Covid-19 likely to be man made

WoollyRedHat · 16-09-2020 9:50am

I'll wait to hear from Yin.

Dampsquid · 16-09-2020 9:55am

Quote "she believed it was made in a lab"

Is that the proof we were all looking for?

paw patrol · 16-09-2020 10:27am

i#ve been saying this since march. the idea it came from a middle ages style animal/food market was beyond fanciful.

the magic market that was just down the road from the level 4 lab that holds all this type of stuff . If you believe the wet-market story you'd believe anything

tunguska · 16-09-2020 10:28am

This is eerily similar to Stephen King's The Stand.

splashuum · 16-09-2020 10:29am

paw patrol wrote: »

i#ve been saying this since march. the idea it came from a middle ages style animal/food market was beyond fanciful.

the magic market that was just down the road from the level 4 lab that holds all this type of stuff . If you believe the wet-market story you'd believe anything

Ditto. Previous posts suggesting same were sent to the "conspiracy" forum.
Laughable really :pac:

DangerScouse · 16-09-2020 10:33am

Wow. In fairness this is pretty explosive stuff.

I expect our free and unbiased media to ask the Chinese authorities the hard relevant questions and look for answers immediately given the effects this has had on our society, economy and health services here in the west, right?

Oh what's that look over there orange man bad.....

Smee_Again · 16-09-2020 10:43am

Thread title is misleading, the report doesn't show how the virus was man made.

It postulates how the virus could be made in a lab and details the steps that would be taken to do so.

It's interesting, but not a smoking gun.

DangerScouse · 16-09-2020 10:47am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Thread title is misleading, the report doesn't show how the virus was man made.

It postulates how the virus could be made in a lab and details the steps that would be taken to do so.

It's interesting, but not a smoking gun.

It's more than interesting. It shows the CCP have being telling porkies from the very start about the origins of the virus. If they lied about that what else did they lie about?

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 16-09-2020 10:50am

But... 5G

Smee_Again · 16-09-2020 10:57am

DangerScouse wrote: »

It's more than interesting. It shows the CCP have being telling porkies from the very start about the origins of the virus. If they lied about that what else did they lie about?

I can't comment on that, the paper is far too technical for me to properly understand it and I'd hazard a guess that the OP doesnt either judging by the misleading headline. Or maybe he does understand it and the thread title is intentionally misleading.

banie01 · 16-09-2020 11:02am

I'll wait to read the paper she and her colleagues publish.

There is a preponderance of opinion it's not manmade and if one considers the fact that the DNA sequence of Covid-19 is available since January and has been reviewed fairly thoroughly by multiple labs, uni's and researchers.
If it was a manmade virus, and if it could be lain at the feet of the CCP's Wuhan lab, it would be being shouted from the rooftops by every western government and researcher.

She will need to present fairly compelling evidence to overturn that consensus.
I watched her loose women interview and I just felt a little aghast that what is possibly the biggest story of the century, is being broken to many (not me, I've been aware of this for a while) but to the generally scientifically uninterested public.
On a daytime gossip show, something just doesn't add up.

There have been claims that Covid is lab originated since late Jan/Feb.
Good overviews from Forbes and a scientific paper here, strongly refute the lab origin theory.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/05/10/a-timeline-of-the-covid-19-wuhan-lab-origin-theory/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

If Dr Yan has evidence to refute that?
It will be apocalyptic, the release of biological weapons on the world to this extent however it occured would not likely pass without retribution.

I am reading the Scribd linked paper now in the OP now, will update with an opinion when I've read more than just the abstract.

peterofthebr · 16-09-2020 11:06am

i believe her twitter account was taken offline .. and also rumours that CPP is complating throwing a head to the world for covid ... by planning that Xi Jinping steps aside ..

banie01 · 16-09-2020 11:19am

The paper linked in the OP presents theoretical possibility of lab origin.
The claims are prefaces by "should" indeed the paper's title
"Unusual Features of the SARS-CoV-2 Genome Suggesting Sophisticated Laboratory Modification Rather Than Natural Evolution and Delineation of Its Probable Synthetic Route" itself isn't congruent with the specific claims Dr Yan has made to the media.

