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The Skripal Salisbury Spooks

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13

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    #62
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    The only answer you'll get to these questions is that Putin is a baddie or some other infantile excuse.
    But all your questions get answers.
    You answer no questions.

    Notice the pattern?


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    #63
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    Why would Russia risk its reputation so close to the World Cup?

    Putin doesn't seem to care, his domestic popularity was unaffected. He has recently had an opposition politician poisoned, unthinkable in most modern democracies, but not out of place in Putin's Russia, and it hasn't affected him politically

    He seems to be far more concerned with info being leaked than he is with international reputation or sanctions
    Why would Russia take 8 years to exact vengeance?

    They took 6 years to kill Litvinenko, why is time-scale an issue?
    Why would Russia jeopardise future spy swaps by ordering an assassination of a swapped spy?

    It's likely they'll happen regardless, but I suspect people will think long and hard about "betraying" Russia under Putin. Nasty things have a habit of happening to those people.
    The only answer you'll get to these questions is that Putin is a baddie or some other infantile excuse.

    I've addressed your questions and points in this thread, you haven't addressed mine


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    #64
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    Why would Russia risk its reputation so close to the World Cup?


    Why would Russia take 8 years to exact vengeance?


    Why would Russia jeopardise future spy swaps by ordering an assassination of a swapped spy?


    That's literally arguing from incredulity. Just because you don't understand why things happened that way, it doesn't mean that they didn't happen.


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So Skripal was stabbed multiple times in the back? I'm so confused.


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    #66
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    King Mob wrote: »
    I've been seeing this kinda pattern a lot in other conspiracy theories these days. I wonder if it's something conspiracy mongers are aping from real disinformation agents, or vice versa.

    But it's very odd to see how eager some conspiracy theorists are to swallow this really Orwellian stuff from state media.


    A good example is infowars. If you look at their world news section, you'll find it littered with Sputnik and RT links. The Russians themselves are more than happy to spread any number of the conspiracy theories that originate in the West too so it's not one-way. It's a symbiotic, contorted human centipede of disinformation.


    There's one main difference between the two though, in my opinion. The Alex Jones types tend to have some other narrative, for example that Sandy Hook was a false flag and that the kids were actors. Russia on the other hand offers multiple nonsensical ones, not to convince anyone that any of them are correct but to make it seem like all narratives are equal - that the obvious one is just as likely as the latest screed from Maggy Symonian.


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    #67
    kravmaga
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    They are key suspects in the Skripal poisoning with a lot of evidence pointing to them. And now the Czechs have linked them to blast in the Czech Republic in 2014.

    The assassination attempt on Skripal is an actual credible conspiracy theory. A state attempting to take out an ex-spy for revealing info and secrets to another country (and leaving a calling card)

    The Czech Security Intelligence Service (BIS) have confirmed that the 2 Russian GRU agents stayed in Prague for 2 days then made there way to the remote ammunitions warehouse in Vrbetice in rural Czech republic.

    Both warehouses were leased by Imex group who are based in the city of Ostrava in Eastern Czech Republic.

    A Bulgarian businessman who shall remain un named was involved in the arms trade supplying arms to Ukraine during the height of the conflict in 2013/2014.

    Its plain as day to see that Putin wanted this arms supply source to the Ukraine shut down, so sent his 2 GRU agents to take out the warehouses.

    This information was kept quiet by BIS for 7 years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouses_explosions


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    #68
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Putin doesn't seem to care, his domestic popularity was unaffected. He has recently had an opposition politician poisoned, unthinkable in most modern democracies, but not out of place in Putin's Russia, and it hasn't affected him politically

    He seems to be far more concerned with info being leaked than he is with international reputation or sanctions



    They took 6 years to kill Litvinenko, why is time-scale an issue?



    It's likely they'll happen regardless, but I suspect people will think long and hard about "betraying" Russia under Putin. Nasty things have a habit of happening to those people.



    I've addressed your questions and points in this thread, you haven't addressed mine


    You haven't answered anything except with boilerplate excuses.


    Q: "Why would he do it?"
    A: "Uh, because he's a dick who doesn't care"


    That's a non-answer.


