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General Rugby Discussion II

13567…176

Comments

  • #102
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    Are World Rugby forcing Ireland to pick non-Irish players?

    This is just head in sand stuff. No, they're not forcing them to pick non-Irish players. They're facilitating it though. Maybe World Rugby should pull a Brian Ashton? We don't know whose decision it was to play those project players but it wasn't ours!

    The IRFU would be idiots if they didn't avail of the project system when their main competitors and rivals are doing just that. They would be idiots if they passed on someone like Jared Payne. They would be idiots if they allowed Irish teams to perform less well in a professional environment despite the presence of a very straightforward and simple system to allow them to benefit the teams and thereby grow the game through the success and financial rewards of those benefits.

    Your inability/refusal to see this is baffling. If they shut down the project player system then that's fine. It's gone for everyone. But to take some sort of misguided moral high ground on the topic to the detriment of the Irish team is bizarre when all and sundry will just carry on finding suitable candidates and strenghtening their teams.


  • #103
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    The whole thing about the project player system is way overblown anyway. You're taking a punt that a young guy or mid-range journeyman from SA/NZ will, three years from now be an international quality player. It's no surprise that most of them never get near that level, instead they just turn out to be what the provinces have always had: squad players.

    Let's look at who has qualified/might qualify apart from Strauss/Stander/Payne:

    LH: Schalk van der Merwe - who knows?
    Hooker: Rhys Marshall - pretty ropey so far; Tom McCartney - now eligible, not called up
    TH: Herbst - eligible, might be useful for a few caps; Ah You - will never play again
    Lock: Roux - has three caps, will be lucky to make it five; Kleyn; a big lump, might come good
    Back row: Heenan - eligible since 2016, never called up; Cloete - who knows?; Diack - two caps, will never play again
    SH: Gibson-Park - hard to see him getting capped
    OH: Bleyendaal; initial enthusiasm has waned, needs to improve dramatically
    Centre: Aki; we'll find out soon enough
    Back three: Ludik - now eligible, not called up; James Lowe - saviour of Irish rugby, obvs.

    I'm sure I'm leaving someone out, but that's a fair number of players and only Aki and possibly Lowe are worth getting excited about. Most of them don't even make their provincial first XV, never mind the Ireland squad. And the above list doesn't include guys who've come and gone.

    I think the IRFU and the provinces look for guys who can improve the provinces initially and if they turn out to be good enough, then capping them is a bonus. No one really thought Strauss was going to be an international after his first season, Stander likewise. Payne is probably the only guy who was anointed from day one.


  • #104
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Former Former wrote: »
    The whole thing about the project player system is way overblown anyway. You're taking a punt that a young guy or mid-range journeyman from SA/NZ will, three years from now be an international quality player. It's no surprise that most of them never get near that level, instead they just turn out to be what the provinces have always had: squad players.

    Let's look at who has qualified/might qualify apart from Strauss/Stander/Payne:

    LH: Schalk van der Merwe - who knows?
    Hooker: Rhys Marshall - pretty ropey so far; Tom McCartney - now eligible, not called up
    TH: Herbst - eligible, might be useful for a few caps; Ah You - will never play again
    Lock: Roux - has three caps, will be lucky to make it five; Kleyn; a big lump, might come good
    Back row: Heenan - eligible since 2016, never called up; Cloete - who knows?; Diack - two caps, will never play again
    SH: Gibson-Park - hard to see him getting capped
    OH: Bleyendaal; initial enthusiasm has waned, needs to improve dramatically
    Centre: Aki; we'll find out soon enough
    Back three: Ludik - now eligible, not called up; James Lowe - saviour of Irish rugby, obvs.
    The ones in bold print are playing for Ulster. That's six in total (unless I've missed one or two).

    That's the point I made above. The provinces benefit the most from the carrot of international rugby.


  • #105
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Joy neville is to ref bordeaux v enisei next month. First female ref for euro comp game

    Some 3 or 4 months for her.


  • #106
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Ireland have enough good players to field a fully Irish 23 for every game. We do not need projects.

    Let's take a look at Ireland current depth chart, shall we, to 3 places deep.

