Farm science.

Upstream · 02-09-2017 10:53pm

Floki wrote: »

Soil organic matter was first thought to be from plant residue in soil but it has now been proven to be made by soil bacteria that sink below the top three inches of soil and are just stored there in this anaerobic environment held there like in a bank account.

There's a lot going on in living soils. Scientists like Elaine Ingham and Sara Wright have shown that grass roots send out food into the soil in the form of simple carbohydrates, root exudates. The soil fungi process this into a form of organic matter called glomalin.
Glomalin was only discovered recently, in the late 90's, but is thought to hold a third of the total carbon found in pasture based soils. The bacteria and fungi involved in this web provide nutrients back to the grass in return for the food provided by the roots.

Floki · 07-09-2017 9:48pm

Someone else that worked with Elaine Ingham is Joel Williams.
I only just discovered him myself this evening.:o

yosemitesam1 · 09-09-2017 8:30am

Floki wrote: »

For the life of me I can't find the article I was reading a few nights ago but it went something like this.

Soil bacteria are responsible for all life on this planet.
Soil bacteria are part of an eco system which includes viruses and nematodes and they all live and die together. Bacteria are broken down into different groups, mineral eaters, plant eaters, other bacteria eaters and plant root symbiotic bacteria. Then you viruses that infect eat bacteria and bacteria that eat viruses and the same for nematodes. Nematodes eating bacteria and nematodes eating those nematodes and then bacteria that can eat those nematodes. Basically it's a whole eco system and each keeps each other in check and no group should take over in a healthy diverse soil.

All plants have unique bacteria that help that plant grow and access food for that plant species. The same goes for minerals in the soil the bacteria that eat that mineral are unique to that mineral and so on and so on.

The beneficial bacteria to agriculture are the aerobic ones in the soil and they are usually just in the top three inches of the soil and they feed on minerals, plant residue and each other.
Soil organic matter was first thought to be from plant residue in soil but it has now been proven to be made by soil bacteria that sink below the top three inches of soil and are just stored there in this anaerobic environment held there like in a bank account.
When land is tilled or ploughed this stored organic matter is once again exposed to oxygen and the lions or bacteria eating bacteria move in fast and eat the organic matter and the cycle moves on. Nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium are produced from this bacteria eating the organic matter and bacteria eating bacteria and nematodes eating bacteria and nematodes eating nematodes and made available in a form that plants or should I say the plant's roots bacteria can use and then the plant. But the more tilling or ploughing the more organic matter used up and pretty soon the bang is gone from the buck and the soil is not freshened up like the ploughman used to say in the past.

I also read a tweet from a conference in the last few days that ruminant parasites look to be less prevalent or should I say are getting eaten in the soil in very diverse soil eco systems.

Sìn è.

The foundation of that ecosystem is plants pumping out sugars into the surrounding soil in exchange for nutrients. If nutrients are very freely available plants cut off this supply because there's no need for them to waste resources, also what then happens in a natural grassland would be a change in species to ones better at cutting off microbes and keeping as much as possible to themselves.
This is where the trade off has to happen between maximizing yields and maximizing soil health as the two of these cannot be achieved together in an Irish context anyway.
Also the healthiest place for a plant root to be growing is in the area surrounding roots from totally different species. This is because an awful lot of the beneficial microbes are not highly adapted to one species but parasites/diseases are very specialized.

Fungi are much more important than bacteria for contributing to soil on because they grow out hairs into the soil and work their way into aggregates where their remains can't be readily broken down. Bacteria are mainly stuck on the surface of aggregates and eaten when they die.

Water John · 09-09-2017 10:02am

As Floki pointed out, UCC are at the front end of research on gut bacteria. there is a product called Alforex, designed by them.
It's an over the counter pill, non prescription, that one can take, about a euro/pill/day, sometimes on special offer also. It's supposed to be good for anyone who immune system is compromised in any way.

Been reading this thread from the start. Some very interesting stuff here, thanks.

Floki · 09-09-2017 10:51am

Water John wrote: »

Been reading this thread from the start. Some very interesting stuff here, thanks.

Don't be afraid to post any interesting stuff you come across yourself Water John. No matter how outlandish.:)
Or indeed conventional.

Floki · 09-09-2017 12:12pm

How about this for a theory?

