Our economy being too centered around Dublin.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 9:18am

Tell me how wrote: »

We need to get over ourselves if we think that Dublin is ever going to be on a par with the worlds biggest cities.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is.

But if Dublin is a 'level 2' city, Cork, Galway etc are 'level 3'.

(or Dublin is 'level 3' and the others are 'level 4', if you prefer)

Rhys Essien · 23-04-2019 9:19am

Del2005 wrote: »

Look at the USA where all the tech companies are setting up in California and ignoring the rust belt. Companies are choosing between Dublin, London, Paris, San Francisco etc not Muff or Dingle.

In every other country in the world they are urbanising and in the bigger scheme Dublin is still too small and needs more people and companies so that Ireland can compete with other countries. But no people think that we should be distributing industry around the country, which we did years ago with massive IDA grants and nearly every company left, when we should be pushing for more industry in Dublin. The problem with Dublin is combeen politicians who would rather waste hundreds of millions on a useless train line linking 2 cities that is slower than the new motorway than invest in proper public transport for Dublin. If we had Dart underground, planed for at least 30 years, and metro, 20 odd years of planning, then Dublin would have a working public transport system, but no we have trains that are only used by the free travel pass holders and everyone else driving.

I seriously hope you're taking the piss. We are at a stage now where we've created a monster and you want the monster to grow bigger.

Pawwed Rig · 23-04-2019 9:22am

PMBC wrote: »

Yes, that was the 'polycentric model' with Athlone as the main centre. I live in nad intend to stay in Dublin as Im fairly well insulated from the traffic and other problems but I think there is considerable merit in this idea. I cant see politicians accepting it, though. Imagine Cork and Galway anger not to mention Limerick and Waterford. Then there is Sligo and .....Recently a former high level civil servant has been promoting Limerick as THE alternative and there is a lot of merit in that. Wherever it is to be would need a high speed rail link to Dublin.

With a high speed rail link you could do Connolly to Athlone in 30mins or less. You could also do Galway to Athlone in the same time and not much more for Limerick. I would prefer a green field main centre between the 3 towns as otherwise you will be bogged down in negotiations and objections for decades.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 9:25am

lawred2 wrote: »

Invest in what?

How about subsidising flights in to Shannon and Cork to create greater access or rebranding them/marketing them differently rather than spending 900M on a second runway in Dublin (a moot point now as they are separate entities).

How about tax breaks for companies to locate in a particular region.

How about locating national facilities, whether medical, or administration, or research in places other than Dublin.

How about investing in non-active public transport infrastructure (cycling lanes/bus lanes) to increase attractiveness of such modes of transport in large cities.

How about creating cultural grants for venues to entice more people to either visit the region or to stay there instead of having to travel there.

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy, sure fire or cheap but that it should be considered for areas other than just Dublin as currently seems to be dis proportionally the case.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 9:27am

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is.

But if Dublin is a 'level 2' city, Cork, Galway etc are 'level 3'.

(or Dublin is 'level 3' and the others are 'level 4', if you prefer)

Del2005 was implying it.

I agree, there is no question that whatever level Dublin is at, the others are below this, but, the focus should be on closing this gap, not widening it.

Cina · 23-04-2019 9:27am

Tell me how wrote: »

How about subsidising flights in to Shannon and Cork to create greater access or rebranding them/marketing them differently rather than spending 900M on a second runway in Dublin (a moot point now as they are separate entities).

How about tax breaks for companies to locate in a particular region.

How about locating national facilities, whether medical, or administration, or research in places other than Dublin.

How about investing in non-active public transport infrastructure (cycling lanes/bus lanes) to increase attractiveness of such modes of transport in large cities.

How about creating cultural grants for venues to entice more people to either visit the region or to stay there instead of having to travel there.

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy, sure fire or cheap but that it should be considered for areas other than just Dublin as currently seems to be dis proportionally the case.

The runway is €320m.

And what can they do? Stop expanding the airport even though it's at full capacity? Seems illogical to me.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 9:31am

Cina wrote: »

The runway is €320m.