    Position|Players|Num Projects
    LH:|Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne|0
    HK:|Best, Scannell, Tracy|0
    TH:|Furlong, Ryan, Porter|0
    LK:|Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux|1
    BS:|POM, Stander, Ruddock|1
    OS:|SOB, VDF, Leavy|0
    N8:|Heaslip, Conan, Murphy|0
    |
    SH:|Murray, Marmion, McGrath|0
    OH:|Sexton, Carbery, Keatley|0
    IC:|Henshaw, McCloskey, Scannell|0
    OC:|Ringrose, Payne, Aki|2
    WG:|Earls, Stockdale, D Kearney, Byrne, Sweetnam, B Daly|0
    FB:|R Kearney, Conway, TOH|0


    So from a total of 45 players we're looking at 4 projects (2 of the top 30). And only 1 of those is first choice. If you look at where they are we have 1 way down the depth chart at lock, 1 in an area of strength that is the back row and 2 at outside centre. I think its fair to say we are very short on quality outside centres in Ireland at the moment so having 2 guys backing up a young Irish guy there is probably not the worst thing in the world.

    Arguably Stander is the only case of a project player that people could realistically object to. He's in a position of strength for Ireland and is "blocking" young Irish players coming through. I don't think the same could be said for the others though. It really isn't what you are making it out to be at all.


  • #107
    MarinersBlues
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭MarinersBlues


    I take exception to the fact you have TOH as third choice full-back.
    He shouldn't be behind Kearney.


  • #108
    Bridge93
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Was a lot of teeth nashing by some when Kearney was being picked ahead of Payne at fullback. Does Payne not count as a project?


  • #109
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Let's take a look at Ireland current depth chart, shall we, to 3 places deep.

    Position|Players|Num Projects
    LH:|Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne|0
    HK:|Best, Scannell, Tracy|0
    TH:|Furlong, Ryan, Porter|0
    LK:|Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux|1
    BS:|POM, Stander, Ruddock|1
    OS:|SOB, VDF, Leavy|0
    N8:|Heaslip, Conan, Murphy|0
    |
    SH:|Murray, Marmion, McGrath|0
    OH:|Sexton, Carbery, Keatley|0
    IC:|Henshaw, McCloskey, Scannell|0
    OC:|Ringrose, Payne, Aki|2
    WG:|Earls, Stockdale, D Kearney, Byrne, Sweetnam, B Daly|0
    FB:|R Kearney, Conway, TOH|0


    So from a total of 45 players we're looking at 4 projects (2 of the top 30). And only 1 of those is first choice. If you look at where they are we have 1 way down the depth chart at lock, 1 in an area of strength that is the back row and 2 at outside centre. I think its fair to say we are very short on quality outside centres in Ireland at the moment so having 2 guys backing up a young Irish guy there is probably not the worst thing in the world.

    Arguably Stander is the only case of a project player that people could realistically object to. He's in a position of strength for Ireland and is "blocking" young Irish players coming through. I don't think the same could be said for the others though. It really isn't what you are making it out to be at all.
    So why are we continuing to sign more project players?


  • #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Was a lot of teeth nashing by some when Kearney was being picked ahead of Payne at fullback. Does Payne not count as a project?

    Here is a direct quote from awec himself in 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056839263&page=174
    awec wrote: »
    I'd still have Payne ahead of Kearney. I think he's a better player personally.

    He hasn't played 13 much and I don't really see him doing so, unless orders come from Ireland that we have to play him as a centre?


  • #111
    connemara man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭connemara man


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Let's take a look at Ireland current depth chart, shall we, to 3 places deep.

    Position|Players|Num Projects
    LH:|Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne|0
    HK:|Best, Scannell, Tracy|0
    TH:|Furlong, Ryan, Porter|0
    LK:|Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux|1
    BS:|POM, Stander, Ruddock|1
    OS:|SOB, VDF, Leavy|0
    N8:|Heaslip, Conan, Murphy|0
    |
    SH:|Murray, Marmion, McGrath|0
    OH:|Sexton, Carbery, Keatley|0
    IC:|Henshaw, McCloskey, Scannell|0
    OC:|Ringrose, Payne, Aki|2
    WG:|Earls, Stockdale, D Kearney, Byrne, Sweetnam, B Daly|0
    FB:|R Kearney, Conway, TOH|0


    So from a total of 45 players we're looking at 4 projects (2 of the top 30). And only 1 of those is first choice. If you look at where they are we have 1 way down the depth chart at lock, 1 in an area of strength that is the back row and 2 at outside centre. I think its fair to say we are very short on quality outside centres in Ireland at the moment so having 2 guys backing up a young Irish guy there is probably not the worst thing in the world.

