Luas - a system in decline

thenightman · 14-10-2019 10:42pm

Is there any scope to increase the length of Red Line trams? I travel from Red Cow-Heuston at peak times and it's a pitched battle to try and squeeze my way out past the boarding passengers waiting 5 deep on the platform when it reaches Heuston. People sprinting in panic from inside the train station to attempt to get on the tram. I feel embarrassed when tourists witness such shoddiness.

Where was the future proofing in the design? it was long enough and expensive enough in coming like. Only in bloody Ireland do we build something way over budget and then leave it be for a decade plus and expect things to work fine despite population obviously increasing.

Public transport links to the Red Cow station is awful too. Unsheltered bus stop that leaves you walk up a steep hill, yet private cars and taxis get to park next to the platform.

holliehobbie · 14-10-2019 10:45pm

The platforms on the red line are barely long enough for the current trams so they can't be increased in length.

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 10:53pm

heffo500 wrote: »

Would it not have made better sense to have an underground in a loop from Heuston and connecting to Connolly Station, Busaras and on south side pass near Grand Canal Dock & St. Stephen's green? Similar to the Circle line in London. Then have the trams finish at a station of the underground instead of them weaving through the city slowly so Red Line ends at Heuston and Green line maybe ends at Camden Street?

You're basically describing Dart underground baring the loop. This project has been shelved now. There is a general election coming up soon. Tell the door knockers you want a proper transport network

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 10:54pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Just popped up on my FB feed
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/1014/1083325-luas-trams/

This is the 5th or 6th time this useless government have announced this

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 10:58pm

thenightman wrote: »

Where was the future proofing in the design? it was long enough and expensive enough in coming like. Only in bloody Ireland do we build something way over budget and then leave it be for a decade plus and expect things to work fine despite population obviously increasing.

Future proofing! Haha you're having a laugh right. Almost every transport project has been neutered before launching to please nimby's or keep the budget down
Same thing is happening with Metrolink

devnull · 15-10-2019 9:20am

thenightman wrote: »

Is there any scope to increase the length of Red Line trams? I travel from Red Cow-Heuston at peak times and it's a pitched battle to try and squeeze my way out past the boarding passengers waiting 5 deep on the platform when it reaches Heuston. People sprinting in panic from inside the train station to attempt to get on the tram. I feel embarrassed when tourists witness such shoddiness.

Where was the future proofing in the design? it was long enough and expensive enough in coming like. Only in bloody Ireland do we build something way over budget and then leave it be for a decade plus and expect things to work fine despite population obviously increasing.

The number of trams, frequency and the length of trams on the Red Line have all been increased since the red line was opened, so it is wrong to say that there was no future proofing because it had some built in but there will always be such limitations of a light rail system above ground.

The problem is with a successful light rail system that has interaction with road junctions there is only so much future proofing you can do as you run out of land to extend platforms or just get trams stuck behind each other in the line and the system becomes a victim of it's own success.

This is why countries use heavy rail and underground because youhave more space to work with via dedicated infrastructure that you don't need to share with other modes for the most part, and it's easier to extend later on. However light rail is generally cheaper so countries often go for that, but the problem is sooner or later you hit a cap on capacity much earlier than on a heavy rail line.

Trams have a place, certainly but the kind of distances the Red and Green lines travel really would be better off as metro or heavy rail with trams used for shorter trips like they are in other cities.

LollipopJimmy · 15-10-2019 9:23am

devnull wrote: »

The number of trams, frequency and the length of trams on the Red Line have all been increased since the red line was opened, so it is wrong to say that there was no future proofing because it had some built in.

The problem is with a successful light rail system that has interaction with road junctions there is only so much future proofing you can do as you run out of land to extend platforms or just get trams stuck behind each other in the line and the system becomes a victim of it's own success.

As far as I knew a few were moved from green to red and that was it, it was also given fairly significant extensions at each end. I could be wrong though?

goingnowhere · 15-10-2019 9:27am

The entire original Green line fleet has been transferred to the Red line. The Red line was originally 30m and were extended to 40m quite early on.

