How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:33pm

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

The point was made before that it's probably a waste of time trying to change the minds of definite no voters and instead we should be focusing on those who don't know, who wouldn't normally vote but would vote yes in theory and ensure the already existing yes voters actually get out on the day and vote and not assume it's a done deal.

I would disagree with trying to engage with people like me.

I would like to think that compared to some people out there who will be voting no that I am on the calmer , discussing side.

But the no sides terrible weaknesses are the "holy joes / marys" out there. You know full well how a discussion regarding marriage equality will go with them and thats not going to benefit the no side either.

Annasopra · 28-01-2015 2:33pm

reprise wrote: »

Hi floggg,

I'm straight. Unlike Gerry Adams, I claim no expertise in homosexuality.

At marriage, I am a legend.

Thats nice.

Tell me. When did you choose to be straight?

Tasden · 28-01-2015 2:34pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But it does not change my fundamental opinion

But can you explain what exactly is your fundamental opinion? Like why is it ok for a man and woman to marry and not two men? Taking children out of the equation. Just a simple answer as to why one is ok and one isn't in your opinion. Is it due to religious teachings or that you see one as more "normal" because its what you grew up with or....?

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:34pm

Daith wrote: »

You're expecting people to call you names for your opinion.

You're opinions lack any logic though.

Have already been called names twice on thread it's par for the course at this stage.

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:34pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But the no sides terrible weaknesses are the "holy joes / marys" out there. You know full well how a discussion regarding marriage equality will go with them and thats not going to benefit the no side either.

It's the same issue you have though. It's all about children and they don't want to see same sex couples raising children or allowed to marry?

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:36pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Have already been called names twice on thread it's par for the course at this stage.

I'm referring to your arguments. You know gay people can adopt. You know gay couples will be allowed to adopt.

Showing issues with the logic of your argument isn't calling you names though.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:39pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't think you're a homophobe. I am surprised that you have so many gay friends and even more surprised you volunteer for Pride. I would find it hard to be friends with someone who judged my suitability as a parent on my sexual preferences. I'm just struggling to understand how you can only focus on that one part and ignore everything else.

I might be a rare example I dont know LOL. But in my eyes I see gay people as no different (I dont even see the need of pride per se). Volunteered couple of times actually for Pride (last one I volunteered at was when some numptys cuffed themselves to a bus or two).

But it still doesn't change my personally ingrained opinion about my thoughts / beliefs on the institutes of marriage and children.

But just like I respect gays , you have to show equal respect to my opinion (regardless of whether you think its right or wrong).

COYVB · 28-01-2015 2:39pm

What exactly are the issues "with regard to the adoption of children" that the poster has? has anyone asked?

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 2:40pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Call it trolling , ignorant, call it whatever you want, my upbringing in terms of family values, teachings and yes even religious views means I fundamently disagree with same sex marriage according to my personal values.

I don't understand why your personal values should be allowed to affect thousands of people. Or rather, why you're allowing your personal values to affect thousands of people.

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:40pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But just like I respect gays , you have to show equal respect to my opinion (regardless of whether you think its right or wrong).

You have the right to an opinion. You don't have any right for people to respect your opinion.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:40pm

Daith wrote: »

It's the same issue you have though. It's all about children and they don't want to see same sex couples raising children or allowed to marry?

Yes definitely the same issues but I think we can all agree their approach to the argument would be different to mine.

AtomicHorror · 28-01-2015 2:40pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But heres the thing alot of gay people don't understand that I can empathise, understand gay rights issues, not be afraid of gays (even if some of them can be OTT in your face annoying), form professional and friendly relationships and so on.

Do you hear yourself? Replace gay with black, see how that sounds in your head.

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 2:41pm

COYVB wrote: »

What exactly are the issues "with regard to the adoption of children" that the poster has? has anyone asked?

No, because it's not relevant. Adoption can already happen and will be able to happen as a unit before the referendum. The referendum is nothing to do with adoption and will have no baring on whether gay couples can adopt.

COYVB · 28-01-2015 2:42pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Call it trolling , ignorant, call it whatever you want, my upbringing in terms of family values, teachings and yes even religious views means I fundamently disagree with same sex marriage according to my personal values.

