Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

11-06-2021 11:44am

1874 wrote: »

Embarrassed? thats on you, sounds kinda immature imo, none of the Baltic states have comparable aircraft being suggested here, and thats the level we are at, and they share land borders with Russia.

It is embarrassing though, we depend on the UK to monitor our skies. Sweden aren't in NATO but have a serious set up.

I think a few drones are a fairly weak effort.

I think the bigger issue we have is that state spending of any significance on air defence or the military doesn't get much political support due to a general lack of appetite for it amongst the public.

The irony is we are effectively being used as a stop over for the US and yet remain neutral even though its fairly obvious we support the US.

nonethepfizer · 11-06-2021 11:55am

Lorddrakul wrote: »

Can't answer that, just referencing the language of the piece, but it is a good point.

apologies, was directed at you, more so stating generally...

a country in a similar situation is Iceland...

Neutral country (I don't think they even have a defence force, just coastguard)..

They rely on a NATO rotation of air support on 3-6 month blocks, usually based out of Keflavik.

Keflavik is also a US Navy air station where P-8's are based for ASW duties and a usual stop for everything NATO.

We're not alone.

nonethepfizer · 11-06-2021 12:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It is embarrassing though, we depend on the UK to monitor our skies. Sweden aren't in NATO but have a serious set up.

I think a few drones are a fairly weak effort.

I think the bigger issue we have is that state spending of any significance on air defence or the military doesn't get much political support due to a general lack of appetite for it amongst the public.

The irony is we are effectively being used as a stop over for the US and yet remain neutral even though its fairly obvious we support the US.

Sweden have a greater active threat from Russia, as is the argument for all Baltic area nations. There is more of an overt defence justification for them as opposed to the Russians having the occasional joyride through our controlled airspace without transponders on.... but I do agree the Irish setup is pathetic at best...

The US are far more overt about their Shannon stopovers etc.... but there has been some questionable flights through SNN lately, which if you were to take their routings at face value, could be seen as transports in support of Russian military activities in Africa. They aren't Russian military aircraft so no one gives them a second look.

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 12:34pm

It is an embarrassment, it has always been an embarrassment and it will be an embarrassment for the foreseeable future.

Any sovereign Republic, even a neutral one, who cannot enforce its own borders and boundaries and exert a presence at sea and in the air within its areas of responsibility, simply isn't worthy of the name.

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 12:46pm

nonethepfizer wrote: »

apologies, was directed at you, more so stating generally...

a country in a similar situation is Iceland...

Neutral country (I don't think they even have a defence force, just coastguard)..

They rely on a NATO rotation of air support on 3-6 month blocks, usually based out of Keflavik.

Keflavik is also a US Navy air station where P-8's are based for ASW duties and a usual stop for everything NATO.

We're not alone.

Iceland is in NATO so not neutral, it is also a tiny country that has zero comparisons with us, and yes legally we are alone as we aren’t part of NATO in case you missed that.

ohnonotgmail · 11-06-2021 1:05pm

Oscar Madison wrote: »

Neutrality!!!! Has anyone ANY idea how large the British Armed Forces is?

The size of its Navy, Airforce, Armed Forces or how much money annually is

spent on defence?

We're living next door to a 'SUPER POWER' whether we like it or not

and 'OUR NEUTRALITY' will not cost a thought to those in defence of the realm

and rightly so too! If the UK decided to 'invade' us in the morning what

would or could we do about it? Would the U.S. come to our defence?

I most certainly think not!

on our own probably not a whole lot except perhaps delay it. Thankfully Article 42 would kick in.

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 1:55pm

If anything has become clear over the last while and indeed for about the last 60 years, it's that in the very, very unlikely eventuality of Ireland being subject to foreign aggression, even from Britain, that the United States would intercede on our side.

But thats by the by, we are talking here about normal peacetime security and defence.

Edgarfrndly · 11-06-2021 2:14pm

The UK is never going to invade Ireland (again). The UK despite our history would have our back in many situations. We have no direct enemies, but Russia is a threat to our airspace and infrastructure. Ireland is seen as a weak link in European defense.

