Are Trump and Brexit "Archduke Ferdinand" moments?

sdanseo · 14-11-2016 2:21am #1

Interesting thoughts here, granted with the planet-sized caveat that it's the Huffington Post. Are we heading into a period of instability so bad it could trigger another global conflict in the next 4 to 8 years?

A passage which does worry me does so because it makes quite a lot of sense:

Brexit in the UK causes Italy or France to have a similar referendum. Le Pen wins an election in France. Europe now has a fractured EU. The EU, for all its many awful faults, has prevented a war in Europe for longer than ever before. The EU is also a major force in suppressing Putin’s military ambitions. European sanctions on Russia really hit the economy, and helped temper Russia’s attacks on Ukraine (there is a reason bad guys always want a weaker European Union). Trump wins in the US. Trump becomes isolationist, which weakens NATO. He has already said he would not automatically honor NATO commitments in the face of a Russian attack on the Baltics.

With a fractured EU, and weakened NATO, Putin, facing an ongoing economic and social crisis in Russia, needs another foreign distraction around which to rally his people. He funds far right anti-EU activists in Latvia, who then create a reason for an uprising of the Russian Latvians in the East of the country (the EU border with Russia). Russia sends “peace keeping forces” and “aid lorries” into Latvia, as it did in Georgia, and in Ukraine. He cedes Eastern Latvia as he did Eastern Ukraine (Crimea has the same population as Latvia, by the way).

A divided Europe, with the leaders of France, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, and others now pro-Russia, anti-EU, and funded by Putin, overrule calls for sanctions or a military response. NATO is slow to respond: Trump does not want America to be involved, and a large part of Europe is indifferent or blocking any action. Russia, seeing no real resistance to their actions, move further into Latvia, and then into Eastern Estonia and Lithuania. The Baltic States declare war on Russia and start to retaliate, as they have now been invaded so have no choice. Half of Europe sides with them, a few countries remain neutral, and a few side with Russia. Where does Turkey stand on this? How does ISIS respond to a new war in Europe? Who uses a nuclear weapon first?

Ted111 · 14-11-2016 2:26am

He was a hell of duke was Ferdinand.
Arch would even begin to describe it.
We lost him too soon.

riffmongous · 14-11-2016 3:03am

World War 2 1939-45
World War 1 1914-18
Austro-Prussian/ Franco Prussian 1866/71
Napoleonic 1792-1815
7 Years War 1756-1763
9 Years War/Spanish Succesion 1688-1714
30 Years War 1618-1648

Every 30-50 years, we are well overdue a war here in Central Europe anyway. I never thought we'd see one but the general mood seems to be slowly getting worse and worse the last few years

Shenshen · 14-11-2016 10:06am

I think we've become too complacent. Too many people these days are taking the achievements of the EU for granted and assume that peaceful, close cooperation is the norm among nation states. Even the Brits seem to assume that once they've left the EU, not one of the advantages they had from being a member would disappear.

I'm kind of hoping that Brexit and Trump might make a larger number of people aware again of what our parents and grandparents built here, and how much it's worth continuing and protecting.
But then, I always believe in people's ability to see sense, and I get disappointed quite a lot because of that.

VinLieger · 14-11-2016 10:18am

Of course they could be and anyone who disagrees that they absolutely are not is simply ignorant of history. Like the article said nobody could have predicted when it happened what Ferdinand's assassination was going to lead to the only thing they knew was that things were precarious and unstable similar to right now but what was going to be the trigger was anyone's guess like it is once again now

mariaalice · 14-11-2016 10:23am

riffmongous wrote: »

World War 2 1939-45
World War 1 1914-18
Austro-Prussian/ Franco Prussian 1866/71
Napoleonic 1792-1815
7 Years War 1756-1763
9 Years War/Spanish Succesion 1688-1714
30 Years War 1618-1648

Every 30-50 years, we are well overdue a war here in Central Europe anyway. I never thought we'd see one but the general mood seems to be slowly getting worse and worse the last few years

What about the Bosnian Wars, that was a war in Europe.

