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Burning the Poppy - A thread.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Aegir wrote: »
    you two have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


    What more can I say to that well thought considered rebuttal...

    Go on then. Show me where I have gone wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    DeVore wrote: »
    Its not the "easier life" approach. (Ask anyone here, they'll tell you I don't take the easy road heheh). I just felt like I didnt have a firm reason not to and politeness is something I value. Also I have a leaning towards honouring the men and women of the RAF during WW2 and the soldiers in WW1 who included many Irishmen so it was no harsh task to wear it. The organiser had a tray of them the same way we might have a tray of shamrock on paddys day and yeah, if the Queen herself was here I'd expect her to wear some and be unimpressed if she didnt.

    If the organisers had of told you the poppies also went towards supporting British army veterans who were in NI would you have still put it on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Burn baby burn a hateful symbol of murder colonisation and oppression the irony here is of course that many of those horrified by the burning of a poppy have no problem with children being incinerated in britain various wars aerial bombing campaigns etc


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I quoted somebody who actually fought in WW1 Aegir. Are you are saying you know better?
    He went to his grave, ashamed of the poppy antics. If that isn't a call to 'hold, enough', then i don't know what is.
    How many bullies like the guy in Bristol or those forcing this on young sportspeople do you wish to enfranchise?
    Commemoration is not the problem here, it is something else entirely.

    who is the guy in Bristol bullying? is he dragging people in to his pub, forcing them to wear a poppy and making them buy a pint?

    You really come out with some dramatic bollocks sometimes.
    What more can I say to that well thought considered rebuttal...

    Go on then. Show me where I have gone wrong.

    there is no point, because you have already made up your mind and you have no interest in changing it.

    all through my childhood, we were taught about the Lions led by donkies and the futility and stupidity of WWI, hell Richard Curtis even wrote an incredibly popular TV sit com about it.

    but yeah, something something glorious deaths and James McClean blah blah blah.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    The whole wearing of symbols thing is creeping into Irish politics too. Just look at TDs the next time they are on TV. A large number are now walking advertisements for a myriad of campaigns and sentiments. It is unbecoming.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Aegir wrote: »


    there is no point, because you have already made up your mind and you have no interest in changing it.

    all through my childhood, we were taught about the Lions led by donkies and the futility and stupidity of WWI, hell Richard Curtis even wrote an incredibly popular TV sit com about it.

    but yeah, something something glorious deaths and James McClean blah blah blah.


    Oh gone on. Try me. Don't chicken out like that. What aspect of my post requires changing?

    For the record, burning the poppy like that was the petulant act of a child.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    who is the guy in Bristol bullying? is he dragging people in to his pub, forcing them to wear a poppy and making them buy a pint?

    You really come out with some dramatic bollocks sometimes.


    So just ignore the point being made.


    Would you agree that Harry Patch might have 'known what he was talking about'?
    Or the person who wrote this:

    https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2015/11/06/poppies-and-the-political-hijacking-of-remembrance/


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh gone on. Try me. Don't chicken out like that. What aspect of my post requires changing?

    For the record, burning the poppy like that was the petulant act of a child.

    Well for starters, Glorious in the context used is the same as when people talk about glory to god. Their memory should be held in honour.

    It has nothing to do with glorious as in fabulous and stunning.

    No one looks at WWI as anything other than a massive waste of life. I have never seen anyone glorify it. It was a breakdown in diplomacy by all involved. I’ve no idea where you get the notion people are glorifying it.

    For th record, I don’t really give a **** about some attention seeking little social media wannabe burning a poppy.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So just ignore the point being made.


    Would you agree that Harry Patch might have 'known what he was talking about'?
    Or the person who wrote this:

    https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2015/11/06/poppies-and-the-political-hijacking-of-remembrance/

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion Francis.

    Just as “everyone should be given space to remember their dead”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    well it's good to see open and frank exchange of opinions without anybody getting hurt.
    see i knew we could do it.

    and there was me thinking this place is full of backward thinking republican types still prattling on about bobby sands, the famine & imperial oppression.


