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Stove VS Half job of New Windows for keeping warm

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    #32
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    All good advice Greebo but as the person mentioned about buying 3 out of 8 windows I just don't see why you would spend a limited budget on a survey.

    Yes do a survey long term and you will have it for the life of the house but if the budget is limited to 3 window and a survey or 4 windows I would go with the 4 windows.

    No matter what survey you do a single glazed window will release a lot more heat than a double glazed window. Also the single glazed are probably wooden which means they could be an issue with rot which means more heat release. Also those wooden windows never shut right so you had air loss out gaps all over the place.

    Survey's are good, don't get me wrong, but personally I would do the basic's before doing a survey. Especially if budget is tight


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    #33
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,796 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks again folks! Starting to all make sense now! Yup, the insulation is in the floor between the joists, and the attic is always colder than the rest of the house, so I guess that's a good thing. Would adding insulation on the rafters improve things or make it worse?

    Interesting about the concrete base too. I can't be sure whether it's insulated below the plinth of concrete or not though, the floor gets cold, but not freezing.

    I completely forgot the point that an open fire will suck all the warm air up, so maybe getting a stove would be a much better idea than getting only some of the windows replaced, as this will mean the stove can be closed over to prevent that suck from happening.

    The homeowner is at the age of retirement and comfort is important for them, while on a low budget. It'll be better coming into the warmer months alright, so maybe they can hold off for a while and try find an affordable survey, but maybe to start with a stove install?

    Yep, the current windows are single pane and are wooden too, so not great. Maybe in that case so... without spending money on a survey, if it's going to be over €500 say, to put money into a new stove which will block the chimney through the stove door, and then try patch up the window with foam strips or the seal things mentioned?


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    #34
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    All good advice Greebo but as the person mentioned about buying 3 out of 8 windows I just don't see why you would spend a limited budget on a survey.

    Yes do a survey long term and you will have it for the life of the house but if the budget is limited to 3 window and a survey or 4 windows I would go with the 4 windows.

    No matter what survey you do a single glazed window will release a lot more heat than a double glazed window. Also the single glazed are probably wooden which means they could be an issue with rot which means more heat release. Also those wooden windows never shut right so you had air loss out gaps all over the place.

    Survey's are good, don't get me wrong, but personally I would do the basic's before doing a survey. Especially if budget is tight

    A survey tells you what the basics are though, that's why you get them.

    Sure double glazed is better than single but triple is better than double.
    There are diminishing returns though. New windows with a good r value are pointless if you have an open hearth and an uninsulated slab


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    #35
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks again folks! Starting to all make sense now! Yup, the insulation is in the floor between the joists, and the attic is always colder than the rest of the house, so I guess that's a good thing. Would adding insulation on the rafters improve things or make it worse?

    Interesting about the concrete base too. I can't be sure whether it's insulated below the plinth of concrete or not though, the floor gets cold, but not freezing.

    I completely forgot the point that an open fire will suck all the warm air up, so maybe getting a stove would be a much better idea than getting only some of the windows replaced, as this will mean the stove can be closed over to prevent that suck from happening.

    The homeowner is at the age of retirement and comfort is important for them, while on a low budget. It'll be better coming into the warmer months alright, so maybe they can hold off for a while and try find an affordable survey, but maybe to start with a stove install?

    Yep, the current windows are single pane and are wooden too, so not great. Maybe in that case so... without spending money on a survey, if it's going to be over €500 say, to put money into a new stove which will block the chimney through the stove door, and then try patch up the window with foam strips or the seal things mentioned?

    If you put insulation into the rafters then you are changing the attic to a warm zone but not giving it a heat source so will actually cause condensation problems. Any insulation should go on the floor and the attic access points.

    If the windows are single glazed and wooden then replacing then is probably a good idea but you'd want to do them all. A simple text with a flame will show you any drafts which you can seal yourself with foam tape. Most of the problem is air leaking rather than the single pane.

    You can block the chimney without buying a stove... Do they actually want one as out will be an ongoing expense and not cheap to install in the first place


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    #36
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Swapping the open fire is a huge help, in my first house I could have a roaring fire and stand in front of it and no real heat, it was all flying up chimney. Replacing with stove cost 1k or so and the heat meant even with a small fire I had to leave door open to let heat out of room

    In my current house I dug up the concrete floors and put down insulation etc and then put in new floors....BIG job, something I would not like to do again. We had micro digger in but still a huge amount of heavy lifting etc. I am sure if you have the room height they have options now to insulation without digging up the floors....quick google and a few options around

    Wooden windows and single pane...disaster....we have a holiday home and it was like a ice box with those windows, half the time it was warmer outside. Swapping them out and it will make a huge difference. Now even with a small bit of heat the house is toasty....even with no insulation in attic and older radiators etc(this is my next project)


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    #37
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,796 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks again for the advice! So seems a unanimous opinion to get the stove done before the windows. The homeowner loves the open fire and always has it on, a stove would give the same open fire effect, in what I think they would much prefer the slow burn of a stove. It will also reduce fuel bills and then block the chimney up too, so if this is the suggested immediate solution, then this along with sealing the existing windows is probably the thing to do until they can then afford to replace all windows.