I got calcium (calcite) lime spread on all the fields last year bar one.
The cows have milked exceptionally well volume wise this year but whenever they went onto this field the volume dropped and rose again when moved onto another.
This field would has grown a lot of grass I even took paddocks off it for silage but the litres never came off it the same as the rest.

The theory is bacteria ( there's a name on these bacteria but I don't know what they are) eat the calcium lime (anyone that knows good quality lime is ground up like flour and this stuff was no exception) and then provide a base/food for other bacteria. But bacteria are hungry buggers in that they need nitrogen and will take it any form that they can be it ammonium or nitrous oxide. So much that the grass is not growing to its optimum because the bacteria are taking everything it can.

Now this is where cattle parasites come in. The cow dungs on the ground and the larvae have to spend some time below ground to complete their life cycle. My bacteria see the larvae as a nitrogen/protein source and will then attack and consume the larvae. Bye bye larvae.

So back to my own situation.
The worm burden on the land that got lime was low and the cows milked well but the worm burden on the land that got no lime was high and then they dropped and then back up again when going again on the low burden land.

I have got my milk test for worms back and since I've spread lime the reports have dropped. I posted the results before in the dairy thread.

But back to the bacteria consuming nitrogen. Not to worry because you will get that back again available to the grass when they die or get consumed by other bacteria or nematodes and usually this is around end of july, August. This is whats known as mineralization.

Water John · 09-09-2017 2:52pm

When you say, calcite, what exactly is it's diff from, what we term ground limestone, granlime, or indeed hydrated lime? Just to show my ignorance here.

Brown Podzol · 13-09-2017 9:38pm

The great nutrient collapse
The atmosphere is literally changing the food we eat, for the worse. And almost nobody is paying attention.

http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511?lo=ap_a1

Buford T. Justice XIX · 01-10-2017 2:57pm

Scandinavia’s earliest farmers exchanged terminology with Indo-Europeans

A little bit about the formation of European languages and the origins of some of our words like cow, horse, sheep, milk and wool.

http://humanities.ku.dk/news/2017/scandinavias-earliest-farmers-exchanged-terminology-with-indo-europeans/

Buford T. Justice XIX · 05-10-2017 2:01pm

I came across this article discussing neonic effects on bees and how the different studies can be manipulated and exaggerated to suit certain agendas.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/09/26/two-neonicotinoid-bumble-bee-studies-science-can-massaged/

Waffletraktor · 05-10-2017 2:19pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I came across this article discussing neonic effects on bees and how the different studies can be manipulated and exaggerated to suit certain agendas.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/09/26/two-neonicotinoid-bumble-bee-studies-science-can-massaged/

It's been known since late 2014 it was a fix by those leading the research, communication between them has been distributed in that community. No difference to the who's organisation who announced glyphosate as potentially dangerous, the lead on that litterally ignored the data sets.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 05-10-2017 3:19pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

It's been known since late 2014 it was a fix by those leading the research, communication between them has been distributed in that community. No difference to the who's organisation who announced glyphosate as potentially dangerous, the lead on that litterally ignored the data sets.

It's getting too common these days, generate misleading headlines or data sets and get more funding while genuine research which doesn't generate massive publicity gets reduced funding despite being more useful but not self-serving.

yosemitesam1 · 05-10-2017 8:48pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I came across this article discussing neonic effects on bees and how the different studies can be manipulated and exaggerated to suit certain agendas.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/09/26/two-neonicotinoid-bumble-bee-studies-science-can-massaged/

With honeybee's the two biggest stressors are diet and varroa. It's when these are not taken care of that pesticides can help tip them over the edge.
The chemicals allowed in Europe are very easy on bees compared to the older stuff which would kill whole hives in a few days.

Birdnuts · 06-10-2017 12:26am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

With honeybee's the two biggest stressors are diet and varroa. It's when these are not taken care of that pesticides can help tip them over the edge.
The chemicals allowed in Europe are very easy on bees compared to the older stuff which would kill whole hives in a few days.

The loss of wild flower meadows and other farmland habitats is a huge issue for honeybees and other pollinators. Sadly the likes of REPS and GLAS have totally failed to address such issues:(

yosemitesam1 · 06-10-2017 8:50am

Birdnuts wrote: »

The loss of wild flower meadows and other farmland habitats is a huge issue for honeybees and other pollinators. Sadly the likes of REPS and GLAS have totally failed to address such issues:(

100% agree, that's a much more important issue than trying to get glyphosate or neonics banned.

