The Richard Keys defence results in €17.5 payout

Ficheall · 22-10-2019 4:05pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Ficheall wrote: »

Or other social situation, according to the definition you quoted, right?

No just work. I don't think that is a crazy idea that you should be able to go to your job without getting creeped on. Maybe it is.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Definition -
behaviour characterized by the making of unwelcome and inappropriate sexual remarks or physical advances in a workplace or other professional or social situation.

Doesn't sound like just work to me, tbh.

Diceicle · 22-10-2019 4:11pm

blinding wrote: »

The ladies can’t cut it in the work place . Time off for periods , time off for the menopause , can’t handle a bit of banter , when the going gets tough / heavy , let the men do it . Long hours ; let the men do it . Work far from home ; let the men do it .

Women have found the work place much harder than they thought it was and find every and any exuse to do a runner to their safe place at home watching Good Morning TV and the Like .

Give it up Ladies most of ye would be much happier at home with yer’e feet up .

But you can bet your life they'll want the same pay but not the same hours. Total bourgeois feminism.
This kind of action does the ladies no favours in the workplace.
More Wo-moaning from the anti-banter brigade.

Stevieluvsye · 22-10-2019 4:13pm

Diceicle wrote: »

But you can bet your life they'll want the same pay but not the same hours. Total bourgeois feminism.

You must be on the wind up?

jam_mac_jam · 22-10-2019 4:22pm

Ficheall wrote: »

Doesn't sound like just work to me, tbh.

Write to google and ask them to change it so.
You asked I clarified. I am talking about work. That's what the thread is about. If you have to pick apart people's argument word by word then maybe your point is invalid.

Typing really slowly here... I.. am.... talking... about... work..

blinding · 22-10-2019 4:32pm

Women have found the work place much more difficult that they realised . They do everything and anything to be away home with their feet up . Yer man said that , yer man did this .

Sure look at Meghan Markle . One of the most cosseted people in the world but because herself and Harry are feminists they can whinge and moan ad nauseum . Women and Feminism in the work place will not end well .

Ficheall · 22-10-2019 4:43pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Write to google and ask them to change it so.
You asked I clarified. I am talking about work. That's what the thread is about. If you have to pick apart people's argument word by word then maybe your point is invalid.

Typing really slowly here... I.. am.... talking... about... work..

Instead of typing your response slowly, you could perhaps spend the time thinking before writing it.

The definition you provided to back up your point would class the same action in a social situation as harassment - your posts suggests that you would disagree that it would be (I think?).

So when someone asks for a kiss in a social situation and is accused of harassment, citing your definition, would you agree that it was harassment?
Or would you say that the definition was imperfect at best? In which case, perhaps you would like find a definition of harassment to cite that actually agrees with the intricacies of your own personal view?

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-10-2019 4:51pm

Ficheall wrote: »

So when someone asks for a kiss in a social situation and is accused of harassment, citing your definition, would you agree that it was harassment?

He had already asked her to go to the cinema with him and she declined. In light of that, subsequently asking her for a kiss was harassment. On the lower end of the scale, certainly, and the company handled it wrongly, but it was still harassment.

jam_mac_jam · 22-10-2019 4:52pm

Ficheall wrote: »

Instead of typing your response slowly, you could perhaps spend the time thinking before writing it.

The definition you provided to back up your point would class the same action in a social situation as harassment - your posts suggests that you would disagree that it would be (I think?).

So when someone asks for a kiss in a social situation and is accused of harassment, citing your definition, would you agree that it was harassment?
Or would you say that the definition was imperfect at best? In which case, perhaps you would like find a definition of harassment to cite that actually agrees with the intricacies of your own personal view?

Going around in circles here. I have explained twice already that I am discussing a work situation, if you don't understand that point or you wish to continue going off on tangents that's fine.

Ficheall · 22-10-2019 4:58pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Going around in circles here. I have explained twice already that I am discussing a work situation, if you don't understand that point or you wish to continue going off on tangents that's fine.