    Arguably Stander is the only case of a project player that people could realistically object to. He's in a position of strength for Ireland and is "blocking" young Irish players coming through. I don't think the same could be said for the others though. It really isn't what you are making it out to be at all.

    I'd say if you went as far as 4 deep the numbers wouldn't jump dramatically


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  • #112
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Was a lot of teeth nashing by some when Kearney was being picked ahead of Payne at fullback. Does Payne not count as a project?

    Payne is 100% a project the same as Aki, the horse has bolted on that one though. I don't see Payne getting many more caps thankfully for a variety of reasons.

    People seem to think that projects are grand because most of them will only get a few caps. Complete nonsense in my opinion. 1 cap is too many, if we don't need these players why are we persisting with this bollocks of a system?

    Give me a half-decent Irish player over a good project any day. I'd rather see Rory Scannell play for Ireland than Aki. I'd rather see Luke Marshall than Aki and Marshall has tits for hands. There is no need for Stander either. There is no need for Payne (admittedly there is a valid argument that there once was). JGP is a project, I'm sure he'll be given some token cap at some point which is another bad joke. Bleyendaal will be brought in eventually too for a few token caps.

    Fair enough, some people support project players being brought in to make us a better team. The same people cannot turn around and say it's for the betterment of Irish rugby to select foreign players ahead of Irish ones. At least call it what it really is, exploitive opportunism where the spirit of what the national team is supposed to be is diluted in exchange for a few decent players.

    I remember there was an Ireland player who mentioned it was annoying to see these project players drop in to squads ahead of guys who'd gone through the system from a young age (might have been Luke Fitz, I can't remember). Hard to argue with that.


  • #113
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    So why are we continuing to sign more project players?

    Because the provinces need players and there's a chance they'll go on to become an Irish international.

    Probably the only one we signed this year who looks to potentially reach that standard is Lowe. By the time he's there of course some of the current dudes will be gone and he'll likely be the last before the 5 year rulers start to filter in.

    There's going to be a gap sometimes around 2020 and 2023 where guys aren't going to be qualifying as often while the new rule starts to apply, so by the time the first 5 year guy comes in there'll probably be very few left. Payne will be 38, Stander and Aki will be 33, Lowe will be 31.


  • #114
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Here is a direct quote from awec himself in 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056839263&page=174

    Yea? And? :confused:

    As I said earlier, it was much easier to accept back then when it was a one-off. The floodgates have opened, it has become ridiculous.

    I would be happy enough if Payne never got capped for Ireland again.


  • #115
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    At least call it what it really is, exploitive opportunism where the spirit of what the national team is supposed to be is diluted in exchange for a few decent players.

    No.

    The spirit of what you think the national team is supposed to be is diluted. You're speaking for yourself there.


  • #116
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Because the provinces need players and there's a chance they'll go on to become an Irish international.

    Probably the only one we signed this year who looks to potentially reach that standard is Lowe. By the time he's there of course some of the current dudes will be gone and he'll likely be the last before the 5 year rulers start to filter in.

    There's going to be a gap sometimes around 2020 and 2023 where guys aren't going to be qualifying as often while the new rule starts to apply, so by the time the first 5 year guy comes in there'll probably be very few left. Payne will be 38, Stander and Aki will be 33, Lowe will be 31.

    Oh great, James Lowe playing for Ireland. Can't wait to see it. Looking forward to seeing what young Irish player misses out on caps so that this lad can be dropped in instead.

    I'll guess we just have to accept this as "Protecting Irish Rugby".


  • #117
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No.

    The spirit of what you think the national team is supposed to be is diluted. You're speaking for yourself there.

    Well the Ireland national team is the team of Irish players. Are you saying it's something else?


  • #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Here is a direct quote from awec himself in 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056839263&page=174
    awec wrote: »
    Yea? And? :confused:

    As I said earlier, it was much easier to accept back then when it was a one-off. The floodgates have opened, it has become ridiculous.

    I would be happy enough if Payne never got capped for Ireland again.
    awec wrote: »
    I don't give a stuff about other unions.

    I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

    "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    So you hate the IRFU for doing it bar that time when you wanted them to do it?


  • #119
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Oh great, James Lowe playing for Ireland. Can't wait to see it. Looking forward to seeing what young Irish player misses out on caps so that this lad can be dropped in instead.