And what can they do? Stop expanding the airport even though it's at full capacity? Seems illogical to me.

Apologies if I was wrong on the 900M I heard someone from DAA talking on Newstalk about it two weeks ago and am pretty sure she said they were making the 900M investment to drive economic activity for the country.

It's capacity would be fine, if Cork and Shannon were utilised to the extent which their facilities could currently handle.

If Dublin is at 100% and Shannon at, say 50% and Cork 60% (I'm not sure on specifics) why is the best course of action to expand Dublins capacity, and then continue to have people driving from Clare, Galway, Limerick, Cork etc to Dublin because that is the only place from which to get a suitable flight?

rgodard80a · 23-04-2019 9:36am

Rhys Essien wrote: »

I seriously hope you're taking the piss. We are at a stage now where we've created a monster and you want the monster to grow bigger.

Monster?
It is a victim of it's own success and has growing pains in housing and transport.

But the huge numbers of I.T. and financial companies setting up here need access to skilled/experienced workers so they will all cluster around existing hubs.

There are an increasing number of companies setting up beyond the M50 but if they don't pay "Dublin wages" people will still commute past them to the centre.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 9:37am

Tell me how wrote: »

How about tax breaks for companies to locate in a particular region.

The IDA does offer support to companies to locate outside Dublin

Tell me how wrote: »

How about locating national facilities, whether medical, or administration, or research in places other than Dublin.

Decentralisation again?
It would hit the same problem as the last time. Ask Dublin-based civil servants if they'd like to work in Cork instead and maybe 15% would say yes. But that's 15% across all departments. There mightn't be any working units where most people would like to move to Cork.
And there is the problem of access. Sure, moving the national children's hospital to Cork sounds great - if you live in Cork. But for most of the population, Cork is harder to get to than Dublin.

Tell me how wrote: »

How about creating cultural grants for venues to entice more people to either visit the region or to stay there instead of having to travel there.

They exist. Do you think the Wexford Opera festival is self-funding?

Idbatterim · 23-04-2019 9:39am

Local and national politicians have done their utmost to stymy Dublin’s growth and failed. The world is urbanising. Dublin isn’t competitimg with other Irish towns for investment, Dublin gets it or ireland doesn’t ! Nobody is saying we are a London or New York either FFS! But we could be doing even better with a decent transport network and more housing. The government might decry the lack of money available, but it’s only down to their own moronic decisions!

RayCun · 23-04-2019 9:40am

Tell me how wrote: »

Del2005 was implying it.

I agree, there is no question that whatever level Dublin is at, the others are below this, but, the focus should be on closing this gap, not widening it.

His point (I think) is that Ireland is competing with other countries to attract companies. Easier to attract them to a level 2 city than a level 3 city.

lawred2 · 23-04-2019 9:46am

Greenways are being funded throughout Ireland as well

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 9:48am

RayCun wrote: »

The IDA does offer support to companies to locate outside Dublin

Of course it does, but I'm talking about more being done to specifically entice people not just in to Ireland but in to Ireland and outside of Dublin.

RayCun wrote: »

Decentralisation again?
It would hit the same problem as the last time. Ask Dublin-based civil servants if they'd like to work in Cork instead and maybe 15% would say yes. But that's 15% across all departments. There mightn't be any working units where most people would like to move to Cork.
And there is the problem of access. Sure, moving the national children's hospital to Cork sounds great - if you live in Cork. But for most of the population, Cork is harder to get to than Dublin.

I'm not talking about moving existing services such as we saw tried and failed with decentralisation.
Start small with an office outside Dublin and grow that rather than saying oh we have to get people to move.
This should particularly have to be done for new departments. But, it is not just governmental offices.
In sport, Rugby, Soccer, GAA, Swimming, Boxing, Athletics, Basketball national finals are all generally held in the capital where each bodies national venue is now located. You are not moving Croke Park overnight but would Boxing Ireland turn down a significant level of funding for a new venue if it was to be located in Athlone for example?