People's imaginations are running away with them re Trump.

gandalf · 14-11-2016 10:24am

We are definitely moving closer to a Archduke Ferdinand moment with the way the pieces are lining up on the board at the moment.

What is truly scary is that nations that fought against fascism during WW2 have succumbed to it already or are well on the path to doing so.

I can't believe that I am living in the middle of a Chinese curse!

SEPT 23 1989 · 14-11-2016 10:43am

less of a chance of conflict now that Clinton II is no more

Wibbs · 14-11-2016 10:43am

gandalf wrote: »

We are definitely moving closer to a Archduke Ferdinand moment with the way the pieces are lining up on the board at the moment.

Possibly, but it's still a pretty shaky possibly.

What is truly scary is that nations that fought against fascism during WW2 have succumbed to it already or are well on the path to doing so.

No, they're really not, or you don't understand how fascist societies operated.

Annasopra · 14-11-2016 10:48am

Steve Bannon as Trumps chief of staff? Jews and Black people in America should be seriously worried.

padd b1975 · 14-11-2016 10:51am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Steve Bannon as Trumps chief of staff? Jews and Black people in America should be seriously worried.

What sort of racist and anti-Semitic legislation is in the pipeline?

ohnonotgmail · 14-11-2016 10:56am

padd b1975 wrote: »

What sort of racist and anti-Semitic legislation is in the pipeline?

Time will tell. Given his history you would be a fool to be surprised by it.

mariaalice · 14-11-2016 11:01am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Steve Bannon as Trumps chief of staff? Jews and Black people in America should be seriously worried.

His oldest daughter has coveted to Judaism.

silverharp · 14-11-2016 11:01am

to use the tortured "archduke Ferdinand" analogy what happened last week anyway was telling him to stay home that day and have a cup of tea...

Agricola · 14-11-2016 11:19am

Interesting parallel between UK and US. White elite conservatives, whining about the loss of old economic power, blame everyone who isn't white, flooding in over the border. This strikes a cord with a certain demographic of voter and the world reverses xx years in a matter of weeks.

conorhal · 14-11-2016 11:38am

What's driving Trump\Brexit\FN\AfD\etc is a rather smart, rational recogntion by the public that globalization is stripping them of their humanity and reducing them to 'economic unit's who have seen a reduction in standard's of living as wealth is transfered to the pockets of a global elite.
As Clinton 1.0 pointed out in the 90's, 'it's the economy stupid'.
It isn't Farage and Trump bringing on the Trumpocalypse, it's the narrow focused, short sighted, PC left who are driving the crisis and Farage and Trump are the product of that, not the cause.
If anybody's looking for sombody to blame you can start with those who insisted on fighting an election on Gender pronouns and sexisim as opposed to jobs and immigration.

Shenshen · 14-11-2016 11:49am

conorhal wrote: »

What's driving Trump\Brexit\FN\AfD\etc is a rather smart, rational recogntion by the public that globalization is stripping them of their humanity and reducing them to 'economic unit's who have seen a reduction in standard's of living as wealth is transfered to the pockets of a global elite.
As Clinton 1.0 pointed out in the 90's, 'it's the economy stupid'.
It isn't Farage and Trump bringing on the Trumpocalypse, it's the narrow focused, short sighted, PC left who are driving the crisis and Farage and Trump are the product of that, not the cause.
If anybody's looking for sombody to blame you can start with those who insisted on fighting an election on Gender pronouns and sexisim as opposed to jobs and immigration.

While I agree with the sentiment ascribed to the sectors of the public who voted in Trump and voted for Brexit, I'm not entirely sure that you assign the blame correctly.

The economic left is the segment in politics in favour of worker's rights, protectionism through taxes, reduced imports and they would, by definition, be anti-globalisation.
Their main objective is raising living standards for the lower and middle classes by taxing the richer parts of society.

Yet that is definitely not what the US voted for in the last election.

Wibbs · 14-11-2016 11:49am

Agricola wrote: »

Interesting parallel between UK and US. White elite conservatives, whining about the loss of old economic power, blame everyone who isn't white, flooding in over the border.

