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Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

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    #92
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,675 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Of course, this isn't the first time that a civilian airliner has been shot down over Iranian airspace. Iran Air Flight 655 was mistakenly shot down by the Americans in 1988, with the loss of almost 300 lives.

    The same thing may well have happened here, with the Iranians mistaking the plane for an enemy aircraft.


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    #93
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Surely some of the blame for this tragedy has to be placed at trumps feet for needlessly creating the unneccessarily volatile situation that caused this

    Depends on whether or not you consider killing the mastermind behind a lot of attacks against US and allied forces needless.

    It's difficult to argue against Representative's Crenshaw's main point here, and if there's a member of Congress more familiar with Iranian special operations, I don't know who that would be.

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=462830391076234


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    #94
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Depends on whether or not you consider killing the mastermind behind a lot of attacks against US and allied forces needless.

    It's difficult to argue against Representative's Crenshaw's main point here, and if there's a member of Congress more familiar with Iranian special operations, I don't know who that would be.

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=462830391076234

    Its very easy to argue against it when you have a republican senator coming out clearly stating they are not able to brief him with any real evidence whatsoever that the assasination was in anyway neccessary and pompeo unable to give anything real as evidence beyond saying the threat was immediate which without context means absolutely nothing .

    And thats ignoring the fact of the deplorable way it was done by using an ally to invite him to negotiate with them as an intermediary and killing him as hes one the way there, who is going to trust Trump or America ever again now that they have shown they will act in such a distrustful and honestly cowardly manner.


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    #95
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,022 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    NYT running with a video that appears to show a missile hitting a plane near Tehran.

    Absolutely some of the blame for this will fall at Trump's feet, but you can be damn sure he won't acknowledge that.

    Big **** up from Iran who had played the PR game pretty well up to now, the civilian casualties will now wipe out any good will built up by their "restraint" and "measured" response.


    Edit Video Shows Ukrainian Plane Being Hit Over Iran https://nyti.ms/307EQF2

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #96
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    serfboard wrote: »
    Of course, this isn't the first time that a civilian airliner has been shot down over Iranian airspace. Iran Air Flight 655 was mistakenly shot down by the Americans in 1988, with the loss of almost 300 lives.

    The same thing may well have happened here, with the Iranians mistaking the plane for an enemy aircraft.

    'Mistaking'. Here's what Bush said afterwards:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10qatUWwIeg

    Maybe the Iranians will give out medals to the officers who did this as well.


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    #97
    peddlelies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭peddlelies


    No intended slight on the victims intended. Iran's initial response was very timid given that the US assassinated their second most powerful man, it was a bit of save face. Now with proof they shot down an innocent passenger plane they come out of this recent conflict with the US looking weak and incompetent.

    The Political hawks will be loving it, it's just such a monstrosity so many innocent people died. I won't go as far to say that Trump has blood on his hands though, that fault lies with the Iranians.


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    #98
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,022 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Iran's official response was perfect, it allowed them project strength domestically while not escalating the tension any further.

    The cock up, if indeed it has happened will undo a lot of that initial good work. Plenty of hands for the blood to be shared around in all fairness.

    Sad loss of life, in what can only have been an error. Not the first of course and won't be the last but sad none the less.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #99
    Fonny122
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Fonny122


    Canada is saying Iran - https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/champagne-iran-plane-crash-1.5420398. Pretty sure I saw that Iraq are saying similar, and it's the most logical course of events (thinking it was a us missile in retaliation).

    Since the US and Iran are about equally untrustworthy these days, it's probably best to ignore either of their claims to be honest.

    I heard a murmur of Russia also, but it makes too much sense that it was Iran.


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    #100
    Ben Done
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭Ben Done


    everlast75 wrote: »
    I heard an interview on a podcast and they reminded me of comments made by the producer of The Apprentice.

    In the making of that show, Trump would not read any material given to him, saunter in towards the end of the filming and make a decision, not based on any performance by a candidate, but based on something that ticked him off or influenced him at the last minute.

    The producer was frustrated by this decision, as it meant they had to go back and edit the show to make the decision made by Trump to be logical - a kind of reverse engineering.

