wires.

I don't think that's a sufficient solution though as ultimately you are presumably putting something in for the long haul? A tram/bus is going to cost more to run and maintain over its lifetime than a conventional tram system when you add up having to :

- resurface and repair the running way (I don't think there are all that many deviations that you can programme in) regularly
- replace vehicles more often and run more vehicles with more drivers in the first place to replicate the capacity of a tram (the Van Hool system carries about 150 pax per bus only). Also maintenance of a road vehicles more complicated chassis which comes in for more punishment is a headache
- it's never going to be as comfortable for passengers as a tram. I don't think this is a huge problem in Ireland where people inevitably have no choice, but it's worth noting and amounts to a cost to the passenger.

However, if you're not planning on moving all that many people (i.e. max 2k pph), and you don't expect demand to increase all that much and the system is going to be quite short (i.e. a couple of kilometres), then I think it is a good solution. I really don't know traffic in Cork all that well, but in Dublin I think this kind of system would be at moving people orbitally i.e. the Metro West route from Tallaght via a new bridge over the Liffey valley to Blanchardstown.

Sam Russell · 11-04-2020 4:12pm

donvito99 wrote: »

- resurface and repair the running way (I don't think there are all that many deviations that you can programme in) regularly
- replace vehicles more often and run more vehicles with more drivers in the first place to replicate the capacity of a tram (the Van Hool system carries about 150 pax per bus only). Also maintenance of a road vehicles more complicated chassis which comes in for more punishment is a headache
- it's never going to be as comfortable for passengers as a tram. I don't think this is a huge problem in Ireland where people inevitably have no choice, but it's worth noting and amounts to a cost to the passenger.

The deviation I am talking about is to reduce rutting by bustrams running exactly the same position in the road. I would envision each tram deviates from the exact position in a random fashion each time it runs - sometimes 5 cm to the left and sometimes 7 centimetres to the right. The roadway could be made of pre-cast concrete sections to speed construction and give a sound base for the trambus.

Why would maintenance be any worse than for a tram? The body would be similar and the suspension could be similar, but with ubber wheels. Both have electric drive. Trolley buses are used in Geneva - that would be a good place to look at for experience.

donvito99 · 11-04-2020 4:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The deviation I am talking about is to reduce rutting by bustrams running exactly the same position in the road. I would envision each tram deviates from the exact position in a random fashion each time it runs - sometimes 5 cm to the left and sometimes 7 centimetres to the right. The roadway could be made of pre-cast concrete sections to speed construction and give a sound base for the trambus.

But if you're going to the trouble of building a concrete running, why not go that little bit further at that point and install rails? That's the most expensive part of light rail, the trackbed.

Why would maintenance be any worse than for a tram? The body would be similar and the suspension could be similar, but with rubber wheels.

This isn't the case though, they're not similar at all. The chassis for a vehicle on a road has much more to do and needs much more TLC at more regular intervals than the bogie on a light rail vehicle. If they were similar, don't you think we'd have 55m long buses in operation? Wouldn't cities be abandoning existing systems and building trambus systems in lieu of new light rail systems if there was no penalty to building a trambus versus light rail?

Idbatterim · 11-04-2020 4:58pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the rut problem is a serious issue, the tambus could randomly take a different path as it trundled along. The ground rail is partly a guide but is also the return path for electric current. The road could be surfaced with concrete anyway if that is required. I am sure that it would not be a huge cost over tarmac.

It has the benefit that the ground rail takes no load so has no huge foundation and so can be quite cheap to lay, and if necessary, to move. I think it might be a good solution for Cork and other cities. Luas type tram systems are hugely expensive, and the tram bit is going to be more expensive than the trambus.

That's why I thought it could be good for cork. What's the saying ? The perfect being the enemy of the good often it isn't the choice between a good and very good solution here , they are so concerned with bean counting , it's the good option or none

Sam Russell · 11-04-2020 5:02pm

donvito99 wrote: »

But if you're going to the trouble of building a concrete running, why not go that little bit further at that point and install rails? That's the most expensive part of light rail, the trackbed.