RayCun wrote: »

They exist. Do you think the Wexford Opera festival is self-funding?

Of course some national funding exists, but, more needs to be done. That is the point. And I'm not talking about throwing money eternally at white elephants, it must be part of a wider national strategy.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 9:50am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Local and national politicians have done their utmost to stymy Dublin’s growth and failed. The world is urbanising. Dublin isn’t competitimg with other Irish towns for investment, Dublin gets it or ireland doesn’t ! Nobody is saying we are a London or New York either FFS! But we could be doing even better with a decent transport network and more housing. The government might decry the lack of money available, but it’s only down to their own moronic decisions!

So lets have better urbanising around Sligo/Galway/Limerick/Cork/Waterford for a change rather than just focus on Dublin.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 9:52am

Tell me how wrote: »

If Dublin is at 100% and Shannon at, say 50% and Cork 60% (I'm not sure on specifics) why is the best course of action to expand Dublins capacity, and then continue to have people driving from Clare, Galway, Limerick, Cork etc to Dublin because that is the only place from which to get a suitable flight?

There seems to be several variations on the same question in this thread.

Why expand Dublin? Because that's where people want to live, want to work, want to fly from, want to be based.

Why not expand Shannon? Because people don't want to live there, work there, fly from there, be based there.

I mean Shannon airport is a prime example. The government spent decades trying to make Shannon airport a thing. Shannon airport is not a thing. It will never be a thing. There's simple economics of scale.

Let's say 1 million people live within an hour of Dublin airport, and half a million live within an hour of Shannon. There's another half a million you could go to either.

If you are an airline putting on flights to Berlin you'll think "okay, twice as many people live near Dublin, so we'll have twice as many flights from there". Makes sense, right?

Then the half a million people who could go to either, when they are looking for flights to Berlin, they see twice as many options from Dublin airport, so they are more likely to go there. Yes?

So now you have three times as many people going to Berlin via Dublin, so you have three times as many flights. And when airlines are deciding where to put administrative staff, they'll obviously put them in the place with more flights, and that's where more maintenance work will be carried out.

And then there are destinations that aren't viable at all from Shannon, but would be from Dublin, so people get a flight from Shannon to connect at Dublin to fly to Riga. And some people get that connecting flight to fly to Berlin because it works out easier, and so there is more demand for Dublin-Berlin flights and less demand for Shannon-Berlin flights, and so on, and so on.

Idbatterim · 23-04-2019 9:54am

Tell me how wrote: »

So lets have better urbanising around Sligo/Galway/Limerick/Cork/Waterford for a change rather than just focus on Dublin.

That is their plan , per their ireland 2040 plan! It doesn’t need to be either or! When I hear of total rural Ireland dying , it’s moronic planning policy for a large part. Stop the fcuking ribbon and one off Developoment!

RayCun · 23-04-2019 9:55am

Tell me how wrote: »

You are not moving Croke Park overnight but would Boxing Ireland turn down a significant level of funding for a new venue if it was to be located in Athlone for example?

Pretty sure they would, to be honest, if it meant lots of Dublin-based coaches and boxers were commuting back and forth all the time

RayCun · 23-04-2019 9:57am

Tell me how wrote: »

Of course some national funding exists, but, more needs to be done. That is the point. And I'm not talking about throwing money eternally at white elephants, it must be part of a wider national strategy.

But you're talking as if none of this already happens, and it does. There is always more funding available for things outside Dublin, and there are always national strategies. You're complaining that not enough water is being pushed uphill.

Twenty Grand · 23-04-2019 9:57am

Tell me how wrote: »

So lets have better urbanising around Sligo/Galway/Limerick/Cork/Waterford for a change rather than just focus on Dublin.

Easier said than done.

More people live in Leinster than the rest of the country combined.
1/4 of the population live in Dublin county.

Dublin has huge housing, traffic, sprawl issues, but so does Cork and Galway.
It's not like there's a utopia city with skilled workforce just waiting for MNC's to relocate.