White poor and eroding middle class conservatives might, but the actual "elite", white or not, don't give two hoots about any "flood" across borders. Or at least not in the way you suggest. Cheaper labour either through immigrants who will work for less/dropping existing "local" workers wages to compete is something they want, not something they want to avoid. Open borders to people and their cash and global economies is a positive to their continuing and increasing wealth. Pointing to immigrants may certainly be a deflection tactic to keep them out of popular focus, but that would be about it.

Wibbs · 14-11-2016 11:51am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Time will tell. Given his history you would be a fool to be surprised by it.

And at this juncture a hysteric to think it's the start of the fourth reich.

ohnonotgmail · 14-11-2016 12:14pm

Wibbs wrote: »

And at this juncture a hysteric to think it's the start of the fourth reich.

like i said, time will tell.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-11-2016 12:15pm

World war two didn't start because Hitler was taking over territory or killing Jews. In fact world leaders could not care less about that.
Remember this saying; 'Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.'
Or who is in any form of power.

Some of the first things Hitler did in territories he took control over was dismantle their central banks. There were hundreds of billions at stake and it was going to cost a hundred million lives to get them back. That's why the second world war happened. If Hitler was happy for money to be issued out of thin air at interest, he'd have been in power, killing Jews in Germany until the 80s.

So, is anything money related happening now, that could start a war? Well look at Russia, they've been crushed under sanctions for the ladt few years now. Why?
Is it because of the brouhaha in Ukraine? Their actions in Syria?
No. Russia is moving rapidly towards dumping the dollar for it's oil. It will want Roubles only, and likely yuan. Making their resources much cheaper than anything stuck to the high value dollar.

This is a direct threat to the hegemony that is the world reserve currency.
As long as countries sell oil in dollars, countries have to buy dollars in order to buy oil. This makes demand for dollars which makes their value.
Without it, the dollar is finished. It's a matter of survival now, that Americans crush anyone who threatens that hegemony.
Like Saddam Hussein.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwiR9qStjajQAhVKDsAKHaRlChsQFggoMAA&usg=AFQjCNENKp9gmns0--f9lpn1cV5o3BhZQg
Or Gaddafi.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwjEh7njjajQAhXMLsAKHeo1DrsQFghhMAQ&usg=AFQjCNH9-WtoSXOFW_zyz_nme-e2HAJhEg
Or Assad.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11894.htm
Seeing a pattern yet?

Good, because it's the reason many leaders have been "overthrown"...

Russia is a much bigger, much more powerful country. It's going to take a much bigger, much more powerful war.

pumpkin4life · 14-11-2016 12:20pm

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

World war two didn't start because Hitler was taking over territory or killing Jews. In fact world leaders could not care less about that.
Remember this saying; 'Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.'
Or who is in any form of power.

Some of the first things Hitler did in territories he took control over was dismantle their central banks. There were hundreds of billions at stake and it was going to cost a hundred million lives to get them back. That's why the second world war happened. If Hitler was happy for money to be issued out of thin air at interest, he'd have been in power, killing Jews in Germany until the 80s.

So, is anything money related happening now, that could start a war? Well look at Russia, they've been crushed under sanctions for the ladt few years now. Why?
Is it because of the brouhaha in Ukraine? Their actions in Syria?
No. Russia is moving rapidly towards dumping the dollar for it's oil. It will want Roubles only, and likely yuan. Making their resources much cheaper than anything stuck to the high value dollar.

This is a direct threat to the hegemony that is the world reserve currency.
As long as countries sell oil in dollars, countries have to buy dollars in order to buy oil. This makes demand for dollars which makes their value.
Without it, the dollar is finished. It's a matter of survival now, that Americans crush anyone who threatens that hegemony.
Like Saddam Hussein.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwiR9qStjajQAhVKDsAKHaRlChsQFggoMAA&usg=AFQjCNENKp9gmns0--f9lpn1cV5o3BhZQg
Or Gaddafi.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwjEh7njjajQAhXMLsAKHeo1DrsQFghhMAQ&usg=AFQjCNH9-WtoSXOFW_zyz_nme-e2HAJhEg
Or Assad.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11894.htm
Seeing a pattern yet?
Good, because it's the reason many leaders have been "overthrown"...