Fattybojangles · 15-10-2019 9:29am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I've been using the Luas a good bit the last 12 months having moved to a City Centre office and tbh it's a complete ****show, every day overcrowded trams are too full to take more passengers. Nearly every day so far in October there have been delays on each line due to signalling faults or failed trams (this doesn't include traffic incidents or protest marches)

Transdev don't seem to care, dept of transport don't care. The system is obviously aging but I dont get why the number of trams in service is so low at any given time, it seems the point of the service is to drive as much profit out of it as possible.

Absolute nonsense and hyperbole theres a luas every 4 minutes or so at peak time how can they do any better than that? and as for the being busy well you're not the only one who works in the city centre get up earlier or walk to a stop further down the line.

devnull · 15-10-2019 9:30am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

As far as I knew a few were moved from green to red and that was it, it was also given fairly significant extensions at each end. I could be wrong though?

26x 30m 3000 series trains, built for the red line were extended to 40m

14x 40m 4000 series trains, built for the green line, moved to the red line on delivery of the 43m 5000 series.

LollipopJimmy · 15-10-2019 9:37am

Fattybojangles wrote: »

Absolute nonsense and hyperbole theres a luas every 4 minutes or so at peak time how can they do any better than that? and as for the being busy well you're not the only one who works in the city centre get up earlier or walk to a stop further down the line.

See it's due every 4 minutes but the delays from breakdowns are happening daily and the knock on effect is felt for hours after which is the whole point of my post.

I actually looked at it last week and there were breaqkdowns on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th. I've not looked beyond that, each of those were for failed trams, signalling faults or 'operational reasons'. That is across both lines but on 6 of those days there was a failure on both lines. (There were more delays from protest marches but we'll leave that for another day)

If you wouldn't mind poining out the hyperbole and nonsense there I'd appreciate it.

MrMusician18 · 15-10-2019 10:07am

I wonder would there be scope to double deck the trams?

Idbatterim · 15-10-2019 10:09am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I wonder would there be scope to double deck the trams?

I’ve seen it discussed before. Let’s just leave it at an emphatic “no”!

Could they start turning back every third tram at ssg?

machaseh · 15-10-2019 10:12am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I wonder would there be scope to double deck the trams?

I've been thinking about that too hah. At least for the green line, it wouldn't fit under most of the tunnels and bridges. It would also require overhauling the entire overhead power wire system, not to mention the fact that double decker trams don't exist anywhere else so they would have to be custom made for Dublin which would be too dear.

But it would certainly make for a world-renowned tourist attraction to have double decker trams.

Idbatterim · 15-10-2019 10:13am

https://www.thejournal.ie/longer-green-line-luas-trams-4851094-Oct2019/

machaseh · 15-10-2019 10:26am

Other cities operate double decker trams so hey why not. But they seem to be more old fashioned streetcars rather than modern higher speed trams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-decker_tram

CatInABox · 15-10-2019 10:31am

A double decker tram would have to go much slower for safety purposes, and wouldn't increase capacity on the line by much as a result.

Tchaikovsky · 15-10-2019 10:45am

You'd also have scobes surfing off the back of the top tier and falling.

Idbatterim · 15-10-2019 10:48am

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

You'd also have scobes surfing off the back of the top tier and falling.

And getting a pay out !

machaseh · 15-10-2019 11:13am

The better solution would be to create a third track on the fast portion of the luas green, between sandyford and Harcourt Street. There will probably not be sufficient room to build a third track along the entire route, but passing tracks could be constructed on much of it to allow peak-time Express tram services which would serve limited stops only.

Express trams would stop at:

All stops to Brides Glen
Sandyford
Balally
Dundrum
Ranelagh
Charlemont
Harcourt Street
All stops to Broombridge/Parnell

Meanwhile the services terminating at Sandyford would always serve all stops.

This would also provide extra capacity to make new branches of the green Luas, such as one from Charlemont to Rathfarnham.

devnull · 15-10-2019 12:18pm

CatInABox wrote: »

A double decker tram would have to go much slower for safety purposes, and wouldn't increase capacity on the line by much as a result.

