Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

Stephen15 · 20-04-2019 4:12pm

thomasj wrote: »

And yet the best option for combatting this , the BRTs, has been rejected in favour of a smaller less capacity bus , that let's be honest may run into this same problem as the VTs down the road

The BRTs didn't really go far enough and only served a few corridors.

Stephen15 · 20-04-2019 4:21pm

thomasj wrote: »

And yet the best option for combatting this , the BRTs, has been rejected in favour of a smaller less capacity bus , that let's be honest may run into this same problem as the VTs down the road

Not really as a bendybus with boarding at all three or four doors isn't going to have problems with an unevenly distributed load with crowding up around the driver. The idea of the BRT would that it would operate like a train or a tram but as a bus.

thomasj · 20-04-2019 4:30pm

Stephen15 wrote:

The BRTs didn't really go far enough and only served a few corridors.

But with the focus on network direct so much on improving the infrastructure BRTs could have been put on more routes.

thomasj · 20-04-2019 4:32pm

Stephen15 wrote:

Not really as a bendybus with boarding at all three or four doors isn't going to have problems with an unevenly distributed load with crowding up around the driver. The idea of the BRT would that it would operate like a train or a tram but as a bus.

Sorry if my post was badly put but that was exactly my point.

Charles Babbage · 20-04-2019 5:11pm

devnull wrote: »

The rate that it happens on the VTs in my experience is far higher than it operates on other vehicles as the vehicle layout promotes it. It also happens downstairs on the VTs as well, not to the same degree it does upstairs I grant you, but it us very rare for it to happen on a regular bus downstairs.

Maybe you need an electronic display showing how many seats are free upstairs? Either put a sensor on the seat or have a counter up and down?

punisher5112 · 20-04-2019 5:13pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Maybe you need an electronic display showing how many seats are free upstairs? Either put a sensor on the seat or have a counter up and down?

GT and sg have a monitor.

Stephen15 · 20-04-2019 5:36pm

One thing I've noticed on buses on the continent is that there isn't a white line at the front of the bus around the driver. The assault screen wraps around the windscreen so as standing passengers are not blocking the drivers view. This means you can have standing passengers right up to the front doors meaning extra room to fit more on standing.

This would probably be too much work for a retrofit but could be considered for future deliveries. Obivously something would have to be done to prevent people crowding around the doors and they would use this option if there was no other space.

Most buses on the continent and in London have the wheelchair ramp at the middle doors which makes things easier for wheelchair to access the wheelchair space without having to use the aisle. On a London bus the wheelchair space is located on the drivers side where the buggy space would be on a DB bus while the buggy space is located where the wheelchair would be along with two seats.

AlekSmart · 25-04-2019 6:27am

Interesting to note,that whilst the NTA proceed with restraint,it's Singaporean counterpart pushes the boat out just a tad.....

https://landtransportguru.net/three-door-double-decker-buses-procured-by-lta/?fbclid=IwAR1bLAGmeNZJAlMuf5CYcu2WxmTHxjfZOEUoms5IVo9Hu8rx7oeljoLwYBc

With some questions beginning to be heard regarding the Wrights/Volvo relationship,and the arrival of fresh Bodybuilding talent like MCV,perhaps the NTA should get a bit adventureous now ?

bk · 25-04-2019 2:21pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting to note,that whilst the NTA proceed with restraint,it's Singaporean counterpart pushes the boat out just a tad.....

https://landtransportguru.net/three-door-double-decker-buses-procured-by-lta/?fbclid=IwAR1bLAGmeNZJAlMuf5CYcu2WxmTHxjfZOEUoms5IVo9Hu8rx7oeljoLwYBc

Looks fantastic, three doors and two stairs, like the buses in Berlin. Would be quiet radical for us!

I can't tell from the article if they are hybrids or not? Could be an issue for us.

The comment under the article is interesting:

Hi! I think they should not just order single or double decker buses with 3 doors but more articulated with 4 doors. And better…… Double-articulated as to upgrade the seating capacity.

3 doors not even enough for them, shows how far behind we are in this regard.

AlekSmart · 25-04-2019 4:57pm

bk wrote: »

Looks fantastic, three doors and two stairs, like the buses in Berlin. Would be quiet radical for us!

I can't tell from the article if they are hybrids or not? Could be an issue for us.

The comment under the article is interesting:

3 doors not even enough for them, shows how far behind we are in this regard.

The vehicles are Euro 6 spec to begin with,with potential for Hybrid versions when the Singaporean LTA have completed their emissions related trials.

bk · 25-04-2019 6:30pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The vehicles are Euro 6 spec to begin with,with potential for Hybrid versions when the Singaporean LTA have completed their emissions related trials.

Sure, it is a given that all new buses and coaches are now Euro 6. The issue is are they also hybrid? The NTA have said no more Diesel only Euro 6's from mid this year. So unless these can come as hybrid, they are a non starter here unfortunately.

All the new Euro 6 Tri-axles that have appeared recently seem to be Diesel only. Of course hybrid is possible, but no evidence yet of any in production.

Stephen15 · 25-04-2019 7:09pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, it is a given that all new buses and coaches are now Euro 6. The issue is are they also hybrid? The NTA have said no more Diesel only Euro 6's from mid this year. So unless these can come as hybrid, they are a non starter here unfortunately.

All the new Euro 6 Tri-axles that have appeared recently seem to be Diesel only. Of course hybrid is possible, but no evidence yet of any in production.

I think Alek pointed out that a Euro 6 model could be done easily in a hybrid spec. The likes of the Wright Streetdeck, Volvo B5TL/B5LH and ADL Enviro 400MMC are all available in both Euro 6 and hybrid spec so I dont see why a tri-axle would be any different.

The 07 VTs should be withdrawn sometime next year so it's likely that a hybrid tri-axle will be on the market between now and then.

thomasj · 25-04-2019 8:17pm

Just on a VT on a 39a now , the one 20 minutes before (an SG) flew past full. All seats upstairs taken, aboit 25 downstairs standing. This is at 8pm.

There were also people standing upstairs and the driver had to turn off the engine and get them to come down.

dfx- · 26-04-2019 12:36am

When you were waiting for the VT, what did you hope was going to show up - a GT, SG or a VT? Which maximised your chance of being on board?

thomasj · 26-04-2019 1:41am

dfx- wrote:

When you were waiting for the VT, what did you hope was going to show up - a GT, SG or a VT? Which maximised your chance of being on board?

Yeah it was a VT and we were lucky it was. If it was an SG (like the one ahead that flew past full, there wouldn't have been a hope of the bus stopping to let us on.

punisher5112 · 26-04-2019 10:12am

Best bus we ever had and a joy to drive....

You knew where it was and going where as the sg gives no feedback.

Really miss the roar from acceleration and the change down with the retarder.....

thomasj · 26-04-2019 10:19am

I'm dreading thinking how much a nightmare the 39A may become once remaining VTs are removed from service

Awful mistake thinking the SGs could do a better job than BRT

dfx- · 26-04-2019 12:41pm

thomasj wrote: »

I'm dreading thinking how much a nightmare the 39A may become once remaining VTs are removed from service

Awful mistake thinking the SGs could do a better job than BRT

But we've just spent a lot of money buying 560 of them new and likely more so there's no way out of it.

I'd stock up on podcasts or audiobooks for the wait to squeeze on..

thomasj · 26-04-2019 1:00pm

Stephen15 wrote:

The 07 VTs should be withdrawn sometime next year so it's likely that a hybrid tri-axle will be on the market between now and then.

Here's hoping so.

Stephen15 · 26-04-2019 1:43pm

dfx- wrote: »

But we've just spent a lot of money buying 560 of them new and likely more so there's no way out of it.

I'd stock up on podcasts or audiobooks for the wait to squeeze on..

Close to 600 when you include the ones GAI got new.

I don't your issue with buying so many Gemini 3s to replace a similar number of ALX400s when both carry the same capacity well actually an SG can take more officially.

Also a different class of hybrid buses will replace SGs as the NTAs bus of choice what that bus will be is unclear right but its between the Wright Streetdeck, Volvo B5LH and the hybrid ADL Enviro 400MMC.

I can somewhat see your issue with replacing VTs but so far only 20 2005 VTs were replaced with a larger quantity of SGs. We'll have to wait and see what the NTA will do in a years time when the 07 VTs are due for withdrawal.

dfx- · 26-04-2019 3:49pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't your issue with buying so many Gemini 3s to replace a similar number of ALX400s when both carry the same capacity well actually an SG can take more officially.

Because we're still buying the same bus in 2019 as we were in 2014 and arguably 2012 with the GTs.

I'm going to guess there has been an increase in demand in those seven years.

You can be sure what they'll do when the 07s go, they'll throw more costly SGs at the problem. Fleet uniformity...

bk · 26-04-2019 4:03pm

dfx- wrote: »

Because we're still buying the same bus in 2019 as we were in 2014 and arguably 2012 with the GTs in terms of capacity.

I'm going to guess there has been an increase in demand in those seven years.

You can be sure what they'll do when the 07s go, they'll throw more costly SGs at the problem. Fleet uniformity...

It isn't about fleet uniformity, after all they have bought over a hundred single decker streetlites.

The issue was that until about 6 months ago, there were no Euro 6 tri-axles. And for environmental reasons they wouldn't buy any new bus that wasn't a Euro 6.

Yes, now in the last few months, a few Euro 6 models have hit the market. Great, but a bit too late as the NTA now say no more Diesel onlys. So unless we see some hybrid or perhaps hydrogen or gas tri-axles, then they wont be ordered.

With these sort of things, there are always different perspectives and priorities for the different people involved. Their is the driver perspective, passenger, DB management, NTA/government perspective and they all aren't the same.

Drivers mostly care about power, fell and drivability. NTA/government have to think about cost/budget and environmental and emission standards and overall government policy in those areas.

punisher5112 · 26-04-2019 4:52pm

Sg are terribly bad on efficiency and causing huge issues.

The engines are overworked.

punisher5112 · 26-04-2019 4:54pm

I see VT 22 doesn't have db logo on the rear and only the new tfi logo.

Stephen15 · 26-04-2019 7:30pm

dfx- wrote: »

Because we're still buying the same bus in 2019 as we were in 2014 and arguably 2012 with the GTs.

I'm going to guess there has been an increase in demand in those seven years.

You can be sure what they'll do when the 07s go, they'll throw more costly SGs at the problem. Fleet uniformity...

And there has been a period of significant fleet expansion since then 133 additional buses for GAI freeing up the DB fleet and there have also been extra buses for DB in that time too. The fleet is being restored to what it was before the recession.

Afaik the original VTs were ordered back when the DoT had a cap on DBs fleet size so in order to fix capacity issues bigger buses were ordered instead of additional buses.

One thing for certain is the remaining VTs wont be replaced by SGs. They'll be replaced by hybrid buses as no more diesel only buses will be ordered come this summer whether they be twin or tri axle is another question.

Stephen15 · 26-04-2019 8:35pm

Also DB ordered over 600 ALX400s between 2000 and 2006 so I dont see the issue with ordering such a large quantity of one type of bus and if you're saying the GTs and the SGs are the same then you could also say that the ALX400s are the same as the Enviro 400 EV class they're a newer version.

Sure you could say every DB twin axle double decker since the RAs are the same. All have buses since then have been just an updated of the same Volvo diesel chassis apart from the DTs which there were only ten of. It's only now with the talk of hybrids that we may get something that isn't a Volvo product if the NTA go with the Wrightbus or ADL option.

Stephen15 · 30-04-2019 7:36pm

Not everyone in Edinburgh seems happy about the situation with the new buses. Due to the lack of separate wheelchair and buggy space.

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/thousands-sign-petition-urging-lothian-16107844

thomasj · 30-04-2019 9:13pm

BRT is the answer to all these problems .

Multiple locations to put on buggys and wheelchairs

The space on SGs are not much better than the VTs when it comes to buggy space , especially when a bus is packed.

punisher5112 · 30-04-2019 9:16pm

Buggies take up way too much space that is needed.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 30-04-2019 10:00pm

2,000 people is nothing

Bearing in mind not all those 2,000 would actually use a pram but just jumping on the band wagon

Also how many people use lothion buses in a day ? I'd say it's an awful lot more than 2,000

It's a case of the need of the many out weigh the need of the few.

I hope lothion done revert this decision

Stephen15 · 30-04-2019 10:16pm

All well and good but having a separate buggy and wheelchair space is not going completely take away the issue of wheelchair vs buggy but will mitigate the issue as both a buggy and a wheelchair can be on board at any one time. The new Lothian buses are not wheelchair friendly either from the pictures I've seen as there are three fold down seats in the wheelchair space and a wheelchair user cannot board if just one buggy is in the wheelchair space something which wouldn't happen if there was separate spaces.

The standing passenger vs buggy issue is much less of an issue and not one I have heard much of tbh. Both buggy and wheelchair users generally tend to travel at off peak times as it is.

devnull · 30-04-2019 11:15pm

The reason that Lothian have that arrangement with three seats is all to do with it being required to hit the magic number 100.

Unfortunately marketing is seen more important than anything else these days by many. Not just related to transport industry though.

devnull · 30-04-2019 11:19pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Buggies take up way too much space that is needed.

Can't be needed so bad if there are a good number of seats going free upstairs when downstairs is crowded.

Depriving someone of a buggy space because people are too lazy to take the free seats at the back is not right. The buggy can't use the seats people refuse to use.

Thankfully the NTA are looking out for all groups in the layout of their vehicles and the provision of buggy spaces on the bus in Dublin has helped both wheelchair passengers and those with small children alike. Everyone I know in these groups is very supportive.

devnull · 30-04-2019 11:28pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

The standing passenger vs buggy issue is much less of an issue and not one I have heard much of tbh. Both buggy and wheelchair users generally tend to travel at off peak times as it is.

It's a really minor issue since most of the time there are many standing downstairs when there are at least high single figure seats upstairs if not double figures.

Blaming someone with a young child for taking up space when you don't take or even look for the free empty seats upstairs is pretty poor form if you ask me but some people do it. I've seen it sadly.

_Kaiser_ · 01-05-2019 7:58am

devnull wrote: »

It's a really minor issue since most of the time there are many standing downstairs when there are at least high single figure seats upstairs if not double figures.

Blaming someone with a young child for taking up space when you don't take or even look for the free empty seats upstairs is pretty poor form if you ask me but some people do it. I've seen it sadly.

Back in my bus commuting days I would often decide to stay downstairs rather than sit towards the back upstairs:

- trying to get from the back of the upper saloon to the front door on a crowded bus before the driver drives off again was like a race

- trying not to fall down the stairs as you do because of generally poor driving abilities and even poorer suspensions, coupled with things like speed ramps taken at speed

- both more awkward if you have heavy/bulky bags with you

- antisocial elements at the back of the upper saloon.

No thanks. I'd rather stand.

Tickityboo · 01-05-2019 9:14am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Back in my bus commuting days I would often decide to stay downstairs rather than sit towards the back upstairs:

- trying to get from the back of the upper saloon to the front door on a crowded bus before the driver drives off again was like a race

- trying not to fall down the stairs as you do because of generally poor driving abilities and even poorer suspensions, coupled with things like speed ramps taken at speed

- both more awkward if you have heavy/bulky bags with you

- antisocial elements at the back of the upper saloon.

No thanks. I'd rather stand.

Talk about blaming everybody else for your own incompetence!!
There's big yellow bars to hold onto all over the bus.
Just start making your way downstairs while the bus is serving or passing the stop before yours.

_Kaiser_ · 01-05-2019 10:25am

Tickityboo wrote: »

Talk about blaming everybody else for your own incompetence!!
There's big yellow bars to hold onto all over the bus.
Just start making your way downstairs while the bus is serving or passing the stop before yours.