Russia is a much bigger, much more powerful country. It's going to take a much bigger, much more powerful war.

Bingo. This is also (along with the velocity of money) why Obama has been able to "print" money left right and centre with no inflationary effect. It's swallowed up in the petrodollar.

Saipanne · 14-11-2016 12:22pm

Hilary would have undoubtedly caused a war with Russia.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-11-2016 12:28pm

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Bingo. This is also (along with the velocity of money) why Obama has been able to "print" money left right and centre with no inflationary effect. It's swallowed up in the petrodollar.

Yup, well almost, the most powerful man in the world actually has to make an appointment to be allowed to see the people printing the dollar but the point is the same.
No matter how much of it is printed out of thin air, it's printed at interest, meaning you can print more to loan later, and the thing other countries want, like oil, they have to exchange their much more solidly backed currencies for, diluting what would be American hyperinflation into simple global inflation.
It's going to be ugly

SterlingArcher · 14-11-2016 12:31pm

Wibbs wrote: »

And at this juncture a hysteric to think it's the start of the fourth reich.

Yep calling them Nazis or kkk. Hell even Jack the ripper for the lolz. Basically try tie them to any perceived evil image.

You can only shut down freedom of ideas and expression through labeled oppression for so long.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-11-2016 12:33pm

Saipanne wrote: »

Hilary would have undoubtedly caused a war with Russia.

I have two videos for you. One is little over a minute and a half, and the other is 27 seconds. Pretty much all you need to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74EvJieIqbM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykk8ibRhx-g

'Trump will start ww3'....
I mean he might, but there's at least a bloody chance, however slim, that he won't.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-11-2016 12:39pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Steve Bannon as Trumps chief of staff? Jews and Black people in America should be seriously worried.

Assuage your fears my friend and check this list.
I made sure to remove the, *cough* nice things actual skinheads were saying about them through their tears...

Michael Abboud - chief PR
Lewis Eisenberg - Trump Victory Committee President
Elliot Broidy - Trump Victory Committee Vice President
Samuel Fox - Trump Victory Committee Vice President
Jared Kushner - main advisor
Jason Greenblatt - chief financial officer Trump Organization
Sheldon Adelson - main lobbyst in the US
David Friedman - Lawyer while undergoing Atlantic City failures
Michael Abboud - chief PR
Lewis Eisenberg - Trump Victory Committee President
Elliot Broidy - Trump Victory Committee Vice President
Samuel Fox - Trump Victory Committee Vice President
Michael Cohen - Trump Organization VP
Alan Garten - Trump Organization VP
Lawrence Glick - Trump Organization VP
Michael Dezer - Trump partner
Gil Dezer - Trump partner
Stephen Feinberg - Trump Economic Advisory Council member
Paul Achleitner - Trump donor
Carl Icahn - main Trump donor
Wilbur Ross - main Trump donor
John Paulson - main Trump donor
Stephen Wynn - main Trump donor

All Jewish. So relax, or do I need to make a list of Black folk too?

ohnonotgmail · 14-11-2016 12:41pm

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Yep calling them Nazis or kkk. Hell even Jack the ripper for the lolz. Basically try tie them to any perceived evil image.

You can only shut down freedom of ideas and expression through labeled oppression for so long.

God forbid somebody compares the alt-right with the KKK and fascism. They are sooooo different.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-11-2016 12:47pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

God forbid somebody compares the alt-right with the KKK and fascism. They are sooooo different.

Well how many of the "alt-right", have you seen donning white wizards hats and hanging blacks, or rounding up Jewish folk for a shower?

Come off it, firstly remember the KKK were a militia formed by The Democrats, with the explicit purpose of terrorising black communities who aligned with Republicans in the civil war, and locating "traitor" Republicans and killing them for their "crimes"..

Furthermore, I've said it already, I'll say it again. It would be nice to build a time machine and fire people into something like late 20s/early 30s Germany so they can actually experience for themselves a situation so desperate that something as dark as fascism can come to light.
This? This is nothing.

