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Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Not liking the official story.  

    Buildings collapse all the time due to different reasons. Buildings of this type this steel frame have never happened ever in history and certainly never at freefall acceleration. In light of the fact that this was a first in history, official details about the collapse have proven to be deeply flawed and suspect, you have to look at conspiracy. The official report authors went out of their way to remove construction on girders, as Mick pointed out. You don't think it's suspect the girder failed without this construction? In relation to Column 79, NIST claimed a girder/beam interlocked with it moved off its position during thermal expansion leading to the collapse of other steel girders. It has been admitted by Mick that NIST removed stiffener plates and shear studs and even got seat sizes wrong and other things that would prevent girders from moving. To people like you, it's unimportant, but to others, it shows a lack of interest in finding out the truth or covering it up what actually happened?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    So you don't like the established version of events, something that is in the history books and taught in schools all over the world. You've decided that you "know more" than everyone else about this event. But you can't explain what alternative happened in any detail.

    How do we know you aren't some crazy person making stuff up like Alex Jones?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    An overview of the events

    Around 2003, NIST was given the task to examine what happened to the building. It took them until 2008 to draft a report, which did not mention that the building collapsed at freefall for a period of time.

    According to the truther argument, all the columns were there across the building and in a flash they were all gone, causing the building to undergo a freefall period.

    At the draft conference Aug 2008, a physic teacher in the truth movement was able to engage in a question and answer session. Asked NIST why is there no freefall mention in your report?

    Answer back was this and provided video of this exchange of minds.

    NIST: [A] free-fall time would be an object that has no structural components below it.... What the analysis shows...is that same time it took for the structural model to come down...is 5.4 seconds. It’s about 1.5 seconds, or roughly 40 percent, more time for that free fall to happen. And that is not at all unusual because there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case.”

    Using their model, they excluded freefall due to a time delay of 5.4 seconds

    . Freefall means that all structural resistance underneath goes away instantly, and the only way to accomplish that is through controlled demolition

    The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) published a revised final report in November 2008 and stated that freefall takes place in stages. In the final report, it is claimed that the freefall is acceptable only after the final columns are buckled. It went from impossibility to possibility in a matter of months. In that report, they claim there is still resistance but don't clarify what they mean (resistance is resistance). Only NIST understands what they mean since they don't specify. It is apparent from their own computer modelling that this is all imagination and made up since we can see where there should be a freefall happening and the buckling is still occurring below. The final report of NIST was a fraud meant to conceal the real implications of what happened to steel columns inside building 7. 



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Yeah, we get that you think a building fell down in a weird way.


    But why?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    It is clear that some individuals pre-rigged the steel columns so they would collapse. The fact that NIST was unaware of the freefall is plenty of evidence, and research proves it. NIST couldn't imagine there would be no resistance beneath, which is why they dismissed the truther question in the first place. In case of freefall, all columns would simultaneously lose all connectional support, so NIST had to take steps to find a solution. They have weak arguments since their modelling shows actual collapse stages without freefall. When their modelling shows no freefall, why would you believe words on paper?

    It's impossible to tell why these individuals did what they did on 9/11, but we can guess, but we'll never know for sure why it happened. There are a lot of strange anomalies that don't make sense like fires burning for months, unexplained high heat pockets, and weird leaks coming out of towers melting. Finding some steel pieces with holes in them very strange for office fires. Office buildings usually contain wood, paper, and plastic, not high burning materials. FEMA also had a report about rare melting events, you dont see this in other buildings caught fire. There is something wrong with the official narrative that this building is somehow falling apart because of a few failed connections. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    You forgot to precede your spiel with “in my opinion”, because it is not clear to logically thinking people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    This is a first in history for a steel framed building to collapse due to fire at freefall acceleration and yet we have evidence that this trigger event may have been wrong. 

    Which one of us is crazy?

    As a public interest matter, NIST should explain to us what happens to that girder with all connections on. I suspect that never happen because NIST refuses to release their data because of a bogus national security claim. Firstly, you need to understand that collapses are rare events and nobody can repeat their work in a scientific way. It is incredible that no one has questioned the validity of this study for twenty years when the results can't be downloaded and analyzed. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,526 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    How did they rig the two biggest skyscrapers in the world while staying undetected?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    According to Truthers, nanothermite can be found in dust. This eliminates the need for the towers to be rigged by explosives.

    There could be failures based on the weight and volume that this was packed in with steel. Melting connections all over the place will lead to many failures inside the towers. Plus, nanothermite reacts to fire, so it would make sense to use a revolutionary explosive. Due to the nanoscale nature of the chips, it would be hard to see them with the naked eye. Very hard to detect unless you have right lab equipment. Dr. Neil Harris also noticed this gas type release after ignition (which may explain why the tower opened up like a mushroom cloud) a lot of steel was pushed out sideways to street blocks need a lot of pressure and force to push steel away from their collapsed positions. It would also explain the melting anomalies and why fires wouldn't extinguish under normal water pressure. There are chemicals igniting that take ages to extinguish in rubble piles.