    It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,459 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    obvious troll is obvious


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Aegir wrote: »
    Well for starters, Glorious in the context used is the same as when people talk about glory to god. Their memory should be held in honour.

    It has nothing to do with glorious as in fabulous and stunning.


    So...we are in agreement then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭chrissb8


    I can't get behind it in any shape or form in it's current format. Par 2 world wars the British army have been stuffing their faces in places, cultures and countries they had no place to be. Most British troops signed up to serve the empire and in modern times similarly enough as well (except those who were already in the army when war was announced in Iraq or when conscription was put in place).

    So the cynical side of me says you knew what you were going over for and the blinding jignostic goggles took over and you thought B R I T A I N. Going over to give those terrorists in Iraq a good thumping. My a**e. If you sat down and thought about it for 5 minutes you would see it for the crock it was. I did. I was 12 at the time.

    Make no mistake about it. The British army, with all its officialdom justifications and traditions doesn't mask the fact it was an invader and a foreign menace for the majority of its history. For many that is still the case and no stupid Poppy and saying "it's not about that" will change my opinion. Tell that to the Indian business men they literally made crawl through the streets or the poor souls waving a white flag only to be gunned down on what was supposed to be a peaceful day.

    British military interests are a disgrace and it has only been masked by hiding it behing the nobility of the tommies or ww2 vets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    i appreciate this may be a tad off-topic, but i wanted to know what you guys thought of the proposed change to the laws to protect former soldiers from possible prosecution over historic deaths, most of whom have already been completely exonerated.

    personally i welcome it, as many of the complaints are vexatious in nature orchestrated by people who imo are on the compo trail.


    It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion Francis.

    Just as “everyone should be given space to remember their dead”

    But the point being made is that it has gone beyond that. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    i appreciate this may be a tad off-topic, but i wanted to know what you guys thought of the proposed change to the laws to protect former soldiers from possible prosecution over historic deaths, most of whom have already been completely exonerated.

    personally i welcome it, as many of the complaints are vexatious in nature orchestrated by people who imo are on the compo trail.


    It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum.

    Hey if you welcome the murder of civilians without ramifications to the killers involved that's your right, a disgusting position to have but then again it's obvious as to what your behaviour here is all about.
    You should be happy the Reds won yesterday how sad is your life that you need to try and fill a void by trolling .


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So...we are in agreement then.

    only if you agree with me that no one is glorifying war.

    As an earlier poster mentioned, visiting one of the cemeteries or memorials really puts the whole thing in to context.

    The Menin Gate Memorial is simply amazing. over 54,000 names of soldiers with no known grave, all of whom marched through the gates to their deaths. Every evening, the Ypres fire brigade stop the traffic going through and play the last post. Something that has been happening since 1928. It is a solemn, thoughtful mark of respect to the men from foreign countries who came to help defend theirs, that is all.

    People should not forget the mistakes of the past.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Aegir wrote: »
    its not about "Celebrating" anything.

    I believe the word you are looking for is "Commemorating".




    It's essentially been turned into a celebration of British militarism. And then of course there's the issue of where the money goes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Odhinn wrote: »
    It's essentially been turned into a celebration of British militarism. And then of course there's the issue of where the money goes.

    Or doesn't go considering over 87 million is unspent. The poppy is an industry.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But the point being made is that it has gone beyond that. :rolleyes:

    it isn't a point, it is your opinion.

    The Anti poppy fascists and the poppy fascists are as bad as each other, that has all gone too far and is a sympton of the modern social media age where everyone is constantly looking for something to get outraged about.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »
    It's essentially been turned into a celebration of British militarism. And then of course there's the issue of where the money goes.

    so don't wear one then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    Hey if you welcome the murder of civilians without ramifications to the killers involved that's your right, a disgusting position to have but then again it's obvious as to what your behaviour here is all about.
    You should be happy the Reds won yesterday how sad is your life that you need to try and fill a void by trolling .


    if you consider every opinion you do not agree with to be trolling that's your problem, and i would urge to open your mind. but perhaps you are a victim of your upbringing and/or your environment and sadly you cannot.

    or would you rather to shut down people with whom you disagree? that's probably easier for you.