Waffletraktor · 06-10-2017 9:28am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Birdnuts wrote: »

The loss of wild flower meadows and other farmland habitats is a huge issue for honeybees and other pollinators. Sadly the likes of REPS and GLAS have totally failed to address such issues:(

100% agree, that's a much more important issue than trying to get glyphosate or neonics banned.

It won't be long before efa's become compulsory, especially for likes of farms availing of fertiliser derogations.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 06-10-2017 10:10am

Birdnuts wrote: »

The loss of wild flower meadows and other farmland habitats is a huge issue for honeybees and other pollinators. Sadly the likes of REPS and GLAS have totally failed to address such issues:(

There's lots of good research being done on issues like that.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/09/26/1620229114.full

yosemitesam1 · 06-10-2017 10:27am

Waffletraktor wrote: »

It won't be long before efa's become compulsory, especially for likes of farms availing of fertiliser derogations.

That holds the answer to all the problems with Irish farming.
Increase sward diversity to a reasonable level and pollinators will benefit, more beetles, worms, birds, more carbon stored in the soil, NOx emissions could be almost fully eliminated, better water quality, increased water infiltration/holding and probably a few more benefits too...

MF290 · 06-10-2017 1:56pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I came across this article discussing neonic effects on bees and how the different studies can be manipulated and exaggerated to suit certain agendas.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/09/26/two-neonicotinoid-bumble-bee-studies-science-can-massaged/

just looking at those articles it's impossible to know what to believe... there's a few articles linking Jon Entine, who wrote the article, to monsanto. Then said article could be written by some activism crowd who are anti-monsanto. There are so many vested interests

Birdnuts · 06-10-2017 8:37pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

That holds the answer to all the problems with Irish farming.
Increase sward diversity to a reasonable level and pollinators will benefit, more beetles, worms, birds, more carbon stored in the soil, NOx emissions could be almost fully eliminated, better water quality, increased water infiltration/holding and probably a few more benefits too...

I believe someone is doing that research at Lyons with very positive results in terms of reduced chemical fert etc. inputs and better animal performance with herbal swards compared to pure ryegrass leys. Worryingly though I also heard that her funding is under threat which frankly if true is a disgrace and would confirm a lot about the attitude to such matters by officialdom in this country:mad:

White Clover · 06-10-2017 9:10pm

Would anyone care to advise on varieties to establish a herbal ley in a new reseed. Heavy land in a high rainfall area. Low stocking rate.
Thanks in advance.

Birdnuts · 06-10-2017 11:12pm

White Clover wrote: »

Would anyone care to advise on varieties to establish a herbal ley in a new reseed. Heavy land in a high rainfall area. Low stocking rate.
Thanks in advance.

You'd be looking at herb species like chicory, red clover and birdfoot trefoil. In terms of grass species for that mix, the likes of meadow foxtail and timothy would be best.

yosemitesam1 · 07-10-2017 3:45am

White Clover wrote: »

Would anyone care to advise on varieties to establish a herbal ley in a new reseed. Heavy land in a high rainfall area. Low stocking rate.
Thanks in advance.

https://archive.org/details/cliftonparksyste00elli

Have a look at that, not everything is 100% but a lot of very good info in it.
Cocksfoot, timothy and meadow fescue with a small bit of ryegrass.
Chicory, plantain, red/white/alsike clover, birds foot trefoil and maybe a bit of yarrow

Buford T. Justice XIX · 21-10-2017 9:24pm

https://www.thegwpf.com/scientific-establishment-rocked-by-new-science-scandal/

That's a bit disturbing.

yosemitesam1 · 29-11-2017 10:26am

https://onpasture.com/2017/11/27/plants-are-better-than-subsoilers-for-reducing-soil-compaction/

Roots are preferable to steel for solving compaction

Buford T. Justice XIX · 30-11-2017 10:13pm

There's an interesting link in the tweet to a meta analysis of white clover inclusion in ryegrass awards.

https://twitter.com/jdairyscience/status/933475463766294529

Upstream · 04-12-2017 1:34am

Some days science is just a load of pants...