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 3:49pm

I hope those of us not connected to the military or political establishment, but with some knowledge and an interest in the subject, will be prepared to come out and say precisely that, if the Commission on Defence soft soaps their findings on that in any way.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 11-06-2021 4:19pm

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-defence-pact-allowing-raf-jets-inirish-airspace-undermines-our-neutrality-says-td-berry-40526069.html?fbclid=IwAR33KNT1r3oP8N4CT7i8PsMv1D338o1d6hADFU_5aINt5DXO0C-gZTeZLXI

its gathering so much transaction that some one Twitter is tagging the air corp in Gripen photo shops with Irish air corps emblems on them.

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 4:29pm

Seen that mock up before, it looks deadly.

roadmaster · 11-06-2021 4:51pm

A fun article from last year about potential choices?

https://militarymatters.online/ireland-buying-new-jet-fighters-what-might-they-go-for/

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 5:05pm

Subcontract it out? We're already subcontracting it out!

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 11-06-2021 5:08pm

roadmaster wrote: »

A fun article from last year about potential choices?

https://militarymatters.online/ireland-buying-new-jet-fighters-what-might-they-go-for/

The Kfir is a horrendous looking aircraft and sounds like a Vulcan. Seen two of them
in Columbia years ago.

I can’t ever see them outsourcing to another company to provide state security. There is already friction over the tender for the coast guard and CHC doing that post.

Banana Republic 1 · 11-06-2021 5:15pm

NZ had a fast jet squadron once as part of NATO but they have since farmed it out to Australia as it was two expensive. they probably have those pilots seconded to Australian airforce much like you see RAF pilots flying US jets.

The half arsed way Ireland does so many things including the military is embarrassing.

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 5:23pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

NZ had a fast jet squadron once as part of NATO but they have since farmed it out to Australia as it was two expensive. they probably have those pilots seconded to Australian airforce much like you see RAF pilots flying US jets.

The half arsed way Ireland does so many things including the military is embarrassing.

Ah, no they aren’t NATO is North Atlantic, they were I think part of SEATO before that collapsed but that’s it.

Gary kk · 11-06-2021 6:25pm

I think after listening to Pat Kenny earlier that they are pushing for the FA 50. Pat named dropped it by accident as well. So they may have been talking before the show.

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 7:45pm

Gary kk wrote: »

I think after listening to Pat Kenny earlier that they are pushing for the FA 50. Pat named dropped it by accident as well. So they may have been talking before the show.

Likely to be the only user of the FA model in Western Europe... Yep that would continue the trend of the AC getting screwed.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 11-06-2021 8:19pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Likely to be the only user of the FA model in Western Europe... Yep that would continue the trend of the AC getting screwed.

Are they really going for that model? Is there anything online about it? That’s a very strange purchase it’s modern but that’s about it. From what I’m reading on it(because I’m bored in work) is that it’s affordable and fast.

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 8:22pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

NZ had a fast jet squadron once as part of NATO but they have since farmed it out to Australia as it was two expensive. they probably have those pilots seconded to Australian airforce much like you see RAF pilots flying US jets.

The half arsed way Ireland does so many things including the military is embarrassing.

The way you think New Zealand is in NATO is also pretty embarrassing.

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 8:29pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

Are they really going for that model? Is there anything online about it? That’s a very strange purchase it’s modern but that’s about it. From what I’m reading on it(because I’m bored in work) is that it’s affordable and fast.

Well Berry is talking about it, the DOD isn’t talking about anything, they have their hands full with other projects. But yeah I can see people just picking it randomly, leaving out there’s no other users anywhere close to us.

Banana Republic 1 · 11-06-2021 8:36pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The way you think New Zealand is in NATO is also pretty embarrassing.

A do one! they are in a battle group with Australia who are the largest none nato contributing force

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 11-06-2021 8:40pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Well Berry is talking about it, the DOD isn’t talking about anything, they have their hands full with other projects. But yeah I can see people just picking it randomly, leaving out there’s no other users anywhere close to us.

Yeah i thought that, there isnt any hype about it normal there is a leak of some sort, Iraq only got because Lockheed Martin pushed them to it. They are the closet user of it.

roadmaster · 11-06-2021 8:50pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Well Berry is talking about it, the DOD isn’t talking about anything, they have their hands full with other projects. But yeah I can see people just picking it randomly, leaving out there’s no other users anywhere close to us.

They probably think because Hyundai have a good dealer network here parts wont be an issue!

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 8:56pm

roadmaster wrote: »

They probably think because Hyundai have a good dealer network here parts wont be an issue!