This isn't the case though, they're not similar at all. The chassis for a vehicle on a road has much more to do and needs much more TLC at more regular intervals than the bogie on a light rail vehicle. If they were similar, don't you think we'd have 55m long buses in operation? Wouldn't cities be abandoning existing systems and building trambus systems in lieu of new light rail systems if there was no penalty to building a trambus versus light rail?

Luas is the only tram system with 55 m trams. Maybe we should ask why other cities run much shorter trams.

Most bus systems are diesel - and that limits everything about them. Most buses are old technology with little robotics or AI built into them. Most operators are very future averse. That is why there is little major advances outside China. They Chinese just do = without agonising as to why it cannot be done. They build cities easier than we build houses.

Garret FitzGerald said Luas should be built with an underground section as it would be unable to operate properly in the City Centre. Did they listen?

The trambus is electric not diesel and it need not be more bus than tram.

donvito99 · 11-04-2020 5:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Luas is the only tram system with 55 m trams. Maybe we should ask why other cities run much shorter trams.

It isn't though, Budapest and Sydney run vehicles as long or longer.

Most bus systems are diesel - and that limits everything about them.

Most buses are old technology with little robotics or AI built into them. Most operators are very future averse. That is why there is little major advances outside China. They Chinese just do = without agonising as to why it cannot be done. They build cities easier than we build houses.
...

The trambus is electric not diesel and it need not be more bus than tram.[/QUOTE]

It's not about where the power is coming from.

If you are looking to move a lot of people, you'll use a rail based solution as that is more efficient. If you are looking to move some people, a bus based solution is more efficient (all in).

This trambus doesn't know what it wants to be by definition. It is handicapped by running on a bus chassis and that is why planners have built tramways instead of guided buses despite that tech having been around for decades now.

Bringing it back to the thread at hand, applying a trambus to the proposed Cork Light Rail would be a mistake, just as applying a Luas on Dublin's Harcourt St and Broadstone alignments instead of a Metro was a mistake.

Carawaystick · 12-04-2020 11:57pm

marno21 wrote: »

These are rare occurrences to be fair. A better solution would be higher fines and enforcement for behaviour which leads to accidents

Its not just accidents and "deliberates" that block tram lines, the luas is delayed by parades, events, power outages and protests, in Dublin.
the busses are re-routed when these things happen.

I can't see trams getting up to Holyhill, or Summerhill, or even the airport, so bus only routes would be better.

As there is unlikely to be rail services to areas busses serve outside the city, bus only routes can use these also to allow quick and easy ways to get to the city from Carraigaline, Kinsale, West Cork, Glenmire, etc

niloc1951 · 13-04-2020 12:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are various configurations that would work. O/H power with battery backup would allow the trambus to pull pass obstructions. A fully battery trambus would need recharging which means downtime at some point. .

In Saville (Spain) the tram system is only part overhard power supply.
In the suburbs and at city centre stops the pantograph raises automatically to collect power and charge the onboard battery pack, but when travelling through city centre streets it runs on battery power alone.
The obvious advantage is the saving of cost and disruption related to the installation of overhard cables in the city centre.

donvito99 · 13-04-2020 12:52pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

.
The obvious advantage is the saving of cost and disruption related to the installation of overhard cables in the city centre.

Is the installation of overhead power infrastructure what causes the disruption and delay associated with these projects? I would have thought this was a pretty straightforward exercise, and that digging up city streets to build trackbed is the major issue.

niloc1951 · 13-04-2020 1:01pm

[QUOTE This trambus doesn't know what it wants to be by definition. It is handicapped by running on a bus chassis and that is why planners have built tramways instead of guided buses despite that tech having been around for decades now.
[/QUOTE]

Spot the difference apart from the rails Nimes Trambus Light Rail Tram

niloc1951 · 13-04-2020 1:07pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Is the installation of overhead power infrastructure what causes the disruption and delay associated with these projects? I would have thought this was a pretty straightforward exercise, and that digging up city streets to build trackbed is the major issue.

