Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP

lawrencesummers · 23-07-2020 2:06pm

ErnestBorgnine wrote: »

Sean Kelly was salt of the earth type thou, rugby is full of ****.

That has to count for something.

Hes not dead you know.

ErnestBorgnine · 23-07-2020 2:12pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Hes not dead you know.

Oh aye yeah. Don't know why i said "was", probably because i've not heard much from him since he retired.

If only he hadn't chosen the wrong gear in the WC in '89!

lawrencesummers · 23-07-2020 2:13pm

wexandproud wrote: »

their have been and still are world class cyclists from all over the world .All you have to do is look at the results of the races in any year . Even in Kelly's era the eastern block countries all the european countries were competing as were Australians , americans north and south . Indeed some of the best ''grand tour'' rider were columbians , tiny little lads but boy could they go uphill fast. If you look at kelly's last world championship medal an american and russian beat him . National teams only compete in a few races , professional teams made up from riders from all over the world compete in the vast majority of races . before you turn pro you have to have won top level races and be among the best of the best in your country. To win a race you are competing against up to 200 of the best in the world and sometimes in conditions most other competitions would be called off . Cold, rain , snow , heat races are only very rarely stopped usually because roads are blocked/flooded and impassible . Top level professional races also take place all over the world and professionals can race for up to 10 months of the year.
Just out of interest what is the 1 country you would class as having top level team

as you have edited your post . National teams have very little to do with the professional side of the sport which is where the vast majority of the sport takes place and there is some who would say that in the olympics and world championships where riders compete on national teams that their is often conflict as riders are racing against people who would normally be team mates in the pro teams. It would be hard to race against people who are your team mates on your professional team for the vast vast majority of the season and where you make your living

Cycling is not any more popular at the highest level than Rugby, thats the original point. Of the last TDF only 30 countries had professional riders make the start line. There were 20 teams at the last Rugby world cup, and 13 that didnt qualify.

So if you want rule out one sportsman because of the popularity of the sport then rule out all sports that are not as big.

py2006 · 23-07-2020 2:13pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Your having a laugh, the other 3 are only legends by Irish Standards. Keane is a legend by world standards, he's one of the best players to ever play in English football.

Brady is still highly regarded in Italy. Giles is highly regarded in the UK as is McGrath.

Keane won more titles and slapped respect into his more skillful team mates and influenced matches. He is highly regarded world wide.

wexandproud · 23-07-2020 2:13pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Hes not dead you know.

long live the ''king '' kelly
He's still as down to earth as ever can talk about gaa and his donkeys as easy as cycling and never i won this or that race . Getting him to talk about his success is like pulling teeth . Saw him on a charity event a few years back , a crowd of us in a hall having coffee he was having a bit of crack with a visually impaired cyclist who he seemingly knew . anybody who was within earshot was in knots laughing with the two of them taking the pi.. out of each other .

lawrencesummers · 23-07-2020 2:14pm

ErnestBorgnine wrote: »

Oh aye yeah. Don't know why i said "was", probably because i've not heard much from him since he retired.

If only he hadn't chosen the wrong gear in the WC in '89!

Ive been fortunate enough to send time in his company in the last few years, and hes one funny man. Dead pan droll funny - the best type

Mad_maxx · 23-07-2020 2:16pm

John Giles was a sublime passer of the ball with a superb first touch, a lot like cesc fabregas in style

Keane was a classic midfield General, a great leader of men through sheer brute force and will,there was more drive in him than total football

py2006 · 23-07-2020 2:16pm

Mister Vain wrote: »

I think McGregor would need to fight for a few more years before he could be considered the greatest. He achieved a lot in a short period of time though.

Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. Without the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

lawrencesummers · 23-07-2020 2:19pm

py2006 wrote: »

Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. With the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

Hes had more retirements that victories in the last few years alright

py2006 · 23-07-2020 2:19pm

Homelander wrote: »

When he's literally one of the most famous athletes in the world.

Famous but not the best sports person.

