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06-12-2018, 01:24   #9421
Franz Von Peppercorn
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Originally Posted by Raheem Euro View Post
'Forests' and 'trees' those words and the 'ideas ' of those things represent properties or collections of properties as observed/ measured in the mind of a human. There is no human present.

What is really here in the absence of a human in the absence of those properties and ideas? Lots of Fields excited/unexcited state?
In my view what happens in the absence of humans when a tree falls in the forest is what happens when there are humans. Sound doesn’t depend on hearing. Anyway I don’t suppose this is a thread for bickering.
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06-12-2018, 12:02   #9422
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I'll genuinely stop on this topic now for a few months, if people want to discuss I'd be happy to on the physics forum. I just don't want to leave the wrong impression.

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Some of physics, or more kindly some interpretations of it, seems to be heading down this kind of intellectual cul de sac. In the We can’t measure it does it really exist?
Just to be clear that's not what the issue with QM is about. Neither the theory nor ideas related to it say things don't exist when they're not being observed. In my career I have encountered nobody who thinks stuff doesn't exist if we can't measure it, even in the most extreme views on QM. I don't think this is even a minority opinion in either physics or its interpretations.

Rather we know for example that objects aren't really made of particles or fields. Particles and fields are just useful ways of describing certain experimental results. This isn't abstract philosophising as Quantum Mechanics as a scientific theory directly says this. It literally flags/warns you about situations where thinking things are made of particles will lead you to incorrect conclusions.

For example the radiation that comes off certain nuclear reactions, if you attempt to think of that radiation as being made of particles and proceed on that basis you'll make wrong conclusions about how the reaction will proceed. Similarly certain processes in the cores of stars and certain effects in metals can't be explained in particle terms and QM will warn you not to use particle concepts there. Even in cases where you can use the idea of particles, you mightn't be able to use all of it. So for example shining light off a caffeine molecule, QM says that the caffeine can be thought of as a particle and the light can be thought of as particles (photons). However even in that case QM will warn you that you can't use everything we normally associate with a particle. We naturally think of particles as having a size, a mass, some energy, a location and a speed. In the caffeine example QM will tell you that the size and location concepts should just be ignored/aren't applicable. In other cases it might be the mass concept you should forget about.

Even worse sometimes a concept can apply but give varying answers. For example in a beam of light the "Number of Photons" concept does apply, but sometimes when you measure it you find 45 photons, the next second 72 photons and this is the same unchanged beam of light. So the concept is fine to use, but clearly the light isn't actually made of a specific number of photons.

These are scientific predictions and QM is providing an experimentally testable guide to when certain concepts (particles, fields, energy, momentum, etc) are valid and okay to use and when they are not. It's not an intellectual cul de sac, it's something you have to directly acknowledge as being shown from experiments.

Obviously then the underlying stuff doesn't care about our concepts ultimately, since any of them could fail to apply in different situations. Unfortunately we just don't know what are the sensible concepts/descriptions for the fundamental stuff and there are strong reasons (in the form of mathematical theorems) to think we basically can't understand them.

Not being able to grasp something is completely separate from thinking it doesn't exist.

Last edited by Fourier; 06-12-2018 at 18:56.
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06-12-2018, 17:50   #9423
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Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
In Rainman there is a scene in which Dustin Hoffman's character refuses to fly because of his fear of plane crashes, listing off a catalogue of accidents. It's the scene which explains why they have to make the roadtrip which makes up so much of the film, but because of the content, it was cut from the in-flight version of the film by many airlines.

Can anybody guess one airline which left the scene in their in-flight version?

I remember watching Rain Man in the United States on a regular terrestrial TV station in the summer of 2002 or 2003 and they had cut that scene - I guess 9/11 was still a litte raw.
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06-12-2018, 20:00   #9424
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Rain Man airline question: Delta Airlines?
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06-12-2018, 20:37   #9425
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George HW Bush was married for 75 years, three months and eleven days. Which is a longer time-frame than the life-span of 26 former US presidents.

And in the sixteen terms between Lincoln's presidency and Herbert Hoover's, only five of them lived beyond the age of 70-although Grover Cleveland (who died aged 71 years, 98 days) technically counts twice. The other septuagenarian's during that period were Rutherford B Hayes (70 years, 105 days), William H Taft (72 years, 174 days) and the wily Hoover himself, who lived to the ripe old age of 90 years, 71 days. He is one of only six to have ticked into the 90s bracket. Bush Sr, Adams Sr, Reagan, Ford and Carter are the others- four of which served one after the other.

Quite amazingly, John Adams (90 years, 247 days) was the longest-living president for almost two centuries until Ronald Reagan surpassed his lifespan in 2001. Some achievement considering the average lifespan of the eighteenth century.
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06-12-2018, 21:21   #9426
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On a similar note, the little fact about the US President (John Tyler) born in the 18th century with two grandchildren alive today is still true.
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06-12-2018, 21:31   #9427
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On a similar note, the little fact about the US President (John Tyler) born in the 18th century with two grandchildren alive today is still true.
also on a similar note the last remaining US civil war widow died this century.
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06-12-2018, 21:31   #9428
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06-12-2018, 22:26   #9429
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There's a population of ~50 hippos roaming wild in the colombian countryside. They are desdended from 4 that were smughled in by drug lord Pablo Escobar as 'pets' that roamed around his estate. After he died, it was deemed too difficult to move them, so the authorities left them to roam around his estate. They have now migrated and multiplied, and are causing problems that may require a culling.
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06-12-2018, 22:36   #9430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz Von Peppercorn View Post
In my view what happens in the absence of humans when a tree falls in the forest is what happens when there are humans. Sound doesn’t depend on hearing. Anyway I don’t suppose this is a thread for bickering.
Sounds is created in the ear. If there are no ears, how can there be sound?
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06-12-2018, 22:48   #9431
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Sounds is created in the ear. If there are no ears, how can there be sound?
this is not true sound is created in the brain
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07-12-2018, 00:11   #9432
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The ear/brain is a receiver of sound, it doesn’t create it.
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07-12-2018, 00:13   #9433
Quazzie
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The ear/brain is a receiver of sound, it doesn’t create it.
Sound is resonance converted in the brain via the ear. If there is no ear then the resonance is just basically air
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07-12-2018, 00:14   #9434
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If it were only air, everything would sound (or whoosh) in the same way.
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07-12-2018, 01:12   #9435
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The Thanksgiving Turkey presented to the U.S. President each year was originally intended to be slaughtered for the White House Thanksgiving dinner. It was George H.W. Bush that established the currently ongoing tradition of presenting the turkey with a Presidential Pardon, sparing its life.
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