Agreed, but not installing overhard power cables in the city centre does save on the overall construction disruption and it also saves the on the visual polution of the cables. The lack of the overhead cabling in Saville is very noticable from an environmental point of view. SEE HERE
BTW the system in Saville is a light rail based system.

Sam Russell · 13-04-2020 1:27pm

Is the trambus just another version of the BRT that was proposed for Dublin?

From the Nimes pricing, it would appear to be 50% of the cast of the proposal they considered for a light rail version.

I see the Nimes system is run by Transdev.

donvito99 · 13-04-2020 1:53pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

This trambus doesn't know what it wants to be by definition. It is handicapped by running on a bus chassis and that is why planners have built tramways instead of guided buses despite that tech having been around for decades now.

Spot the difference apart from the rails Nimes Trambus Light Rail Tram

One carries about 150 people and the other carries twice as many at least.

You're comparing a system which carries 1.3m passengers a year to a system that carries 40+ million passengers a year? Apples and oranges.

donvito99 · 13-04-2020 2:03pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Agreed, but not installing overhard power cables in the city centre does save on the overall construction disruption and it also saves the on the visual polution of the cables. The lack of the overhead cabling in Saville is very noticable from an environmental point of view. SEE HERE
BTW the system in Saville is a light rail based system.

You'd be paying more for vehicles though. This elegant solution is not without cost and I wouldn't describe it as cost saving measure.

This would be a good solution for Cork though if there is an aversion to overhead power supply through the city's core.

TheChizler · 13-04-2020 2:29pm

donvito99 wrote: »

One carries about 150 people and the other carries twice as many at least.

You're comparing a system which carries 1.3m passengers a year to a system that carries 40+ million passengers a year? Apples and oranges.

Can Cork sustain a service that carries up to 300+ every few minutes? Even with all the projected developments what is the expected demand? I'd take frequency of smaller trams and reliability over capacity unless there's hard evidence for the capacity requirement.

niloc1951 · 13-04-2020 6:16pm

donvito99 wrote: »

One carries about 150 people and the other carries twice as many at least.

You're comparing a system which carries 1.3m passengers a year to a system that carries 40+ million passengers a year? Apples and oranges.

2016, population of Cork City = 125k, Nimes = 151k
The LUAS might carry 40+ million passengers a year but the population of the Dublin region is over 1.4m

The line T2 in Nimes, referred to in the link, is 11.5km and is projected to carry 28,000 passengers per day by June 2021 which is in the region of 10m per year.
While the LUAS might carry 40+ million passengers a year its combined routes represent over 40km.
Both figures are similar pro rata from passenger per km perspective.
Yes, apples and oranges, but Dublin and Cork are apples and oranges when it comes population size and spread and rapid transit solutions.
We should be looking at the solutions other similar sized orban areas have proven to be cost effective and not those relevent to high population / high density capitol cities.

BonnieSituation · 13-04-2020 6:41pm

It would be the guts of 250k if you weren't being strict about the city boundary, which we definitely should ignore in this case, even with the recent expansion.

donvito99 · 13-04-2020 6:47pm

I think the lesson in Ireland is that we build things that are almost immediately at capacity (Dublin Airport T2, the Luas, Lansdowne Rd etc). We should be expecting Cork to grow in population and in economic activity.

Whilst much more cost effective than light rail, I don't think the Mahon Point to Ballincollig alignment should be BRT. As we've seen with Luas, when you get around to replacing ad upgrading the system to meet the inevitable massive passenger demand, locals - who live nearby and only seem to use the service off peak - will object to the upgrade and accuse government of 'tearing up Cork's perfectly fine BRT system' or something along those lines.