Nah, I bought a car instead. Resolves all of those problems with the addition of no waiting around/ready to go when I am, guaranteed a seat, as hot/cold as I want it, not having to listen to the driver's choice of radio station or people on their phones, and the ability to reroute mid journey as needed

dfx- · 01-05-2019 12:57pm

devnull wrote: »

It's a really minor issue since most of the time there are many standing downstairs when there are at least high single figure seats upstairs if not double figures.

Blaming someone with a young child for taking up space when you don't take or even look for the free empty seats upstairs is pretty poor form if you ask me but some people do it. I've seen it sadly.

That bus is already too full by that point. What that route needs is a service level upgrade.

Stephen15 · 01-05-2019 1:32pm

dfx- wrote: »

That bus is already too full by that point. What that route needs is a service level upgrade.

Standing is something which many commuters are going to have to accept it's not feasible to make sure everyone gets a seat. I wouldn't regard having sewts available upstairs as too full if passengers used all available seats additional standing passengers can board. I don't see the issue with standing.

AlekSmart · 01-05-2019 6:46pm

Tickityboo wrote: »

Talk about blaming everybody else for your own incompetence!!
There's big yellow bars to hold onto all over the bus.
Just start making your way downstairs while the bus is serving or passing the stop before yours.

Interestingly,in 2016,the Court of Appeal delivered a similarly robust decision which agrees with that...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/woman-who-fell-down-stairs-of-dublin-bus-not-given-damages-by-court-1.2893858

It was “utterly unreasonable and unrealistic” to impose a duty of care requiring Dublin Bus drivers to check passengers are securely in their seats before driving off, Mr Justice Michael Peart said.

To require the driver not to drive away until he was satisfied Ms McGarr had reached the top of the stairs would impose an “impossible” standard of care that “completely ignores the realities of modern-day bus travel”.

It was quite a definitive judgement too......

He was giving the court’s unanimous judgment dismissing Ms McGarr’s appeal over the High Court’s rejection of her claim.

Oh well,some clouds may still have a Silver.....(Dutch ?) Gold lining......:)

Mr Justice Peart said he and the other members of the court had viewed the CCTV footage carefully and agreed with the High Court findings. The footage showed, at the time Ms McGarr fell, a male passenger continued to drink undisturbed from a can, he noted.

bk · 02-05-2019 12:24am

Jezz, my 3 year old makes it up and down the stairs by herself! She says it is wibbly wobbly, but manages fine all the same

Stephen15 · 16-07-2019 6:02pm

I saw a picture online of one if the new Volvo hybrid (VH) buses and while it's still a twin axle bus it has a considerably longer wheelbase than an SG or any of the other hybrids which are on trial (WH and AH) it pretty much looks like a stretched SG.

I wonder could the NTA be potentially looking at similar length buses to replace the remaining VTs when they are duemto be wirhdrawn in the next year or so.

devnull · 16-07-2019 6:39pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I saw a picture online of one if the new Volvo hybrid (VH) buses and while it's still a twin axle bus it has a considerably longer wheelbase than an SG or any of the other hybrids which are on trial (WH and AH) it pretty much looks like a stretched SG.

I wonder could the NTA be potentially looking at similar length buses to replace the remaining VTs when they are duemto be wirhdrawn in the next year or so.

The NTA specified as standard the size of SG that they have ordered for the last number of years, there was options for longer ones always on two axles but the NTA never took up that option. The more recent Bus Eireann VWDs are of a shorter length than the earlier ones as well, again that was an NTA choice.

Also the bonded windows make a massive difference, and make a bus look longer than it actually is on the AH.

Stephen15 · 16-07-2019 9:48pm

devnull wrote: »

The NTA specified as standard the size of SG that they have ordered for the last number of years, there was options for longer ones always on two axles but the NTA never took up that option. The more recent Bus Eireann VWDs are of a shorter length than the earlier ones as well, again that was an NTA choice.

Also the bonded windows make a massive difference, and make a bus look longer than it actually is on the AH.

I don't want to post the image of the bus here as I have not been given permission by the person who posted the image and I don't have a link. However it is the exact same Wright bodywork work as the SG class and there is not bonded glazing. It would probably be the same length the longer BE VWDs or perhaps a similar length as the GAI streetlites.

Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

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