Farmers cotton on to new soil test using their Y-fronts

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/farmers-cotton-on-tonew-soil-test-using-their-yfronts-36370616.html

Buford T. Justice XIX · 06-12-2017 10:56pm

A counter argument on the red meat causes cancer findings.

http://campaignforaccuracyinpublichealthresearch.com/red-meat/case-study/?platform=hootsuite

Floki · 06-12-2017 11:44pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A counter argument on the red meat causes cancer findings.

http://campaignforaccuracyinpublichealthresearch.com/red-meat/case-study/?platform=hootsuite

I'm not sure it should be included in this thread so I'm not going to link it.
But search 40 year old vegan dies of heart attack on YouTube.
I would link it but the commentator has left science behind since becoming famous for this clip.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 08-12-2017 8:23pm

I came across this earlier, about where the European Bison originated from. Apparently, they are a hybrid of the extinct Steppe Bison and domesticated cattle.

http://www.dynastynow.com/2017/12/higgs-bison-is-missing-link-in-european.html

yosemitesam1 · 11-12-2017 2:16pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rhDq_VBhMWg

Worth a watch even though it's a different climate. The slide at 1130 is very relevant though if you don't want to be reseeding and lashing out fertilizer..

Floki · 11-12-2017 5:30pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rhDq_VBhMWg

Worth a watch even though it's a different climate. The slide at 1130 is very relevant though if you don't want to be reseeding and lashing out fertilizer..

Bullet points for me from that presentation were...
1) Find out information for yourself and don't be swayed by vested or ignorant (not truely knowing) interests.
2) Paddock rotational one day grazing are the most efficient carbon usage of land available.
3) Heavily stocked grazing ground uses up a lot more carbon than it releases and makes a mockery of commentators calling for a carbon tax on farmers with grazing animals when the opposite should be the case.
4) Taller plants grow longer roots (the same as a tree) but should not be left too long to make the plant too difficult to be grazed by that animal. Rotation of silage ground would be best in that case or take a cut off all ground once in the year.
5) Cover cropping of tillage ground in the winter or not leaving bare ground and reducing or eliminating the plough helps the buggers underground.

Our city dwellers and decision makers should have a gander at this before being so quick to look for taxes/income.

Waffletraktor · 11-12-2017 9:46pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

https://onpasture.com/2017/11/27/plants-are-better-than-subsoilers-for-reducing-soil-compaction/

Roots are preferable to steel for solving compaction

Two fields here called 'Labour in vain' and 'Ploughmans hearthbreak' more than welcome to try the theory on.

blue5000 · 12-12-2017 7:24pm

https://www.journals.elsevier.com/geoderma/awards/best-paper-award-2016-the-winners

Not often that we get a freebie from science direct, perfect for anyone who wants a bit of light bedtime reading.

yosemitesam1 · 12-12-2017 8:27pm

blue5000 wrote: »

https://www.journals.elsevier.com/geoderma/awards/best-paper-award-2016-the-winners

Not often that we get a freebie from science direct, perfect for anyone who wants a bit of light bedtime reading.

Libgen.io has nearly all the books and journal articles published by them for free if you ever want anything

Gawddawggonnit · 13-12-2017 8:03am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Libgen.io has nearly all the books and journal articles published by them for free if you ever want anything

Excellent. Thanks.

Siamsa Sessions · 15-12-2017 3:06pm

Hi all,

I'm starting Teagasc's distance learning green cert for non-ag degree holders in February.

Could anyone recommend some pre-course reading material? e.g would the ag science book for the Leaving Cert be relevant? Or would first-year college books be more useful?

I asked the Teagasc office but it was only the admin I spoke to. She seems sound but couldn't suggest any books that might be useful in advance of the course.

Thanks.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 01-01-2018 11:36pm

Not strictly farming related but it appeared in a conversation about veganism and confirmation bias in decision making.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Buford T. Justice XIX · 05-01-2018 11:31pm

I came across this link tonight. Mark Lynas was an anti GMO campaigner who changed over to being an advocate 5 years ago. He's giving the speech in the link to the 2018 Oxford farming conference to try to reconcile both sides of the campaign.

http://www.marklynas.org/2018/01/mark-lynas-speech-to-the-oxford-farming-conference-2018/

20silkcut · 06-01-2018 2:35pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Not strictly farming related but it appeared in a conversation about veganism and confirmation bias in decision making.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds/amp?__twitter_impression=true

It is advantageous to have a certain amount of inertia in your opinions and beliefs. If you were to instantly do an about turn every time you were presented with new information you would not survive long and people would not be long taking advantage of you. Every sales man that comes into your yard would have a field day with you.