    The scary part about it is, it's exactly what is happening in the Administration. He makes a ****ty, instinctive decision and people then had to go to work to reverse engineer "reasons" for it.

    Do you remember the podcast / have a link by any chance?


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    #101
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 18,977 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    Ben Done wrote: »
    Do you remember the podcast / have a link by any chance?

    The latest Trumpcast made reference to the interview. I googled the interview itself and some pages revealed what was said


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    #102
    Ben Done
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭Ben Done


    everlast75 wrote: »
    The latest Trumpcast made reference to the interview. I googled the interview itself and some pages revealed what was said


    I presume it was someone lower than Mark Burnett?
    As far as I know, he has kept omerta on on the whole thing - another rabbit hole, if you wanted to go delving into Burnett's role in this extraordinary psychodrama.


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    #103
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,866 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Oafley Jones wrote: »
    From https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/lindsey-graham-senate-trump-928948/

    “People try to analyze Lindsey through the prism of the manifest inconsistencies that exist between things that he used to believe and what he’s doing now,” Schmidt says. “The way to understand him is to look at what’s consistent. And essentially what he is in American politics is what, in the aquatic world, would be a pilot fish: a smaller fish that hovers about a larger predator, like a shark, living off of its detritus. That’s Lindsey. And when he swam around the McCain shark, broadly viewed as a virtuous and good shark, Lindsey took on the patina of virtue. But wherever the apex shark is, you find the Lindsey fish hovering about, and Trump’s the newest shark in the sea. Lindsey has a real draw to power — but he’s found it unattainable on his own merits.”
    Thats such a perfect metaphor for all the Republicans these days tbh. Remember the likes of Romney and Cruz before and after the last election.


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    #104
    Paleface
    Registered Users Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭Paleface


    To accidentally shoot down a plane that took off in your own airspace is nothing but pure incompetence. It’s a PR disaster for Iran. RIP to the innocent victims.

    None of this would have transpired if Trump hadn’t overstepped in the first place of course. I suspect there is more to come in this chain of events.


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    #105
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,022 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Hopefully it will be back to the usual proxy fighting. Further escalation in an official capacity is going to be very hard to stop snowballing out of control given The Donald's unpredictable nature and propensity to dig further when in a hole.

    Iran are allowing external investigators in to examine the scene I read a few hours ago. That will hopefully go some way to clearing this particular mess up definitively.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #106
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    peddlelies wrote: »
    No intended slight on the victims intended. Iran's initial response was very timid given that the US assassinated their second most powerful man, it was a bit of save face. Now with proof they shot down an innocent passenger plane they come out of this recent conflict with the US looking weak and incompetent.

    It's certainly a disaster for them, including the way it has also taken attention from the fact that their attack on the US side of the airbase they hit was a lot more accurate than the Americans had thought they could manage (it seems they hit the room where Trump was filmed meeting the troops last Thanksgiving day).

    peddlelies wrote: »
    The Political hawks will be loving it, it's just such a monstrosity so many innocent people died. I won't go as far to say that Trump has blood on his hands though, that fault lies with the Iranians.
    How on earth could anyone think that - at worst their security systems failed, but they were on war alert after an illegal attack against a high ranking member of their government.

    By that logic, Trump has as much blood on his hands from any one of those weddings the Americans are in the habit of bombing in that part of the world.


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    #107
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Paleface wrote: »
    None of this would have transpired if Trump hadn’t overstepped in the first place of course.

    None of this would have transpired if Iran hadn't killed an Iraqi-American contractor and then planned to carry out further such attacks. Soleimani was a terrorist. He deserved to die.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    ..they were on war alert after an illegal attack against a high ranking member of their government.

    It was not an illegal attack and referring to him as a "high ranking member of their government" is laughable. He was a terrorist, pure and simple, and the pearl clutching over his death by the left (worldwide) is, as ever, very telling. It shows just how low these people are willing to go in their efforts to oust Pres. Trump from office. Lord do they want power badly.