There's no evidence presented, it's theoretical exercise in how it could have been created, but contrary to the tone of much of the news reporting and indeed Dr Yan's claims to the media there is no smoking gun in the paper.

Now let me qualify that by saying my own background is statistical and regulatory.
I'm not a PhD nor am I currently involved in scientific work, actually am back to Uni again as a law student.
So my final opinion on the paper would be this.
It's a scientific paper, that goes to great lengths to actually preface it's hypothesis as possible, probable, could and should...

Where's the definitive article, the certainty?

16-09-2020 11:20am

paw patrol wrote: »

i#ve been saying this since march. the idea it came from a middle ages style animal/food market was beyond fanciful.

the magic market that was just down the road from the level 4 lab that holds all this type of stuff . If you believe the wet-market story you'd believe anything

From reading your posts over the past few months, you literally believe anything

DuffleBag · 16-09-2020 11:23am

Of all the sources you could use, you chose The Sun, and Loose Women talkshow...

Get Real · 16-09-2020 11:25am

The article says it could in theory be developed in a lab, and therefore (she believes) was created in a lab.

She has no evidence that it was or wasn't though.

Meanwhile, she boosts her own profile, and gets passage to the USA..

I'm not saying she's entirely wrong. But she's spouting a theory. She has no evidence either way that it was produced in a lab.

thebaz · 16-09-2020 11:36am

Whether this is true or not is unclear right now , shocking if it is.
But What I find totally unbelieveable are the statistics from China , the country where the virus originated, the largest country in the world , has the same number of cases as say Holland . Never mind ther military style lockdown , the virus would have run rampant throughout China in early days before ther lockdown as they would have been unaware of its existence , this did not happen except in Wuhan alone, and it has run rampant everywhere else in the world, not just in one city, that I find totally suspicious.

begbysback · 16-09-2020 11:38am

This doc is out a while and makes a strong case for what the doc is saying

silver2020 · 16-09-2020 11:39am

So the source is the worst possible british tabloid possible and a tabloid tv programme that probably takes its cue from the sun.

She has been welcomed into Trump's America, by Trump officials

Christ some people are phenomenally gullible and will actually believe this

lucernarian · 16-09-2020 11:41am

banie01 wrote: »

I'll wait to read the paper she and her colleagues publish.

There is a preponderance of opinion it's not manmade and if one considers the fact that the DNA sequence of Covid-19 is available since January and has been reviewed fairly thoroughly by multiple labs, uni's and researchers.
If it was a manmade virus, and if it could be lain at the feet of the CCP's Wuhan lab, it would be being shouted from the rooftops by every western government and researcher.

She will need to present fairly compelling evidence to overturn that consensus.
I watched her loose women interview and I just felt a little aghast that what is possibly the biggest story of the century, is being broken to many (not me, I've been aware of this for a while) but to the generally scientifically uninterested public.
On a daytime gossip show, something just doesn't add up.

There have been claims that Covid is lab originated since late Jan/Feb.
Good overviews from Forbes and a scientific paper here, strongly refute the lab origin theory.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/05/10/a-timeline-of-the-covid-19-wuhan-lab-origin-theory/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

If Dr Yan has evidence to refute that?
It will be apocalyptic, the release of biological weapons on the world to this extent however it occured would not likely pass without retribution.

I am reading the Scribd linked paper now in the OP now, will update with an opinion when I've read more than just the abstract.

The Anderson et al paper has a lot of flaws for something to be published in such a prestigious journal, and even engages in whataboutery when claiming the spike protein would be designed better if it were synthetic. This makes no sense for a bunch of reasons. They didn't bother discussing the possibility of chimeric insertion of this, rather than a de-novo sequence. The angle taken implies that it would be "created to infect" and not for any other reason. The protein, as is obviously apparent to all of humanity, is quite well able to bind to human receptors (in fact, it's the best) along with a bunch of other mammals.