Kilboor · 23-07-2020 2:25pm

py2006 wrote: »

Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. Without the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

First UFC two weight champion and he's fought and beat some of the best. Also extremely entertaining to watch.

You have to remember people gave him little chance vs Aldo (and we know what happened) and little chance vs Diaz especially in the rematch.

wexandproud · 23-07-2020 2:26pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Cycling is not any more popular at the highest level than Rugby, thats the original point. Of the last TDF only 30 countries had professional riders make the start line. There were 20 teams at the last Rugby world cup, and 13 that didnt qualify.

So if you want rule out one sportsman because of the popularity of the sport then rule out all sports that are not as big.

so you change the discussion from 13 national teams too only professional from 30 countries . The TDF IS a race for only the top teams with a few wild card entries there would be plenty of teams with plenty of nationalities represented that dont qualify for the race .

begbysback · 23-07-2020 2:32pm

Kilboor wrote: »

First UFC two weight champion and he's fought and beat some of the best. Also extremely entertaining to watch.

You have to remember people gave him little chance vs Aldo (and we know what happened) and little chance vs Diaz especially in the rematch.

He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.

Kilboor · 23-07-2020 2:42pm

begbysback wrote: »

He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.

Who knows but he certainly didn't spoof his way into the limelight. He fought his way.

lawrencesummers · 23-07-2020 2:43pm

wexandproud wrote: »

so you change the discussion from 13 national teams too only professional from 30 countries . The TDF IS a race for only the top teams with a few wild card entries there would be plenty of teams with plenty of nationalities represented that dont qualify for the race .

Only 13 countries had teams in the last TDF.
There isnt a discussion, Cycling and Rugby are not far apart in terms of participation at the highest level. If you want to exclude BOD because rugby isnt massive worldwide then exclude cycling also.

If you want to look at this...
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20160815-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-reaches-125-000-members-milestone-0#:~:text=Clubs%20are%20booming%20%2D%20British%20Cycling,29.500%20to%20more%20than%2062%2C000.

and this

https://www.ruck.co.uk/top-20-country-registered-rugby-players-world/5/

Then Rugby is far more popular in many places, the UK as above, but in france there are 110k cyclists and 540k rugby players.

lawrencesummers · 23-07-2020 2:45pm

begbysback wrote: »

He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.

I think Eric knocked down more opponents with his leg kicks.

afro man · 23-07-2020 2:45pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Yeah because Roy threw the rattler out of the pram

so what your saying then is that roy keane did not walk out on Ireland

Homelander · 23-07-2020 2:52pm

py2006 wrote: »

Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. Without the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

He would be successful just not a mega-millionaire....just a normal millionaire.

I don't know where you got the "lost as much as he won" bit, he's 22-4 in pro-MMA and 10-2 in the UFC.

An exceptionally good record. When he won the first belt, it was a 7 fight win streak in the UFC and he KO'd the champ, who himself hadn't lost a fight or been KO'd in 10 years.

So, a fairly remarkable and elite fighter that was always destined to succeed within the sport, loud mouth or not.

Not gonna be considered among the greatest ever, but will certainly be one of the most remembered, bit like The Rock or Hulk Hogan with the WWF.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 2:54pm

ErnestBorgnine wrote: »

Sean Kelly was salt of the earth type thou, rugby is full of ****.

That has to count for something.

Salt of the earth is great and all... but it's not greatness!

Zero tour de france wins. He had the potential, but never got the job done.

Roche at least got one win. He more than likely doped, but then so did everyone else. (Probably including Kelly too, as one of his teammates was popped for something early on and banned)

But I agree with others, cycling is filthy as fcuk... there is no integrity in that sport. So you cannot pick a cyclist as our greatest ever! Not if you like any degree of respectability in your sports stars!

Choochtown · 23-07-2020 3:01pm

Unfortunately to qualify as being the "best Irish Sports person ever" you must have some sort of loyalty to Ireland. Keane's walkout before the World Cup in 2002 is well documented but as well as that, his time as the National team's assistant manager showed that money was far more important to Roy than doing his job to the best of his ability.

