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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭Jerichoholic


    There was absolutely no outrage over Catherine when it came out years ago. It's as if they are mindless sheep pretending to be offended by anything they're told to be offended by.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    There was absolutely no outrage over Catherine when it came out years ago.

    Here's the thing: there's not a whole lot of it now either (also: there are circa 2011 critiques of the game that highlight such concerns). There's a small subset of people concerned about these issues in relations to Catherine, and a smaller subset again 'outraged' over it.

    This falls into the trap of many of the gaming 'outrages' blown out of proportion. This is the Internet: there's always going to be a small amount of people outraged about something - take those complaining about playable women in Battlefield 1 ("something something historical accuracy something something"). That's one of the consequences of social media. Equally, there's going to be people who'll get outraged about the outrage, even if there's not even much outrage in the first place - this is the model many of the furious 'anti-SJW' YouTube and blogger types peddle. Every small twitter spat or semi-busy ResetEra thread is fair game. Many of these are the same sort of people who, incidentally, pull a rager whenever a game has any vaguely progressive message in it.

    I had a look at the ResetEra page about the Catherine controversy. It comes across as legitimate criticism taken a few steps too far by one crusading poster. The poster in question highlights that they got 50 members - 50 out of a site that right at this second has more than 4,500 members online - to sign a petition to add it to a banned list of games on the site (it wasn't added to the list of banned games). That is so farcically low it barely warrants commenting on, but no surprise the whole thing has been disproportionately signal-boosted by a different brand of outrage merchants. For a more extreme examples of this effect, there's the Cuphead racism 'controversy' or the Doom trailer 'controversy' which weren't controversies at all. But there were angry gamers who needed content to rattle their viewer/readership:



    One the big problems with the whole 'outrage culture' is that actual criticism and concerns are dismissed as mere outrage. There are legitimate concerns to be levelled at Atlus over the way they handle gay and trans characters - some of their writing is hilariously, cringe-level bad in that respect (there's two gay characters that show up in Persona 5 who are basically straight out of a Carry On film, at best), and easily something I can see people being turned off by especially if they're more directly impacted by these things. 'Cultural differences' doesn't magically wave away any clunky handling of these things (I mean, Japan is the country that gave us one of the great gay films of the 1960s with Funeral Parade of Roses).

    If people want to discuss and critique these things, that's very often a good thing - not every criticism = 'outrage'! There are always 'bad takes' as well, exponentially so when anyone can throw up any old ****e online. But, sadly, there's a subset of people out there who believe any criticism of any given game is beyond the pale.

    I try to stay away from the whole identity politics / culture war side of things these days, because honestly it's a shortcut to a headache. But always important to stress that the outrage culture flows both ways - for every person outraged about the representation of trans characters in a game, there's another outraged about the outrage, and then there's an outrage merchant to rant about it online for an audience eager for more outrage. So it goes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,703 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    TBH anyone who reads ResetEra & takes them seriously can go shove their opinions in a fire.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Bingo.

    At a certain point, you have to ask yourself a couple of questions: Is a petition signed by 50 members out of a total registered membership of 44,298 really worth an entire article? What purpose would such an article serve? Who is it being aimed at? Are the opinions expressed by those 50 people really indicative of the entire forum? And most importantly, will we eventually get Full Body on PC?

    I mean I guess the admins and mods could ban all negative discussion about the topic and/or game. That'll work well...right? :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    If anyone missed it, Evo cut the promotional livestream for DOA6 https://nichegamer.com/2019/02/18/evo-cuts-livestream-over-dead-or-alive-6-ad-says-it-does-not-reflect-their-core-values/
    You can see the hosts' pain having to announce this from their corporate overlords.

    CKQH81c.png

    He even shakes his head in disbelief as he watches his friend rattle off the apology.

    9f322034d23547aea3c3ae0ab430b94923cbe1eefdb4847ab53ba7cb4438d0aa.jpg

    They got cut off before they could announce Mai Shiranui as a mainline DOA character now - that got leaked later... possibly ruining the hype and potential pre-orders or customers they'd hope to secure from the announcement. I haven't bought a DOA game in a long time but if 6 performs well enough and doesn't have excessive DRM I might just pick it up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    Where is all this outrage to Catherine?
    It's not even out until September.
    Outrage culture is very real but so too are people who actively seek it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    gizmo wrote: »
    Bingo.

    At a certain point, you have to ask yourself a couple of questions: Is a petition signed by 50 members out of a total registered membership of 44,298 really worth an entire article? What purpose would such an article serve? Who is it being aimed at? Are the opinions expressed by those 50 people really indicative of the entire forum? And most importantly, will we eventually get Full Body on PC?