    And spy swaps are likely to go ahead despite Russia having a reputation for killing them after the swap? You say it's to send a message to anyone who might dare think about speaking out against The Kremlin. What credible information has Skripal been giving about Moscow after all these years? It's as incredible as the peasants who are still being held in Guantanamo after 20 year as being "threats". They're there because they have Al-Qaeda information or some other rubbish. After 20 years in a cage they still have information about arms dumps. operations? They probably don't even know that Bin Laden is dead. Most of them probably never even heard of the guy as they approach middle-age.


    Do you know why Putin's reputation hasn't been damaged by this farce? It's not because the Russian public think that he's great and that they think it's ok to assassinate some apparent old codger who is deemed an enemy of the state. It's because they are intelligent enough not to believe this fairytale, unlike some.


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    #69
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    kravmaga wrote: »
    The Czech Security Intelligence Service (BIS) have confirmed that the 2 Russian GRU agents stayed in Prague for 2 days then made there way to the remote ammunitions warehouse in Vrbetice in rural Czech republic.

    Both warehouses were leased by Imex group who are based in the city of Ostrava in Eastern Czech Republic.

    A Bulgarian businessman who shall remain un named was involved in the arms trade supplying arms to Ukraine during the height of the conflict in 2013/2014.

    Its plain as day to see that Putin wanted this arms supply source to the Ukraine shut down, so sent his 2 GRU agents to take out the warehouses.

    This information was kept quiet by BIS for 7 years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouses_explosions


    Seems rather clumsy to send two obvious incompetents on mission after mission of such importance. They are high ranking experts yet stay in a kip of a hotel in London, get baked on weed and employ the services of prostitutes. Surely Russia who put the first man and woman into space could come up with a better calibre of operative and not send two buffoons together.


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    #70
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    All you're saying is that you can't believe that Russia would do this.

    You haven't offered anything except your own incredulity which isn't something that people tend to find convincing. You not understanding why Putin would do this is no more than a wet fart compared to the actual evidence that has been used to support the idea that this was a Russian operation. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't think Russia had anything to do with Litvenenko's murder either or with the downing of MH17.


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    #71
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    A good example is infowars. If you look at their world news section, you'll find it littered with Sputnik and RT links. The Russians themselves are more than happy to spread any number of the conspiracy theories that originate in the West too so it's not one-way. It's a symbiotic, contorted human centipede of disinformation.


    There's one main difference between the two though, in my opinion. The Alex Jones types tend to have some other narrative, for example that Sandy Hook was a false flag and that the kids were actors. Russia on the other hand offers multiple nonsensical ones, not to convince anyone that any of them are correct but to make it seem like all narratives are equal - that the obvious one is just as likely as the latest screed from Maggy Symonian.


    The only reason why Alex Jones and Infowars are still in business is for the exact same reason that the CIA coined the phrase "conspiracy theory" back in the 60's.



    Jones spouts an awful lot of crap but when he does touch on the truth or at least gets close to the bone it can all be dismissed as nutjobbery because he talks about chemtrails or other such gibberish. He's more useful on the air to spout rubbish because it discredits all his stuff that might have some merit.


    Same reason that the IRA never really tried to off Ian Paisley. He was more valuable spouting his firebrand drivel alive and being laughed at than if he was killed.


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    #72
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    robinph wrote: »
    You'd need to start by providing details from your mermaid/ man experts and how they came to their conclusions, details on how the death of Jesus happened and of them being in the vicinity at the time, details in the age of them seeing as the Jesus character is thought to have lived 2000 odd years ago and details on their ability to control icebergs and the strong evidence around the ice berg having been behaving oddly at the time.

    Saying you've got experts and strong evidence isn't the same as either actually existing.


    Are you going to provide any of the "ALL EVIDENCE POINTING TO RUSSIAN STATE INVOLVEMENT"?



    Or not?


    You said it. Not me. Now surely you have something. DohnJoe and fellow travellers are quick to demand evidence from everyone. If they were so interested in truth/proof/evidence then I would imagine they would also want you to provide it.


    Theresa May coming out with vague, get-out-of-jail phrases like "It is now highly likely that Putin ordered this assassination attempt" is no more proof or evidence than someone saying "I wholeheartedly suspect that the kid at the end of the street stole my bicycle."