    I'll guess we just have to accept this as "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    He's going to be playing for Leinster for 3 years first. And he'll be contributing to Irish rugby that entire time. And it's a position of weakness that Leinster have filled by signing one of the more exciting wingers in Super Rugby. I don't see the problem. I'd have much more of a problem capping someone like JGP (assuming he doesn't improve) where it's a bit of a journeyman guy being capped. Not sure how I'd feel about someone like Ludik who would be in the middle of those two.
    awec wrote: »
    Well the Ireland national team is the team of Irish players. Are you saying it's something else?

    For me it's a team that represents Irish rugby. And I've grown up in Irish rugby and I've been coached and played with guys from all over the world who have their roots down and are totally dedicated to their clubs/provinces.


  • #120
    connemara man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭connemara man


    awec wrote: »
    Oh great, James Lowe playing for Ireland. Can't wait to see it. Looking forward to seeing what young Irish player misses out on caps so that this lad can be dropped in instead.

    I'll guess we just have to accept this as "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    He'll only play for Irish rugby if there are no better Irish wingers. You want to put players in a bubble fine but if you're someone with international aspirations you need to be better or as good as the players you'll be coming up against and if you aren't better than a project should you be playing internationally anyway?


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  • #121
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

    Good one lads.


  • #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    awec wrote: »
    So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

    Good one lads.

    No there will be endless debate and disagreement like there was when Ferg got picked ahead of Gilroy.


  • #123
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

    Good one lads.

    Completely in favour of it. I think 3 years was probably too quick, but he's in now and that's that. You can't just pick him and then shut him back out when Ringrose comes back because he was born somewhere else.

    Now that I know WR have addressed the broken system to a level I'm happy with, I'm completely behind anyone else who qualifies. If its Aki at 12 and Ludik at 13 who are our best partnership then pick them.


  • #124
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

    Good one lads.

    We actually almost had that precise situation this year with a project player and a young Irish player competing for the 13 jersey (but injury kept them apart). I'll quote .ak in the week of the England test this year:
    Ringrose hasn't done anything to show he's a better option at 13 than Payne

    Most sensible people realised what Payne can bring to the 13 jersey and were accepting of him slotting back in before RK was injured.


  • #125
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    awec wrote: »
    So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

    Good one lads.

    Aki is good, but I don't think he's world-class.

    If Ringrose can't get ahead of him, then we have to re-assess our opinions of Ringrose.

    If Aki turns out to be world-class, then we'll get over our disappointment for Ringrose pretty quick.


  • #126
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »
    Yea? And? :confused:

    As I said earlier, it was much easier to accept back then when it was a one-off. The floodgates have opened, it has become ridiculous.

    I would be happy enough if Payne never got capped for Ireland again.
    You're completely ignoring the reality that the prospect of becoming a capped international is how we bridge the financial gap between what we can realistically offer players and what the competition can. For the provinces.

    So far, only three project players have had any meaningful caps for Ireland. There are six of these in Ulster of which only one has been cappped to any great extent. Ah You, Diack and Ludik are all eligible as well.


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  • #127
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Completely in favour of it. I think 3 years was probably too quick, but he's in now and that's that. You can't just pick him and then shut him back out when Ringrose comes back because he was born somewhere else.

    Now that I know WR have addressed the broken system to a level I'm happy with, I'm completely behind anyone else who qualifies. If its Aki at 12 and Ludik at 13 who are our best partnership then pick them.

    Well then we'll agree to disagree on this. Personally I cannot just accept watering down irish rugby for the sake of a few decent players.

    We expect young players to remain loyal to irish rugby but don't show the same in return.

    "Play really well, if you're lucky enough that the IRFU don't import someone else to play your position you could be an important Ireland player some day."

    If Ringrose loses out on caps because of Aki it's a real shame. It's not Ringrose's fault that the IRFU imported Aki, it wasn't even his province that needed the import, but he's the one who will potentially get fewer caps than he should have. Or Henshaw, it could be him missing out. Or Scannell. Or McCloskey. Pick your Irish centre, it holds true for them all. It's a shame Stander gets picked ahead of Irish players too. It's all grand though, cause we're a decent enough team and who gives a stuff so long as we're winning matches.

    There is no excuse for any project player to be an Irish 23 these days. There is no excuse for Ireland to sign any more projects.


  • #128
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Well then we'll agree to disagree on this. Personally I cannot just accept watering down irish rugby for the sake of a few decent players.

    We expect young players to remain loyal to irish rugby but don't show the same in return.