Or haven’t even looked at how the CASAs and PC 9s go back to get work done, supporting 12-16 of them will be a nightmare, just look at the issues the Australians have had with supporting the Tiger.

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 8:57pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

A do one! they are in a battle group with Australia who are the largest none nato contributing force

What?

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 8:58pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

Yeah i thought that, there isnt any hype about it normal there is a leak of some sort, Iraq only got because Lockheed Martin pushed them to it. They are the closet user of it.

Nah, there’s no way DOD are even looking at Jets, hell they were bitching about fighting Defence systems to the 295s... Buying things that might have weapons on them... Hell no.

Larbre34 · 11-06-2021 9:13pm

Yes, I understand the fitting of GPMGs to the AW139s caused a spike in sick leave at the Did and a communal dish of Xanax to appear in the canteen.

11-06-2021 9:39pm

Gary kk wrote: »

Lol do you really think the UK would invade?

This is not about fighting the UK this is about looking after our own air space in a effective manner.

We can't even protect our economy!

My point is that there are better placed countries probably doing that already!

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 11-06-2021 11:52pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

A do one! they are in a battle group with Australia who are the largest none nato contributing force

Australia are part of the AUSCANNZUKUS with New Zealand. They collaborate with NATO but they are not nato.

sparky42 · 11-06-2021 11:59pm

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

Australia are part of the AUSCANNZUKUS with New Zealand. They collaborate with NATO but they are not nato.

Probably easier just to call them the “Five Eyes”

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 12-06-2021 12:00am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yes, I understand the fitting of GPMGs to the AW139s caused a spike in sick leave at the Did and a communal dish of Xanax to appear in the canteen.

I reckon that is compo, lads in the 90s practicing in the Glen on the artillery guns. They were told use weapons without proper ear plugs. A few hundred soldier went sick due to concussion and deafness and sued the DF. Now that I think I of it, if they aren’t willing to spend cash on something you can bulk buy from Crazy Prices I doubt they will invest in a jet. When do we start learning Russian lol.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 12-06-2021 12:46am

sparky42 wrote: »

Probably easier just to call them the “Five Eyes”

True but same thing really…just another irrelevant alliance tbh

PuddingBreath · 12-06-2021 1:26am

ljy9fn7qwhgasx wrote: »

Kinda holed your own canoe with that one.

Even so, in a country with over 3,000 homeless children one will have a difficult time persuading people to spend tens or hundreds of millions on jets to "defend our own airpsace" against something.

the homeless issue is easily fixed, if they were bothered, in my opinion. but we're the besty chaps in the EU on certain things so we'll continue on fannying around with direct provision, illegal immigration , slum landlords, no rent controls, no price controls of housing, yada yada yada. homelessness is by design. we're spending 3 - 4 billion on a childrens hospital in an idiotic place. we have 2 taoiseachs on half a million betweeen them and big fat pensions, they'd sort it if they wanted to.
we should be protecting our seas and air, from criminals basically. might be better off with some kind of high speed helicopters that troops could deploy from to say a ship importing drugs, maybe a really high speed recon plane to scout ahead too.

or as others suggest, just pay the english to do it

Larbre34 · 12-06-2021 11:26am

The fastest helicopter in the world is only 80% the speed of a PC-9M. Lets keep it realistic.

Gary kk · 14-06-2021 3:43pm

Do they have a faster model of the M346? Seems just a bit slow

sparky42 · 14-06-2021 6:14pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

I think if we get anything, like it or not the EU will help out with funding. In doing so we can rule out any hope of an aircraft not built, or part built in the EU.
Yet another reason to put the KAI FA50 out of our minds completely.
It was offered to Croatia, it failed to pass muster, they went with the Rafale instead.
Spain was in talks for 50 of the basic trainer type, but they were exchanging them for 5 Airbus A400s.
Poland selected the M346 over the T50.
There are currently just 12 FA 50 in service, 36 if you also include the Iraqi variant.

Does the EU help out for nations our size (population and economy wise)? I mean they didn’t fund the P60s for example, it’s a long time since we could argue we can’t fund purchases ourselves.

Larbre34 · 14-06-2021 7:13pm

Depends on what our fellow EU states see as a worthwhile quid pro quo.