It's also been previously asserted in previous controversial gain of function research with influenza that intentionally enhancing infectivity can actually backfire on its long term fitness, so the argument made in the paper is kinda spurious. They also ignore any discussion of chimeric research and unfortunate chimeric recombinants, for increased pathogenicity created e.g. for research purposes by some postdoc. The EcoHealth Alliance funded a controversial Nature paper in 2015 where a US lab and the WIV did exactly just that. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797993/#!po=78.0303

Edit: minor typo.

16-09-2020 11:48am

DuffleBag wrote: »

Of all the sources you could use, you chose The Sun, and Loose Women talkshow...

She went on Tucker Carlsson also and everyone knows he is fair and balanced

banie01 · 16-09-2020 11:53am

lucernarian wrote: »

The Anderson et al paper has a lot of flaws for something to be published in such a prestigious journal, and even engages in whataboutery when claiming the spike protein would be designed better if it were synthetic. This makes no sense for a bunch of reasons. They didn't bother discussing the possibility of chimeric insertion of this, rather than a de-novo sequence. The angle taken implies that it would be "created to infect" and not for any other reason. The protein, as is obviously apparent to all of humanity, is quite well able to bind to human receptors (in fact, it's the best) along with a bunch of other mammals.

It's also been previously asserted in previous controversial gain of function research with influenza that intentionally enhancing infectivity can actually backfire on its long term fitness, so the argument made in the paper is kinda spurious. They also ignore any discussion of chimeric research and unfortunate chimeric recombinants, for increased pathogenicity created e.g. for research purposes by some postdoc. The EcoHealth Alliance funded a controversial Nature paper in 2015 where a US lab and the WIV did exactly just that. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797993/#!po=78.0303

Edit: minor typo.

Thanks for that, I don't have the technical knowledge to compare and contrast the benefit of a De-novo creation of the protein spike versus a chimearic insertion.

My issue with the Dr Yan's paper isn't from a position of strong technical knowledge on my part, rather its quality and in what it goes to great pains to avoid making a definitive claim on.
I do believe that the way she is being presented in the media as a smoking is quite at odds with her paper assertion of a possibility rather than a certainty.

is_that_so · 16-09-2020 11:53am

tunguska wrote: »

This is eerily similar to Stephen King's The Stand.

So a lot of old crap?!

is_that_so · 16-09-2020 11:56am

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for that, I don't have the technical knowledge to compare and contrast the benefit of a De-novo creation of the protein spike versus a chimearic insertion.

My issue with the Dr Yan's paper isn't from a position of strong technical knowledge on my part, rather its quality and in what it goes to great pains to avoid making a definitive claim on.
I do believe that the way she is being presented in the media as a smoking is quite at odds with her paper assertion of a possibility rather than a certainty.

This is what happens with a whole lot of papers and research, they rapidly become fact. It's less about the science than the media's inability to report it properly.

looksee · 16-09-2020 12:02pm

I don't begin to understand the science in the paper. However I can read the rest of it and it seems to me that Dr Yan is doing exactly what scientists are supposed to do, she is putting out ideas and showing how they could work. She does not appear to have claimed that this is a definitive answer, just that there is something to be discussed - by scientists who understand what she is talking about. It must be very frustrating to put forward a theory and have all the illiterati jump on the bits they understand and arrange them to suit their narrative.

mikep · 16-09-2020 12:04pm

I expect she will be feted by the Trump administration the show the world that the "China Virus" was all a big plan by the Chinese to take over the world...
And only trump will save us all...

16-09-2020 12:05pm

is_that_so wrote: »

So a lot of old crap?!