Whilst working as Martin O'Neill's assistant Roy,

1. Took a side job as Aston Villa's assistant manager (extra cash for Roy, less time opportunity to view games involving Irish players, conflict of interests regarding Villa's Irish players)

2. Timed the release of his book to just before a crucial Euro championship qualifier to gain maximum exposure for it (extra cash for Roy, less time with the team due to media promotions and interviews for his book, distraction from a very important match)

and

3. Abandoned the squad the day before a match to fly out to Lisbon and take ITV money as a pundit for the Champions League final (extra cash for Roy, less time preparing the team and clear message sent to the team regarding priorities)

ErnestBorgnine · 23-07-2020 3:02pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Salt of the earth is great and all... but it's not greatness!

Zero tour de france wins. He had the potential, but never got the job done.

Roche at least got one win. He more than likely doped, but then so did everyone else. (Probably including Kelly too, as one of his teammates was popped for something early on and banned)

But I agree with others, cycling is filthy as fcuk... there is no integrity in that sport. So you cannot pick a cyclist as our greatest ever! Not if you like any degree of respectability in your sports stars!

Agreed. I'd argue rugby, boxing, athletics & even soccer are filthy also.

bertiebomber · 23-07-2020 3:07pm

Tony McCoy

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 3:11pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

John Giles was a sublime passer of the ball with a superb first touch, a lot like cesc fabregas in style

Keane was a classic midfield General, a great leader of men through sheer brute force and will,there was more drive in him than total football

It kind of annoys when Keane gets typecast as nothing more than a midfield general... (I know you didn't say that, but many people do)

He was a very underrated passer of the ball. Wayne Rooney said he was the best passer he played with, despite playing with players like Scholes.

He may not have had the same technique as someone like a paul scholes, but his passing was crisp and accurate and he very rarely gave the ball away. And wasn't one of these sideways and backward merchants either... he looked to get the ball into the strikers feet early and then support them with lung-busting runs into the box!

In his early days he was an offensive player, later on he became one of the best defensive holding midfielders. You could ask him to do anything in midfield. He was more well rounded than players like Scholes or Fabregas.

I still think he should have won more Champions Leagues though! :pac:

wexandproud · 23-07-2020 3:21pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Salt of the earth is great and all... but it's not greatness!

Zero tour de france wins. He had the potential, but never got the job done.

Roche at least got one win. He more than likely doped, but then so did everyone else. (Probably including Kelly too, as one of his teammates was popped for something early on and banned)

But I agree with others, cycling is filthy as fcuk... there is no integrity in that sport. So you cannot pick a cyclist as our greatest ever! Not if you like any degree of respectability in your sports stars!

cycling is a lot more than the TDF . its just that's the one that is highlighted . Kellys tour of spain win was every bit as hard earned

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 3:24pm

wexandproud wrote: »

cycling is a lot more than the TDF . its just that's the one that is highlighted . Kellys tour of spain win was every bit as hard earned

Tour de France is far more important than the Tour of Spain.

Pauliedragon · 23-07-2020 3:34pm

begbysback wrote: »

He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.

Eric Cantona was very good at kicking people in the head especially at Selhurst park. Maybe MMA was his calling.

jmayo · 23-07-2020 3:43pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The complete lack of credibility that cycling has (and rightly so) will always preclude somebody from getting the title of greatness and if its ok to rule out a rugby player because Rugby isnt a global sport, then its equally ok to rule out a cyclist. Only 13 countries have a top level cycling team in 2020.

Ah FFS.
Yes cycling has been plagued with drugs scandals, but then again what hasn't had drugs involement.

Oh wait soccer.
But when you look closer you find that there has been a lot drugs, for instance Seria A.
And I aint talking about Diego and snow.

And Spanish authorities squashed investigation into the doping ring that Armstrong and the boys were using even though cyclists accounted for only something like 60% of the dopers.
Maybe if they looked too hard the Spanish giants and proponents of the beautiful game might be found out. :rolleyes:

And if bring in doping you have discount athletics as well.
Sure weren't top tennis players at it.