Good thing nobody is forcing you to marry a man then

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:42pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Yes definitely the same issues but I think we can all agree their approach to the argument would be different to mine.

No, not really which is why I'm getting confused.

All their arguments ignore that gay people can adopt already and boils down to "it's my opinion and that's it".

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:42pm

Daith wrote: »

You have the right to an opinion. You don't have any right for people to respect your opinion.

Well then do not ask me to respect considering marriage equality for homosexuals.

COYVB · 28-01-2015 2:43pm

sup_dude wrote: »

No, because it's not relevant. Adoption can already happen and will be able to happen as a unit before the referendum. The referendum is nothing to do with adoption and will have no baring on whether gay couples can adopt.

It's very relevant though, because if he specifies what exactly his problem is then it can be discussed. Not asking, and not discussing, means no furthering of anyone's understanding of things - which is never good

AtomicHorror · 28-01-2015 2:43pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But just like I respect gays , you have to show equal respect to my opinion (regardless of whether you think its right or wrong).

How noble of you to respect human beings. Opinions are unworthy of respect. They are to be attacked, forever, so that only the valid stands. Get used to that, because we're not going to stop.

eviltwin · 28-01-2015 2:43pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I might be a rare example I dont know LOL. But in my eyes I see gay people as no different (I dont even see the need of pride per se). Volunteered couple of times actually for Pride (last one I volunteered at was when some numptys cuffed themselves to a bus or two).

But it still doesn't change my personally ingrained opinion about my thoughts / beliefs on the institutes of marriage and children.

But just like I respect gays , you have to show equal respect to my opinion (regardless of whether you think its right or wrong).

You obviously do see gay people as different. Going back to your gay friends, they aren't just some abstract group, you actually know these people, you must acknowledge each and every one of them is an individual with their own strengths and weaknesses independent of their sexuality. I don't see how then you can look beyond that and only focus on one part of their life. It just seems extremely judgemental and unfair.

floggg · 28-01-2015 2:43pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I'm not playing any victim

I've read plenty of figures reports mainly from the US in particular and I will not only agree with you but I will say that in some cases the children have excelled and like I said earlier plenty of straight couples people do not value the family unit (regardless of its shape) either.

But it does not change my fundamental opinion

Then what, if anything, is the reason for your objection?

If there is no principled reason for your objection, other it's what you believe, then its hard to really contest accusations of prejudice.

How else could you describe opposing rights for one group simply because you personally don't think they should have them?

If I've missed something in your position, or mis-charachterising it by all means correct me?

(as you should see from my above posts, that's not a knee jerk conclusion either but it's the only conclusion I can come to having read your posts).

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:44pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Well then do not ask me to respect considering marriage equality for homosexuals.

I never did.

You have the right to an opinion and people have the right to form an opinion of your opinion. No one has to respect anything.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:45pm

Daith wrote: »

So you don't support equality for gay people. Can you not just say that?

You just seem to want people to call you whatever. Not sure I get the point of that.

No because thats not true.

For a practical and very simple example, I support the recognition of rights of a long term partner in hospitals etc of which there has been many an issue regarding same sex couples.

I support equality for gays on pretty much everything but my personal line where that support stops is marriage and children.

TheBeardedLady · 28-01-2015 2:45pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I would disagree with trying to engage with people like me.

What are people like you?

Could you be persuaded to vote yes, do you think? Is there any way at all you'd change your mind? If not, then I wouldn't waste my time trying to wear you down as it's pointless exercise just as it would be totally futile for you to try and convince me to vote no. I'm all for engaging in debate here on Boards but in real life, we have so little time and the focus should be on those who are not so sure of their decision.

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 2:45pm

COYVB wrote: »

It's very relevant though, because if he specifies what exactly his problem is then it can be discussed. Not asking, and not discussing, means no furthering of anyone's understanding of things - which is never good

It doesn't need to be discussed. All the poster needs to know is that, whether he wants it to happen or not, adoption will happen. This is not up for debate, it is not up for referendum. This is solely about SSM and if the poster opposes SSM due to something that has nothing to do with it, the only thing we need to do is to inform them that their reason has nothing to do with the referendum. Discussing the reason is off topic because it's not relevant to the referendum or this thread.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:45pm

Daith wrote: »

I never did.