By world standards, Dublin is still a tiny city and we should be well capable of solving all it's issues without the need to move elsewhere.

marvin80 · 23-04-2019 9:58am

The economy being centered around Dublin is a fact of life and not going to change anytime soon.

Be great to have jobs etc.. moving to other cities like Cork but it's not going to happen so we should look at other options.

How about high speed rail links - this would open massive parts of the country to commuting distance to Dublin. (seen this suggested on here before)

We'd also have to improve public transport around Dublin.

Cina · 23-04-2019 9:59am

Tell me how wrote: »

Apologies if I was wrong on the 900M I heard someone from DAA talking on Newstalk about it two weeks ago and am pretty sure she said they were making the 900M investment to drive economic activity for the country.

It's capacity would be fine, if Cork and Shannon were utilised to the extent which their facilities could currently handle.

If Dublin is at 100% and Shannon at, say 50% and Cork 60% (I'm not sure on specifics) why is the best course of action to expand Dublins capacity, and then continue to have people driving from Clare, Galway, Limerick, Cork etc to Dublin because that is the only place from which to get a suitable flight?

Your logic is really flawed there. If Shannon and Cork aren't at full capacity then there's absolutely no need to invest in them anyway. If Dublin is at full capacity then there is.

What's the point in investing more in airports that aren't even remotely at capacity over one that is?

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:01am

RayCun wrote: »

There seems to be several variations on the same question in this thread.

Why expand Dublin? Because that's where people want to live, want to work, want to fly from, want to be based.

Why not expand Shannon? Because people don't want to live there, work there, fly from there, be based there.

I mean Shannon airport is a prime example. The government spent decades trying to make Shannon airport a thing. Shannon airport is not a thing. It will never be a thing. There's simple economics of scale.

Let's say 1 million people live within an hour of Dublin airport, and half a million live within an hour of Shannon. There's another half a million you could go to either.

If you are an airline putting on flights to Berlin you'll think "okay, twice as many people live near Dublin, so we'll have twice as many flights from there". Makes sense, right?

Then the half a million people who could go to either, when they are looking for flights to Berlin, they see twice as many options from Dublin airport, so they are more likely to go there. Yes?

So now you have three times as many people going to Berlin via Dublin, so you have three times as many flights. And when airlines are deciding where to put administrative staff, they'll obviously put them in the place with more flights, and that's where more maintenance work will be carried out.

And then there are destinations that aren't viable at all from Shannon, but would be from Dublin, so people get a flight from Shannon to connect at Dublin to fly to Riga. And some people get that connecting flight to fly to Berlin because it works out easier, and so there is more demand for Dublin-Berlin flights and less demand for Shannon-Berlin flights, and so on, and so on.

One of my suggestions in relation to this recently was possibly to re-brand Shannon and Cork as Ireland International West and Ireland International South.
Maybe that will change peoples view of it. Maybe having better infrastrucutre from those airports would entice more to travel to them. Airlines will follow the money and their preference would be one airport where everyone travels to so it will take something to ignite use of the other airports.

I disagree with the whole Dublin is where people want to live, want to work etc as if it as an absolute fact.
People have to live and have to work in Dublin due to a poor national strategy and psyche over the last several years.

Ireland is small. I can go to a gig in the 3 Arena and get in to bed in the West coast by 01:30 if I want to. I can go to Croke Park and be home to watch the Sunday game.
This idea that only those who live in Dublin have access to it's amenities are false.
Sure, if I'm going to a gig once a week it is different, but how many do that?

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:02am

Cina wrote: »

Your logic is really flawed there. If Shannon and Cork aren't at full capacity then there's absolutely no need to invest in them anyway. If Dublin is at full capacity then there is.

What's the point in investing more in airports that aren't even remotely at capacity over one that is?

I never said investment equated to more building.
I meant investment in driving up passenger numbers, maybe advertising, branding, subsidising flights etc.

bnt · 23-04-2019 10:03am

I would happily move to another part of the country for work if (a) I received some assistance with relocation costs (which would not be a lot in my case) and (b) the job was guaranteed for at least five years or so.