Sam Russell · 13-04-2020 8:17pm

donvito99 wrote: »

I think the lesson in Ireland is that we build things that are almost immediately at capacity (Dublin Airport T2, the Luas, Lansdowne Rd etc). We should be expecting Cork to grow in population and in economic activity.

Whilst much more cost effective than light rail, I don't think the Mahon Point to Ballincollig alignment should be BRT. As we've seen with Luas, when you get around to replacing ad upgrading the system to meet the inevitable massive passenger demand, locals - who live nearby and only seem to use the service off peak - will object to the upgrade and accuse government of 'tearing up Cork's perfectly fine BRT system' or something along those lines.

But surely, the expansion does not have to be higher capacity of the one line, but build more lines to spread the load.

I am not familiar with Cork, but Dublin went with two Luas lines, and when they reached capacity, the made them longer to make them even more over capacity, and then ran them through a jammed city centre causing complete a jam up. A better solution would have been to branch the lines and have multiple routes possible.

A single line for Cork should be just a start, with plans for a complete network that gets people to where they want to go - quickly, with at most one transfer. The Dublin solution has turned out to be two lines that cross, but do not interconnect, so it is not possible to go from St Steven's Green to Heuston without a transfer requiring a walk (in the rain).

Electric power is quicker and cleaner, as well as quieter. Electric motors have very high initial torque that gives fast acceleration - ideal for a tram/trambus.

Carawaystick · 13-04-2020 11:48pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Is the installation of overhead power infrastructure what causes the disruption and delay associated with these projects? I would have thought this was a pretty straightforward exercise, and that digging up city streets to build trackbed is the major issue.

At a Public consultation for a bus solution in Swords, the engineers confirmed this, its the foundations for heavier trams or metro that cost the money and take the time

snotboogie · 14-04-2020 10:06am

niloc1951 wrote: »

2016, population of Cork City = 125k, Nimes = 151k
The LUAS might carry 40+ million passengers a year but the population of the Dublin region is over 1.4m

The line T2 in Nimes, referred to in the link, is 11.5km and is projected to carry 28,000 passengers per day by June 2021 which is in the region of 10m per year.
While the LUAS might carry 40+ million passengers a year its combined routes represent over 40km.
Both figures are similar pro rata from passenger per km perspective.
Yes, apples and oranges, but Dublin and Cork are apples and oranges when it comes population size and spread and rapid transit solutions.
We should be looking at the solutions other similar sized orban areas have proven to be cost effective and not those relevent to high population / high density capitol cities.

You are comparing a metro population (1.4 million) to an outdated City Council boundary population (125k). To emphasize how ridiculous the number is, about 30%-40% of the proposed tram line would be outside of the old city council boundaries you are using. The actual urban population of Cork was 210k in 2016.

ricimaki · 14-04-2020 1:59pm

This debate is essentially about whether Cork should get Bus-Rapid-Transit or Light-Rail-Transit.

When you look on Wikipedia, Europe has 8 countries with BRT lines, with the majority of them in France, which has 29 separate systems. Germany has a single BRT system

Comparatively, 25 European countries have LRT systems. France has 26 active systems, many of which are in cities which also have BRT lines.
Germany has >50 active tram networks currently.

Recent towns/cities such as Aubagne, with a population of ~50,000, chose LRT over BRT.

Whilst it's interesting debating the cost's of various systems, at the end of the day, very few European countries are implementing BRT systems. You can be sure they carried out detailed cost-benefit analysis, compared the 2 systems, went through public consultation etc. to come to this conclusion. I'm sure there are benefits to BRT, but there can't be that many...