    I mean I guess the admins and mods could ban all negative discussion about the topic and/or game. That'll work well...right? :pac:

    50 people before the mods made a decision, they're always ban happy there.

    On resetera they've 2.5k post on this aspect of the game between multiple threads. Site is a joke.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Varik wrote: »
    50 people before the mods made a decision, they're always ban happy there.

    On resetera they've 2.5k post on this aspect of the game between multiple threads. Site is a joke.
    Aye, and the mods decision was that discussion of the game wouldn't be banned nor would debate on the topic itself.

    As for the multiple threads, the second largest one is based on a poll asking users if said "events" will affect their purchase of future Atlus titles. While I can't see the results of the poll, from flicking through the thread there's a non-trivial number of people who are a firm no on the question.

    Which leads us back to the basis of my original point, why would someone care what a bunch of people on one particular forum think? I'm gona hazard a guess and say it's something along the lines of what johnny_ultimate described above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    gizmo wrote: »
    Aye, and the mods decision was that discussion of the game wouldn't be banned nor would debate on the topic itself.

    There's no debate, have a look through them your choice is the "right" side or the banned side. Their mods love to post exactly why someone is banned.

    To save spoilers, there's a lot of banned user on their threads. This one is apparently trans phobic rhetoric.

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/major-spoilers-one-of-the-endings-in-catherine-full-body-gets-extremely-transphobic-moreso-than-that-original-op-updated-feb-17.100027/page-17#post-17978313


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Varik wrote: »
    There's no debate, have a look through them your choice is the "right" side or the banned side. Their mods love to post exactly why someone is banned.

    To save spoilers, there's a lot of banned user on their threads. This one is apparently trans phobic rhetoric.

    Aye, I can read the various threads and I can see both different opinions being shared and the usual near gratuitous banning. It's pretty much par for the course for the forum though which again begs the question, why is this news?


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,856 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    gizmo wrote: »
    As for the multiple threads, the second largest one is based on a poll asking users if said "events" will affect their purchase of future Atlus titles. While I can't see the results of the poll, from flicking through the thread there's a non-trivial number of people who are a firm no on the question.

    Considering that the people that get involved in these debates have absolutely zero self control I doubt atlus are quaking in their boots considering the 'success' of videogame boycott threats.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    The Catherine ending is pretty bad in fairness. I often find trans topics an easy thing for people to jump on someone being legitmately concerned about such portrayals and being branded 'snowflake' or outraged for the sake of it etc, often due to lack of genuine understanding of it or just ignorance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    An EA Game Changer partner's relationship is on rocky ground after he left a negative review of an EA game. They claim it's completely unrelated to it being a bad review and point to disclaimer discrepancies.
    https://youtu.be/g0CxFUSuLsE
    https://www.vg247.com/2019/02/22/paid-review-anthem-youtuber/

    It doesn't really matter what way they spin it, though. You review a game negatively while part of that partnership (IE they're paying you): bad things will happen. Their actions don't match their words as they got him to remove disclosure... the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do.

    Another title becomes exclusive to Chinese-owned DRM
    https://nichegamer.com/2019/02/22/horror-adventure-close-to-the-sun-epic-games-store-exclusive/


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Not the greatest that a Chinese company owns a large share but it's still not a majority.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    An EA Game Changer partner's relationship is on rocky ground after he left a negative review of an EA game. They claim it's completely unrelated to it being a bad review and point to disclaimer discrepancies.
    https://youtu.be/g0CxFUSuLsE
    https://www.vg247.com/2019/02/22/paid-review-anthem-youtuber/

    It doesn't really matter what way they spin it, though. You review a game negatively while part of that partnership (IE they're paying you): bad things will happen. Their actions don't match their words as they got him to remove disclosure... the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do.

    Another title becomes exclusive to Chinese-owned DRM
    https://nichegamer.com/2019/02/22/horror-adventure-close-to-the-sun-epic-games-store-exclusive/

    This is a danger of poor games journalism. Something i thought you would have been more wary of.

    The Game Changer content is sponsored. EA pays Youtubers to make videos showing off the game. But it's never for reviews. They are crystal clear on that.

    This guy put Game Changers watermarks/logos in the review video which gives the impression he was paid to review the game.

    He wasn't, so they asked him to take it down, remove the GC logos and then re upload it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    This is a danger of poor games journalism. Something i thought you would have been more wary of.

    The Game Changer content is sponsored. EA pays Youtubers to make videos showing off the game. But it's never for reviews. They are crystal clear on that.

    This guy put Game Changers watermarks/logos in the review video which gives the impression he was paid to review the game.

    He wasn't, so they asked him to take it down, remove the GC logos and then re upload it.