Not being a molecular biologist, I cant comment on the science in the paper, however the associated language in the paper, and the commentary elsewhere is a bit like - "technically it is possible this happened, therefore it did"

dzsfah2xoynme9 · 16-09-2020 12:05pm

The Sun? Tucker Carlson?

Might as well have it written on the back door of a men's jacks cubicle..

paw patrol · 16-09-2020 12:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From reading your posts over the past few months, you literally believe anything

Bravo! :pac:

is_that_so · 16-09-2020 12:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not being a molecular biologist, I cant comment on the science in the paper, however the associated language in the paper, and the commentary elsewhere is a bit like - "technically it is possible this happened, therefore it did"

Indeed, we've been here a good few times on this particular theme. The billions of mutations in bats seem a far better target for therefore it did moment.

banie01 · 16-09-2020 12:09pm

is_that_so wrote: »

This is what happens with a whole lot of papers and research, they rapidly become fact. It's less about the science than the media's inability to report it properly.

Agreed, but Dr Yan's own claims in the media are far more strident and definite than the actual substance of her paper.

Reading the paper, its a theoretical possibility.
Watching her media spin, its a definitive certainty.

Its poor reporting, compounded by a poor paper with no actual conclusions or evidence.

Padre_Pio · 16-09-2020 12:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not being a molecular biologist, I cant comment on the science in the paper, however the associated language in the paper, and the commentary elsewhere is a bit like - "technically it is possible this happened, therefore it did"

I'll wait until actual scientists and people in the know make their opinions public.

There's already a huge cohort of people who know little enough to be dangerous who are spouting all sorts of nonsense on social media.

I'm not going to add myself to their ranks.

banie01 wrote: »

Agreed, but Dr Yan's own claims in the media are far more strident and definite than the actual substance of her paper.

Reading the paper, its a theoretical possibility.
Watching her media spin, its a definitive certainty.

Its poor reporting, compounded by a poor paper with no actual conclusions or evidence.

If Brexit has shown us anything, it's that anyone can say anything at any time and the media (social and MS) will lose their sh*t over it, until the next person comes along shouting nonsense. Too much overreporting, not enough analysis, and complex topics and science are being presented to the public by people who have, at most, a superficial understanding of what's going on.

StackSteevens · 16-09-2020 12:22pm

Even the Sun report linked in the OP included the following disclaimer:-

Other scientists have disputed Dr Yan’s claims and concluded that it is naturally occurring and was passed to humans from an animal, probably a bat.

Writing in a research paper published earlier this year, immunologist Kristian Andersen PhD of the Scripps Research institute in California said: "By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that [Covid-19] originated through natural processes."

banie01 · 16-09-2020 12:37pm

StackSteevens wrote: »

Even the Sun report linked in the OP included the following disclaimer:-

Not often I'd give the Scum credit

never in fact, and terrible as it sounds I'd never and will never knowingly click a link to their particular brand of reporting.

However I will say at least, well done to them for providing at least a counterpoint if not an outright refutation.

Cheerful Spring2 · 16-09-2020 12:47pm

splashuum wrote: »

Dr. Yan has since had to flee to the US in fear of the CCP.
The incredibly detailed report can be found here :https://www.scribd.com/document/475993573/

It is now fair to say that its a conspiracy theory to believe this virus was entirely natural.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5903613/chinese-defector-virologist-publishes-explosive-proof-coronavirus-man-made/

https://www.itv.com/loosewomen/articles/virologist-dr-li-meng-yan-coronavirus-cover-up-claims

She would not have said this below if she believed her work was just opinion.

“SARS-CoV-2 shows biological characteristics that are inconsistent with a naturally occurring, zoonotic virus”.

Her background put's her inside in the door to see the cover up. We live in a world with people doubt the obvious signs the virus came from a lab.She have to deal with the usual suspects doubting her!

Dr Yan had been working at Hong Kong University’s public health laboratory sciences division, a World Health Organisation infectious diseases research centre, when her boss was asked to investigate the outbreak in Wuhan.