Just one circle, and just one tangent - ergo one point

(maths joke, forgive me):

Do you agree with the definition you provided, or don't you?

mcmoustache · 22-10-2019 5:28pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Well WRC has deemed it unfair dismissal and they didn't follow any form of procedure. Procedures are there for everyone including addressing how people behave as well as varying levels of sanctions.

In unfair dismissal cases, this part is key. There were so many ways for the company to avoid this.

Alrigghtythen · 22-10-2019 6:13pm

Jaysus people are precious

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2019 10:12pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Unless you're really thick, it's not confusing at all. You won't go far wrong if you behave appropriately towards your colleagues, especially if you don't know them well - i.e. don't ask them to kiss you because some sports team won a game. They're there to do a job, not to satisfy your creepy urges.

Again: how is asking for a kiss "creepy"?

Still waters · 22-10-2019 10:25pm

She must have been a right cnut

EmmetSpiceland · 22-10-2019 10:31pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again: how is asking for a kiss "creepy"?

Phrases like “giz a kiss”, “shot of your gash?”, “how’s your fanny?”, “while your down there...”, “blow me flute” or “nice tits, luv” are examples of what should never be said in a professional environment.

Asking a colleague for a kiss is incredible creepy. And you would have to wonder about their mental ability to keep a “position” in your company if one of your employees did it.

I’d say the company is happy enough to pay the fine and be shot of the clown. He’s probably “celebrating” down the pub as we speak grabbing at bar girls and giving out about how “you can’t say anything anymore”, that money won’t go very far.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:41pm

The man in question handled the situation badly. He already asked her out and she said know, asking for a kiss was very clearly inappropriate.

The company was worse again. He deserved a chat with HR and a warning, not the sack.

The woman didn't do anything wrong. Expecting us to put up with this kind of 'banter' is bullsh1t.

beejee · 22-10-2019 10:44pm

Everyone's entitled to my opinion, so here it is.

The Internet is starting to come to life through actual people. Internet people.

Internet people absorb the thought-crimes of Twitter et al, and then go out into real life to actually behave the same as the crazy words they've read. Bombardment will do that.

Going by the information here, your woman is an Internet person. Absorbed all the hysteria, self-entitlement and offensively prudish nature of what she was subjecting her mind to, saw an opportunity to reenact the Internet in real life, and went in for the overkill.

The world is going to divide itself into two groups, actual people and Internet people, and they'll mix like oil and water. The slightest whiff of Internet off someone is an alarm bell

Just trying to imagine the actual complaint being said to another human being is ludicrous!

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:53pm

beejee wrote: »

Everyone's entitled to my opinion, so here it is.

The Internet is starting to come to life through actual people. Internet people.

Internet people absorb the thought-crimes of Twitter et al, and then go out into real life to actually behave the same as the crazy words they've read. Bombardment will do that.

Going by the information here, your woman is an Internet person. Absorbed all the hysteria, self-entitlement and offensively prudish nature of what she was subjecting her mind to, saw an opportunity to reenact the Internet in real life, and went in for the overkill.

The world is going to divide itself into two groups, actual people and Internet people, and they'll mix like oil and water. The slightest whiff of Internet off someone is an alarm bell

Just trying to imagine the actual complaint being said to another human being is ludicrous!

So a female friend comes to you and says: "This guy started working with me a few days ago and he asked me out but I wasn't interested so I said no. Then as he was leaving work the other night, he asked me for a kiss. I was really uncomfortable with the way he was behaving so I told my manager."

You think she's out of line?

How many times would she have had to say 'no' to his advances before you would consider it creepy/ inappropriate?

Bear in mind, the girl didn't fire him. She just told her manager he was acting inappropriately, which he was.

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-10-2019 10:55pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again: how is asking for a kiss "creepy"?

A colleague whom you barely know? A few days after she declined your invitation to the cinema? Are you being willfully obtuse or are you genuinely that clueless?

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:02pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

So a female friend comes to you and says: "This guy started working with me a few days ago and he asked me out but I wasn't interested so I said no. Then as he was leaving work the other night, he asked me for a kiss. I was really uncomfortable with the way he was behaving so I told my manager."