    Not that we didn't know that already of course, as almost every liberal in a position of power in western society has done whatever they could do to undermine Trump's presidency over the last three years. From FBI falsifying emails, lying to fellow investigators, the DNC paying scum for salacious gossip so it could then be used as grounds to spy on the Trump campaign, and all with the ultimate goal of leaking these malicious lies to the media in an effort to sway the public away from voting for Trump, the man the Kremlin supposedly had all that compromising info on.

    I had thought Hillary, Brennan, Comey and the leftist MSM selling their collective souls to do what they could to try and ensure Trump wasn't elected (/was impeached after he was elected) was as low as the leftists in power could get, but no, as they have really outdone themselves this past week taking the side of terrorists who chant 'Death to America' on the regular. Simply doesn't matter to them of course. They'd clearly defend Hitler if they thought it would be even one more cut in the death by a thousand cuts crusade they're undoubtedly on.

    Their concern for the Iranians is about as genuine as the concern for children detained at the border, or Christine Ford, or that Ukraine got its lethal aid etc etc [insert your favourite Trump accusation here]. Sincere principled expressions of concern from democrats in the US is all but nonexistent for quite some time now. Sanctimony is all we hear and all we are likely to hear for the foreseeable. Which of course will just ensure that Pres. Trump gets to spend four more years on Pennsylvania Ave and so he should given the exceptional job he has done, despite the constant obstruction from the majority of democrats in Congress.


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    #108
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    No-one deserves to die.

    You can hate and even inflict death upon someone who committed a heinous act upon you, but no-one deserves to die.

    You are not the judge nor the jury.


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    #109
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 18,977 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    No-one deserves to die.

    You can hate and even inflict death upon someone who committed a heinous act upon you, but no-one deserves to die.

    You are not the judge nor the jury.

    There are a number of reasons why what trump did was wrong. In no particular order;

    1) a general being assassinated not proportionate to the killing of a contractor
    2) not notifying the Iraqis
    3) not securing support from allies
    4) not notifying the gang of eight
    5) not notifying Congress
    6) it displayed Trump's ignorance of intentional law when he commented that he was going to hit cultural sites etc

    And that's just from the general knowledge available at this time.

    But most of all, you know it's wrong because the "reason" for it, according to Pompeo, Haspill etc was that there was an "imminent threat". They have singularly failed to prove that, both in the tv appearances but more worryingly in the intelligence briefings. That's according to not only the Democrats, but Republicans too.

    But Trump supporters, keep reverse engineering "reasons". It must be exhausting.


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    #110
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,867 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I mean I would take Sanctimony over threatening the Iranian people with war crimes every day of the week. How anyone defending him just glosses over that is beyond me.

    Don't give me any of that terrorist stuff. No one cared about that when the order was given. The middle East is about oil. That is why you can help people kill thousands of innocent Americans with some planes and still have US president's selling you more weapons for years to come.


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    #111
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Judge rules E. Jean Carroll's rape accusation case against Trump can proceed. Seems like Team Trump didn't do much in defense, just delaying tactics. https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/477644-ny-judge-denies-trump-request-to-dismiss-lawsuit-by-e-jean-carroll


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    #112
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    DOJ closes Uranium One investigation after finding nothing. More tax dollars wasted in support of Fox News and Facebook bots.
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/justice-department-clinton-investigation-finds-nothing_n_5e17f328c5b6da971d13717c

    I'm so looking forward to the raft of investigations starting up once Trump's out of office into all the shenanigans he and his crime syndicate are getting into now.

    On a different note, wasn't there 'durham barr' or something going on about the Russian investigation? I wonder if that's failed to find anything so Trump decided to distract with Iran, too.


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    #113
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    everlast75 wrote: »
    There are a number of reasons why what trump did was wrong. In no particular order;

    1) a general being assassinated not proportionate to the killing of a contractor
    2) not notifying the Iraqis
    3) not securing support from allies
    4) not notifying the gang of eight
    5) not notifying Congress
    6) it displayed Trump's ignorance of intentional law when he commented that he was going to hit cultural sites etc

    And that's just from the general knowledge available at this time.

    But most of all, you know it's wrong because the "reason" for it, according to Pompeo, Haspill etc was that there was an "imminent threat". They have singularly failed to prove that, both in the tv appearances but more worryingly in the intelligence briefings. That's according to not only the Democrats, but Republicans too.