Dr Yan claimed her and her team’s scientific findings were suppressed, and they were told only to report cases linked to the Huanan seafood market. After becoming fearful of her safety, she fled China on a flight bound for Los Angeles in late April.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/chinese-defector-virologist-dr-limeng-yan-publishes-report-claiming-covid19-was-made-in-a-lab/news-story/36decb0c2bca253b696dec0cb665c970

16-09-2020 1:03pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

She would not have said this below if she believed her work was just opinion.

Her background put's her inside in the door to see the cover up. We live in a world with people doubt the obvious signs the virus came from a lab.She have to deal with the usual suspects doubting her!

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/chinese-defector-virologist-dr-limeng-yan-publishes-report-claiming-covid19-was-made-in-a-lab/news-story/36decb0c2bca253b696dec0cb665c970

It appears she has gotten herself mixed up in the marriage of convenience between Hong Kong dissidents and US trumpists. Her paer was backed by "the Rule of Law Society", a Steve Bannon backed group supporting the Hong Kong protest group. I am sure they are also big in the scientific publication world

Denny61 · 16-09-2020 1:07pm

This was man made..something bigger coming down the tracks. !!!.this is to distract us ..

lucernarian · 16-09-2020 1:20pm

StackSteevens wrote: »

Even the Sun report linked in the OP included the following disclaimer:-

That Anderson researcher cannot be considered an honest actor when they are already funded by the same EcoHealth Alliance that (instead of monitoring for emerging diseases) are active in gain-of-function research on betacoroniviruses for several years now, and released such a feeble paper to explore its origins. 96% sequence similarity do not a predecessor make (in RaTG13). In 2003 we quickly found strains almost identical (well over 99%) to SARS-CoV. There was no dispute as to its ancestry.

On the other hand, I think the preprint by the Chinese scientist makes a lot of leaps of logic and is not put together very well. How many times the word "suspiciously" is used, for one... I don't think this acts as a smoking gun of any kind, tbh what's more concerning for me is the nature, excuse the pun, in which a limited and flawed paper in Nature was allowed to be accepted as fact without scrutiny or follow-up research.

My doubts about that paper led me to an article by a geneticist in Medium who went a lot further (https://medium.com/@yurideigin/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-through-the-lens-of-gain-of-function-research-f96dd7413748. I think it might need minor revision now to take account of the diminishing evidence for pangolins as a zoonotic ancestral reservoir, but it raises enough points for me to argue that the origin simply hasn't been established yet.

Edit: terminology correction.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-09-2020 1:48pm

Her 6MB PDF file was uploaded to Zenodo.org or somewhere, but it kept getting hacked/taken down.
She also mentioned that addiitional/supplimentary documents will be forthcoming in the coming days.

At least she got out of China (before) this announcement, the fate of Whistleblowing Chinese Virologists, still in China, isn't great.

KyussB · 16-09-2020 2:28pm

This is propaganda guys - not even peer reviewed.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-09-2020 2:37pm

KyussB wrote: »

This is propaganda guys - not even peer reviewed.

Give folks some time to read it perhaps?

The Chinese Virologist only uploaded her document about 48hrs ago, with more to follow
The Chinese State itself is often associated across the West with' propaganda', and hasn't got a good track record dealing with any whistleblowers.

KyussB · 16-09-2020 2:45pm

Ah I see "US propaganda good, Chinese propaganda bad..." - as if the same posters who routinely deep-throat whatever propaganda the US spurts out, would uncritically gorge upon a non-peer-reviewed Chinese study accusing e.g. the US of developing and releasing the coronavirus in China. As if the US has a good track record with whistleblowers...

