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[Article] Eircom to cut off Music File Sharers ..

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    #332
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    aidanodr wrote: »
    Hi Guys,



    RTÉ Business: Internet: Eircom settles with music firms

    Got onto /. too:

    http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/29/1249252


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    #333
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    watty wrote: »
    You don't need to worry at all unless you get a warning.

    There is no fine. Just disconnection if your IP keeps getting reported and you ignore eircom's warning.

    why are you correcting me like i said that. stop repeating yourself like your the authority on this earth.,


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    #334
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    bealtine wrote: »
    Got onto /. too:

    http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/29/1249252

    A totally misleading article.
    eircom won't be installing anything. It's up to The Irish branches of the record companies (EMI Records Ltd, Sony BMG Music Entertainment Ltd, Universal Music Ltd and Warner Music Ltd.) rights holders to inform eircom of IP used and date/time.


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    #335
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    Also, the chances of getting caught are slim anyway.
    There are millions of music torrents in the world, the antip2p's don't have that much resources, do they?


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    #336
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    watty wrote: »
    A totally misleading article.
    About standard for slashdot these days.


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    #337
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    PeerGuardian etc. will not work as if you start a torrent in uTorrent and click on the peers tab, right click and say Copy Peer List, you have the full list!


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    #338
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    barnicles wrote: »
    Also, the chances of getting caught are slim anyway.
    There are millions of music torrents in the world, the antip2p's don't have that much resources, do they?
    See as this agreement is between Irish subsidiaries of the labels and an Irish ISP I would say it's fairly unlikely they'll be devoting resources to chasing IPs from anywhere else.

    Apparently the contractors who do this sort of work don't automate it - its incredibly repetitive and involves people sitting at desks connecting to trackers all day and noting down the IPs of the various peers/seeds...depending on the technology sometimes they actually download a portion of file to verify that it is what it is supposed to be, but often they don't bother with that bit.


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    #339
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    But maybe EMI, lets say, might have 200000 torrents containing their music, and they hire BayTSP to look for Eircom IPs. How long will it take to scan that many and you might even miss the Eircom peers?


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    #340
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    barnicles wrote: »
    But maybe EMI, lets say, might have 200000 torrents containing their music, and they hire BayTSP to look for Eircom IPs. How long will it take to scan that many and you might even miss the Eircom peers?
    Start with the most popular ones - eg recent releases - and work from there I'd say....be surprised what 10 people running a few VMs each can accomplish in a day. All they need is to filter the Irish IPs - copy the list, filter for Irish blocks, then do group lookups on those to identify Eircom's...wouldn't actually take that long to identify for a particular torrent. And maybe they now have managed to automate it to some extent...wouldn't be too hard to do with one of the open source clients.


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    #341
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    Yeah but not every user will be caught though.


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    #342
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    barnicles wrote: »
    Yeah but not every user will be caught though.
    Of course not.


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    #343
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    So this plan is not 100% foolproof. One person who downloads 1 track a month may be disconnected but serial downloaders might escape.


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    #344
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    barnicles wrote: »
    So this plan is not 100% foolproof. One person who downloads 1 track a month may be disconnected but serial downloaders might escape.

    The point of this whole thing is not to catch 100% of illegal downloaders, the point is to scare the average joe into stopping.

    It will work on the average joe and it won't cost much to do it,


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    #345
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    In this month's Mix Magazine, a US Recording Trade Magazine, states that the 'Estimated value of unlicensed music trafficked on P2P networks in 2007, $69 BILLION'

    Sixty Nine Billion Dollars !

    Downloading Unlicensed Music is NOT a victimless crime


    http://mixonline.com/


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    #346
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    In this month's Mix Magazine, a US Recording Trade Magazine, states that the 'Estimated value of unlicensed music trafficked on P2P networks in 2007, $69 BILLION'

    Sixty Nine Billion Dollars !

    I very much doubt people would spend money like they would download.
    It's high alright ,but no one really nows what money is lost and why. If there wasn't the p2p ,they would blame the recession.


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    #347
    AntiRip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭AntiRip


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Seriously lads you need to stop being incredibly thick admitting to downloading music and breaking the law.

    If the music is copyright and you don't have permission to download it then you are breaking the law, it does not matter if its top 10 stuff or not



    No the biggest reason is for faster internet connection and the ability to do stuff faster and play games and do business, just because you may have bought it for download warez doesn't mean the majority have

    Sorry Cabaal, but you are not entirely right here. Most people if not all people aren't saints like yourself. We're all human, limewire etc. are not illegal programs. My 7 year old niece heard of it at school and downloaded it herself and just typed in what she wanted. Apple are making iPods with 160gb hard drives or more. So they expect her to spend e20,000 to fill it. There is something seriously wrong with the whole system here and punishing people like this is only going to make it worse.