    Maybe an oil fueled combi boiler then with the stove if they can afford it so they have instant heat for rads and water too?


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    #38
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks again for the advice! So seems a unanimous opinion to get the stove done before the windows. The homeowner loves the open fire and always has it on, a stove would give the same open fire effect, in what I think they would much prefer the slow burn of a stove. It will also reduce fuel bills and then block the chimney up too, so if this is the suggested immediate solution, then this along with sealing the existing windows is probably the thing to do until they can then afford to replace all windows.

    Maybe an oil fueled combi boiler then with the stove if they can afford it so they have instant heat for rads and water too?


    Keep the back boiler on the stove, it might cost more for the installation but it will be a great help if they like to light a fire.....


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    #39
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,826 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If you can find someone to do full survey including thermal image and blower test for 500 quid, please share....

    Check out post #9 in this thread


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    #40
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    MicktheMan wrote: »
    Check out post #9 in this thread




    That's a price on a forum, ask a contractor and see how much they will do for 400 quid


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    #41
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    If they actually use the fire them by all means switch to a stove as its cheaper to run.


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    #42
    Who2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭Who2


    If the person is elderly and I presume on the pension , then the council will cover a lot of the works required, get onto citizens info or go check out seai grants there’s a good few ways it can all be done for next to nothing.


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    #43
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ravendude


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks again for all the help.

    I'll ask about the walls being pumped, I think there may have been drilling done from outside so there's a chance they were pumped from the outside.

    Also, - if you have an esb meter box, open it, - often the cavity is open inside the box and you should be able to see bonded bead insulation in the cavity.


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    #44
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ravendude


    GreeBo wrote: »

    An uninsulated concrete base means your heating is constantly trying to heat up the concrete which in turn is trying to heat up the ground. Heating an insulated concrete base is great as it will retain the heat for a long time and slowly release it back into the house as needed (a heat sink).

    Is it impossible to tell if the concrete floor plinth/slab was insulated? Pretty sure mine is concrete.
    My house was built in the mid to late 90s, - what was the norm back then in this regard?

    Presumably remedying an un-insulated concrete floor would be a huge job, - (eg. we have solid wood floors throughout the ground floor) If you suspect the worst (no insulation) in the concrete floor base, - can anything be done in terms of the flooring itself? Would wood or laminate floors help (wood being an insulator), say versus tiles?


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    #45
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ravendude wrote: »
    Is it impossible to tell if the concrete floor plinth/slab was insulated? Pretty sure mine is concrete.
    My house was built in the mid to late 90s, - what was the norm back then in this regard?
    If you suspect the worst (no insulation) in the concrete floor base, - can anything be done in terms of the flooring itself? Would wood or laminate floors help (wood being an insulator), say versus tiles?

    Sure its possible to determine, but you need to (usually) take up a core sample.

    You might be able to tell if you look where the mains water comes into the house, assuming it comes up through the floor.

    There is a whole thread here recently on the subject, https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057950111

    For a 90's house I would expect insulation tbh, but if there isn't Im not sure what you can do. Certainly wood will be warmer to the touch tiles would be very cold. There are slimline underfloor heating options but they require raising the floor some amount as you need to insulate under them otherwise you are heating the slab rather than the floor you stand o.


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    #46
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks again for the advice! So seems a unanimous opinion to get the stove done before the windows. The homeowner loves the open fire and always has it on, a stove would give the same open fire effect, in what I think they would much prefer the slow burn of a stove. It will also reduce fuel bills and then block the chimney up too, so if this is the suggested immediate solution, then this along with sealing the existing windows is probably the thing to do until they can then afford to replace all windows.

    Maybe an oil fueled combi boiler then with the stove if they can afford it so they have instant heat for rads and water too?