The Backwards Man · 14-11-2016 12:54pm

We're not even close to a Bay Of Pigs moment yet, so an Archduke Ferdinand moment is a long way off. But there's no doubting we're looking down the path, swithering.

_Jamie_ · 14-11-2016 1:32pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I think we've become too complacent. Too many people these days are taking the achievements of the EU for granted and assume that peaceful, close cooperation is the norm among nation states. Even the Brits seem to assume that once they've left the EU, not one of the advantages they had from being a member would disappear.

Yeah, check out the chairman of Wetherspoons bitching about the possiblity of tariffs on transactions being imposed on Britain once they leave the EU and him claiming that EU nations will worse off than the UK if this happens. Diddums.

He was active in the 'Leave' side. What did he expect, that the UK would leave the EU but still receive the benefit of being a member without paying into it?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/02/wetherspoon-boss-eu-leaders-brexit-talks-tim-martin

14-11-2016 1:40pm

Here's hoping that by the time it starts, I'm too old to be drafted into the military.

riffmongous · 14-11-2016 1:51pm

mariaalice wrote: »

What about the Bosnian Wars, that was a war in Europe.

People's imaginations are running away with them re Trump.

The Yugoslav wars don't compare to any of the major ones listed above

Your Face · 14-11-2016 2:00pm

Bonaparted · 14-11-2016 7:09pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm kind of hoping that Brexit and Trump might make a larger number of people aware again of what our parents and grandparents built here, and how much it's worth continuing and protecting.

Yes, it's the open border extremists and diversity darlings who want to give it away. There would be no Brexit or Trump if it were not for mass immigration.

14-11-2016 9:17pm

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

World war two didn't start because Hitler was taking over territory or killing Jews. In fact world leaders could not care less about that.
Remember this saying; 'Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.'
Or who is in any form of power.

Some of the first things Hitler did in territories he took control over was dismantle their central banks. There were hundreds of billions at stake and it was going to cost a hundred million lives to get them back. That's why the second world war happened. If Hitler was happy for money to be issued out of thin air at interest, he'd have been in power, killing Jews in Germany until the 80s.

So, is anything money related happening now, that could start a war? Well look at Russia, they've been crushed under sanctions for the ladt few years now. Why?
Is it because of the brouhaha in Ukraine? Their actions in Syria?
No. Russia is moving rapidly towards dumping the dollar for it's oil. It will want Roubles only, and likely yuan. Making their resources much cheaper than anything stuck to the high value dollar.

This is a direct threat to the hegemony that is the world reserve currency.
As long as countries sell oil in dollars, countries have to buy dollars in order to buy oil. This makes demand for dollars which makes their value.
Without it, the dollar is finished. It's a matter of survival now, that Americans crush anyone who threatens that hegemony.
Like Saddam Hussein.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwiR9qStjajQAhVKDsAKHaRlChsQFggoMAA&usg=AFQjCNENKp9gmns0--f9lpn1cV5o3BhZQg
Or Gaddafi.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwjEh7njjajQAhXMLsAKHeo1DrsQFghhMAQ&usg=AFQjCNH9-WtoSXOFW_zyz_nme-e2HAJhEg
Or Assad.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11894.htm
Seeing a pattern yet?
Good, because it's the reason many leaders have been "overthrown"...

Russia is a much bigger, much more powerful country. It's going to take a much bigger, much more powerful war.

The power of the banks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9R7GE7tHKE

ClovenHoof · 14-11-2016 9:33pm

I love both Trump and Brexit as it will lead to millions of civil servants losing their "jobs" and returning them to the evolutionary madate they were designed for: monkey organ griders and sucking cocks for loose change in bus station toilets.

Irish Praetorian · 14-11-2016 9:45pm

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

World war two didn't start because Hitler was taking over territory or killing Jews. In fact world leaders could not care less about that.
Remember this saying; 'Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.'
Or who is in any form of power.

Some of the first things Hitler did in territories he took control over was dismantle their central banks. There were hundreds of billions at stake and it was going to cost a hundred million lives to get them back. That's why the second world war happened. If Hitler was happy for money to be issued out of thin air at interest, he'd have been in power, killing Jews in Germany until the 80s.