The way the world of work is looking, with employers looking for "flexibility", the latter would be an impossible request. I would not want to find myself out of work a year from now in a small town that just lost its only significant employer, facing the prospect of moving back to Dublin just to find any paid work at all.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:04am

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Easier said than done.

More people live in Leinster than the rest of the country combined.
1/4 of the population live in Dublin county.

Dublin has huge housing, traffic, sprawl issues, but so does Cork and Galway.
It's not like there's a utopia city with skilled workforce just waiting for MNC's to relocate.

By world standards, Dublin is still a tiny city and we should be well capable of solving all it's issues without the need to move elsewhere.

Yes, but as a country the size of ours, this is not an ideal situation. This was Spillanes point on the LLS.

RayCun · 23-04-2019 10:10am

Tell me how wrote: »

One of my suggestions in relation to this recently was possibly to re-brand Shannon and Cork as Ireland International West and Ireland International South.

For decades, US flights were forced to stop in Shannon. If that wasn't enough to make it a success, I don't think rebranding will do the trick.

Tell me how wrote: »

I disagree with the whole Dublin is where people want to live, want to work etc as if it as an absolute fact.
People have to live and have to work in Dublin due to a poor national strategy and psyche over the last several years.

People weigh up the alternatives, and a lot of them choose Dublin and the surrounding area.

Tell me how wrote: »

Ireland is small. I can go to a gig in the 3 Arena and get in to bed in the West coast by 01:30 if I want to. I can go to Croke Park and be home to watch the Sunday game.
This idea that only those who live in Dublin have access to it's amenities are false.
Sure, if I'm going to a gig once a week it is different, but how many do that?

okay dokey then. Ireland is small, so there's no problem if everything is in Dublin.

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:13am

If its one thing that country people are Grade A at doing - it about whingeing that everything is in Dublin, and that they dont get their slice of the pie.

For my money - what this has resulted in actually is that Dublin doesnt get its slice of the pie.

Industry wants to be in Dublin; for very good reason. Because thats where they can get skilled people.

A tech or financial services company that sets up in a small rural town has no idea if it can get the skilled people it needs. Thats just a fact. They know in Dublin they can get those people.

So thats where the jobs are going, and thats why Dublin is growing so quickly.

Meanwhile though, government spending responds to all the shouting and roaring about how X/ Y/ Z town isnt get 'its slice of the pie'......Ballyhay, Ballyhoy and Ballyhop are getting nothing and why isnt the government doing anything about it.

All over Dublin I see crappy roads, crappy footpaths, crappy transport service, crappy amenities......way worse that what I see in country towns.

Why is that. Why isnt there more government investment in Dublin. Dublin people need to get out on the streets and start demanding more.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:16am

RayCun wrote: »

For decades, US flights were forced to stop in Shannon. If that wasn't enough to make it a success, I don't think rebranding will do the trick.

And it was very successful in that respect, but that day has obviously passed.
That doesn't mean that the facilities which are there could not be better utilised in the national interest (I'm cringing myself a bit as I use that phrase)

RayCun wrote: »

People weigh up the alternatives, and a lot of them choose Dublin and the surrounding area.

Really? The whole having to travel there for work isn't a massive factor?

RayCun wrote: »

okay dokey then. Ireland is small, so there's no problem if everything is in Dublin.

Sure, if you can figure out a way to get house prices to a reasonable level and not have excessive times when commuting for work while still having real communities in the rest of the country.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:19am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

If its one thing that country people are Grade A at doing - it about whingeing that everything is in Dublin, and that they dont get their slice of the pie.

For my money - what this has resulted in actually is that Dublin doesnt get its slice of the pie.

Industry wants to be in Dublin; for very good reason. Because thats where they can get skilled people.

A tech or financial services company that sets up in a small rural town has no idea if it can get the skilled people it needs. Thats just a fact. They know in Dublin they can get those people.

So thats where the jobs are going, and thats why Dublin is growing so quickly.