    "Play really well, if you're lucky enough that the IRFU don't import someone else to play your position you could be an important Ireland player some day."

    If Ringrose loses out on caps because of Aki it's a real shame. It's not Ringrose's fault that the IRFU imported Aki, it wasn't even his province that needed the import, but he's the one who will potentially get fewer caps than he should have. Or Henshaw, it could be him missing out. Or Scannell. Or McCloskey. Pick your Irish centre, it holds true for them all. It's a shame Stander gets picked ahead of Irish players too. It's all grand though, cause we're a decent enough team and who gives a stuff so long as we're winning matches.

    There is no excuse for any project player to be an Irish 23 these days. There is no excuse for Ireland to sign any more projects.

    1) We're not watering down Irish rugby.

    2) It's not Ringrose's fault that Aki is at Connacht. It's not Darren Cave's fault that Ringrose emerged at Leinster, does that mean Darren Cave should start as well? It's never anyone's fault that someone better than them is available.

    All of this "watering down Irish rugby" ****e is particularly hilarious given how you were arguing endlessly for Pienaar to be kept at Ulster.


  • #129
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    So why are we continuing to sign more project players?

    How many of those are being looked at as project players and how many fall into the definition of project player regardless of what the IRFU view them as? A project player is technically just a foreign player who is uncapped at international level. Given the fact that the big 3 rarely cap players playing abroad then a sizeable proportion of foreign players are "project players" by definition but will never be considered for Ireland unless absolutely necessary.

    JGP for example is technically a project player. But he's behind Murray, McGrath, Marmion and Cooney for Ireland at the very least. He's never likely to get capped unless there's some bizarre set of injuries/illnesses.


  • #130
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Jesus if Payne and Aki ever get picked together Awec's head will explode.


  • #131
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    1) We're not watering down Irish rugby.

    2) It's not Ringrose's fault that Aki is at Connacht. It's not Darren Cave's fault that Ringrose emerged at Leinster, does that mean Darren Cave should start as well? It's never anyone's fault that someone better than them is available.

    All of this "watering down Irish rugby" ****e is particularly hilarious given how you were arguing endlessly for Pienaar to be kept at Ulster.

    Well now you're just being silly. Is Garry Ringrose a project player?


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  • #132
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    connemara man wrote: »
    I'd say if you went as far as 4 deep the numbers wouldn't jump dramatically

    Next level down would be something like:

    Cronin Cronin Bealham
    ??? Holland
    Reidy JOD Henry

    Cooney Byrne
    Reid Marshall
    Wootton Hanrahan McFadden

    So that's just 1 extra project, maybe 2 depending on who the other lock is. But as a small country with just 4 professional teams that's still pretty good going that we can look at having 90+% representation with 4 full XVs.


  • #133
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Well now you're just being silly. Is Garry Ringrose a project player?

    No. I'm pointing out that it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else being a project player. Just because a player is born here doesn't give them a right to play for Ireland, they have to be good enough.


  • #134
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No. I'm pointing out that it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else being a project player. Just because a player is born here doesn't give them a right to play for Ireland, they have to be good enough.

    It has everything to do with it. The whole point of contention is project players.


  • #135
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Personally I cannot just accept watering down irish rugby for the sake of a few decent players.

    tenor.gif?itemid=5546330


  • #136
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    It has everything to do with it. The whole point of contention is project players.

    The rest of IBFs post is relevant, not just the bit you highlighted.


  • #137
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Jesus if Payne and Aki ever get picked together Awec's head will explode.

    Funnily enough if It's Aki with McCloskey and Payne at FB instead of Kearney it might not be that big of a problem....


  • #138
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    It has everything to do with it. The whole point of contention is project players.

    No. You're saying that its not Garry Ringrose's fault that he can't play for Ireland because someone else is available. I'm saying, "duh". It has nothing to do with the validity of project players.


  • #139
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Funnily enough if It's Aki with McCloskey and Payne at FB instead of Kearney it might not be that big of a problem....

    I resent that to be honest. It would still be a problem.


  • #140
    connemara man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭connemara man


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Next level down would be something like:

    Cronin Cronin Bealham
    ??? Holland
    Reidy JOD Henry

    Cooney Byrne
    Reid Marshall
    Wootton Hanrahan McFadden

    So that's just 1 extra project, maybe 2 depending on who the other lock is. But as a small country with just 4 professional teams that's still pretty good going that we can look at having 90+% representation with 4 full XVs.