You think she's out of line?

How many times would she have had to say 'no' to his advances before you would consider it creepy/ inappropriate?

Bear in mind, the girl didn't fire him. She just told her manager he was acting inappropriately, which he was.

As I said, I wasn't there, I'm only going on the information provided.

If some girl I had only just met had done the same thing to me, I can 100% tell you the idea of going straight to make an official complaint wouldn't even cross my mind.

I'm a conscientious person, and trying to imagine saying that complaint to management sounds like poison in a workplace. Forgetting the specific outcome here, just imagine having to work with someone like that? Every opportunity to avoid them for fear of "offense" would exist palpably.

Now, who knows the details, your man could have been a right prikk or an innocent dude caught up in a silly moment.

Her? She either completely over-reacted, or...? Where's the "nice" rationale for doing that as soon as starting to work with someone?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2019 11:03pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Phrases like “giz a kiss”, “shot of your gash?”, “how’s your fanny?”, “while your down there...”, “blow me flute” or “nice tits, luv” are examples of what should never be said in a professional environment.

Asking a colleague for a kiss is incredible creepy. And you would have to wonder about their mental ability to keep a “position” in your company if one of your employees did it.

I’d say the company is happy enough to pay the fine and be shot of the clown. He’s probably “celebrating” down the pub as we speak grabbing at bar girls and giving out about how “you can’t say anything anymore”, that money won’t go very far.

Firstly, it was a peck on the cheek he asked for and he didn't use any obscene language (if he had, I'd be more inclined to see your point)

Secondly, I've been in several jobs where colleagues hooked up (both on and off shift) and no one said anything.

The fact that they were working would mean that his behaviour could be labeled unprofessional at best but not "creepy". Certainly not sexual harassment (if it was sexual harassment, then what difference does it make whether they were working together or not? Either it's sexual harassment or it's not!)

Finally, a kiss on the check is not even sexual. I've seen kids give grandparents a peck on the check and no one ever made any accusations.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:07pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Firstly, it was a peck on the cheek he asked for and he didn't use any obscene language (if he had, I'd be more inclined to see your point)

Secondly, I've been in several jobs where colleagues hooked up (both on and off shift) and no one said anything.

The fact that they were working would mean that his behaviour could be labeled unprofessional at best but not "creepy". Certainly not sexual harassment (if it was sexual harassment, then what difference does it make whether they were working together or not? Either it's sexual harassment or it's not!)

Finally, a kiss on the check is not even sexual. I've seen kids give grandparents a peck on the check and no one ever made any accusations.

So, do you think men should be allowed/ encouraged to ask women for kisses at work? What if it's on the lips? Where would you draw the line?

He asked her out, she said no. She had already made it clear she wasn't interested and he asked for a kiss anyway. That's what makes it inappropriate.

There's a huge difference between that and mutual flirtation. When you're at work (or anywhere really) and you try it on with someone, you should let it go if they say no.

blinding · 22-10-2019 11:10pm

Women are too fragile mentally and physically for the work place . They really don’t want to be there . They want to be at home watching Good Morning with there Feet Up .

eviltwin · 22-10-2019 11:12pm

All this woman did was report him to management which was the appropriate thing to do so not sure why she gets all the hate.

I'm sure if some of the male posters here were repeatedly hit on by a gay guy they'd do the same.

Strumms · 22-10-2019 11:13pm

I think both parties were in the wrong to an extent...

if he liked her, he should have said ‘here, do you fancy going for a drink one evening ?’, it was just bad judgment and a bit creepy to be that forward...

The girl in question could have said, listen, sorry I don’t want to be spoken too like that, you are being a bit of a creep...sort yourself out...

Then if there was ever repeated behavior of this type.. reporting him would be warranted.

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:14pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

So, do you think men should be allowed/ encouraged to ask women for kisses at work? What if it's on the lips? Where would you draw the line?

He asked her out, she said no. She had already made it clear she wasn't interested and he asked for a kiss anyway. That's what makes it inappropriate.