Meanwhile though, government spending responds to all the shouting and roaring about how X/ Y/ Z town isnt get 'its slice of the pie'......Ballyhay, Ballyhoy and Ballyhop are getting nothing and why isnt the government doing anything about it.

All over Dublin I see crappy roads, crappy footpaths, crappy transport service, crappy amenities......way worse that what I see in country towns.

Why is that. Why isnt there more government investment in Dublin. Dublin people need to get out on the streets and start demanding more.

I've responded to a lot of logical posts on this thread.
I'm going to give this one a miss.

salmocab · 23-04-2019 10:19am

Getting companies to set up outside Dublin is difficult for s few reasons but one that I haven’t seen mentioned is that it’s hard enough to get staff but your also struggling with jobs in the area for partners of the staff. I think it’s unrealistic to think that new urban areas will take off. A better strategy for me would be to take a two prong approach with sorting Dublin’s public transport issues which would allow the people in the commuter counties have a better quality of life involving less travel time and also concentrating on Cork, getting its issues with transport sorted as it already has the people and jobs to get things going.

mariaalice · 23-04-2019 10:26am

These things have to happen organically, they can't be forced by goverement policy its just tinkering, you could have a massive tax free development zone somewhere and it would attract economic activity but be very controversial, however, the decision maker and those with the power wont be moving where ever the tax free zone is.

It the same with goveremetn deprtment the minister is in Dublin hence the power is in Dublin.

How many Mitchlen stared restaurants are in Dublin verse the rest of the country or other top class cultural activities and venues are outside Dublin and Cork.

Its a bit like the economist saying its hard to distinguish and pinpoint between trends and a longterm fundamental change.

The world is urbanising while Government policy will only have a small effect on that.

Twenty Grand · 23-04-2019 10:27am

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes, but as a country the size of ours, this is not an ideal situation. This was Spillanes point on the LLS.

I don't see why though.

If the ENTIRE population lived in Dublin, we still wouldn't in the top 50 by population, and theres no reason the entire population couldn't live there, provided the infrastructure was built.

There's no basis IMO for having an even spread of people around an arbitrary area.

I know I'm talking hypotheticals, but I can't agree with what he said.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:33am

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I don't see why though.

If the ENTIRE population lived in Dublin, we still wouldn't in the top 50 by population, and theres no reason the entire population couldn't live there, provided the infrastructure was built.

There's no basis IMO for having an even spread of people around an arbitrary area.

I know I'm talking hypotheticals, but I can't agree with what he said.

I think it is more to do with the societal implications rather than the simple mechanics of providing services.

There will always be some people living in areas other than Dublin, do we want sustainable vibrant communities here or decrepit towns and villages where people only come back to at the weekend if at all.

Because, if these communities, continue to dwindle then we will see less and less investment in them meaning they will continue on a downward spiral. So, do we just abandon large swathes of the country as being not worth maintaining?

Again, you might say so be it if everyone living or working in Dublin was enjoying a satisfactory standard of living but the evidence does not support this with many feeling that they have neither a quality of life or opportunity to change it.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:37am

salmocab wrote: »

Getting companies to set up outside Dublin is difficult for s few reasons but one that I haven’t seen mentioned is that it’s hard enough to get staff but your also struggling with jobs in the area for partners of the staff. I think it’s unrealistic to think that new urban areas will take off. A better strategy for me would be to take a two prong approach with sorting Dublin’s public transport issues which would allow the people in the commuter counties have a better quality of life involving less travel time and also concentrating on Cork, getting its issues with transport sorted as it already has the people and jobs to get things going.

I'm not advocating new urban areas, I am advocating optimising those which we do have until we have a more even spread of the population throughout the regions with must people still being located in urban areas.

I'm not suggesting that we have as many living in Munster as Dublin but that we get the proportion of the population in Dublin down from the 35% it is to ideally closer to 25% or even 20%.

Not something which will happen within even 20 years though so there needs to be long term strategies.

mariaalice · 23-04-2019 10:37am

Another thing that is happening which is interesting is : Say 40 years ago consultants, surgeons, top lawyers ect and the like would have lived near the hospitals and bussiness they served something which generated its own energy and economic activeity.