As for cost of the systems, cost isn't the issue with public transport in Ireland. The lack of political will to do anything is the reason our transport is so bad. If it was enough of an issue for the general population, funding for tram's would be found. If BRT is chosen for cork, imagine how many politicians and media will complain about the millions being spent on a fancy bus...

salmocab · 14-04-2020 2:12pm

ricimaki wrote: »

As for cost of the systems, cost isn't the issue with public transport in Ireland. The lack of political will to do anything is the reason our transport is so bad. If it was enough of an issue for the general population, funding for tram's would be found. If BRT is chosen for cork, imagine how many politicians and media will complain about the millions being spent on a fancy bus...

I’d go further and say there would be uproar because Cork only got busses but Dublin gets a metro. I’ve long since felt that politicians use a Urban/Rural and Dublin/Rest of the country divide to their advantage whilst slyly actually pushing the agenda themselves.

niloc1951 · 14-04-2020 5:55pm

ricimaki wrote: »

This debate is essentially about whether Cork should get Bus-Rapid-Transit or Light-Rail-Transit.

When you look on Wikipedia, Europe has 8 countries with BRT lines, with the majority of them in France, which has 29 separate systems. Germany has a single BRT system

Comparatively, 25 European countries have LRT systems. France has 26 active systems, many of which are in cities which also have BRT lines.
Germany has >50 active tram networks currently.

Recent towns/cities such as Aubagne, with a population of ~50,000, chose LRT over BRT.

Whilst it's interesting debating the cost's of various systems, at the end of the day, very few European countries are implementing BRT systems. You can be sure they carried out detailed cost-benefit analysis, compared the 2 systems, went through public consultation etc. to come to this conclusion. I'm sure there are benefits to BRT, but there can't be that many...

As for cost of the systems, cost isn't the issue with public transport in Ireland. The lack of political will to do anything is the reason our transport is so bad. If it was enough of an issue for the general population, funding for tram's would be found. If BRT is chosen for cork, imagine how many politicians and media will complain about the millions being spent on a fancy bus...

Having travelled extensively in Europe many many of the cities with LRT are legacy systems from the early 20th. century which have been updated and extended to 21st. century standards, although many continue to operate 20th. century rolling stock. example

Markcheese · 14-04-2020 10:58pm

salmocab wrote: »

I’d go further and say there would be uproar because Cork only got busses but Dublin gets a metro. I’ve long since felt that politicians use a Urban/Rural and Dublin/Rest of the country divide to their advantage whilst slyly actually pushing the agenda themselves.

Your right , there would (will) be uproar .. mainly from the people who wouldn't use either brt or light rail , and it'll distort and delay the whole shebang to the detriment of those who actually would use public transport ...

salmocab · 15-04-2020 8:00am

Markcheese wrote: »

Your right , there would (will) be uproar .. mainly from the people who wouldn't use either brt or light rail , and it'll distort and delay the whole shebang to the detriment of those who actually would use public transport ...

Like I said earlier they should build something with a lot of redundancy in it, things like this need to be built with an eye on 50 years down the road and more. I don’t know Cork well enough to comment on the route but there is nothing surer than housing springing up along the line in increased densities.

niloc1951 · 15-04-2020 12:16pm

salmocab wrote: »

Like I said earlier they should build something with a lot of redundancy in it, things like this need to be built with an eye on 50 years down the road and more. I don’t know Cork well enough to comment on the route but there is nothing surer than housing springing up along the line in increased densities.

A mass transit system, either rail based or not, is not a fixed asset. In furure times if needs be its capacity can be increased by more frequent service and/or network extensions.
Unlike other fixed assets, like for example the four roundabouts on the N40, extending the capacity of a mass transit system does not require re-engineering/alterations of the original infrastructure.

salmocab · 15-04-2020 12:22pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

A mass transit system, either rail based or not, is not a fixed asset. In furure times if needs be its capacity can be increased by more frequent service and/or network extensions.
Unlike other fixed assets, like for example the four roundabouts on the N40, extending the capacity of a mass transit system does not require re-engineering/alterations of the original infrastructure.