    Now, a member asked earlier on if this is only music or all copyright? Because this is setting a very dangerous precidance down the line for all of us. Will they start disrupting video streaming next in case of copyright?

    I think people should relax because this will be a hot topic at the start but it will fizzle out because it will not work period. They will have to literally shut down the web to stop it.


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    #348
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I use to have a cap of 50GB with eircom every month.
    Last month I used about 6GB of it on three machines ,thats 6GB on a 6mb line.
    I moved to ntl for the better ping for gaming.


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    #349
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    AntiRip wrote: »
    They will have to literally shut down the web to stop it.

    I think 5 years. or more, ago this couldn't be imagined.

    I think when the net is getting more 'controlled' by a few big players (Google, Apple with iTunes etc.) then the likelihood of this problem being addressed forcefully is increased many times.

    It's Apple I'd be watching - 'If we can make $X-million by supplying it we could make 100 by $X-million by being the only ones to supply it' they could well be thinking.


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    #350
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    AntiRip wrote: »
    Sorry Cabaal, but you are not entirely right here. Most people if not all people aren't saints like yourself. We're all human, limewire etc. are not illegal programs. My 7 year old niece heard of it at school and downloaded it herself and just typed in what she wanted. Apple are making iPods with 160gb hard drives or more. So they expect her to spend e20,000 to fill it. There is something seriously wrong with the whole system here and punishing people like this is only going to make it worse.

    Now, a member asked earlier on if this is only music or all copyright? Because this is setting a very dangerous precidance down the line for all of us. Will they start disrupting video streaming next in case of copyright?

    I think people should relax because this will be a hot topic at the start but it will fizzle out because it will not work period. They will have to literally shut down the web to stop it.

    Being human is not an excuse for breaking the law. There is absolutely no compulsion on anyone to buy an Apple ipod with a 160gb hard drive and if they do there is certainly no obligation on anyone to fill it. What exactly is ''seriously wrong with the whole system here''? Is it selling ipods with big hard drives? And what exactly is this 'very dangerous precidance down the line'?

    A hammer is not an illegal instrument. What you do with it may be illegal. These tools are neutral just as limewire is and so on. The use they are put to is what matters.

    And as for 'punishing' people. Attempting to protect copyrighted material is now punishment for people?


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    #351
    AntiRip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭AntiRip


    dub45 wrote: »
    Being human is not an excuse for breaking the law. There is absolutely no compulsion on anyone to buy an Apple ipod with a 160gb hard drive and if they do there is certainly no obligation on anyone to fill it. What exactly is ''seriously wrong with the whole system here''? Is it selling ipods with big hard drives? And what exactly is this 'very dangerous precidance down the line'?

    A hammer is not an illegal instrument. What you do with it may be illegal. These tools are neutral just as limewire is and so on. The use they are put to is what matters.

    And as for 'punishing' people. Attempting to protect copyrighted material is now punishment for people?


    I'm talking about a 7 year old kid here.


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    #352
    telemakus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭telemakus


    to be honest, what is the law for Music companies snooping on your packets?
    With out downloading i dont really need broadband! Take note eircom!
    Im never gonna buy another album again in Ireland. Take note IMRO, coz i hate you all.
    IMRO Disgust me! You are weak!
    Eircom will LOOSE more than gain from this
    Not even police state Britain would do this! And recently said it would not!

    People can say about unfounded facts like 69Billion from lost album sales, but thats rubbish!! (i mean if release a CD of music and its costs 1Billion to buy, and someone downloads 6 of em, then i lost 6billion??? Does that logic work? i think not!

    6000 thousand Downloads is equivalent to 1CD (proven recently by smart people) of lost revenue apparently! Which in Ireland's case is not really significant to over all revenue base!

    If you ask me this is vanity, from a tiny market in Europe, who would normally not get to go to Music HQ in the USA, who got attention from mommy and daddy (Major record labelsHQ in USA) by pushing OLD methods and out of date thinking on this downloading isse and method of doing business, that are now being abandoned by MAJOR labels in MAJOR markets around the world! Once the smoke has cleared! This is jut a giant nail in the IMRO and Eircom. And im Happy!