There's a huge difference between that and mutual flirtation. When you're at work (or anywhere really) and you try it on with someone, you should let it go if they say no.

It's not a case of where to draw a line, it's discussing the available information, not dreaming up scenarios.

Barely working together and she's straight to management for official complaints about something?

Would you like to work with a person like that? Would you like to hire a person like that?

Devil is in the detail, but what is available doesn't sound good to me. Nor the courts. Nor, I imagine, the company.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:15pm

beejee wrote: »

As I said, I wasn't there, I'm only going on the information provided.

If some girl I had only just met had done the same thing to me, I can 100% tell you the idea of going straight to make an official complaint wouldn't even cross my mind.

I'm a conscientious person, and trying to imagine saying that complaint to management sounds like poison in a workplace. Forgetting the specific outcome here, just imagine having to work with someone like that? Every opportunity to avoid them for fear of "offense" would exist palpably.

Now, who knows the details, your man could have been a right prikk or an innocent dude caught up in a silly moment.

Her? She either completely over-reacted, or...? Where's the "nice" rationale for doing that as soon as starting to work with someone?

It's bizarre that you're expecting the woman in this scenario to be nice. A colleague asked her out within a couple of days of meeting her, and she said no. Then he asked for a kiss on the cheek, which made her feel uncomfortable, so she told her manager.

Why should she be expected to be nice in this scenario, where an inappropriate colleague won't take the hint? I'm sure she would have preferred not to have that conversation too, but if she felt like it was going to continue (and twice in just four days suggests he had no intention of letting it go) she had every right to report him.

How many times would she have had to say no to him before you think a complaint is appropriate? Three, five, 10?

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:18pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

It's bizarre that you're expecting the woman in this scenario to be nice. A colleague asked her out within a couple of days of meeting her, and she said no. Then he asked for a kiss on the cheek, which made her feel uncomfortable, so she told her manager.

Why should she be expected to be nice in this scenario, where an inappropriate colleague won't take the hint? I'm sure she would have preferred not to have that conversation too, but if she felt like it was going to continue (and twice in just four days suggests he had no intention of letting it go) she had every right to report him.

How many times would she have had to say no to him before you think a complaint is appropriate? Three, five, 10?

It's bizarre to be nice in a work environment with work colleagues that step out of line momentarily, and in a very relatively benign way?

Yeah, that's Internet thinking, all over.

ChikiChiki · 22-10-2019 11:19pm

D3V!L wrote: »

What about the woman he sexually harassed ?

Its not he actually won the 4-in-a-row, is it ? He was just a creepy chef who tried it on with a female co-worker.

Jesus wept. I'd view it as unprofessional ask such a question in the workplace but nothing more. Seems like banter with the wrong person in this case.

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-10-2019 11:20pm

Strumms wrote: »

if he liked her, he should have said ‘here, do you fancy going for a drink one evening ?’, it was just bad judgment and a bit creepy to be that forward...

The article says that he already asked her out just a few days previously. Which is fine - I mean, he put a colleague in the awkward position of having to turn him down, but no real harm done. He should have left it at that, rather than asking her to kiss him. Maybe she reported him because she felt that he was going to become a nuisance.

tayto lover · 22-10-2019 11:23pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

The article says that he already asked her out just a few days previously. Which is fine - I mean, he put a colleague in the awkward position of having to turn him down, but no real harm done. He should have left it at that, rather than asking her to kiss him. Maybe she reported him because she felt that he was going to become a nuisance.

Maybe she’s a wee bit too fragile.

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-10-2019 11:24pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe she’s a wee bit too fragile.

Maybe she deserves not to be harassed at work.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:24pm

beejee wrote: »

It's bizarre to be nice in a work environment with work colleagues that step out of line momentarily, and in a very relatively benign way?

Yeah, that's Internet thinking, all over.

Nope. Can confirm I'm a real person with a real life offline and I would feel deeply uncomfortable if the guy didn't get the hint the first time. Asking her out to the cinema was nice and totally acceptable. Asking her for a kiss was deeply inappropriate when she had already indicated she wasn't interested.