    I've actually heard that a lot of youtubers actually do fake sponsorship to make themselves look important, and try to make themselves more sponsor-able.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭SolvableKnave


    An EA Game Changer partner's relationship is on rocky ground after he left a negative review of an EA game. They claim it's completely unrelated to it being a bad review and point to disclaimer discrepancies.
    https://youtu.be/g0CxFUSuLsE
    https://www.vg247.com/2019/02/22/paid-review-anthem-youtuber/

    It doesn't really matter what way they spin it, though. You review a game negatively while part of that partnership (IE they're paying you): bad things will happen. Their actions don't match their words as they got him to remove disclosure... the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do.
    This is a danger of poor games journalism. Something i thought you would have been more wary of.

    The Game Changer content is sponsored. EA pays Youtubers to make videos showing off the game. But it's never for reviews. They are crystal clear on that.

    This guy put Game Changers watermarks/logos in the review video which gives the impression he was paid to review the game.

    He wasn't, so they asked him to take it down, remove the GC logos and then re upload it.

    Yeah, he re-uploaded the exact same video, no changes to any of the content in the video, just removed the Game Changer watermarks, and EA have not asked him to remove it.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    People have been wondering what Microsofts renewed commitment to PC at E3 meant, and now we're starting to see the first indications of it. Recent Windows Insider builds came with "Gaming Improvements", along with a free test of State of Decay. Turns out that it's the Xbox version of the game running on PC, rather than a PC specific version like you'd get from the Microsoft store.

    See here.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,856 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer



    It's been delisted everywhere which is shot. Was going to purchase this as I heard it's good and the devs deserve the support. Such a **** storm over someone that can't take a slagging.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    It's been delisted everywhere which is shot. Was going to purchase this as I heard it's good and the devs deserve the support. Such a **** storm over someone that can't take a slagging.

    I can see it still up. Those articles stay just china.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Varik wrote: »
    I can see it still up. Those articles stay just china.
    Looks like it's been removed from Steam worldwide now with only the soundtrack remaining.

    The dev, Red Candles, have announced that they've pulled it themselves..
    Due to technical issues that cause unexpected crashes and among other reasons, we are pulling <Devotion> off from steam store to have another complete QA check. At the same time we'd like to take this opportunity to ease the heightened pressure in our community resulted from our previous Art Material Incident, our team would also review our game material once again making sure no other unintended materials was inserted in. Hopefully this would help all audience to focus on the game itself again upon its return.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Now I look again it was the Devotion Deluxe Edition bundle, which right now does only contain the soundtrack.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,856 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Annoyed i missed it. Hopefully they put it back up.

    I'd say it's because they've no publisher now since the two Chinese companies they were working with have dropped the like a hot snot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Annoyed i missed it. Hopefully they put it back up.

    I'd say it's because they've no publisher now since the two Chinese companies they were working with have dropped the like a hot snot.
    One would hope so alright. The cached Steam store page shows Red Candle as both developer and publisher so insofar as Valve are concerned, they should be able to?

    There's some wording in their follow-up statement that's interesting in this context.
    We would also like to take this opportunity to reaffirm that Devotion’s publisher Indievent and Winking Entertainment did not know about the art material beforehand and were not involved in this incident at all. Currently our partnership has terminated. Red Candle Games will take full responsibility to compensate the relevant loss based on the contract.
    For their own sake I hope they can get it back up because I can't imagine the compensation they're talking about is a trivial amount.


    In other similarly not-so-pleasant news, looks like the GoG team at CD Projekt are being hit with some layoffs.

    Facing Financial Pressures, GOG Quietly Lays Off At Least A Dozen Staff


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,856 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    gizmo wrote: »
    One would hope so alright. The cached Steam store page shows Red Candle as both developer and publisher so insofar as Valve are concerned, they should be able to?

    It will probably depend on the legal agreement with the publisher. It probably has a clause about not self publishing and other complications, Id say there are grounds for both Red candle and the publishers to say the other hasn't fulfilled the terms of contract.

    Unless this issue is sorted if red candle lose against the publisher then all self published sales could be deemed to have been lost revenue for the publisher and would need to be paid back.

    To top it off the publishers have probably broken all contact off with red candle for fear of government intervention.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    So THQ Nordic are currently running an AMA on 8chan. The same 8chan that's blacklisted from Google because of child porn.

    Not a good look.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    So THQ Nordic are currently running an AMA on 8chan. The same 8chan that's blacklisted from Google because of child porn.

    Not a good look.

    An insane decision from them, and from their reply and indeed liking of tweets, they knew what they were doing. Pretty horrific all round.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Didn’t realise Darksiders 3 sold that badly :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    They've 'apologised' now which is about as hollow as it gets when u see their liked tweets and if you were even more unfortunate to see their replies in the AMA, which are pretty sick. What the **** were they thinking!?


This discussion has been closed.
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