    "It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Aegir wrote: »
    so don't wear one then.




    I don't. I just find there to be a lack of honesty with regard to what it represents.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    if you consider every opinion you do not agree with to be trolling that's your problem, and i would urge to open your mind. but perhaps you are a victim of your upbringing and/or your environment and sadly you cannot.

    or would you rather to shut down people with whom you disagree? that's probably easier for you.

    "It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

    An opinion that seeks to allow the killers of unarmed civilians go free is not one that deserves my respect. I 'm proud of my upbringing where value was placed on all life .
    I have no problem with you sharing your opinion and I have no interest in shutting you down. However if you post abhorrent crap expect to get called out in it.
    Do you think murdered individuals deserve no justice just because the killers wore a uniform?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    it isn't a point, it is your opinion.

    The Anti poppy fascists and the poppy fascists are as bad as each other, that has all gone too far and is a sympton of the modern social media age where everyone is constantly looking for something to get outraged about.

    So you don't think there has been an alarming change in the use and promotion of the Poppy in the last number of years?

    I think you are in denial mode.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    An opinion that seeks to allow the killers of unarmed civilians go free is not one that deserves my respect. I 'm proud of my upbringing where value was placed on all life .
    I have no problem with you sharing your opinion and I have no interest in shutting you down. However if you post abhorrent crap expect to get called out in it.
    Do you think murdered individuals deserve no justice just because the killers wore a uniform?

    There is an expression for it: British Exceptionalism or blatant hypocrisy or shifting the goalposts to suit.

    In other words, we wave around the rules and normal conventions only when it suits us. Tear up the GFA, the European Convention on Human Rights, ignore judgments of the International Court of Justice, ignore UN resolutions etc etc.

    The actions of the British government over the past few years only confirm what we have always known in these parts- the British simple cannot be trusted and they do not make for honest bedfellows. Full stop. That is and should be the default position in all dealings with the UK.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »
    I don't. I just find there to be a lack of honesty with regard to what it represents.

    what lack of honesty?

    If you buy an RBL poppy you are giving money to the RBL, which supports ex service personnel and their families.

    There is no secret.

    On the other hand, the Poppy is a widely acknowledged symbol of remembrance, just as the corn flower is in France and the Lilly is in Ireland.

    Again, no secret.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    An opinion that seeks to allow the killers of unarmed civilians go free is not one that deserves my respect. I 'm proud of my upbringing where value was placed on all life .
    I have no problem with you sharing your opinion and I have no interest in shutting you down. However if you post abhorrent crap expect to get called out in it.
    Do you think murdered individuals deserve no justice just because the killers wore a uniform?

    the term murder is debatable. it was a conflict area and sadly people get killed in conflict areas. should we prosecute all soldiers of WW2? Vietnam? Iraq?

    we cant just pick 'n choose, cos that aint justice imo.



    "It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    the term murder is debatable. it was a conflict area and sadly people get killed in conflict areas. should we prosecute all soldiers of WW2? Vietnam? Iraq?

    we cant just pick 'n choose, cos that aint justice imo.



    "It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

    The gunning down of unarmed civilians is murder, it's also recognised as a war crime.
    Uniformed murderers from the Vietnam and Iraqi conflict have been proscecuted.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you don't think there has been an alarming change in the use and promotion of the Poppy in the last number of years?

    I think you are in denial mode.

    there was a massive dip in remembrance around the turn of this century. Combined with the death of the last surviving soldiers from WWI, there was a conscious effort made to rekindle remembrance and ensure those killed were not forgotten.

    what has gotten out of control, is people getting outraged for the sake of getting outraged. It has been turned in to a political symbol, from the fors and the againsts.

    when that happens, the best thing to do is for the moderates to tell the extremists to go **** themselves and reclaim it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Perhaps if the Irish did not watch so much UK TV and follow UK popular culture so it would not be noticed. Just saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Aegir wrote: »

    People should not forget the mistakes of the past.


    It's hard to forget what you do not know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    It's hard to forget what you do not know.