Not sure what your driving at but what I meant by redundancy is the ability to increase numbers by having room for higher frequency or larger carriages/vehicles. Obviously this would also mean that extensions or splits could be incorporated relatively easily.

TheChizler · 15-04-2020 12:48pm

The only part of this worth planning for 50 years down the road is the route, I don't think it's likely any of the direct infrastructure put in now (read now as in 10 years from now) will still be in use in 50 years time. Tracks, and overhead lines might all need or have been replaced (or be irrelevant) by then. No point trying to predict the future beyond the next 20/30 or so years. We could spend years planning for the future and get it wrong anyway, in the meantime we need a sustainable transport solution sooner rather than later.

Rulmeq · 15-04-2020 12:53pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

A mass transit system, either rail based or not, is not a fixed asset. In furure times if needs be its capacity can be increased by more frequent service and/or network extensions.
Unlike other fixed assets, like for example the four roundabouts on the N40, extending the capacity of a mass transit system does not require re-engineering/alterations of the original infrastructure.

Except in Ireland, where you will be accused or "ripping up the green line" when you try and plan for future upgrades.

niloc1951 · 15-04-2020 6:26pm

Rulmeq wrote: »

Except in Ireland, where you will be accused or "ripping up the green line" when you try and plan for future upgrades.

I don't understand the point. There are many cities still using routes which were laid down over 100 years ago. What do you mean by upgrades, is it something different from maintenance and replacement of worn components by current technology.

donvito99 · 15-04-2020 6:30pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

I don't understand the point. There are many cities still using routes which were laid down over 100 years ago. What do you mean by upgrades, is it something different from maintenance and replacement of worn components by current technology.

Upgrades meaning modifying the line (platforms, crossings, depots, etc) to accommodate larger rolling stock that can run at a high frequency because the Luas has only gone 16 years and is at capacity.

marno21 · 24-04-2020 4:20pm

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/First-step-to-be-taken-on-200m-plan-to-improve-Corks-bus-service-3b08c640-9ad9-43cf-8ffc-bcd395771ca8-ds

NTA confirms procurement process for consultants for the light rail corridor started earlier this month.

marno21 · 07-08-2020 2:43pm

Jacobs appointed to identify route options and initial designs.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40028948.html

snotboogie · 07-08-2020 4:32pm

marno21 wrote: »

Jacobs appointed to identify route options and initial designs.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40028948.html

NTA chief executive, Anne Graham, said when the NTA met with the elected members of Cork City Council in recent weeks, it was clear that there was overwhelming support for the measures contained in CMATS.

“It was also clear to us that if the strategy is to remain a credible document in the eyes of people in Cork, it is essential that progress is made on the delivery of the key elements, sooner rather than later,” she said.

“That is why today’s announcement is significant, and we believe that it is a clear signal that implementation of the Strategy is now under way.”

Thats the strongest statement on the Cork Luas that i've ever seen from someone with actual clout on the matter.

marno21 · 07-08-2020 4:40pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Thats the strongest statement on the Cork Luas that i've ever seen from someone with actual clout on the matter.

The NTA now report to a pro-rail Minister for Transport of the Green Party, which is even more beneficial

Better than the last 4 years of the Shane Ross clownshow.

Curb Your Enthusiasm · 07-08-2020 4:46pm

This is good progress. Fingers crossed.

markodaly · 07-08-2020 5:11pm

There seems to be a lot of goodwill at the moment and if the money is there, it can be done, but I imagine there real issue will be the planning permission as there will be resident and local opposition to some sections of the road.
That as always is the biggest hurdle.

snotboogie · 07-08-2020 6:20pm

Dan Boyle throwing some water over our expectations:

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/1291755046481403909?s=19

AngryLips · 07-08-2020 6:36pm

marno21 wrote: »

The NTA now report to a pro-rail Minister for Transport of the Green Party, which is even more beneficial

Better than the last 4 years of the Shane Ross clownshow.

Pro-rail but anti-results IMO

Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

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