    For seven. This looks more implosion from beneath. What stuff used here unknown guess at most. 



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,526 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    What does the military do about working around the work and remaining undetected? Did you know that Bin Laden was located in a compound adjacent to Pakistan's military academy before it was reported on the news? Not knowing how it could have been done is not proof that it didn't happen.

    The fact remains that seven didn't collapse naturally, so how they got inside the building is secondary to what happened. You have to know lots about what security was like there at night and what happened in place before 9/11. Why would anyone suspect a few guys doing some work before 9/11? Would you normally stare at workmen or people on their way to work trying to figure out what they are doing? There is clearly evidence of military grade nanothermite in these buildings. This was a major operation involving powerful people with the power to get men inside. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,526 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Another pathetic dodge.

    This is a conspiracy theory forum. How they planted the explosives is a huge part of any conspiracy.

    And you have no answers and therefore no theory. Just waffle. As per usual.

    "A few guys" lol



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    First time in history multiple skyscrapers were secretly brought down with explosives - but that seems perfectly credible to you.

    So which is it, if something happens for the "first time in history", it's possible or impossible according to you?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    You didn't answer the question, or provide any hint of an idea.

    Why?

    This is the conspiracy theories forum, come up with a theory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yea. He'd claimed that it was only 16 guys who did it over a weekend.


    He and other 9/11 truthers don't want to give details because if they lay out a theory they know it will sound ridiculous and will make it harder to change the story to suit their argument.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I don't accept his wierd theory, but that is probably the easy bit.

    Modern office buildings have false ceilings, it's easy to get into that space. There are maintenance and cleaning staff, generally run by external companies, so theoretically it would be possible to get teams in to plant the explosives. Unlikely in the extreme that it happened, but not an insurmountable problem.

    Now if Trump had owned the buildings and needed the insurance money that might make it more credible and even likely!!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    In building seven, a secret CIA office is located, according to the New York Times. It is very strange that the New York Times reported that this office had a deep involvement in counterterrorism and was handling files directly related to Al Qaeda activities, such as the USS Cole bombing in Yemen and the Embassy attack in East Africa. This was a consequence of the CIA secret field office being here before 9/11. Therefore, this provided a way for the CIA to intervene.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/04/us/nation-challenged-intelligence-agency-secret-cia-site-new-york-was-destroyed.html

    The tracing of hijackers by others in authority was covered up by the CIA . It is clear from leaked documents that the CIA deliberately avoided flagging hijackers on watch lists, and even refused to divulge their identities to FBI agents and White House officials. The CIA had foreknowledge of the attacks on 9/11. Since the CIA operates outside the norm, its officers have refused toanswer questionss about their knowledge. CIA is covering up JFK and 9/11 attacks, they have a hand in both. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Considering the events of that day where planes were hijacked and flew all over the country in an attempt to target buildings anything possible. If the neocons plan to take out seven Arab countries, then this terrorist attack will be used to exacerbate the situation. A week later, Anthrax attacks targeted politicians and some died. There was clearly something major going on. Later, it was discovered that the anthrax was not made in a foreign lab, but rather was made in a US military lab. This was a coordinated effort to create panic and fear. The unusual anomalies found here after the building fell clearly indicate that some people took down these buildings in order to create even more panic and fear. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Do you genuinely not see how one contradicts the other?

    Event A happens for the first time - therefore according to you it can't have happened

    Event B happens for the first time - according to you it can have happened

    Which is it?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭lumphammer2


    Most conspiracies tend to be 100% untrue ... but there are a few that may have some truth in them ... let's review a few ...

    1 Dead JFK ... it is easy for this to be a conspiracy because there has been no definite proof about who had him killed and why ... the mafia the cubans the russians the Republic of Gilead all have been blamed ... simple as this ... one of these or some combination is true but the others are not ...

    2 Elvis being alive ... there is no concrete evidence of this being true ... no post 1977 recordings have surfaced on bootlegs ... nothing ... Elvis was a great singer but sadly he is dead .. but lives forever via his music ..

    3 Diana's murder ... while it is true dodgy carry on happened during the period after her death it is hard to know for sure how she died ... accident or murder ... strange that things were swapped ... no way would the Ritz have a drunk driver ... esp for Diana ... just no way ...

    4 'Islamic Republic' of Iran being an undercover ally of USA ... most definitely the case ... I believe this one 100% ... 43 years in power and Ali Khamenei was never touched ...

    5 Trump working for Putin ... defo ... and links in with 4 too ... all what we are lead to believe is fake with these corrupt individuals ...

    6 Ukraine being run by Nazis who are creating pandemics to infect Russia ... 100% false but a war was justified because some senior members of Russia's regime believe it 100% to be true ...