You have the right to an opinion and people have the right to form an opinion of your opinion. No one has to respect anything.

I think you may have missed the point I was making

COYVB · 28-01-2015 2:46pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

my personal line where that support stops is marriage and children.

Why?

COYVB · 28-01-2015 2:46pm

sup_dude wrote: »

It doesn't need to be discussed. All the poster needs to know is that, whether he wants it to happen or not, adoption will happen. This is not up for debate, it is not up for referendum. This is solely about SSM and if the poster opposes SSM due to something that has nothing to do with it, the only thing we need to do is to inform them that their reason has nothing to do with the referendum. Discussing the reason is off topic because it's not relevant to the referendum or this thread.

It's hugely relevant if someone is saying they're voting no in the referendum, in a thread about the referendum

Tasden · 28-01-2015 2:49pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

No because thats not true.

For a practical and very simple example, I support the recognition of rights of a long term partner in hospitals etc of which there has been many an issue regarding same sex couples.

I support equality for gays on pretty much everything but my personal line where that support stops is marriage and children.

I'll ask again since you didn't answer last time I asked. If you take children out of the equation, why is it you're opposed to two men marrying and not a man and woman? Not in relation to children, just the two men marrying each other? Why do you not support that?

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 2:49pm

COYVB wrote: »

It's hugely relevant if someone is saying they're voting no in the referendum, in a thread about the referendum

It's enough to say it's not relevant. Would we discuss whether all clouds should be painted blue because someone is using that as a reason to vote no? We wouldn't because whether clouds are blue or not does not have any baring on what the referendum is trying to achieve. All that needs to be done is point out that painting clouds blue doesn't affect a referendum on SSM. Similarly, adoption doesn't have affect a referendum on SSM

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:49pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Do you hear yourself? Replace gay with black, see how that sounds in your head.

And again comments like that will win no arguments or referendums either.

Trying to compare me to a racist has no bearing on this discussion and respectfully trying to compare anyone who offers similar views will only further harden their stance to the no side (if even possible)

jobbridge4life · 28-01-2015 2:49pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Firstly, can I just say I appreciate logical / thought out responses as opposed to responses like spikes.

You are 100% right in your rationale two is better than 1 and a long term committed relationship is better (and I will also concede that straight couples do not value long term either).

Call it trolling , ignorant, call it whatever you want, my upbringing in terms of family values, teachings and yes even religious views means I fundamently disagree with same sex marriage according to my personal values.

That doesn't mean I don't support gay issues / equality on a myriad of other things because I do. But for me I personally draw the line at the institute of children and marriage.

And frankly the pro side will have to engage with people like me with no fully rational reason en masse to win this referendum.

What personal views or values and how do they prevent you from supporting the equality of your friends and the equal protection under the law of their children? You have mentioned having plenty but so far the only reason you have offered is children. This reason has been thoroughly debunked however by numerous posters. What are the remaining reason you believe that you deserve more rights than your fellow citizens who happen to be gay?

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 2:50pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

And again comments like that will win no arguments or referendums either.

Trying to compare me to a racist has no bearing on this discussion and respectfully trying to compare anyone who offers similar views will only further harden their stance to the no side (if even possible)

He never said you were a racist. However, if you put the word black instead of gay and even you think it makes you sound like a racist, how do you think having the word gay there sounds?

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:51pm

COYVB wrote: »

Good thing nobody is forcing you to marry a man then

I fail to see the point of this post? Firstly, in Ireland no one can be "forced" to marry and secondly as I'm obviously heterosexual bringing a man into it is even more pointless.

eviltwin · 28-01-2015 2:52pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

No because thats not true.

For a practical and very simple example, I support the recognition of rights of a long term partner in hospitals etc of which there has been many an issue regarding same sex couples.

I support equality for gays on pretty much everything but my personal line where that support stops is marriage and children.

Do you really believe the children of Ireland will be worse off if this passes?

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:53pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I think you may have missed the point I was making

You haven't made any points?