With their NATO hats on, they may perceive plugging the air defence gap as highly desirable and then put on their EU hats to be able to provide a mechanism to help us out.

sparky42 · 14-06-2021 7:34pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

They did and they didn't. We were in the middle of a bailout when the 4 ships were purchased. All our funding was coming from the EU at that stage. We ordered 2 with an option for a third, we ended up with 4, built in what was still the EU at that point. The country was broke, but we were able to get funds for 4 ships, when the Troika controlled the state's finances?

Yeah, that’s not how it worked, for example Greece overruled the Trokia on defence spending there at the time. As long as we had a general agreement on the spending and tax increases they weren’t going to micromanage to that level.

sparky42 · 14-06-2021 7:36pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Depends on what our fellow EU states see as a worthwhile quid pro quo.

With their NATO hats on, they may perceive plugging the air defence gap as highly desirable and then put on their EU hats to be able to provide a mechanism to help us out.

I think it might be a hard steel to say the Eastern European’s that are hitting 2% or more, that the EU has to fund buying x amount of planes for a nation that could fund such purchases themselves, or have a state to state funding arrangement like Croatia….

Larbre34 · 14-06-2021 8:22pm

sparky42 wrote: »

I think it might be a hard steel to say the Eastern European’s that are hitting 2% or more, that the EU has to fund buying x amount of planes for a nation that could fund such purchases themselves, or have a state to state funding arrangement like Croatia….

Certainly it might.

However, I'm not suggesting we ask to be gifted the stuff. The European Commission has just about One Trillion Euro in stimulus capital, burning a hole in its moleskin slacks. Ireland would be starting from scratch in the air defence game, and we know we are looking at 1 to 2 Billion Euro of upfront costs. A system of cohesion funding, long term low interest loans and a load of good business for EU defence contractors in Sweden, Italy, France, Germany etc. Could be a big win all round.

sparky42 · 14-06-2021 8:29pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Certainly it might.

However, I'm not suggesting we ask to be gifted the stuff. The European Commission has just about One Trillion Euro in stimulus capital, burning a hole in its moleskin slacks. Ireland would be starting from scratch in the air defence game, and we know we are looking at 1 to 2 Billion Euro of upfront costs. A system of cohesion funding, long term low interest loans and a load of good business for EU defence contractors in Sweden, Italy, France, Germany etc. Could be a big win all round.

That fund isn't for defence spending though (which is still a bit of a hot button issue for the EU), so trying to get it would be a hard sell as well. The EDF doesn't really fit that either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Defence_Fund

I can't really see the EU going down that route to be honest.

sparky42 · 14-06-2021 9:59pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Greece is not a good example. Their populist politicians were flavour of the month at the time but struggle now to find any foreign media to answer their calls.
Our Budgets were being approved by the Troika before it went to the Dail. The delayed payment agreed by the Late Minister for Finance got it over the line when the Minister for defence of the day had no interest in pursuing it.

My point is, if it benefits the EU, they will assist us. Not in an obvious way, but things definitely go much smoother.

Why is it not a good example? In one of the rounds of bailouts the suggestion was made to cut Defence Spending including the new German Subs, the Greeks refused and made cuts elsewhere.

The Troika's position was to check spending cuts and tax raises and how they balanced the books, how that came about was up to the Government of the time. A tiny sum of some 200 million was a maths error to them in the scale of things, nor would the IMF particularly care about whether it was spent in the EU. So no the Troika had nothing to do with the decision for the P60's it was as you pointed out the Ministers of the day that pushed it.

The EU isn't going to fund us to buy equipment, it just doesn't do that, European Nations might be willing to give us favourable terms for buying their equipment but that's it.

purplepanda · 15-06-2021 7:51am

Had a listen to the Cathal Berry TD interview on Newstalk Pat Kenny Show on the 11th June. It sounds like the Korean FA-50 is a viable option, an advanced jet trainer /light combat aircraft with some interception ability & speed.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/td-raises-concerns-about-irelands-neutrality-over-post-9-11-defence-pact-1208925

https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back (11th June, Pat Kenny show 9AM, interview starts at 02.02)

Berry mentioned a cost of €20million per aircraft. compared to the current Pilatus PC-9 trainers which cost €8million. Obviously the infrastuture costs of upgrading infrastructure, equipment, radar, training more staff will add substantially to the overall cost however.

One factor it would be interesting to know does the RAF / UK government charge for it's welcome assistance & how much does it indeed cost.