    Either you have proof/evidence or you don't. And you know something...YOU DON'T.


    If Russia was so adamant in sending this message to would-be dissidents to not fuck with Russia then why would they not leave definitive proof that their fingerprints were on the hatchet?


    Why wouldn't they announce to the world "We have just killed an ex spy and will do it again. So be forewarned."


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    #73
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    All you're saying is that you can't believe that Russia would do this.

    You haven't offered anything except your own incredulity which isn't something that people tend to find convincing. You not understanding why Putin would do this is no more than a wet fart compared to the actual evidence that has been used to support the idea that this was a Russian operation. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't think Russia had anything to do with Litvenenko's murder either or with the downing of MH17.


    No I am not saying that. I'm pretty certain that most states would kill for expedience, political leverage or to avoid uncomfortable exposure. The US, UK, Russia, China, Japan, Italy, France, Chile, Brazil <insert country here> would certainly sacrifice someone if it was to their advantage.



    And you can go out on all the limbs of an octopus family if you want, but I won't be drawn on your other suspicions or have you try to create a circular argument and muddy the waters.



    There is ZERO proof or evidence that Russia in general or Putin in particular had anything to do with this alleged case, in spite of robinph's assertions that all evidence points to Russian state culpability, claims on which he is conspicuously silent.

    In conclusion...it's an "idea" that it was a Russian operation? Is that like a hunch or a rumour or a suspicion or a thought or an inkling? Do you have a FACT as opposed to a "haunting feeling"?


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    #74
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    ShatterAlan wrote: »

    In conclusion...it's an "idea" that it was a Russian operation? Is that like a hunch or a rumour or a suspicion or a thought or an inkling? Do you have a FACT as opposed to a "haunting feeling"?


    They admitted to being in Salisbury before being outed as Russian state security operatives. Since then, it's been discovered that they've been wandering around europe at the same times as other murders and shenanigans. It's far from a "haunted feeling".

    Also, if you think that there is zero evidence or proof of Russian involvement, then you don't know what the words "zero", "evidence", "proof" or "involvement" mean because plenty of this has been verified by the Russians themselves.


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    #75
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    You haven't answered anything except with boilerplate excuses.


    Q: "Why would he do it?"
    A: "Uh, because he's a dick who doesn't care"


    That's a non-answer.

    Is not what I wrote and I've been addressing your points/questions while you are addressing none of mine

    According to you what happened? were the Skripals even poisoned? if so, with what?

    If you don't care at all, then why are you even discussing this?


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    #76
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    That's literally arguing from incredulity. Just because you don't understand why things happened that way, it doesn't mean that they didn't happen.


    I don't understand that a tooth under a pillow at night can turn into a coin in the morning either. Does that mean things happened that way?

    Or are you going to stamp your feet in a rage and demand "what's the alternative theory, then?"


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    #77
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    The only reason why Alex Jones and Infowars are still in business is for the exact same reason that the CIA coined the phrase "conspiracy theory" back in the 60's.

    Lol
    It can't be that conspiracy theorists are just some times wrong and believe silly things.
    That's impossible.
    It must be that those conspiracy theorists who believe ridiculous things are all CIA plants...


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    #78
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Is not what I wrote and I've been addressing your points/questions while you are addressing none of mine

    According to you what happened? were the Skripals even poisoned? if so, with what?

    If you don't care at all, then why are you even discussing this?


    I, first of all didn't quote you.


    Secondly I don't have to provide you with an alternative just because I don't believe what you believe.



    But I'll tell you what....I'll throw a little slack. I'm going to ask YOU to contemplate what might have happened beyond the official narrative. You don't strike me as completely intransigent so I will leave it up to you to contemplate other possibilities.


    Outside of Putin sending a pair to kill an ex spy and failing and the story being reported as such, what other contigencies might you think are possible?


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    #79
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    They admitted to being in Salisbury before being outed as Russian state security operatives. Since then, it's been discovered that they've been wandering around europe at the same times as other murders and shenanigans. It's far from a "haunted feeling".