COYVB · 28-01-2015 2:54pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I fail to see the point of this post? Firstly, in Ireland no one can be "forced" to marry and secondly as I'm obviously heterosexual bringing a man into it is even more pointless.

The point is that gays being able to marry doesn't affect you, since you are neither gay, nor seeking to marry a man. It doesn't affect your way of life. It doesn't affect your religion, which most likely bans gay activity ensuring that according to your beliefs gay couples will be punished anyway.

It affects no part of your life, and yet you're STILL going to actively attempt to prevent it from being allowed

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:55pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

How noble of you to respect human beings. Opinions are unworthy of respect. They are to be attacked, forever, so that only the valid stands. Get used to that, because we're not going to stop.

I wouldnt call it noble i'd would call common human decency.

You do realize right that naturally gays will of course gain equality including marriage in this country (even if not this referendum).

I'd be fair suprised to find someone who doesnt think it won't come to Ireland.

Daith · 28-01-2015 2:56pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

You do realize right that naturally gays will of course gain equality including marriage in this country (even if not this referendum).

Just that you won't support it in this referendum?

eviltwin · 28-01-2015 2:57pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I wouldnt call it noble i'd would call common human decency.

You do realize right that naturally gays will of course gain equality including marriage in this country (even if not this referendum).

I'd be fair suprised to find someone who doesnt think it won't come to Ireland.

So why make them wait? This is huge for gay people and their loved ones. You say you support gay rights, well prove it then!

B.A._Baracus · 28-01-2015 2:58pm

I can't be the only one who thinks these threads are nothing more than alot of people hoping.... begging... waiting for another user to come and say "I am voting no because XYZ" - Then for everyone to pounce on that poster at once

Like isn't this the 4th or 5th thread with a poll within the last year in After Hours.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 28-01-2015 2:59pm

eviltwin wrote: »

You obviously do see gay people as different. Going back to your gay friends, they aren't just some abstract group, you actually know these people, you must acknowledge each and every one of them is an individual with their own strengths and weaknesses independent of their sexuality. I don't see how then you can look beyond that and only focus on one part of their life. It just seems extremely judgemental and unfair.

I don't focus on one aspect of my gay friends however and I'm sure I don't need to explain but there are those that allow being homosexual "define" them (you know the queens / OTT type that piss off many a person in a bar.

So if they want to be defined that way I will oblige.

On the other hand, other gay friends are gay, they barely mention it and are open in public about it but don't ram it down your throat about their sexuality.

Slightly convaluted point but hopefully you understand what Im getting at

eviltwin · 28-01-2015 3:00pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I don't focus on one aspect of my gay friends however and I'm sure I don't need to explain but there are those that allow being homosexual "define" them (you know the queens / OTT type that piss off many a person in a bar.

So if they want to be defined that way I will oblige.

On the other hand, other gay friends are gay, they barely mention it and are open in public about it but don't ram it down your throat about their sexuality.

Slightly convaluted point but hopefully you understand what Im getting at

No not really. What is it about your friends that you don't think they will make suitable parents?

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 3:01pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I can't be the only one who thinks these threads are nothing more than alot of people hoping.... begging... waiting for another user to come and say "I am voting no because XYZ" - Then for everyone to pounce on that poster at once

Like isn't this the 4th or 5th thread with a poll within the last year in After Hours.

I think it's more like people talking about their choices and then some people coming up with silly reasons to vote no and expecting others to grovel in order to change their vote

28-01-2015 3:02pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

You are 100% right in your rationale two is better than 1

We are agreed on that for sure then. But actually I was not just making the 2 is better than 1 point in terms of parenting. I think we all agree two parents sharing the task is better than 1.

But the point I was really making was then when the adoption agency is placing a child - IF there are two parents there it is better that know this information - rather than evaluating the case based on half the information.

In other words: Without gay marriage we have gay adopting couples already - but the adoption agencies do not have the full information while evaluating the case. WITH gay marriage we have exactly the same thing - but better informed agencies. So it is win-win and I see no reason why your choice to a "no" vote will therefore be the right one?

This is before you get into the idea that a child might grow up with gay parents from adoption - but without marriage if the actual adopting parent were to die - the unmarried gay partner - who the child likely sees as being a full parent - will have no rights to the child and it would be possibly taken away. How is this a good thing?