    Well I'd say Buckley Heff Bealham but I won't split hairs ;) but the fact I can shows the depth there. I'd also add Niyi and Leader into the back three conversation 4th &5th choice like it's a stupid conversation ( in so much as that of your not in the squad does it really matter) but it shows the depth

    Cannon is having a very good season in Connacht. Instrumental in the lineout I wouldn't say he's ready for international play by any means but he always seems to up his game as required.

    But I agree the project player taking spots myth can be done away with very quickly with a position by position breakdown like this


  • #141
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No. You're saying that its not Garry Ringrose's fault that he can't play for Ireland because someone else is available. I'm saying, "duh". It has nothing to do with the validity of project players.

    It has everything to do with it.

    You are removing the entire point of contention to try and make your argument, it's ridiculous.

    Of course the argument is "duh" if you strip out the fact that he's a project player. The fact remains he is a project player and the fact that he is a project player is the whole point. You can't just ignore it for convenience.


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  • #142
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    It has everything to do with it.

    You are removing the entire point of contention to try and make your argument, it's ridiculous.

    Of course the argument is "duh" if you strip out the fact that he's a project player. The fact remains he is a project player and the fact that he is a project player is the whole point. You can't just ignore it for convenience.

    I've yet to see why it's more unfair. You haven't argued that at all, you're just saying its a fact.


  • #143
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I've yet to see why it's more unfair. You haven't argued that at all, you're just saying its a fact.

    Aki is not Irish, you know, the thing that's been contentious with these project players for years now?

    Non-Irish players trumping Irish players for Irish national team. What's confusing about the issue?


  • #144
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Aki is not Irish, you know, the thing that's been contentious with these project players for years now?

    Non-Irish players trumping Irish players for Irish national team. What's confusing about the issue?

    He's qualified for Ireland! And it's "not his fault" he's IQ. So from now on he should be picked if he's committed himself. Ringrose doesn't deserve a single cap if he isn't better than the guy in front of him.

    He's not "watering down" Irish rugby. He's adding to it. You just don't want him to for personal reasons and you're angry that everyone else won't subscribe to those reasons.


  • #145
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The fact that we've virtually no Irish head coaches at provincial or national level bar Leo is of greater concern to me than Aki getting his game with Ireland.


  • #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    awec wrote: »
    I resent that to be honest. It would still be a problem.

    You resent it and yet have repeated examples of advocating for it in your posting history.

    At this stage you are disagreeing with yourself more than the rest of us are so will leave it there.


  • #147
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Aki is not Irish, you know, the thing that's been contentious with these project players for years now?

    Non-Irish players trumping Irish players for Irish national team. What's confusing about the issue?

    While I totally understand the sentiment and probably would feel a bit aggrieved for Ringrose if Aki ended up taking his place it hasn't become a real issue for me yet at all. If we have 1 or 2 foreign players in our 23 then I can handle it. Other countries who are far bigger than us and have far larger playing populations have that, and sometimes more, playing for them. That tells me that relative to other countries we're actually doing a good job developing local talent. And that job is getting better and better with guys like James Ryan pushing guys like Roux down the depth chart.

    It's clear to me that the IRFU want us to become as self sufficient as possible. That's exactly why they have limits on foreigners that the provinces bring in and why they are pushing guys to move around the provinces more. Both of which we have seen clear evidence of in Ulster at scrum half. The policies the IRFU have in place are there to do the thing you want them to do. Reduce the need for project players in Ireland. Yet when the situation suits you're happy to cry foul about those policies on the one hand while saying they aren't doing enough on the other. It's quite hypocritical tbh.


  • #148
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    if the irfu tried to live without projects I would imagine they would have to ban niqs in all provinces to give the extra irish born lads a chance.


  • #149
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    if the irfu tried to live without projects I would imagine they would have to ban niqs in all provinces to give the extra irish born lads a chance.
    It's not as though the Irish squad is stuck for players, it's the provinces that have the problem and the projects are the answer.

    You look at where they are filling in at provinical level and it's obvious why they are there. The quid pro quo is that they can become eligible, but there's no guarantee that they'll ever be selected.


  • #150
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Ah jaysus are we talking about project players in multiple threads now. :(


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  • #151
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Ah jaysus are we talking about project players in multiple threads now. :(

    Did you know that Clint Newland having only played for the Maoiri all blacks was technically a project player.


This discussion has been closed.
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