Today becaue of better transprot and the internet etc its possibel to take a job in Limerick or Sligo and live in Dublin and go down a few days a week to work but not live in the area its a huge trend and that affects an area a lot even though its hard to pin down.

rgodard80a · 23-04-2019 10:39am

Existing companies won't move out of Dublin if staff retention/hiring is tough for them. I worked for a company that moved out of the city centre and lost 25% of its staff within 3 years despite throwing retention bonuses at them.
Definitely hurt them.

So any attempt to "move" companies out of Dublin will have to target new companies and set up incubator/development hubs.
I know the likes of Dundalk I.T. has a development hub to help small startups.
Some companies are setting up in Maynooth.
I've seen companies advertising in Navan, Kells, Cherrywood and Drogheda too.

Some probably driven out of Dublin city centre by commercial rental prices, others probably because the company founder lived nearby.
So I can see definite move to catch people along the borders of the Dublin commuter belt.

But any company wanting an international presence will want to be based near enough to an airport.

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:39am

Tell me how wrote: »

I've responded to a lot of logical posts on this thread.
I'm going to give this one a miss.

My post is logical.

If you have no answer then that speaks for itself.

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:40am

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not advocating new urban areas, I am advocating optimising those which we do have until we have a more even spread of the population throughout the regions with must people still being located in urban areas.

I'm not suggesting that we have as many living in Munster as Dublin but that we get the proportion of the population in Dublin down from the 35% it is to ideally closer to 25% or even 20%.

Not something which will happen within even 20 years though so there needs to be long term strategies.

Could you be any more vague?

This is Brexit thinking - fantasy objectives, and no idea of how to get there.

Yurt2 · 23-04-2019 10:40am

Read an interesting snippet in a recent Brexit article. The average purchasing power of a Belfast resident is 25% higher than a Dublin resident. This despite the fact they are in a much weaker economy and are paid lower wages. The cost of living when it comes to groceries, rent, transport, restaurants, mortgage repayments and even the price of a pint in Dublin is hammering people - and probably contributes to the sour puss many people have on their heads going around the place. And all the while they have themselves convinced they have it better than the likes of Belfast. I'm not entirely convinced we're getting things right in Dublin.

Alarm bells started ringing for me when I went to Paris for a long weekend a while back, and I actually found the price of almost everything more reasonable than Dublin.

mariaalice · 23-04-2019 10:42am

rgodard80a wrote: »

Existing companies won't move out of Dublin if staff retention/hiring is tough for them. I worked for a company that moved out of the city centre and lost 25% of its staff within 3 years despite throwing retention bonuses at them.
Definitely hurt them.

So any attempt to "move" companies out of Dublin will have to target new companies and set up incubator/development hubs.
I know the likes of Dundalk I.T. has a development hub to help small startups.
Some companies are setting up in Maynooth.
I've seen companies advertising in Navan, Kells, Cherrywood and Drogheda too.

Some probably driven out of Dublin city centre by commercial rental prices, others probably because the company founder lived nearby.
So I can see definite move to catch people along the borders of the Dublin commuter belt.

But any company wanting an international presence will want to be based near enough to an airport.

Dundalk Maynooth Navan Kells Cherrywood and Drogheda are the enviorns of Dublin.

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:45am

mariaalice wrote: »

Dundalk Maynooth Navan Kells Cherrywood and Drogheda are the enviorns of Dublin.

Dundalk less so; the others yes.

Key difference for Dundalk is that you pay a toll to get there, which makes daily commute to / from Dublin more expensive.

Plus its further. Newry is almost as commutable to Dublin as Dundalk. Distance wise its not much further. (And I wouldnt have thought Newry was commutable).

Twenty Grand · 23-04-2019 10:46am

Tell me how wrote: »

I think it is more to do with the societal implications rather than the simple mechanics of providing services.

There will always be some people living in areas other than Dublin, do we want sustainable vibrant communities here or decrepit towns and villages where people only come back to at the weekend if at all.