    Do windows first!! A stove will heat the room. If it heats the house the room will be to hot for comfort , after the windows are done you mightn’t need a stove at all


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    #47
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Shefwedfan wrote: »

    Replacing 3 windows, you will probably install from inside so will need to replanted and paint, messy job so better off doing once

    A good installer won’t need to do the above. We got windows done recently and the installer did a super job. Knocked out the old window frames from the inside and fitted new one. Left no marks


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    #48
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Unless you ask the installer will not do it.....





    If you can find someone to do full survey including thermal image and blower test for 500 quid, please share....
    A good installer will fit a membrane. Around the window without being asked.


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    #49
    S'
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭S'


    ted1 wrote: »
    A good installer will fit a membrane. Around the window without being asked.

    Are there any any installers that do this?? I will be replacing my windows soon and would like a membrane fitted around the window.

    11.2kWp E/W split arra. Mayo



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    #50
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    S' wrote: »
    Are there any any installers that do this?? I will be replacing my windows soon and would like a membrane fitted around the window.

    can we post company names here ? I used https://www.snip.ie/


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    #51
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,796 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Keep the back boiler on the stove, it might cost more for the installation but it will be a great help if they like to light a fire.....

    I was advised previously in another HUGE thread which had all kinds of stove experts and everything to go for a stove without the back boiler and to get an independent boiler. This was even the advice from a guy who sold clearview stoves and would probably make more money off an install/stove with a back boiler :o

    MicktheMan wrote: »
    Check out post #9 in this thread

    Thanks, I sent them a PM to ask who did it!
    Who2 wrote: »
    If the person is elderly and I presume on the pension , then the council will cover a lot of the works required, get onto citizens info or go check out seai grants there’s a good few ways it can all be done for next to nothing.

    I think they already took advantage of this, I'll get them to check if there's any further improvements they can get a grant for though, thanks!
    ted1 wrote: »
    Do windows first!! A stove will heat the room. If it heats the house the room will be to hot for comfort , after the windows are done you mightn’t need a stove at all

    The problem is they can't afford to do all windows now, so it'd do very little for heat retention to just replace not even half the windows.

    As Greebo mentions above, they use the open fire a lot anyway, so a stove install seems to be the best option for now, both to block up the chimney when the fire isn't in use, to get more efficient heat from the fuel being burned, and it would also be a lot easier for them in terms of the burn rate of fuel and cost them less to stock on fuel too, and if they are just using hardwood, it'll be cleaner etc too. They love to sit in front of the fire, so a stove would add an extra element of comfort as opposed to the heat savings.


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    #52
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    cormie wrote: »
    I was advised previously in another HUGE thread which had all kinds of stove experts and everything to go for a stove without the back boiler and to get an independent boiler. This was even the advice from a guy who sold clearview stoves and would probably make more money off an install/stove with a back boiler :o




    Thanks, I sent them a PM to ask who did it!



    I think they already took advantage of this, I'll get them to check if there's any further improvements they can get a grant for though, thanks!



    The problem is they can't afford to do all windows now, so it'd do very little for heat retention to just replace not even half the windows.

    As Greebo mentions above, they use the open fire a lot anyway, so a stove install seems to be the best option for now, both to block up the chimney when the fire isn't in use, to get more efficient heat from the fuel being burned, and it would also be a lot easier for them in terms of the burn rate of fuel and cost them less to stock on fuel too, and if they are just using hardwood, it'll be cleaner etc too. They love to sit in front of the fire, so a stove would add an extra element of comfort as opposed to the heat savings.

    By the time you get a stove fitted and the chimney properly lined. You are looking at about 2.5k

    Doing the bedroom windows and main living space will make a huge difference


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    #53
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    cormie wrote: »
    I was advised previously in another HUGE thread which had all kinds of stove experts and everything to go for a stove without the back boiler and to get an independent boiler. This was even the advice from a guy who sold clearview stoves and would probably make more money off an install/stove with a back boiler :o


    It personal choice. I had one house just with stove to heat a room. The room would be roasted and the rest of the house cold unless you turned on the gas heating....


    I used to open the door to try and get the heat around the house but didnt work


    Current house has 2 stoves. One room heater and one connected to heaing system.



    The room heater is good because the room is huge but most days we light the one connected to heating, it will burn away all day and keep the whole house nicely warm, it will just keep the radiator warm which is great, so most days if it is going we dont kick on the oil heating.....


    I would not have the stove as a standalone heating system but it is great as a backup option


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    #54
    denismc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭denismc


    So I was asked about an energy survey I had done recently.
    I moved into my current house over 2 years ago but I didn't know its construction history but there were a couple of cold rooms in the house.

    Now in most houses there are several obvious places where heat is lost e.g open fireplace, bad door and window seals. Then there places where the heat being lost is not obvious e.g gaps in insulation, thermal bridging etc.
    The only way to identify hidden heat loss is by doing a comprehensive energy survey.