And if we are going to bring in the cr** about only counting sports that are played running around and in every country in the world you totally discount all the achievements of some our most fantastic sports people.

It looks like you are setting it up that only a soccer player can be deemed our greatest sports person. :rolleyes:

ErnestBorgnine wrote: »

Oh aye yeah. Don't know why i said "was", probably because i've not heard much from him since he retired.

If only he hadn't chosen the wrong gear in the WC in '89!

You will hear his dulcet tones on Eurosport.

a very cool kid wrote: »

Could you imagine the relief when it was burst/lanced that night??

He was out of the tour from what I remember so probably in very bad mood.

And now to really stir the pot and get a certain type of poster in a latter.

Eoin Morgan.

:D

Captain of world cup winning side.
Plays in a sport played by millions and enjoyed by over a billion people worldwide.

Tell me how · 23-07-2020 3:43pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Tour de France is far more important than the Tour of Spain.

Cycling has 3 Grand Tours, France, Spain Italy (Le Tour, Vuelta, Giro).

TdF is like Premiership title with the Vuelta and Giro probably being comparable to cup competitions (say Giro FA Cup and Vuelta League Cup)

But, many cyclists and cycling fans view the Spring Classics and even World Championships as massive in their own right. Some cyclists even focus primarily on the classics and while they might ride a Grand Tour, they do so really only focusing on maybe a stage win or to support their main rider or maybe a jersey classification more so than going for outright win.

One of the highest earning riders a few years ago was Philippe Gilbert and his star power was mostly because of his prowess in the classics and he never finished higher than 32nd in a GT.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 3:56pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Cycling has 3 Grand Tours, France, Spain Italy (Le Tour, Vuelta, Giro).

TdF is like Premiership title with the Vuelta and Giro probably being comparable to cup competitions (say Giro FA Cup and Vuelta League Cup)

But, many cyclists and cycling fans view the Spring Classics and even World Championships as massive in their own right. Some cyclists even focus primarily on the classics and while they might ride a Grand Tour, they do so really only focusing on maybe a stage win or to support their main rider or maybe a jersey classification more so than going for outright win.

One of the highest earning riders a few years ago was Philippe Gilbert and his star power was mostly because of his prowess in the classics and he never finished higher than 32nd in a GT.

That's nice...

But the Tour de France is still by far the most important and prestigious.

And Kelly badly wanted a win in it, and was very disappointed at the end of his career that he never achieved it. And he had the talent to do it too.

It's a bit like Roy Keane never playing in a Champions League final - when someone like Maldini has played in 6... Everyone knows it's significance if you know the sport in question.

Everyone who knows something about cycling, knows the significance of winning the Tour de France. (and the significance of failing to win it)

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 4:07pm

jmayo wrote: »

And now to really stir the pot and get a certain type of poster in a latter.

Eoin Morgan. :D

Captain of world cup winning side.
Plays in a sport played by millions and enjoyed by over a billion people worldwide.

One of the great Anglo-Irishmen of all time, surely??

Do many of these billion fans reside in one country by any chance?

Tell me how · 23-07-2020 4:28pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Everyone who knows something about cycling, knows the significance of winning the Tour de France. (and the significance of failing to win it)

That is patently wrong. People who focus on TdF yellow jersey victories don't understand the full scope or popularity of the sport or what motivates those who participate.

Your argument could be used (which it is by many) to suggest that Messi isn't the greatest player to play football because he hasn't won the WC.

Not a valid argument in my view.

partyguinness · 23-07-2020 4:37pm

John Treacy's marathon silver medal in '84 was an unbelievable achievement.

Ronnie Delaney won gold in '56 when the 1500 was the marque track event long before the 100m.

Sonia O'Sullivan dominated women's middle distance for most of the 90s.

crossman47 · 23-07-2020 4:42pm

partyguinness wrote: »

John Treacy's marathon silver medal in '84 was an unbelievable achievement.