So, is anything money related happening now, that could start a war? Well look at Russia, they've been crushed under sanctions for the ladt few years now. Why?
Is it because of the brouhaha in Ukraine? Their actions in Syria?
No. Russia is moving rapidly towards dumping the dollar for it's oil. It will want Roubles only, and likely yuan. Making their resources much cheaper than anything stuck to the high value dollar.

This is a direct threat to the hegemony that is the world reserve currency.
As long as countries sell oil in dollars, countries have to buy dollars in order to buy oil. This makes demand for dollars which makes their value.
Without it, the dollar is finished. It's a matter of survival now, that Americans crush anyone who threatens that hegemony.
Like Saddam Hussein.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwiR9qStjajQAhVKDsAKHaRlChsQFggoMAA&usg=AFQjCNENKp9gmns0--f9lpn1cV5o3BhZQg
Or Gaddafi.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi%253F0p19G%253De&ved=0ahUKEwjEh7njjajQAhXMLsAKHeo1DrsQFghhMAQ&usg=AFQjCNH9-WtoSXOFW_zyz_nme-e2HAJhEg
Or Assad.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11894.htm
Seeing a pattern yet?
Good, because it's the reason many leaders have been "overthrown"...

Russia is a much bigger, much more powerful country. It's going to take a much bigger, much more powerful war.

This is a little pet peeve of mine, primarily because I think it violates the old razor of not ascribing to malevolence what can more easily be explained by incompetence. I've made a few posts debunking the old 'Libyan Gold Dinar' canard but I would encourage everyone inclined to believe in these things to have a little more scepticism and dig around a little more. If anything all this talk of a looming war with Russia puts me in mind of all the talk about a looming war with Iran in the late 2000s which seemed 'so obvious' to people, or again talk of the Euro's imminent collapse by talking heads in Britain in the early 2010s. It's easy to look to these complex machinations as a means of throwing up ones hand and going 'oh well', but I think it behoves citizens of a nation to reject military action on its own terms, rather than just writing it all off as scheming bankers.

Also the 'Let me issue' quote is a corruption of an earlier quote about Ballads 'If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation'.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-11-2016 10:03pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

This is a little pet peeve of mine, primarily because I think it violates the old razor of not ascribing to malevolence what can more easily be explained by incompetence. I've made a few posts debunking the old 'Libyan Gold Dinar' canard but I would encourage everyone inclined to believe in these things to have a little more scepticism and dig around a little more. If anything all this talk of a looming war with Russia puts me in mind of all the talk about a looming war with Iran in the late 2000s which seemed 'so obvious' to people, or again talk of the Euro's imminent collapse by talking heads in Britain in the early 2010s. It's easy to look to these complex machinations as a means of throwing up ones hand and going 'oh well', but I think it behoves citizens of a nation to reject military action on its own terms, rather than just writing it all off as scheming bankers.

Also the 'Let me issue' quote is a corruption of an earlier quote about Ballads 'If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation'.

I don't put full stock into everything in those links, but the common pattern of leaders going against the interests of international finance and suddenly having to have their countries "freedomed" is undeniable.
Every major conflict has been a bankers conflict since banks figured out they could fund all sides of the Napoleonic Wars so that no matter who lost, they won.

Rejection of military action is important, but it is absolutely for the interest of global banking cabals that most major military actions occur.
If people stop demanding the U.S Dollar for their resources, the U.S Dollar is finished.

Deub · 14-11-2016 10:14pm

There is nothing better for the economy that a good war. The one you do in your own country. It means less people, everything to rebuild so everyone is busy and all people want is a better life for the next generation.
Also wars always accelerated discoveries (new killing machine, bomb) that will then be used for civilian stuffs.
So if the economy doesn't grow fast enough that is what will happen.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2016 10:29pm

I don't expect either Trump or Brexit to have a major impact. The globalisation agenda is too ingrained. Society is heading in directions that many people are uncomfortable with and feel they have no control over. Maybe the Brexit and Trump results will increase awareness among citizens that they can influence the future of our societies.