Given therefore that gay couples already adopt - a "no" vote will do literally nothing good - where a "yes" vote would. So in the light of this - does your position not therefore require some re-thought?

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Call it trolling , ignorant, call it whatever you want

I do not recall having called it anything - I have merely corrected your errors and highlighted the fallacious reasoning behind your position. I do attempt to do this without labeling or name calling of any sort - I think you will notice

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

, my upbringing in terms of family values, teachings and yes even religious views means I fundamently disagree with same sex marriage according to my personal values.

But no one is requring you enter into a same sex marriage. You can allow others to do so without compromising your personal values. However by voting like you intend to - the "my personal values" card is not a move you can make any more. Because it is not personal anymore. You are enforcing your personal values on others.

If your personal values are against gay marriage - then simply do not marry someone of the same sex. Problem solved. My personal values are against drinking until I get very drunk. Does not mean I feel I should stop anyone else doing it. "My personal values" sounds good on paper - but when you unpack it it says a lot less than you might think - and a lot more than you might want. It is essentially a cop out.

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

And frankly the pro side will have to engage with people like me with no fully rational reason en masse to win this referendum.

And how does one "engage" with people if their position is essentially "Just because"? There is an old saying that goes "You can not reason someone out of a position they did not first reason themselves into".

COYVB wrote: »

What exactly are the issues "with regard to the adoption of children" that the poster has? has anyone asked?

I did. No answer was forthcoming.

Annasopra · 28-01-2015 3:02pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I don't focus on one aspect of my gay friends however and I'm sure I don't need to explain but there are those that allow being homosexual "define" them (you know the queens / OTT type that piss off many a person in a bar.

So if they want to be defined that way I will oblige.

On the other hand, other gay friends are gay, they barely mention it and are open in public about it but don't ram it down your throat about their sexuality.

Slightly convaluted point but hopefully you understand what Im getting at

No. Havent a clue what you are on about.

Ave Sodalis · 28-01-2015 3:06pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I don't focus on one aspect of my gay friends however and I'm sure I don't need to explain but there are those that allow being homosexual "define" them (you know the queens / OTT type that piss off many a person in a bar.

So if they want to be defined that way I will oblige.

On the other hand, other gay friends are gay, they barely mention it and are open in public about it but don't ram it down your throat about their sexuality.

Slightly convaluted point but hopefully you understand what Im getting at

I've never seen anyone ram their sexuality down someone's throat except a few straight people, but maybe you don't define that as harshly trying to convert someone to their ways.

Either way, what has this to do with marriage? Are you saying no because you don't like overly flamboyant gays? I hope not because they're going to exist whether they're married or not.

What about people who allow their religion to define them? What about people who allow their looks to define them? Should they be allowed to marry?

spikeS · 28-01-2015 3:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We are agreed on that for sure then. But actually I was not just making the 2 is better than 1 point in terms of parenting. I think we all agree two parents sharing the task is better than 1.

Single parents can be just as good if not better then a couple, it's pretty hateful to say single parents make worse parents

MrPudding · 28-01-2015 3:07pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Plenty, to be honest in principle I have no problems with equal rights for gay couples and indeed have close friends who are struggling with many aspects of equality after herself and herself got married up North so I do understand the various complexities gay couples have in terms of recognition of many different things with the State.

But heres the thing, as I have many close gay friends of both sexes I do not agree with the doors and issues that it will open up in the future particularly with regard to adoption of children.

And yes I know obviously its possible for 2 women to have a child (as my friends above have done) but thats biological advantage to women same sex couples.

Could you clarify what you mean by the bit I have bolded please?

MrP

28-01-2015 3:07pm

spikeS wrote: »

Single parents can be just as good if not better then a couple, it's pretty hateful to say single parents make worse parents

Lucky I never said any such thing then - is it not. And you might want to read my other posts on this very thread on the subject of single parents before you jump to any other conclusions.

seamus · 28-01-2015 3:08pm

You've continually failed to explain why you believe that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry Ctrl Alt Delete, so I'm going to go ahead and assume it's just plain old prejudice.

If it wasn't, you would be able to explain your reasoning beyond "personal values".

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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