This is nothing but uncritically shilling US propaganda. The same types of people who'd have insisted the Iraq War dossier was authentic.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-09-2020 2:58pm

KyussB wrote: »

Ah I see "US propaganda good, Chinese propaganda bad..." - as if the same posters who routinely deep-throat whatever propaganda the US spurts out, would uncritically gorge upon a non-peer-reviewed Chinese study accusing e.g. the US of developing and releasing the coronavirus in China. As if the US has a good track record with whistleblowers...

This is nothing but uncritically shilling US propaganda. The same types of people who'd have insisted the Iraq War dossier was authentic.

Certainly your concept or theory, as you imply
{e.g...US of developing and releasing the coronavirus in China}

Could well deserve some contemplation,
...if such a comparable Virologist has a similar compiled PDF report to Doctor Li Meng-Yan to peruse, if so feel free to link to it.

Even a bit of coverage in the tabloids ?
e.g. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1334770/China-coronavirus-cover-up-man-made-proof-Wuhan-weapons-lab-conspiracy-theory-COVID-origin
or a claim on a national daytime tv show such as the LooseWomen (1.5m viewers).

KyussB · 16-09-2020 3:23pm

Yea Loose Women - our last bastion of journalistic integrity...

There isn't even a defence of gullibility for this - how the fuck are posters pushing this with a straight face, when everyone reading knows they don't believe a word of the report - when everyone knows these posters are fully aware that the report is bullshit, that the posters want to promote just for propaganda purposes?

It's a load of bollocks which belongs on facebook conspiracy theory pages.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-09-2020 3:32pm

KyussB wrote: »

when everyone reading knows they don't believe a word of the report

Everybody knows they (everybody) don't believe a (single word) in the report of the Chinese Virologist, that was uploaded just 48hrs or so ago?
That was fast, for everybody on the planet, well done folks!

Great bunch of lads:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795

Story was reported elsewhere around the world also:
https://nypost.com/2020/09/11/chinese-virologist-says-she-has-proof-covid-19-was-made-in-wuhan-lab/
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/coronavirus-chinese-defector-claims-covid19-came-from-military-lab/news-story/69c3fabab4639548d2dcddb7059aab96
https://in.news.yahoo.com/virologist-dr-li-meng-says-051515200.html
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Oops, still being looked at by the US:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-covid-19-origins-investigation-wuhan-lab-accident/

KyussB · 16-09-2020 3:40pm

Everyone goes on about China/Russia being a danger to us all in terms of disinformation/propaganda - there's a "reds under the bed" propaganda scare about disinformation posted on our social media from these states - and right here, in our face, is US propaganda and people shilling it when knowing it is false...

This thread, and the posters promoting this - are some of the best examples, that it is the US that spreads enormous amounts of disinformation on our social media and in our societies - making the US a far greater threat to the integrity of our politics and public discussion.

You won't find a single poster pushing the propaganda in this thread today, owning up to the fact that it is wrong to spread unverified disinformation, later on when it fades into obscurity (with the damage already done, of the disinformation having been spread, without needing to be verified). Yet you will find loads of posters here, who do it.

It's pretty obvious that US propaganda, and ample posters willing to amplify/back it uncritically, knowing it is false - is the done thing here.

take everything · 16-09-2020 3:48pm

Interesting that the virus is virtually non-existent in China now.

I always felt this was deliberate by China against the West.

Maybe I'm nuts but I'm usually right about things.

begbysback · 16-09-2020 3:58pm

KyussB wrote: »

This is propaganda guys - not even peer reviewed.

I’ve boards.ie reviewed it and it looks good to me.

seamus · 16-09-2020 4:01pm

The institute which claims to be backing this paper is a Steve Bannon vehicle. Another fake charity for him to take loads of money from wealthy people while pretending to actually do something and paying no tax.

This specific institute's stated goal is to attack the political structures of China and spread anti-China propaganda in the US.

It has no history of ever getting involved in science, in publishing scientific papers or peer reviewing any others.

KyussB · 16-09-2020 4:16pm

"But it says something bad about China, therefore it must be true!"

Covid-19 likely to be man made

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