yosemitesam1 · 09-01-2018 12:33pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j3SvG2nBCTM

Worth a look from about 3 minutes. Has some nice drawings of the differences to the soil a mix of sward species can make. Doesn't mention it in the video but maintaining/improving soil structure is a big effect.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 09-01-2018 3:28pm

A slightly different way of looking at methane reductions

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/100389969/agriculture-is-not-the-villain-when-it-comes-to-new-zealands-emissions

Say my name · 09-01-2018 7:17pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A slightly different way of looking at methane reductions

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/100389969/agriculture-is-not-the-villain-when-it-comes-to-new-zealands-emissions

Just as a side note to all this talk of emissions and climate change.

The mantra from some people is to plant more trees and take more carbon from the atmosphere.
But the carbon dioxide that tree takes in and converts to carbon is well and good but it's pointless if that tree falls over and rots and emitts methane and carbon dioxide or burning that timber releases carbon dioxide. You're not really solving anything just doing a carbon and methane cycle.
Obviously it's better to not be burning fossil fuels and leave them where they are.

yosemitesam1 · 09-01-2018 7:40pm

Say my name wrote: »

Just as a side note to all this talk of emissions and climate change.

The mantra from some people is to plant more trees and take more carbon from the atmosphere.
But the carbon dioxide that tree takes in and converts to carbon is well and good but it's pointless if that tree falls over and rots and emitts methane and carbon dioxide or burning that timber releases carbon dioxide. You're not really solving anything just doing a carbon and methane cycle.
Obviously it's better to not be burning fossil fuels and leave them where they are.

In an Irish context anyway there's actually no net gain and possibly a loss when grass is planted. Only what officially leads to carbon sequestration and real carbon sequestration aren't always in line...

Say my name · 09-01-2018 7:54pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

In an Irish context anyway there's actually no net gain and possibly a loss when grass is planted. Only what officially leads to carbon sequestration and real carbon sequestration aren't always in line...

A question for you.

When we're talking about plant carbon sequestration (into the soil).
We're talking about in a aerobic soil environment.
What happens when that soil gets flooded?

Does the carbon turn to methane (rot) or does it turn into anaerobic carbon?

You're hell bent on grass.;)
Ask any ploughman (or woman) in Ireland which ground he prefers and takes less diesel to plough.
Long-term pasture or continuous ploughed tillage ground.

yosemitesam1 · 09-01-2018 8:15pm

Say my name wrote: »

A question for you.

When we're talking about plant carbon sequestration (into the soil).
We're talking about in a aerobic soil environment.
What happens when that soil gets flooded?

Does the carbon turn to methane (rot) or does it turn into anaerobic carbon?

You're hell bent on grass.;)
Ask any ploughman (or woman) in Ireland which ground he prefers and takes less diesel to plough.
Long-term pasture or continuous ploughed tillage ground.

I'd say very little happens, it would be almost always too cold for much microbe activity, even in the summer it would be nothing compared to what would happen in Asia

Waffletraktor · 09-01-2018 8:17pm

Say my name wrote: »

You're hell bent on grass.;)
Ask any ploughman (or woman) in Ireland which ground he prefers and takes less diesel to plough.
Long-term pasture or continuous ploughed tillage ground.

Sher when your continually pummeling the top 6 or 8 inches into submission with lots of steel and diesel oil how can it have any substance other than soup to it.

Say my name · 09-01-2018 8:26pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Sher when your continually pummeling the top 6 or 8 inches into submission with lots of steel and diesel oil how can it have any substance other than soup to it.

I wouldn't go that far but you're right.
Although concrete would be a better comparison than soup.
(Although depends on the soil type).

Edit: if anyone plays golf. Portloaise golf course is supposed to be fed with a made up tea.

Waffletraktor · 09-01-2018 11:38pm

Say my name wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far but you're right.
Although concrete would be a better comparison than soup.
(Although depends on the soil type).

Don't get me wrong we did as much of it as anyone for a time.
I remember in '13 after ploughing man's ground in june it baked, hard. Left to weather for 3 months then multiple passes of cultivations it still resembled lumps around the size of your fist at the end of Sept/early Oct.
These days take a more relaxed approach compared to the maxi(min)-til days that put BG seed through the whole profile.

yosemitesam1 · 11-01-2018 2:11pm

Who spreads what by sector

Farm science.

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