    As the Apprentice programme recently proved, the candidates when seeking a pre WW11 Alice in Wonderland first edition didn't know the dates of the WW11. History doesn't seem to be a forte of the British education system. Yet I bet the idiots were wearing a poppy .


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Aegir wrote: »
    what lack of honesty? .


    That its an act of remembrance thats been hijacked into a celebration of british militarism.




    Aegir wrote: »
    what lack of honesty?

    If you buy an RBL poppy you are giving money to the RBL, which supports ex service personnel and their families.There is no secret.


    Personnel that have been involved in colonial wars and repression everywhere from mayala, cyprus, aden, kenya, uganda, northern Ireland.....there is a complete failure to confront the colonial legacy.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's hard to forget what you do not know.

    maybe then, taking kids aside during rugby training and explaining why the second Sunday in November is remembrance Sunday is a good idea?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Aegir wrote: »
    it isn't a point, it is your opinion.

    The Anti poppy fascists and the poppy fascists are as bad as each other, that has all gone too far and is a sympton of the modern social media age where everyone is constantly looking for something to get outraged about.

    Do you think its possible that soldier F could be availing of the money from your poppy contributions?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    there was a massive dip in remembrance around the turn of this century. Combined with the death of the last surviving soldiers from WWI, there was a conscious effort made to rekindle remembrance and ensure those killed were not forgotten.

    what has gotten out of control, is people getting outraged for the sake of getting outraged. It has been turned in to a political symbol, from the fors and the againsts.

    when that happens, the best thing to do is for the moderates to tell the extremists to go **** themselves and reclaim it.
    :):) The reason this is drawing fire is because it is getting more and more 'extreme' every year.

    Shoot the messengers seems to be your solution. Seems to be your solution whenever any criticism of the UK is made.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    tipptom wrote: »
    Do you think its possible that soldier F could be availing of the money from your poppy contributions?

    yes, unfortunately.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    :):) The reason this is drawing fire is because it is getting more and more 'extreme' every year.

    Shoot the messengers seems to be your solution. Seems to be your solution whenever any criticism of the UK is made.

    not shoot the messenger, just point out the messenger is talking ****e to suit their own very very obvious point of view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    As the Apprentice programme recently proved, the candidates when seeking a pre WW11 Alice in Wonderland first edition didn't know the dates of the WW11. History doesn't seem to be a forte of the British education system. Yet I bet the idiots were wearing a poppy .

    that certainly was cringeworthy.
    but i think we (some of us at least) in Ireland are far too obsessed with our history and the perceived wrongs done to us by the evil Brits.

    we would be much happier if we learned to move on a bit. certain posters on here are like broken records.

    there's one in particular (he knows who he is) that at the mere mention of the words border or DUP, he onto it like a flash (i swear he has an alarm on his PC!), prattling out the same tired, old diatribe.



    "It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Aegir wrote: »
    maybe then, taking kids aside during rugby training and explaining why the second Sunday in November is remembrance Sunday is a good idea?


    Sure, if that's what happened. There was nobody doing any explaining- all I could see was a bunch of kids in muddy rugby kit being corralled and made stand around. Completely over the top and unnecessary.

    It was either last year or the year before same gig. Just a minutes silence at 11am. That was it- Jesus now it has evolved into a 15 min multiple wreath laying service by kids and live streaming from the BBC. Bloody hell. I am quite sure this was not unique.

    Commemorating the war dead is one thing and perfectly acceptable but it has gone way beyond that over the past few years in the UK. When it revolves around the present day military then it becomes a completely different animal- it is propaganda and then all criticism no matter how slight is shouted down as 'unpatriotic' and the like. Quite frankly, it is akin to brain washing. That might seem a tad dramatic but with the heavy presence of the military with all the uniform and pomp- it is insidious and dangerous. If this was happening in communist Romania 30 years we would be tutting.

    There are no questions asked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    that certainly was cringeworthy.
    but i think we (some of us at least) in Ireland are far too obsessed with our history and the perceived wrongs done to us by the evil Brits.