    But Trump supporters, keep reverse engineering "reasons". It must be exhausting.

    Not only did they not notify the Iraqis they used them to draw him to negotiations regarding US Iranian relations, killing an official of a foreign government who is on the way to negiations with you that you requested is fvcking deplorable.


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    #114
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Not only did they not notify the Iraqis they used them to draw him to negotiations regarding US Iranian relations, killing an official of a foreign government who is on the way to negiations with you that you requested is fvcking deplorable.

    It's almost beyond belief that so many of Trump's foreign policy actions have just coincidentally had the result of causing extreme damage to the US's long-term reputation as an ally and as a negotiator.

    Who would sign up to any deal, any negotiation, any sensitive meeting with the US at this point, after seeing what's been done to the Iran Deal, the Kurdish alliance and now the Iraqis used as decoys to get at Soleimani?

    And what long-term benefit has been achieved by all this bad-faith dealing?


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    #115
    Stallingrad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Stallingrad


    Can't see how the downing of this jet can be blamed in any way on the US. That Iranian airspace was not shut down with missiles being launched and everyone at a heightened state of alert is madness.

    The Iranians were probably primed for a response to their missiles being launched and someone just made a tragic mistake firing on a civilian target.


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    #116
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,482 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Stallingrad wrote: »
    Can't see how the downing of this jet can be blamed in any way on the US. That Iranian airspace was not shut down with missiles being launched and everyone at a heightened state of alert is madness.

    The Iranians were probably primed for a response to their missiles being launched and someone just made a tragic mistake firing on a civilian target.

    The point being that that heightening state was as a direct result of the actions of Trump. It is also telling that the likes of Hannity were stating that the US were ready with fighter and bombing aircraft. So taking all that together, it would appear that a trigger happy crew made a terrible mistake.

    And the Iranians should of course have shut down the airspace.

    So blame all round.


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    #117
    Cody montana
    Registered Users Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    Igotadose wrote: »
    DOJ closes Uranium One investigation after finding nothing. More tax dollars wasted in support of Fox News and Facebook bots.
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/justice-department-clinton-investigation-finds-nothing_n_5e17f328c5b6da971d13717c

    I'm so looking forward to the raft of investigations starting up once Trump's out of office into all the shenanigans he and his crime syndicate are getting into now.

    On a different note, wasn't there 'durham barr' or something going on about the Russian investigation? I wonder if that's failed to find anything so Trump decided to distract with Iran, too.

    Is that three investigation in a row that turned up nothing??


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    #118
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 18,977 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    Cody montana wrote: »
    Is that three investigation in a row that turned up nothing??

    Best investigate the investigators!


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    #119
    Stallingrad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Stallingrad


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    The point being that that heightening state was as a direct result of the actions of Trump.

    I agree of course, but still think the blame for this incident lies entirely with Iran.

    If the US had shot down a civilian plane leaving Riyad during the Gulf War I doubt anyone would say the Iraqis were at fault.


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    #120
    Gwen Cooper
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭Gwen Cooper


    If you have a minute, read this thread by Seth Abramson:

    https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1215347774545416193

    It's an interesting look at the plane crash. Apparently shortly before the plane went down, Hannity was just opening his show with a nice speech implying that Iran is going to get bombed, pretty much said that the planes are already on the way.

    Abramson thinks that given Hannity's relationship with Trump, his show would be something that Iran keeps an eye on, and when they heard Hannity saying that an attack is imminent, they could have gotten freaked out a bit and shoot a low flying plane down.

    I don't believe that theory much, but a little part of me that says that it would be possible.


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    #121
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,022 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Stallingrad wrote: »
    I agree of course, but still think the blame for this incident lies entirely with Iran.

    If the US had shot down a civilian plane leaving Riyad during the Gulf War I doubt anyone would say the Iraqis were at fault.

    I guarantee some people actually would have blamed Iraq. At least partially, very like all involved here have blood on their hands.

    Whatever went wrong that night, and not having the airspace closed alone is a major **** up and Iran may take 95% of the blame they are not alone in bearing responsibility. The US has shot down a civilian plane before as a reference.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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