    Also, if you think that there is zero evidence or proof of Russian involvement, then you don't know what the words "zero", "evidence", "proof" or "involvement" mean because plenty of this has been verified by the Russians themselves.


    This reminds me of that great interrogation scene from the movie "The Usual Suspects".


    Cop: "We can put you in Queens on the night of the robbery!"


    Hockney: "Really? I live in Queens. Did you figure that out by yourself Einstein? What, do you have a team of monkeys working round the clock on this?"


    :pac:

    Gerry Conlon admitted to being in Guildford on the night of the bombing. Along with Paul Hill. They were also suspicious characters in that they were Irish and from sh1tty areas in Belfast. Drifters, young punks, with various petty convictions like smoking weed and, if you want to embellish their notoriety and obvious guilt in killing a bunch of people then fill in the box.

    Shenanigans, you say.


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    #80
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    Secondly I don't have to provide you with an alternative just because I don't believe what you believe.

    Actually I'll simplify this even more, Sergei Skripal was poisoned or not?

    Or are you in such a state of absolute denial you can't even answer that?


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    #81
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Ah we're back to tooth fairies I see


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    #82
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You aren't addressing any of the facts, you aren't addressing questions put to you, you don't tackle any of the evidence you just scoff at it, you haven't attempted to explain anything that happened that day, so far it's just dogmatic denial and disbelief

    What happened to Dawn Sturgess? how is the coroner wrong? how is the OPCW wrong? what are your sources?


    What are the facts?


    You were right that the Skripal house wasn't demolished, only that the roof was removed and the insides were apparently renovated. I'll admit to that.


    Now please tell me the FACTS, with proof, behind the Skripal case.


    Sergei and Yuila were poisoned? Maybe. No word from them though.
    The "Novichok" came into England in Yulia's luggage? That story quickly changed.
    Dawn Sturgess is dead? Possibly/Probably
    She was a homeless drunk who died because she picked up a cigarette end in a park that had "Novichok" on it? That was quickly changed to her or her homeless partner finding a bottle of perfume in a bin that was "novichok" and her spraying it on herself and ultimately dying. Did the bottle have "Versace" on it, or "Chanel "?
    How often have you rummaged around in the trash and found a weird bottle and just inhaled or ingested it?

    So our Russian goons wanted to dispose of their remaining poison before they fled the country so they poured it into a perfume bottle and dropped it into a park garbage can?


    Or did they want it to be found and kill a few more to copperfasten the "calling card"?


    Skripal lived in a housing estate. If the Hutch/Kinahan mob as limited as they are in intelligence and sophistication can drive up to a house in Finglas or Tallaght and blow away somebody and get away with a car in flames a few miles down the road then why would Vlad The Impaler not employ a similar tactic with unlimited money and resources? Pay some trigger men to clip Skripal and be done with it...if that was the M.O. Why all this nerve agent nonsense? You want him dead then just send a few thugs to kill him properly and leave no trace. Better still not even a body.


    But it had to be a ridiculous Keystone Kops hit.


    The US murder people all the time with drones in other countries like Syria or Yemen or Iraq or Iran. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that their explanations are horseshit but the facts are there. The Saudis killed and chopped up Khassoghi. No bother. He was a threat. The Americans killed Suleimani. They and the Brits are trying to torture Assange to death. They tried to kill Snowden but he outfoxed them .If it's grand to do these things against someone who might speak out then why is it so terrible if the Russkis try to whack someone for apparently doing the same?


    Or is that just "whataboutery"?


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    #83
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    ShatterAlan wrote: »


    Sergei and Yuila were poisoned? Maybe.

    You are really, really certain this didn't happen, but when asked questions suddenly you seem very uncertain, why is that?
    No word from them though.

    Yulia spoke after the incident, read the thread
    Dawn Sturgess is dead? Possibly/Probably

    Once again this uncertainty.

    Is she dead or is she alive? here's a big clue for you, what does the coroners verdict say?

    Here's an even bigger clue, there's a coroners verdict, what do you think that means in terms of whether she is dead or alive


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    #84
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You are really, really certain this didn't happen, but when asked questions suddenly you seem very uncertain, why is that?



    Yulia spoke after the incident, read the thread



    Once again this uncertainty.