I've been in the working world for 10 years plus some change. I've had a variety of jobs in different companies and I've never been asked for a kiss in the workplace, I'd find it extremely weird if I was.

eviltwin · 22-10-2019 11:27pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe she’s a wee bit too fragile.

And if she hadn't gone to HR but handled it herself by telling him to F**K off she'd be an uptight bitch. She can't win.

She's entitled to feel how she feels about it and she covered herself by going to HR. She did nothing wrong.

blinding · 22-10-2019 11:33pm

If all that we hear happened is all that happened then she is too fragile for the workplace .

Unless the two of them were in it together = Pure genius .

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:35pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

Nope. Can confirm I'm a real person with a real life offline and I would feel deeply uncomfortable if the guy didn't get the hint the first time. Asking her out to the cinema was nice and totally acceptable. Asking her for a kiss was deeply inappropriate when she had already indicated she wasn't interested.

I've been in the working world for 10 years plus some change. I've had a variety of jobs in different companies and I've never been asked for a kiss in the workplace, I'd find it extremely weird if I was.

I'm not disputing whether you're alive or not. My point earlier was the extreme, reactionary thoughts of the Internet, channelled through an exposed person, actually manifesting in real life.

Its not only possible, it's practically guaranteed.

I've had a couple dodgy moments working, but again, this rapid over-reaction is a bad thing all round. Evidently!

Many, many different ways it could have been handled in a superior fashion. But it wasn't. And that's my overall point, what happened was stupid.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:35pm

blinding wrote: »

If all that we hear happened is all that happened then she is too fragile for the workplace .

Unless the two of them were in it together = Pure genius .

I think you're too fragile for boards, buddy. This story seems to have really gotten to you.

blinding · 22-10-2019 11:36pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

I think you're too fragile for boards, buddy. This story seems to have really gotten to you.

Its not easy being a chef !;)

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:36pm

beejee wrote: »

Many, many different ways it could have been handled in a superior fashion. But it wasn't. And that's my overall point, what happened was stupid.

We agree there. But it was the company who overreacted and handled it badly, not the girl. And that's why they are the ones who are out €17.5k.

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:38pm

eviltwin wrote: »

And if she hadn't gone to HR but handled it herself by telling him to F**K off she'd be an uptight bitch. She can't win.

She's entitled to feel how she feels about it and she covered herself by going to HR. She did nothing wrong.

No I don't think so. One is infinitely worse than the other.

You don't improve your working life through complaining at the relative drop of a hat, you do it by absorbing an acceptable amount of difficulty, no matter the form, and learn to overcome difficulties on your own reconnaissance.

It's a weak company that folds under such miniscule pressure, and you're only as good as your weakest link etc.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:41pm

beejee wrote: »

You don't improve your working life through complaining at the relative drop of a hat, you do it by absorbing an acceptable amount of difficulty, no matter the form, and learn to overcome difficulties on your own reconnaissance.

You see it as 'the drop of a hat'. She didn't. I don't. That's subjective. As is 'an acceptable amount of difficulty'.

I've asked you twice how many times she should be expected to let him hit on her but you keep changing the subject - what is acceptable to one person in this scenario is not to another.

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:43pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

We agree there. But it was the company who overreacted and handled it badly, not the girl. And that's why they are the ones who are out €17.5k.

Once a complaint of such nature is made to management officially, it practically guarantees certain procedures must happen.

From a "choice" point of view, her action essentially cornered the company with few ways out. It was not a sensible decision on her behalf, considering the rapidity of escalation.

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:45pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

You see it as 'the drop of a hat'. She didn't. I don't. That's subjective. As is 'an acceptable amount of difficulty'.

I've asked you twice how many times she should be expected to let him hit on her but you keep changing the subject - what is acceptable to one person in this scenario is not to another.

On the contrary, you are trying to pull the talk into an area of "what if?!"

I'm only talking about the information presented.