Ronnie Delaney won gold in '56 when the 1500 was the marque track event long before the 100m.

Sonia O'Sullivan dominated women's middle distance for most of the 90s.

For me, Sonia is our greatest. She dominated womens middle distance and was robbed of more world championship gold by the doped Chinese.

partyguinness · 23-07-2020 4:47pm

crossman47 wrote: »

For me, Sonia is our greatest. She dominated womens middle distance and was robbed of more world championship gold by the doped Chinese.

Indeed.

Inexperience caught her in 1992
1993 WC completely cheated out of it- even the Chinese runners made a voluntary confession year later but World Athletics just brushed it under carpet
1996- basically sick and went tits up..
2000- silver medal even if she was a little past her best but even then the Romanian gold medalist was caught doping later on.

partyguinness · 23-07-2020 4:52pm

On the Roy Keane Saipan debate. McCarthy amd Keane both should have handled it better.

1. Did Keane need to give an interview to the IT?
2. McCarthy went off and held a team meeting and decided to round on Keane in front of the squad- that was mistake numero uno.

McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. McCarthy was the manager- his job was to manage. That was not good management.

partyguinness · 23-07-2020 5:02pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Your having a laugh, the other 3 are only legends by Irish Standards. Keane is a legend by world standards, he's one of the best players to ever play in English football.

You are having a laugh and showin up your own age:

Giles
The lynchpin of the great Leeds team from 65 to 75 which was one of the best teams in world football and the defo the best team in England and should have won way more.

Brady
Already regarded as probably the most gifted player in English football in the late 1970s, he was signed by Juventus and was one of the more successful foreign players in Serie A during the 80s. Serie A in the 80s was where all the superstars played. Brady more than held his own. Only Platini (3 time Ballon d'Or) was deemed good enough to replace him at Juventus

McGrath

A ****ing legend. A class act.

The major difference between Keane and the rest was exposure.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 5:13pm

Tell me how wrote: »

That is patently wrong. People who focus on TdF yellow jersey victories don't understand the full scope or popularity of the sport or what motivates those who participate.

Your argument could be used (which it is by many) to suggest that Messi isn't the greatest player to play football because he hasn't won the WC.

Not a valid argument in my view.

You're entitled to your view... but your view is dead wrong!

The Tour de France is the most important race - by a considerable margin!

The other tours don't even come close.

But who cares anyway? It's only cycling... it's a fringe sport full of drugged up cheaters!

And Lance Armstrong was the greatest of them all... in a sport full of cheaters, he was the best of the lot. Absolutely scandalous the way he was used as a scapegoat! Bunch of hypocrites... throwing your best guy under the bus like that! Says all you want to know about the character of many in the cycling fraternity!

crossman47 wrote: »

For me, Sonia is our greatest. She dominated womens middle distance and was robbed of more world championship gold by the doped Chinese.

You don't dominate middle distance running unless you show up in the olympics. Sonia flopped in the olympics!

partyguinness wrote: »

Indeed.

Inexperience caught her in 1992
1993 WC completely cheated out of it- even the Chinese runners made a voluntary confession year later but World Athletics just brushed it under carpet
1996- basically sick and went tits up..
2000- silver medal even if she was a little past her best but even then the Romanian gold medalist was caught doping later on.

1996 - Bottled it just like many others - "stomach problems" aka couldn't handle the pressure!

2000 - She wasn't passed her best - she was actually in her prime for those olympics - or should have been at 30 years old. But she took a year off before the olympics to have a baby... so while her rivals were training their butts off, she had her feet up for 9 months being pregnant. Not very clever!

Wombatman · 23-07-2020 5:15pm

Only one winner. Tell the rest to come back when they have their own action figure.

Truthvader · 23-07-2020 5:18pm

partyguinness wrote: »

On the Roy Keane Saipan debate. McCarthy amd Keane both should have handled it better.

1. Did Keane need to give an interview to the IT?
2. McCarthy went off and held a team meeting and decided to round on Keane in front of the squad- that was mistake numero uno.

McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. McCarthy was the manager- his job was to manage. That was not good management.

Why? because Lord Keane had an entitlement to special private attention? He was meant to be in a team - though he never understood that.

Me me me all the way. Mick McCarthy has more class and decency in his little finger than Keane. Plus he gave 100% as a player every time. When the time came Roy gave 0%. Walked his dog.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 5:20pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Why? because Lord Keane had an entitlement to special private attention? He was meant to be in a team - though he never understood that.

Me me me all the way. Mick McCarthy has more class and decency in his little finger than Keane. Plus he gave 100% as a player every time. When the time came Roy gave 0%. Walked his dog.

In fairness, it does kind of prove he does have loyalty though!

... to his dog! :pac:

Mad_maxx · 23-07-2020 5:25pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

It kind of annoys when Keane gets typecast as nothing more than a midfield general... (I know you didn't say that, but many people do)

He was a very underrated passer of the ball. Wayne Rooney said he was the best passer he played with, despite playing with players like Scholes.

He may not have had the same technique as someone like a paul scholes, but his passing was crisp and accurate and he very rarely gave the ball away. And wasn't one of these sideways and backward merchants either... he looked to get the ball into the strikers feet early and then support them with lung-busting runs into the box!

In his early days he was an offensive player, later on he became one of the best defensive holding midfielders. You could ask him to do anything in midfield. He was more well rounded than players like Scholes or Fabregas.

I still think he should have won more Champions Leagues though! :pac:

I know he could pass but he wasn't pirlo

Keane wasn't someone with finesse, he was a brute who could play a bit

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 5:41pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I know he could pass but he wasn't pirlo

Keane wasn't someone with finesse, he was a brute who could play a bit

Or you could say, Pirlo was no Roy Keane!

Personally I thought Keane controlled games. And not just through tackles or barking orders... he controlled the tempo of games with his passing.

Imagine if you had two Pirlo's in your midfield... but no Gattuso. You'd be torn apart against certain teams. Now imagine having two Roy Keane's in your midfield. Case closed!

jmayo · 23-07-2020 5:44pm

partyguinness wrote: »

On the Roy Keane Saipan debate. McCarthy amd Keane both should have handled it better.

1. Did Keane need to give an interview to the IT?
2. McCarthy went off and held a team meeting and decided to round on Keane in front of the squad- that was mistake numero uno.

McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. McCarthy was the manager- his job was to manage. That was not good management.

Keane is the type of guy who could go into a lift on his own and still have a fight.

Actually Mick should have adopted old style tactics and taken him around back and beat the shyte out of him.
Keane would have understood and probably respected that.

Anyway for anyone that talks about his tough man persona on the pitch, please look up Giles.
He was considered one of the toughest and dirtiest when the game was full of them.
He would scare the shyte out of likes of Keane and the other so called hard man of the 80s, Jones.

And Giles was doing rabonas when kicking the ball was like kicking a bowling ball and few outside the Brazilians and Argies were doing it.

tritriagain · 23-07-2020 5:47pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What a stupid argument. How many at a soccer world cup can realistically win it? one of 3? one of 4?

Hardly a stupid argument .the soccer world cup has been won by 5 different teams the last 5 times. You mightn't agree with me but that doesn't make it stupid.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 5:51pm

jmayo wrote: »

Keane is the type of guy who could go into a lift on his own and still have a fight.

Actually Mick should have adopted old style tactics and taken him around back and beat the shyte out of him.
Keane would have understood and probably respected that.

Anyway for anyone that talks about his tough man persona on the pitch, please look up Giles.
He was considered one of the toughest and dirtiest when the game was full of them.
He would scare the shyte out of likes of Keane and the other so called hard man of the 80s, Jones.

And Giles was doing rabonas when kicking the ball was like kicking a bowling ball and few outside the Brazilians and Argies were doing it.

His Leeds team underachieved. They should have won much more than they did... Giles needs to shoulder some of the blame for that.