    Is she dead or is she alive? here's a big clue for you, what does the coroners verdict say?

    Here's an even bigger clue, there's a coroners verdict, what do you think that means in terms of whether she is dead or alive


    I started the thread and have read through it.


    You're absolutely correct in the use of the word "uncertainty". Can I equate it to another word (or two), i.e. "doubt", "skepticism".


    So Dawn Sturgess is dead and from a novichock poisoning, apparently. Why are we going around in circles here?


    You asked me to answer you questons but you haven't asked me any relevant questions. I threw a crumb and asked you to contemplate questions that you have been try to ask, i.e. What could be an alternative explanation? So, leaving aside your belief that this was a Putin ordered hit that failed could there be any other possibility?


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    #85
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    . What could be an alternative explanation? So, leaving aside your belief that this was a Putin ordered hit that failed could there be any other possibility?
    Well obviously there can't be an alternative.

    You can't provide one that sounds sane or plausible, hence all your dodging and whining about not having to provide one.

    And since there is no other explanation, using the usual conspiracy theory logic, we must conclude the same as pretty much every government and intelligence service.


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    #86
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    I started the thread and have read through it.

    You clearly haven't, e.g. it's been explained that Yulia spoke after the incident, but you ignore that and falsely claim she hasn't.
    You're absolutely correct in the use of the word "uncertainty". Can I equate it to another word (or two), i.e. "doubt", "skepticism".

    Blindly pouring doubt on everything is not skepticism.
    So Dawn Sturgess is dead and from a novichock poisoning, apparently. Why are we going around in circles here?

    No circles, you've only been engaging in denial so far. Now you suddenly accept it.

    And where did that Novichok come from?

    Those two Russian men, the ones caught multiple times on CCTV that day in Salisbury, were they there that day?


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    #87
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Ah we're back to tooth fairies I see


    Since you keep using the "incredulity" angle, then unfortunately yes we are. You don't seem to get it so it's going to crop up again and again.


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    #88
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    Since you keep using the "incredulity" angle, then unfortunately yes we are. You don't seem to get it so it's going to crop up again and again.

    You've just acknowledged a UK resident, Dawn Sturgess died of Novichok poisoning, a rare Russian developed nerve agent, in the UK, any explanation?

    This is after an ex-spy and his daughter were also discovered poisoned by Novichok. Any explanation or is that just a coincidence?

    Two Russian men also happened to be in Salisbury that day, and left directly after the poisoning occurred, claiming to be "nutrionalists" on national TV, but later discovered to be members of the GRU, literally one of their pictures hanging in a military academy. Explanation for this, or just another coincidence?

    Traces of Novichok discovered at the hotel where they stayed, likewise, another remarkable coincidence?

    Any ideas on what happened, or you are happy with those coincidences..


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    #89
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You've just acknowledged a UK resident, Dawn Sturgess died of Novichok poisoning, a rare Russian developed nerve agent, in the UK, any explanation?

    This is after an ex-spy and his daughter were also discovered poisoned by Novichok. Any explanation or is that just a coincidence?

    Two Russian men also happened to be in Salisbury that day, and left directly after the poisoning occurred, claiming to be "nutrionalists" on national TV, but later discovered to be members of the GRU, literally one of their pictures hanging in a military academy. Explanation for this, or just another coincidence?

    Traces of Novichok discovered at the hotel where they stayed, likewise, another remarkable coincidence?

    Any ideas on what happened, or you are happy with those coincidences..


    No I did not. I never acknowledged that. Tell me and others when I acknowledged any of the above.


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    #90
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    I have a novel suggestion.


    Since the defenders of the official narrative consistently demand an alternative to what they hold dear and true, I would ask THEM if they could contemplate an alternative.


    It doesn't have to be true....it doesn't even have to be plausible, but all I ask is that it might be possible.


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    #91
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    I have a novel suggestion.


    Since the defenders of the official narrative consistently demand an alternative to what they hold dear and true, I would ask THEM if they could contemplate an alternative.


    It doesn't have to be true....it doesn't even have to be plausible, but all I ask is that it might be possible.

    This is an odd post. You have been asked for an alternative so put it forward. How can people contemplate whatever is in your head when you haven’t told them?


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