So, based on that information, I can say that it was an over reaction based on very little.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2019 11:46pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

So, do you think men should be allowed/ encouraged to ask women for kisses at work? What if it's on the lips? Where would you draw the line?

So, do you think a man asking for a kiss is sexual harassment?

(In answer to your question: I'd deem it unprofessional)

He asked her out, she said no. She had already made it clear she wasn't interested and he asked for a kiss anyway. That's what makes it inappropriate.

There's a huge difference between that and mutual flirtation. When you're at work (or anywhere really) and you try it on with someone, you should let it go if they say no.

I'm not denying inappropriate - I'm denying sexual harrassment.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:46pm

beejee wrote: »

Once a complaint of such nature is made to management officially, it practically guarantees certain procedures must happen.

From a "choice" point of view, her action essentially cornered the company with few ways out. It was not a sensible decision on her behalf, considering the rapidity of escalation.

The company had plenty of options - verbal warning, written warning, informal chat. Her options were a) put up and shut up b) address it with him directly (probably didn't want to take that route since he didn't take the hint the first time c) tell her manager.

Telling her manager was exactly the right thing to do if the guy was making her uncomfortable. If she tried to deal with it herself and it escalated, HR would say "You should have come to us sooner."

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:48pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, do you think a man asking for a kiss is sexual harassment?

I'm not denying inappropriate - I'm denying sexual harrassment.

At work? Yes, absolutely.

It is very clearly sexual harrassment, on the mild end of the scales, as the judge ruled. What other categoty of 'inappropriate' do you think it slots into?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2019 11:49pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

At work? Yes, absolutely.

It is very clearly sexual harrassment, on the mild end of the scales, as the judge ruled. What other categoty of 'inappropriate' do you think it slots into?

Then why would it not be considered sexual harassment as opposed to unprofessional outside of the workplace?

(Point of order though: did the girl is question actually deem it "sexual harassment" or was that HR? Or someone else?)

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-10-2019 11:52pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm not denying inappropriate - I'm denying sexual harrassment.

If he hadn't asked her out a few days previously, his request for a kiss could be construed as 'banter'. This shouldn't need explaining, but if someone tells you that they're not interested, and you persist regardless, that's harassment. It's not 'grabbing her arse' or 'whipping your lad out while passing her in the corridor' levels of harassment, but it is harassment.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:53pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then why would it not be considered sexual harassment as opposed to unprofessional outside of the workplace?

(Point of order though: did the girl is question actually deem it "sexual harassment" or was that HR? Or someone else?)

Why is it okay to get drunk at the weekend but it's not okay to go to work drunk?

Silly question really. Different standards apply in work than in our personal lives. We dress differently, we behave differently - most companies have a comprehensive set of policies and procedures you agree to when you sign a contract.

beejee · 22-10-2019 11:53pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

The company had plenty of options - verbal warning, written warning, informal chat. Her options were a) put up and shut up b) address it with him directly (probably didn't want to take that route since he didn't take the hint the first time c) tell her manager.

Telling her manager was exactly the right thing to do if the guy was making her uncomfortable. If she tried to deal with it herself and it escalated, HR would say "You should have come to us sooner."

My point wasn't about the existence of options, it's about the severe reduction in options.

Her action resulted in a severe reduction of options to ameliorate the situation.

To do such a thing, over a relatively benign "incident", and in such a very short space of time is not great!

The question is "why". Why such extreme? Was your man a real dirt bag, was she completely over-reacting?

It doesn't make much sense without some extreme being involved. Not knowing these extremes you base your opinion on the available information, and it seems to lean to the extremity being on her side. That's how the courts saw it too overall, albeit linked to the company.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 11:55pm

beejee wrote: »

On the contrary, you are trying to pull the talk into an area of "what if?!"

I'm only talking about the information presented.

So, based on that information, I can say that it was an over reaction based on very little.

Did you not say above that she should put up with an acceptable amount of difficulty? I'm asking you to define what's acceptable in your view, or else your statement is meaningless.

The Richard Keys defence results in €17.5 payout

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