I don't really care who was harder - irrelevant really. What matters is their winning mentality and who was more hungry to win. I think Keane takes that one from Giles - but not by much.

Keane's workrate could have gotten the better of almost anyone - he basically outworked Zidane and Davids in that famous Semi final against Juventus. Despite both those players being technically a bit better. And he did it with Nicky Butt playing alongside him - which many people forget.

jmayo · 23-07-2020 5:55pm

tritriagain wrote: »

Hardly a stupid argument .the soccer world cup has been won by 5 different teams the last 5 times. You mightn't agree with me but that doesn't make it stupid.

Each of those has won it before.
The only new team to get to a final in last 20 years has been Croatia.
France got to final for first time in 98 and Argentina got to first final in 78.
But realistically there are only about 5/6 teams that can win it.
Uruguay will probably never win it again.
Hopefully England never do it and the Dutch have failed three times already.

jmayo · 23-07-2020 6:06pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

His Leeds team underachieved. They should have won much more than they did... Giles needs to shoulder some of the blame for that.

I don't really care who was harder - irrelevant really. What matters is their winning mentality and who was more hungry to win. I think Keane takes that one from Giles - but not by much.

Keane's workrate could have gotten the better of almost anyone - he basically outworked Zidane and Davids in that famous Semi final against Juventus. Despite both those players being technically a bit better. And he did it with Nicky Butt playing alongside him - which many people forget.

Yeah yeah yeah.
We get it, Keane was a better player because he won more. :rolleyes:

Seriously did you just say that Davids and ZIDANE were TECHNICALLY A BIT BETTER than Keane? :eek:

Are you related to him or something?

Giles was part of a team robbed in a European cup final in 1975 where they had two stone wall penalties and a goal ruled out.

Those were the days when all types of shyte went on.
Just like Brady and a very good Irish team didn't get to a WC finals because of dodgy reffing.

BTW the Leeds fans did get up to a fair amount of rioting in Paris as revenge.

tritriagain · 23-07-2020 6:21pm

jmayo wrote: »

Each of those has won it before.
The only new team to get to a final in last 20 years has been Croatia.
France got to final for first time in 98 and Argentina got to first final in 78.
But realistically there are only about 5/6 teams that can win it.
Uruguay will probably never win it again.
Hopefully England never do it and the Dutch have failed three times already.

Im not arguing that soccer is more competitive than rugby. I much prefer rugby. However all the rugby wc winners have been the tri nation teams bar once when england won.

Dank Janniels · 23-07-2020 6:24pm

Declan Moffatt

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 23-07-2020 6:28pm

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah yeah yeah.
We get it, Keane was a better player because he won more. :rolleyes:

Seriously did you just say that Davids and ZIDANE were TECHNICALLY A BIT BETTER than Keane? :eek:

Are you related to him or something?

Giles was part of a team robbed in a European cup final in 1975 where they had two stone wall penalties and a goal ruled out.

Those were the days when all types of shyte went on.
Just like Brady and a very good Irish team didn't get to a WC finals because of dodgy reffing.

BTW the Leeds fans did get up to a fair amount of rioting in Paris as revenge.

He was better than Giles, because he was hungrier to win more... not necessarily because he won more. His mentality was stronger than Giles.

You can say what you like about Leeds being robbed... but that's only one season. Why did they not get back to any more finals? That Bayern team won 3 in a row...

Giles won 2 league titles. He definitely should have won much more than that, and won more in Europe too! (He admits this himself btw - not bad luck underachievement)

And yes, Davids and Zidane had more technical skill than Keane... but it didn't matter, because Keane could outwork you if you had a bit more skill. Which is something I always liked about him. If you can get the better of Zidane by outworking him... then you are a serious talent. Because Zidane was a genius!

I've also never seen any other player take the ball off Zidane as much as Keane did. Man Utd played Juventus on many occasions in the 90's... Keane always seemed to be able to get the ball off him. Zidane was one of the most difficult players to dispossess, the ball was practically glued to his feet with such great technique. That says a lot about Keane's ability at his best.

Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP