Ionity charging network

Casati · 15-08-2018 9:16am

unkel wrote: »

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)[/quote

59 cent would be expensive but for the rare long distance journey where you can’t charge at home I guess EV owners won’t mind even paying a euro if they could charge quickly and not have to queue etc

unkel · 15-08-2018 9:17am

I beat you to it with the paying a euro

ted1 · 15-08-2018 11:03am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

ted1 · 15-08-2018 11:03am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

Casati · 15-08-2018 11:20am

ted1 wrote: »

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

The only thing is that no matter how affluent the e.v driver is they can only drink so many coffee’s in the time they are there - they would have to buy as much food or shop stuff as say 5 or 10 pump customers to match the revenue and profit per pump. Equally if they price it too high then the infrastructure won’t be used at all!

I’d say it’s extremely risky going into this business for them with EV’s coming with such long range that you’d never dream of charging anywhere but at home, so unlike petrol / diesel users it’s v difficult to predict potential demand.

FriendsEV · 15-08-2018 11:23am

ted1 wrote: »

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

Going to take a while to get that 70k charger cost back at 2c profit

bp_me · 15-08-2018 11:42am

Casati wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)[/quote

59 cent would be expensive but for the rare long distance journey where you can’t charge at home I guess EV owners won’t mind even paying a euro if they could charge quickly and not have to queue etc

According to this article https://www.electrive.com/2018/06/23/norway-fortum-doubles-prices-for-fast-charging/ Fortum are charging 42c per minute in Norway though it had been 26c per minute.

unkel · 15-08-2018 11:44am

And they are going to compete with the free public charging system

I've no doubt about it, there is going to be a hefty premium to pay. Not 10% more than domestic rates, more like 1000% more than domestic rates. I've no problems with that

The only alleviating factor here is that it is a consortium interested in promoting their cars. Not so much set out to make maximum revenue / profit from this charging opportunity. Ionity 2018 is almost as forward thinking as the free for life Tesla Supercharger 2012 system

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 12:02pm

unkel wrote: »

And they are going to compete with the free public charging system

I've no doubt about it, there is going to be a hefty premium to pay. Not 10% more than domestic rates, more like 1000% more than domestic rates. I've no problems with that

The only alleviating factor here is that it is a consortium interested in promoting their cars. Not so much set out to make maximum revenue / profit from this charging opportunity. Ionity 2018 is almost as forward thinking as the free for life Tesla Supercharger 2012 system

If they work, are fast and not blocked I have no problem paying a premium

Hopefully they implement a system so if people do overstay their welcome they get a fairly hefty fine

jusmeig · 22-08-2018 10:33pm

Any update on when they are actually being built!?

thelikelylad · 28-08-2018 4:08pm

New application submitted for Cashel: http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18601043/0

Decision Due Date: 18/10/2018

uphillonly · 28-08-2018 4:22pm

thelikelylad wrote: »

New application submitted for Cashel: http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18601043/0

Decision Due Date: 18/10/2018

Thanks. Great to see it in writing: 'High Power Electric Vehicle Charging Station consisting of: (i) Installation of 6 no. electric vehicle charging bays...'

There's already an e-cars fast charge at that location so some direct competition and an addition from drivers point of view.

I don't do regular cross country driving but it looks a reasonable location for the first Ionity station, between cities for the longer drives.

liamog · 28-08-2018 6:24pm

They must have been reading boards, it's a perfect location for all the Dublin Cork return journeys in an Ioniq.

Cashel -> Cork -> Cashel is 185km.

Orebro · 28-08-2018 7:01pm

liamog wrote: »

They must have been reading boards, it's a perfect location for all the Dublin Cork return journeys in an Ioniq.

Cashel -> Cork -> Cashel is 185km.

I have serious Ioniq want now :-)

ei9go · 28-08-2018 7:38pm

liamog wrote: »

They must have been reading boards, it's a perfect location for all the Dublin Cork return journeys in an Ioniq.

Cashel -> Cork -> Cashel is 185km.

Yes but Dublin to Cashel is 167 km. Will the Ioniq get there on the motorway in winter or bad weather?

ei9go · 28-08-2018 7:40pm

thelikelylad wrote: »

New application submitted for Cashel: http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18601043/0

Decision Due Date: 18/10/2018

Notice the charger part of the application is marker "Incompleted".

Does that mean they have not decided or is the application incomplete?

liamog · 28-08-2018 8:03pm

ei9go wrote: »

Yes but Dublin to Cashel is 167 km. Will the Ioniq get there on the motorway in winter or bad weather?

Yep, that's the easy part of the trip, you wouldn't risk it now with only one rapid in Cashel but if there was 6, I would.

JohnnyJohnJohns · 28-08-2018 9:38pm

I'm assuming they'll put a station at the Obama plaza as it's the only Circle K services on the M7 and has no FCP as it is. Good location for Ioniq and Leaf 2018.

If that's the case I wouldn't consider the Niro worth the upgrade costs.

liamog · 28-08-2018 9:44pm

JohnnyJohnJohns wrote: »

I'm assuming they'll put a station at the Obama plaza as it's the only Circle K services on the M7 and has no FCP as it is. Good location for Ioniq and Leaf 2018.

One thing to be aware of, Ionity is CCS only, they are basically being installed by the CCS industry group.

JohnnyJohnJohns · 28-08-2018 9:52pm

liamog wrote: »

One thing to be aware of, Ionity is CCS only, they are basically being installed by the CCS industry group.

Forgot about that, then it'd be perfect for the Ioniq at least!

unkel · 29-08-2018 12:03am

Cashel is an excellent location. You could make it from Dublin to say Schull (350km) with one charge in Ioniq

I've never been to west Cork. Always wanted to go to west Cork and once this 6 bay charger is there I can, without having to worry about broken chargers or queuing up behind a bunch of cars going to take at least an hour each with all the family onboard. When can we expect this one to be up and running realistically?

ELM327 · 29-08-2018 7:40am

unkel wrote: »

Cashel is an excellent location. You could make it from Dublin to say Schull (350km) with one charge in Ioniq

I've never been to west Cork. Always wanted to go to west Cork and once this 6 bay charger is there I can, without having to worry about broken chargers or queuing up behind a bunch of cars going to take at least an hour each with all the family onboard. When can we expect this one to be up and running realistically?

Unless you get 6 slow charging i pace or kona ahead of you

unkel · 29-08-2018 9:52am

Highly unlikely in the next few years. And even when so, then it is quite likely one of the 6 that are charging is about to leave and you're next. Even with 12 ahead of you it will take no more than an hour. And that's probably worst case scenario mid 2020. Both have enough range to rarely / never have to stop for an expensive Ionity charge. Leaving them all for us

The Leaf 40 is selling like hotcakes. Imagine arriving at a public fast charger with 6 of them ahead of you. Might as well book a hotel so...

ELM327 · 29-08-2018 9:56am

unkel wrote: »

Highly unlikely in the next few years. And even when so, then it is quite likely one of the 6 that are charging is about to leave and you're next. Even with 12 ahead of you it will take no more than an hour. And that's probably worst case scenario mid 2020. Both have enough range to rarely / never have to stop for an expensive Ionity charge. Leaving them all for us

The Leaf 40 is selling like hotcakes. Imagine arriving at a public fast charger with 6 of them ahead of you. Might as well book a hotel so...

I was only kidding.
A CCS only charger (even with one charger only) would be welcome as it means most slow charging EVs cant use it.
6 of them means reliable available charging en route and that is very much welcome.

bp_me · 29-08-2018 10:35am

Drawings are now uploaded. Chargers placed far away from pumps and at furthest point in the car park from the buildings.

ELM327 · 29-08-2018 10:47am

bp_me wrote: »

Drawings are now uploaded. Chargers placed far away from pumps and at furthest point in the car park from the buildings.

The way they should be. Like Tesla in Ballacolla.

unkel · 29-08-2018 11:02am

ELM327 wrote: »

The way they should be. Like Tesla in Ballacolla.

All it takes is one imbecile though

Took this myself at Ballacolla not long after the Tesla superchargers opened...