    My survey consisted of an air tightness report, thermal imaging to show cold spots and a list of recommendations at the end.

    The final report was over 36 pages with thermal images of every part of the house.
    The cost to me was 400 euro and not thousands as another poster suggested, and it was well worth it imo.


    Turns out the big issue in my house was airtightness with a figure of


    11.5 m
    3/hr/m2.


    I have attached a few screenshots of my report below to give an idea of what it contains and I have added the link to the engineers website below ( he is in Cork but there are any number of engineers around the country that offer similar services)
    http://www.snip.ie/

    472859.jpg
    472860.jpg
    472861.jpg


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    #55
    denismc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭denismc


    Apologies for the bad editing in the post above.

    I am not allowed post the companies name publically so if anyone wants the name of the company in the post above send me a PM.

    The company is based in Cork but they may travel.


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    #56
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,796 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    That sounds like a pretty good investment for €400! Does that include the blower test mentioned above too?

    Shefwedfan, now I remember a little better, I think it was suggested to have an up and downstairs option on the boiler, so you could heat the upstairs rads only with the boiler, and then the downstairs would be heated with the stove. The open fire does a good enough job of heating the living room and kitchen at the moment, so there's no reason the stove wouldn't either I guess? Could maybe even put the hall rad on the upstairs half, so the doors to the hall leading upstairs can be kept closedand the hall will still be warm too.

    Ted1, yep I recall the stove and lining costing around that much, but that'd be the full job done and the chimney blocked... whereas that same money spend on 3 windows would still leave more than half the windows left as well as the big air sucking chimney open and a less efficient heating system in the open fire and higher cost to keep it burning.


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    #57
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Just on grants- as they are elderly they should check out the Warmer Homes scheme by the SEAI. The scheme is run on behalf of the SEAI by www.kore.ie who do a lot of commerical insulation jobs. Windows though are generally not included on it but they do sometimes make exceptions and maybe elderly people with single glazing might be one such exception.

    Also OP if you want to track draughts without going to the expense of blower or infra red testing then think of buying a smoke pen which are good for finding out where the exactly the cold air is coming in. They're about 20 quid and on Amazon, ebay, etc.


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    #58
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    cormie wrote: »
    That sounds like a pretty good investment for €400! Does that include the blower test mentioned above too?

    Shefwedfan, now I remember a little better, I think it was suggested to have an up and downstairs option on the boiler, so you could heat the upstairs rads only with the boiler, and then the downstairs would be heated with the stove. The open fire does a good enough job of heating the living room and kitchen at the moment, so there's no reason the stove wouldn't either I guess? Could maybe even put the hall rad on the upstairs half, so the doors to the hall leading upstairs can be kept closedand the hall will still be warm too.

    Ted1, yep I recall the stove and lining costing around that much, but that'd be the full job done and the chimney blocked... whereas that same money spend on 3 windows would still leave more than half the windows left as well as the big air sucking chimney open and a less efficient heating system in the open fire and higher cost to keep it burning.
    And not doing the Windows’s means the house will always be Baltic unless the stive is lit. And asi said if it’s heating the house the room it’s in will be too uncomfortable


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    #59
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    denismc wrote: »
    So I was asked about an energy survey I had done recently.
    I moved into my current house over 2 years ago but I didn't know its construction history but there were a couple of cold rooms in the house.

    How would you go about removing drafts from sockets, ceiling lights and skirting boards etc?


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    #60
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    enfant terrible wrote: »
    How would you go about removing drafts from sockets, ceiling lights and skirting boards etc?

    Unless you are doing a retro all you can really do is seal around the outside of the items with some caulk.
    You could take the sockets and play around with expanding foam but thats going to be much more hassle and there are safety implications when encasing cables in foam.

    Second floor ceiling lights can be addressed from the attic.

    If you are more adventurous you can remove the skirting and foam the gap between your plasterboard and the floor and then replace the skirting. Note that this (along with any other remediation) can result in increasing the draft somewhere else.
    Better to try to find the source of the airflow (often there is nothing in the attic to seal between the cavities in your walls and there was a thread on here recently about ways to remedy that)


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    #61
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,796 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    ted1 wrote: »
    And not doing the Windows’s means the house will always be Baltic unless the stive is lit. And asi said if it’s heating the house the room it’s in will be too uncomfortable

    Thanks, would only be looking for it to heat the sitting room and kitchen, then have the upstairs rads separated from the downstairs ones for when the stove is on :)


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