Richard Hillman · 14-11-2016 11:17pm

No.

Bin Laden attacked America
America responded
America responded some more.
Unrest went throughout the middle East.
Civil Wars took place.
Merkel invited everyone to the Europe.
Europe Revolted against the liberals
TBC

Irish Praetorian · 14-11-2016 11:56pm

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

I don't put full stock into everything in those links, but the common pattern of leaders going against the interests of international finance and suddenly having to have their countries "freedomed" is undeniable.
Every major conflict has been a bankers conflict since banks figured out they could fund all sides of the Napoleonic Wars so that no matter who lost, they won.

Rejection of military action is important, but it is absolutely for the interest of global banking cabals that most major military actions occur.
If people stop demanding the U.S Dollar for their resources, the U.S Dollar is finished.

I think 'leaders of international finance' might be going a bit far down the rabbit hole. I mean as far back as the Seven Years War the ability of nations (like Britain) to raise capital to fund wartime expenditure was a major advantage over nations that could not (France) but one has to have a very narrow view of history to portray every subsequent war as some kind of international banking ploy.

I might be able to offer something of a consolation, because certainly I believe its clearly documented that major industrial groups are quite eager to see things like military assistance to Israel because a large slice of that comes back to them in terms of procurement orders. Yet I still feel the notion of international business with sufficient agency to start wars is just a bit beyond the pale.

ChikiChiki · 15-11-2016 12:15am

I would say that actually the election of Trump and Brexit are pulling us away from conflict.

hytrogen · 15-11-2016 7:22am

ClovenHoof wrote:

I love both Trump and Brexit as it will lead to millions of civil servants losing their "jobs" and returning them to the evolutionary madate they were designed for: monkey organ griders and sucking cocks for loose change in bus station toilets.

Don't worry when the gates of hell open they'll make sure there's a front row seat for ya with priority boarding on one of Micks planes. A good culling of private sector fodder & peasants is what's needed, like that scene in toy story 3, slow and methodical squeezing out ever last ounce of fear :P

Shenshen · 15-11-2016 9:51am

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I would say that actually the election of Trump and Brexit are pulling us away from conflict.

In a different, calmer world they might.

The more I watch what Trumps actual plans seem to be, the more I get the feeling that what we're about to see is the USA retreating into isolationism.
It would leave a vacuum on the world stage, and as nature abhors a vacuum, one or more other nations or blocks would end up filling that.
The question is who, and what will their motives and goals be.

padd b1975 · 15-11-2016 10:06am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Time will tell. Given his history you would be a fool to be surprised by it.

So no actual policy then....

Just throw out a few slurs and hope they gain some traction.

Wanderer78 · 15-11-2016 10:22am

Sadly it does look like history is repeating itself, 29 crash/08 crash, rise of right in the 30's/ rise of the right in the 10's, 40's kaboom/20's ?????????

Shenshen · 15-11-2016 10:40am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sadly it does look like history is repeating itself, 29 crash/08 crash, rise of right in the 30's/ rise of the right in the 10's, 40's kaboom/20's ?????????

Well, we're not there yet. And right now, there's still plenty that can happen and be done to make sure that it won't end the same way.

Same as there was plenty that could have been done in the 30s.
In a way, the thought of the USA retreating isn't that unnerving in itself. My concern is what the rest of the world may or may not get up to.
Putin violating international borders is unsettling, but I suspect his reach is limited. Russia's economy and finances wouldn't stretch very far if faced with actual opposition, I don't think.

And naive, hopeful little me likes to think that after generations of collaboration, Europe's countries are unlikely to be at each others' throats again at the drop of a hat.

Wanderer78 · 15-11-2016 10:58am

I hope you're right, I really do. Antics of some current world leaders is unnerving. Some dangerous weirdos on this planet, and some of them are in positions of great power

Beanntraigheach · 17-11-2016 6:33pm

Bring it on, I say.
It'll make the news more interesting.

Are Trump and Brexit "Archduke Ferdinand" moments?

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