Orebro · 29-08-2018 11:23am

This is seriously fantastic news and it makes a trip from Dublin to Cork a pleasant experience with an Ioniq and other CCS cars. Imagine sitting in the 6 bay charging away at 70kw (or higher?), waving at the other mugs queuing on the single free charger hoping nobody with #rapidgate disease arrives (not taking a cheap shot, this is the reality of the public free network at the moment). I would gladly pay the 10/20 whatever euro for this EV utopia.

Also agree - even in the unlikely event all 6 are in use when you get there you'd very likely only be waiting a few mins max for one to free up.

And unkel get yourself to West Cork man - no better place for a summer vacation.

Orebro · 29-08-2018 11:26am

bp_me wrote: »

Drawings are now uploaded. Chargers placed far away from pumps and at furthest point in the car park from the buildings.

Also great news - I wish all chargepoints were like this - furthest reaches of the carpark as possible.

KCross · 29-08-2018 12:17pm

unkel wrote: »

When can we expect this one to be up and running realistically?

The planning decision is due 18 Oct.
I presume site works could proceed at that point if granted. I'd imagine the long pole item here will be getting the ESB to do their bit as, according to the planning submission, it requires a new MV substation to support it.

That's not a "run a few wires" type thing!

I doubt they'd get it operational this year but maybe early next? Depends really on whether they have contractors and ESB lined up or not.

Note, they already submitted this application a month ago and it was rejected as an "incomplete application". That usually just means they didn't have all the paperwork in order so any technicalities could push it out again. Maybe a rare snail around there somewhere!

ELM327 · 29-08-2018 12:22pm

So is this the first location to come on stream, didnt they have a number of planning permissions?

unkel · 29-08-2018 1:01pm

KCross wrote: »

I doubt they'd get it operational this year but maybe early next?

By early summer next year would do me

But of course the sooner the better. Unfortunately the Monasterevin and Gormanstown locations are not great for Dublin area based EVs. Too close to Dublin.

JohnnyJohnJohns · 30-08-2018 12:28pm

unkel wrote: »

By early summer next year would do me

But of course the sooner the better. Unfortunately the Monasterevin and Gormanstown locations are not great for Dublin area based EVs. Too close to Dublin.

Is monasterevin a definite? It seems strange given Ionity is being rolled out through Circle K in Ireland. The only reference I see to it is from The Times but it would seem like an odd location given there is a Circle K better located on the M7.

Soarer · 30-08-2018 12:36pm

unkel wrote: »

By early summer next year would do me

But of course the sooner the better. Unfortunately the Monasterevin and Gormanstown locations are not great for Dublin area based EVs. Too close to Dublin.

I'm assuming these are for the Cork-Dublin-Cork brigade, similar to Cashel being for the Dublin-Cork-Dublin shower?

patsryan · 30-08-2018 12:51pm

JohnnyJohnJohns wrote: »

Is monasterevin a definite? It seems strange given Ionity is being rolled out through Circle K in Ireland. The only reference I see to it is from The Times but it would seem like an odd location given there is a Circle K better located on the M7.

Nothing is definite until its built! There is only one planning application (so far) by Ionity for chargers and thats in Cashel.

The map that leaked originally showed 9 locations across the country near

Limerick
Cork
Waterford
Dublin
Dundalk
Galway
Sligo
Derry
Belfast

Dardania · 30-08-2018 1:24pm

It's a shame they don't show here: http://www.ionity.eu/locations/

Shefwedfan · 30-08-2018 2:29pm

Dardania wrote: »

It's a shame they don't show here: http://www.ionity.eu/locations/

Unless they have planning they can't really show locations......

unkel · 30-08-2018 3:16pm

Wasn't aware the only real planning application was for Cashel.

Perhaps the 9 original dots were just showing the biggest population centres and they are meaningless when it comes to where the actual chargers will be?

I sure hope so, we need the chargers on main motorways / national roads. Not in cities.

liamog · 30-08-2018 3:23pm

Somewhere between Newry and Sprucefield would be ideal ...

unkel · 30-08-2018 3:34pm

liamog wrote: »

Somewhere between Newry and Sprucefield would be ideal ...