Plus it would have to be shorter and you have the problem of bridges that it's not going to be able to get under, I'm talking about Ballally for a start.

That's before we take into account the fact double decker trams simply aren't made in modern times.

Del.Monte · 15-10-2019 12:27pm

Double deck trams were of their time (1880s-1930s) when speed wasn't the priority. Trams mutated into light rail and if you want to see them the best place is Crich, Derbyshire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eymkg5GfzuA

trellheim · 15-10-2019 1:06pm

Get approx 10 more trams on both Red and Green and run them on Point-Heuston shuttles and SSG->Stillorgan ?

cherryghost · 15-10-2019 2:38pm

Guys don't worry, soon there will be website for LUAS commuters proposing to stagger their commute times with shiny graphs of busy times on a per-stop basis.

Problem solved. It certainly worked for that DART website, whatever-its-called.com

LollipopJimmy · 15-10-2019 7:01pm

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

See it's due every 4 minutes but the delays from breakdowns are happening daily and the knock on effect is felt for hours after which is the whole point of my post.

I actually looked at it last week and there were breaqkdowns on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th. I've not looked beyond that, each of those were for failed trams, signalling faults or 'operational reasons'. That is across both lines but on 6 of those days there was a failure on both lines. (There were more delays from protest marches but we'll leave that for another day)

If you wouldn't mind poining out the hyperbole and nonsense there I'd appreciate it.

Today can be added to this list. Delays on the green line 'technical fault'

Spanish Eyes · 15-10-2019 7:39pm

The Luas is OK on the Green Line, purely because it is segregated, mostly following the old Harcourt Street Line.

The Red Line on the other hand is an absolute pain. It takes forever to get into the city. I don't bother after Heuston, so take any of the buses at Heuston from Lucan direction direct down the buslane on the Quays, far, far quicker than the Luas.

Cars and traffic lights interfere with the Luas on the Red Line far too much IMO.

machaseh · 16-10-2019 8:20am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The Luas is OK on the Green Line, purely because it is segregated, mostly following the old Harcourt Street Line.

The Red Line on the other hand is an absolute pain. It takes forever to get into the city. I don't bother after Heuston, so take any of the buses at Heuston from Lucan direction direct down the buslane on the Quays, far, far quicker than the Luas.

Cars and traffic lights interfere with the Luas on the Red Line far too much IMO.

I don't think it's that slow beyond heuston, definitely not slower than getting off the luas at heuston and jumping onto an already full bus that will sit in traffic and stop at every corner.

More could be done to increase speed farther down the line though. For example a LUAS bridge could be constructed to go above the Naas Road / Walkinstown Ave junction as well as the very busy junction at Naas Rd / Long Mile Rd. This would also assist road traffic in the area.

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 10:44am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

See it's due every 4 minutes but the delays from breakdowns are happening daily and the knock on effect is felt for hours after which is the whole point of my post.

I actually looked at it last week and there were breaqkdowns on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th. I've not looked beyond that, each of those were for failed trams, signalling faults or 'operational reasons'. That is across both lines but on 6 of those days there was a failure on both lines. (There were more delays from protest marches but we'll leave that for another day)

If you wouldn't mind poining out the hyperbole and nonsense there I'd appreciate it.

True. Have lost count of the number of times it has terminated and Black Horse and left hundreds of people stranded. It's ok though - you can use your ticket on Dublin bus - the ones that are already full. :P

16-10-2019 10:47am

They should have build it in one continuous loop that never stops,
get the platforms to move at the same speed as the train so you can hop on.
just like a ski lift

The Moldy Gowl · 16-10-2019 10:48am

Antares35 wrote: »

True. Have lost count of the number of times it has terminated and Black Horse and left hundreds of people stranded. It's ok though - you can use your ticket on Dublin bus - the ones that are already full. :P

Has this only happened once in the last month and maybe 1/2 other times in the last 18 months?
I can only remember the last one from a few weeks ago, and a vague memory of another. This is from me getting the luas a few stops down from blackhorse between 8 and 8:30 so they probably had the issue fixed by them.

Luas - a system in decline

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