Because, if these communities, continue to dwindle then we will see less and less investment in them meaning they will continue on a downward spiral. So, do we just abandon large swathes of the country as being not worth maintaining?

Again, you might say so be it if everyone living or working in Dublin was enjoying a satisfactory standard of living but the evidence does not support this with many feeling that they have neither a quality of life or opportunity to change it.

You're dead right, but when have societal values ever won out when it comes to capitalism.
I foresee more rural decline and more urbanisation centred around Dublin and to a lesser extent Cork and Galway.

Tell me how · 23-04-2019 10:47am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Could you be any more vague?

This is Brexit thinking - fantasy objectives, and no idea of how to get there.

Any chance you'd read the thread or do you want me to put everything I and others have said in to each and every post?

Nikki Sixx · 23-04-2019 10:48am

Cork isn’t far behind Dublin. Rents are crazy here, people can’t find places to live. Workers from abroad keep flying in to work for Apple, Amazon and the like. Not much building going on to meet the demand for housing. Cork is becoming Dublin on a lesser scale.

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:49am

Yurt! wrote: »

Read an interesting snippet in a recent Brexit article. The average purchasing power of a Belfast resident is 25% higher than a Dublin resident. This despite the fact they are in a much weaker economy and are paid lower wages. The cost of living when it comes to groceries, rent, transport, restaurants, mortgage repayments and even the price of a pint in Dublin is hammering people - and probably contributes to the sour puss many people have on their heads going around the place. And all the while they have themselves convinced they have it better than the likes of Belfast. I'm not entirely convinced we're getting things right in Dublin.

Alarm bells started ringing for me when I went to Paris for a long weekend a while back, and I actually found the price of almost everything more reasonable than Dublin.

(i) Everyone knows that Belfast is propped up by government spending from the UK. Civil service is a massive employer there.
(ii) French unemployment is nearly double that of ireland, and wages are lower. With that in mind - why exactly should Paris not be cheaper than Dublin.
(iii) If the cost of restaurants/ pubs/ rent transport is hammering people in Dublin - then why are restaurants jammed and queues out the door for apartments. Clearly enough plenty of people can afford it. If they couldnt, then rents would fall and restaurants would close.

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:50am

Tell me how wrote: »

Any chance you'd read the thread or do you want me to put everything I and others have said in to each and every post?

As I said, fantasy objectives - "there needs to be a long term strategy".....really, genius idea.

mariaalice · 23-04-2019 10:51am

You cant make or force vibrant sustainable communities by goeverment policy they have to happen organicily, fundementaly they come about because of people.

suicide_circus · 23-04-2019 10:52am

are there any international examples we could look at? any small countries which were centred around one city that successfully managed to reverse it or at least go some way to balancing it?

Tombo2001 · 23-04-2019 10:54am

suicide_circus wrote: »

are there any international examples we could look at? any small countries which were centred around one city that successfully managed to reverse it or at least go some way to balancing it?

The Irish situation is unique.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-mcwilliams-expansion-of-the-middle-class-is-ireland-s-biggest-feat-1.3865046?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fdavid-mcwilliams-expansion-of-the-middle-class-is-ireland-s-biggest-feat-1.3865046

RayCun · 23-04-2019 10:55am

Tell me how wrote: »

There will always be some people living in areas other than Dublin, do we want sustainable vibrant communities here or decrepit towns and villages where people only come back to at the weekend if at all.

The model of rural population we had in Ireland was based on farm labour.

If you had a town of 1000 people, and 200 worked on farms, that was a base on which other local employment rested - shops and other local services. Plus people were less mobile, doing their weekly shopping in the village and going to bigger towns for special occasions.

If you want Ireland to go back to a larger proportion living in small towns, you have to reckon with the shrinking of the sector that provided most rural employment, and the fact that people will hop in a car to go to a supermarket or to the medical centre in the next town for the weekly shop so local shops and services are going to shrink too.

Our economy being too centered around Dublin.

Comments