    7 WMD in Iraq ... 100% false but also used to justify a war ... this time by those welknown warmongers the Republicans ...

    8 The Jew/Commie plot ... 100% false but Hitler justified his wars akin to 6 and 7 and it lead to WW2 ...

    9 Pervert priests agents of the KGB ... 100% false and used to excuse corruption in the RC church ...

    10 9/11 being staged ... probably not but surely someone should have known about this plot and did not act ...

    11 Most of the Covid 19 anti vax anti mask stuff ... 100% false ... among the daftest rubbish you are likely to hear ...

    12 Alien and UFO stuff ... probably 90% false but I do believe in alien life ... but I also believe in science fiction being a genre ...

    13 Reality TV and most modern music being made to destroy people's intelligence ... could just be true !!!

    14 Trump owning the World Trade Org and its NY HQ ... and he being behind 9/11 for insurance purposes and/or to destroy evidence ... I'd love it to be true but it ain't ...

    15 Trump winning the 2020 election ... 100% lies ... stop the steal did happen ... Trump's attempt to steal that is ...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So the CIA destroyed one building, but did it a bit wrong so that people would notice that it fell down at a different speed to the official report. They did this in order to cover up that they destroyed a couple of other buildings with secret explosives, but to cover that they arranged for some people to fly planes into the buildings first.


    And they did this because they didn't want to invest in a shredder for destroying documents?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Can secretly rig an entire skyscraper for demolition

    Can't destroy files in their own office



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Because that wouldn’t be convoluted enough for a conspiracy theorist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Documents that there's no evidence for and no one would have ever known about if they didn't call attention to them by faking a terrorist attack in a way that made it look obviously fake to even uneducated people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    "We need to destroy the secret files!"

    -"Sir, the ones we have in our office? I can just shred them right n-"

    "No! It has to be planes and secret explosives!! Get me the President, the Nazis, the Saudis, the FBI, Al Qaeda and Mossad on the line right now!!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    "But only like one of each of those groups. We need to keep this under 16 people. Also call this 70 year old property developer with no expertise in demolition. Sure hope he can keep a secret..."



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,526 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Thats the problem with the conspiraloon thinking. Starting off with a premise "EG It was an inside job" and then working backwards from there, pluckling out factoids to suit their "theory".

    A proper theory contains a beginning, a middle and an end. Not just an end and then a load of selective waffle in isolation. No critical thinking whatsoever.

    Cheerful thinks the buildings were brought down by explosives but cant even vaguely explain how the buildings wouldve been rigged. NYC police, CIA, FBI, private security, CCTV, office secretaries, security badges, sign in sheets, clock in machines, locked doors, fire and access alarms etc all bypassed.

    Bypassed by the way across 250 floors (including WTC 7), 12 million square feet of floor space and 430 different companies. Each with their own security staff and protocols, doors, locks, CCTV, staff etc. No one noticed a load of blokes walking around in no access areas with tonnes of explosives.

    John O'Neill, the head of security at the WTC would've likely have had to been involved? He died when the south tower collapsed. Seems an odd day not to call in sick.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Here's an example of how a plausible 9/11 conspiracy would go:

    Al Qaeda were planning an attack on American soil. Elements in the US government and/or CIA believed that this would be a useful evn to help gain public support for policies, specifically a more aggressive international policy. Those elements, then simply stopped intelligence reports about this planned attack from reaching the right people that could have raised the alarm about it. This was easily done because of the archaic and culture of secrecy between agencies that was well documented by the various 9/11 investigations. It would also be very easy to justify and excuse as an honest mistake.

    The elements could have ranged from a single higher up in the CIA who acted on his own. Or it could have been a directive from the president. It would have been trivial to keep something like that secret.

    This theory could be stretched a bit to include the notion that the conspirators helped the attack along, like perhaps throwing off investigators or giving the attackers visa clearance when they would have otherwise been flagged.

    They could have even given them material support.


    There's no need for them to plant secret high tech explosives that have never been used before. There's no need for them to have secret double planes to buzz the pentagon. It's simple, direct and most importantly plausible.

    But no conspiracy theorists are interested in a theory like this because it's kinda boring. There's no shocking evidence that makes for a good youtube video.


    And just to make it abundantly clear in case some one is determined to misrepresent me, I don't personally subscribe to this theory. I don't believe that it actually happened. I don't have any evidence to support it because I just plucked it out of my ass.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Conspiracy theorists also have a much lower bar for rationalising stuff to themselves

    Cheerful's response to the above would be along the lines of: "The head of security was in on it, but they probably gave him the wrong date of the attack in order to kill him with it and destroy the evidence. Work-men came in at nights and weekends to do the job, sure tall buildings always have work going on in them. There were reports of that kind of work going on prior to the attacks, probably happened then."

    Since CTers often make-up the world around them, they think everyone else does it too. They literally think a bunch of people got together in a room and made-up the 9/11 narrative, so they feel validated in doing the same.



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