It's interesting to compare Irish military defence spending with other nations of similar size & resources, but there are often various important differences such the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, getting Grippens from Sweden, Croatia obtaining Rafeles from France, however all these nations have no need for Naval vessels.

Ireland has responsibility for large EEZ teritorial waters, 10 times the size of the state so the Naval Service needs substantial funding.

Other Eastern European states, Poland & Bulgaria, do a deal with the Americans to modernise their airforces, do they get significant subsidies like countries like Egypt, Israel & others worldwide manage to obtain from the USA?

It's not just the USA subsiding these deals & their defence industry, France & Sweden would appear to be doing the same selling upgraded used military jets whilst modernising their airforces with new versions.

source · 15-06-2021 8:39am

purplepanda wrote: »

Berry mentioned a cost of €20million per aircraft. compared to the current Pilatus PC-9 trainers which cost €8million. Obviously the infrastuture costs of upgrading infrastructure, equipment, radar, training more staff will add substantially to the overall cost however.

I've just had a listen and no mention of the FA50 (Pat suggested that the RAF were using F50s or something when they come over) , also CB said that running the PC9M currently costs the state €8m annually and upgrading to a supersonic jet trainer would likely cost the state €20m annually. No discussion was had about the capital cost of procuring the aircraft.

grassylawn · 15-06-2021 8:45am

purplepanda wrote: »

Had a listen to the Cathal Berry TD interview on Newstalk Pat Kenny Show on the 11th June. It sounds like the Korean FA-50 is a viable option, an advanced jet trainer /light combat aircraft with some interception ability & speed.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/td-raises-concerns-about-irelands-neutrality-over-post-9-11-defence-pact-1208925

https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back (11th June, Pat Kenny show 9AM, interview starts at 02.02)

Berry mentioned a cost of €20million per aircraft. compared to the current Pilatus PC-9 trainers which cost €8million. Obviously the infrastuture costs of upgrading infrastructure, equipment, radar, training more staff will add substantially to the overall cost however.

One factor it would be interesting to know does the RAF / UK government charge for it's welcome assistance & how much does it indeed cost.

It's interesting to compare Irish military defence spending with other nations of similar size & resources, but there are often various important differences such the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, getting Grippens from Sweden, Croatia obtaining Rafeles from France, however all these nations have no need for Naval vessels.

Ireland has responsibility for large EEZ teritorial waters, 10 times the size of the state so the Naval Service needs substantial funding.

Other Eastern European states, Poland & Bulgaria, do a deal with the Americans to modernise their airforces, do they get significant subsidies like countries like Egypt, Israel & others worldwide manage to obtain from the USA?

It's not just the USA subsiding these deals & their defence industry, France & Sweden would appear to be doing the same selling upgraded used military jets whilst modernising their airforces with new versions.

I doubt the RAF charge us anything. It's in the UK's interest to keep hostile actors off their doorstep.

Flinty997 · 15-06-2021 9:31am

purplepanda wrote: »

..., getting Grippens from Sweden, Croatia obtaining Rafeles from France, however all these nations have no need for Naval vessels.
.....

France and Sweden have substantial navies.

Flinty997 · 15-06-2021 9:36am

purplepanda wrote: »

.....

Other Eastern European states, Poland & Bulgaria, do a deal with the Americans to modernise their airforces, do they get significant subsidies like countries like Egypt, Israel & others worldwide manage to obtain from the USA?

It's not just the USA subsiding these deals & their defence industry, France & Sweden would appear to be doing the same selling upgraded used military jets whilst modernising their airforces with new versions.

That's effectively the Global arms trade. Selling and buying new and used weapons and technology. Every country does it. Read a magazine like air forced monthly and you'll get a taste for what deals are being done and movement of aircraft and weapons systems around the world. Or websites like https://alert5.com/

nonethepfizer · 15-06-2021 9:36am

grassylawn wrote: »

I doubt the RAF charge us anything. It's in the UK's interest to keep hostile actors off their doorstep.

I vaguely remember that ATC fees to the RAF are also waived for such ops

ohnonotgmail · 15-06-2021 9:38am

Flinty997 wrote: »

France and Sweden have substantial navies.

that was referring to the countries in bold. Hungary though does have a river based navy.

the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, getting Grippens from Sweden, Croatia obtaining Rafeles from France, however all these nations have no need for Naval vessels.

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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