    "It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

    You should share your words of wisdom with the families of the victims who were murdered by British crown forces.
    I'm sure they will agree with you.
    Obvious troll is obvious.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »
    That its an act of remembrance thats been hijacked into a celebration of british militarism.

    It sin't though. Not at all.
    Odhinn wrote: »
    Personnel that have been involved in colonial wars and repression everywhere from mayala, cyprus, aden, kenya, uganda, northern Ireland.....there is a complete failure to confront the colonial legacy.

    your favourite topic. I'm sure the people of Malaya, Cyprus etc are very touched by your concerns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    It sin't though. Not at all.



    your favourite topic. I'm sure the people of Malaya, Cyprus etc are very touched by your concerns.

    Letwin Larry, diminishing what happened to us.
    Aegir diminishing what happened others.

    Familiar backfoot, head in sand, and fingers in ears tactics


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    not shoot the messenger, just point out the messenger is talking ****e to suit their own very very obvious point of view.

    Harry Patch and others like him are 'talking ****e?

    that escalated away from respectful commemoration to 'I will have my commemoration and f**k the rest of you'...including those being commemorated. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    personally i think it say a lot about us as a country, as a mature democracy.

    even the Japanese managed a few poppies, and they had 2 atomic bombs dropped on them!

    then again the Black n Tans did shoot Mary Murphy's heifer in Ballygobackwards in 1921
    .

    The Black and Tan were murdering thugs. Still well remembered in Ireland for all the wrong reasons,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Aegir wrote: »
    yes, unfortunately.

    Fair enough.

    I think this is where this is where Irish people like me would have the biggest problem with the poppy and what it represents now.

    I lived in England during the 80s and 90s and there was never any pressure to wear a poppy but this has been turned in to a lucrative industry now with a lot of money going to soldiers in present or near present wars that a lot of people would not agree with and is also used to subsidise these soldiers where the government refuse to fullfill their obligations to these soldiers despite sending them to these spurious "wars",so you could also say you are subsidising the British government.

    You say just don't go in to that pub in Bristol if you don't like what he is doing, but for me as an Irishman walking in to that pub for a pint and being told to leave unless I bought and displayed a poppy that the money will be used for the above is intimidation which I never saw back when I was there and this goes on now in workplaces and chidrens events everwhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Aegir wrote: »
    It sin't though. Not at all.


    It most certainly is.


    Aegir wrote: »
    your favourite topic. I'm sure the people of Malaya, Cyprus etc are very touched by your concerns.




    They may well be. Certainly they and other victims find their concerns are not being engaged with in a spirit of reconciliation by the guilty party


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20302280


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48371388


    https://www.scribd.com/document/94607680/David-Anderson-Huw-Bennett-Daniel-Branch-2006-A-Very-British-Massacre-History-Today-August-2006



    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/may/17/military.iraq1



    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup



    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2014/feb/11/britain-100-years-of-conflict


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Harry Patch and others like him are 'talking ****e?

    that escalated away from respectful commemoration to 'I will have my commemoration and f**k the rest of you'...including those being commemorated. :rolleyes:


    Is that the Harry Patch who died in 2009?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    I think another aspect of this from the point of view of the British is that they have no 'National Day' of celebration like say St Patrick's Day, Bastille Day, 4th July that other countries have. I did pick this up from an article a few years ago.

    (Maybe it's because the British did all the invading that gave 'Independence Day' to so many other countries...)

    The British (or at least the powers that be) are latching on to Remembrance Day as a sort of quasi day of national celebration. There is definitely a drive to reclaim and promote Britishness or more specifically 'Englishness' and take it back from the far right EDL and hooligans.

    As you see from all the pro-Brexit debate over here, references to WWI & II will always be brought into the equation within a few minutes. European commentators are left scratching their heads asking "Why does the UK bang on about the world wars so much? Move on."

    In a lot of respects, Britain has never got over it and refuses to let go. This is in large part because they did not suffer like the civilians in mainland Europe. Look who else is so jingoistic...the US and guess what? They were not invaded either. Co-incidence?

    There are no trenches or concentration camps in Kent.

    God help us when their Queen dies...


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