Ideal for Ioniqs based in Dublin alright

Shefwedfan · 30-08-2018 3:37pm

unkel wrote: »

Wasn't aware the only real planning application was for Cashel.

Perhaps the 9 original dots were just showing the biggest population centres and they are meaningless when it comes to where the actual chargers will be?

I sure hope so, we need the chargers on main motorways / national roads. Not in cities.

Charger in cities or town(e.g. Navan) just become a second home charger

Then when someone who really needs it arrives, it is blocked

Orebro · 30-08-2018 7:40pm

No way they're going to put these in towns and cities - the most money is to be made from people looking for a charge or two on a long journey. Cities and towns means they are too close to homes where leccy is dirt cheap.

unkel · 30-08-2018 9:26pm

And I hope they are expensive

irishgrover · 30-08-2018 10:12pm

unkel wrote:

And I hope they are expensive

Again, relax with the hopes of exorbitant charging :-) They just need to be more expensive than home charging to stop the locals from using them unnecessarily......

McGiver · 30-08-2018 10:26pm

Sorry folks if it was already discussed.

How do you think Nissan will react to this?

Why having two competing quick charger sockets/standards? Not counting Tesla alright.

CCS is Euroamerican and Chademo is essentially Japanese. It makes no sense to maintain a Japanese standard in Europe (and the US) while competing with the local standard with much stronger backing.

Either expand Chademo in Asia and Australia but switch to CCS in cars for for EU and US market or propose merger and/or interoperability of both standards. The current situation is unsustainable.

Also next year's Leaf battery is too large for standard Chademo. They will need to act quickly.

unkel · 31-08-2018 12:25am

McGiver wrote: »

How do you think Nissan will react to this?

I expect Nissan Ireland to do nothing. I'd go one step further: I expect many / most / all of the local Nissan dealer FCP to die out over time, not to be repaired and not to be replaced with new faster ones. Nissan EVs in Ireland will all have CCS only charging from the next generation. Hell Nissan might even want to join Ionity

KCross · 31-08-2018 11:00am

unkel wrote: »

Nissan EVs in Ireland will all have CCS only charging from the next generation.

If that happens then I'd agree ChaDeMo would clearly be dead in this country then but they are not making any noises in that direction and they seem to be actively testing their ChaDeMo V2G tech in the UK and increasing speeds to 100kW.

I just cant see them moving away from ChaDeMo unless their hand is forced somehow and if they did they would alienate their existing customers in UK/Ireland and US. Not something they will do lightly and I doubt they would retrofit CCS.

Its hard to predict the market because it aint moving as fast as we'd like it to.

KCross · 31-08-2018 11:08am

McGiver wrote: »

Either expand Chademo in Asia and Australia but switch to CCS in cars for for EU and US market or propose merger and/or interoperability of both standards. The current situation is unsustainable.

Ultimately its just an extra lead on the charger. Its not that big an issue.

McGiver wrote: »

Also next year's Leaf battery is too large for standard Chademo.

Why? The current ChaDeMo standard supports 150kW, I think. You just need to install the chargers. Not likely to happen here in the medium term though as eCars have only tendered for 50kW chargers.

You can still charge a 60kWh Leaf on a 50kW existing charger though. If they get the active cooling right this time it would be OK even for long distance.

unkel · 31-08-2018 11:08am

KCross wrote: »

they are not making any noises in that direction and they seem to be actively testing their ChaDeMo V2G tech in the UK and increasing speeds to 100kW.

I just cant see them moving away from ChaDeMo unless their hand is forced somehow

Agreed, Nissan mightn't change to CCS if they are not forced, but the Leaf already is the only EV you can buy in this country with CHAdeMO. It is an obsolete charging standard.

Personally I have no confidence in the public sector keeping the public charging network up with the increase in EV use. If I had a CHAdeMO car and needed regular public charging, I'd be worried for what the next few years would bring.

Soarer · 31-08-2018 11:17am

Don't think Chademo is dead just yet.

China and Japan in Chademo love-in

Ionity charging network

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