    It is a violation of anyones right in EUROPE to be removed from the Internet! :) Lets see this tiny market and ISP Try to enforce that, Let alone ponder the legal implications of attempting to snoop on peoples internet! (WHICH IS highly illegal!!)

    :) All this has done has damaged Ireland internation reputation as a tech hub! And a place where, lobbying and paying people off, still works! ;)

    I really want to know the States legal position on this!! Because ISP's and Tiny music organisations dont really count for much!


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    #353
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    As an example of what sony are doing ,I downloaded some music on the ps3 a few days ago.
    It actually printed on the screen the music was DRM FREE ,copy it to your mp3 player or phone and enjoy it !

    hopefully we see more of this trust in people from the likes of sony ,it will make things a lot easier.


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    #354
    AntiRip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭AntiRip


    dub45 wrote: »
    Being human is not an excuse for breaking the law.


    Never broke the speed limit then dub45?


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    #355
    generalmiaow
    Registered Users Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    barnicles wrote: »
    PeerGuardian etc. will not work as if you start a torrent in uTorrent and click on the peers tab, right click and say Copy Peer List, you have the full list!

    That is not how the major p2p network monitors get IP addresses. Believe it or not, they believe they are acting ethically. I wish I could find a link but you will see if you look it up that they actually have to peer with you to log an IP. Simply being a member of the swarm is not enough to prove you are actually throughputting the relevant file pieces. PeerGuardian would be enough if it was up to date.

    Anyway, I don't think this move would stand up in a fair debate and I doubt it will work at all. Too many variables, like compromised wifi and the fact that as far as eircom is concerned, any complaint requires absolutely zero proof. I would be more worried about ACTA or what the EU wants to do with P2P. For those of you who download mostly linux ISOs (like me) there is nothing to worry about, since the industry don't monitor those swarms.


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    #356
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    AntiRip wrote: »
    Sorry Cabaal, but you are not entirely right here. Most people if not all people aren't saints like yourself. We're all human, limewire etc. are not illegal programs. My 7 year old niece heard of it at school and downloaded it herself and just typed in what she wanted. Apple are making iPods with 160gb hard drives or more. So they expect her to spend e20,000 to fill it. There is something seriously wrong with the whole system here and punishing people like this is only going to make it worse.

    I never at any time said that Limewire or any other P2P was illegal in anyway, I did however state that downloading copyright material is against the law.

    You can try and justify it all you want but its illegal,


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    #357
    Tony Broke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Tony Broke


    Rapidshare, megashares etc are safe?


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    #358
    generalmiaow
    Registered Users Posts: 865 ✭✭✭generalmiaow


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    As an example of what sony are doing ,I downloaded some music on the ps3 a few days ago.
    It actually printed on the screen the music was DRM FREE ,copy it to your mp3 player or phone and enjoy it !

    hopefully we see more of this trust in people from the likes of sony ,it will make things a lot easier.


    Sony are hardly the best example. but I agree otherwise.


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    #359
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    telemakus wrote: »
    to be honest, what is the law for Music companies snooping on your packets?

    sigh
    They are not, your connect to a P2P source that they are connected to, they log your IP which is available to EVERY website you visit anyway.

    What they are doing is perfectly legal,


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    #360
    AntiRip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭AntiRip


    Cabaal wrote: »

    You can try and justify it all you want but its illegal,


    I totally agree with you that its illegal. I was just saying that my neice was using my wifi using this and she doesn't know it wasn't illegal. Thats all


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    #361
    jor el
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    In this month's Mix Magazine, a US Recording Trade Magazine, states that the 'Estimated value of unlicensed music trafficked on P2P networks in 2007, $69 BILLION'

    I've seen these numbers bandied about before, and I do believe that they are not accurate. The way they calculate losses, is to put a value on every single song that was being shared, and multiply by the number of times they believe it was shared. This only gives a real result, in terms of loss of sales, if every single person that downloaded a track illegally, would have bought that track anyway. In a lot of cases, IMO, these wouldn't have translated into sales, had the track not been available illegally. So the figures are distorted, by a large amount I would say.

    Also, from listening to representatives of IRMA and the RIAA, etc, they seem to be garnishing the illegal track sharing figures somewhat. They often make reference to individuals who were sharing tens of thousands of tracks, to tens of thousands of other Internet users, on a weekly basis. Now, a person may have this number of music tracks in their share folder, but it's not likely that you could upload that many songs, to that many users, in such a period of time. It just couldn't happen.

    Not saying that it doesn't hurt the music industry, but the figures they quote are way off the mark, in my opinion.


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