Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

salmocab · 15-02-2020 1:58pm

cgcsb wrote: »

While other tram systems have 40 trams an hour, none of them are operating trams nearly as long as luas trams. And the reason they don't have such long trams is because their tram systems are serving central areas and inner suburbs only. All these cities have extensive heavy rail and metro systems that do the heavy lifting in terms of capacity. We're too cheap for that which is why we have on street trams going to the Kildare and Wicklow borders.

I get on at harcourt going south so effectively the last stop of the city Center section and it’s not unusual at 7pm when I use it for trams to be bunched right up. 2 minutes headway through the middle must be nigh impossible with our set up. Maybe with some work on crossings from Charlemont to Sandyford it would be doable but that would also realistically require the metro at Charlemont.

tom1ie · 15-02-2020 2:02pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Ah, sorry, none of that was directed at you! Absolutely none! It was instead aimed at those who are constantly posting in here about how it'll never be built, and I don't consider you to be one of those people at all.

You're right about ignoring it of course, it's what I do, there's no engaging with it, as I said, it's pointless. I'd question the point of posting it in the first place though. Why tell everyone over and over that it'll never get built? It's all that some people post. I don't get it.

Fair play cat I was probably being a pit precious there tbh!!
Anyway I hope the fcuking thing gets built and I think it will due to the gp getting into government (as part of an ff fg gp coalition) and them putting pressure on the big two to get it done.
However I do think it’ll be the metro north section that gets built but Eamon will Still be pulling out the crayons.
Not necessarily a bad thing if we've an extra 10billion!!

Idbatterim · 15-02-2020 4:42pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Fair play cat I was probably being a pit precious there tbh!!
Anyway I hope the fcuking thing gets built and I think it will due to the gp getting into government (as part of an ff fg gp coalition) and them putting pressure on the big two to get it done.
However I do think it’ll be the metro north section that gets built but Eamon will Still be pulling out the crayons.
Not necessarily a bad thing if we've an extra 10billion!!

If SF dont get in, I see it going ahead, because people are so angry with so many areas, including transport, that FFG are simply going to have to go ahead with everything they can now asap, as its the low hanging fruit. If they do this, they will likely deflate the SF baloon a bit, if they dont...

I dont know what SF getting in, would do to the project, too many permutations...

Idbatterim · 15-02-2020 4:44pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Sadly I think that if the closure of a single street in Ranelagh was enough to form an entire group seemingly dedicated to ensuring the whole thing never goes ahead, then the CPO of a school and more importantly in Ranelagh, tennis courts is going to be wrapped up in legal complaints forever.

its going to be WAY WAY harded to start trying to justify pleasing a few local nimbies, when the masses are getting angry and the establishment are losing power over inaction...

Zebra3 · 15-02-2020 5:12pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

If SF dont get in, I see it going ahead, because people are so angry with so many areas, including transport, that FFG are simply going to have to go ahead with everything they can now asap, as its the low hanging fruit. If they do this, they will likely deflate the SF baloon a bit, if they dont...

I dont know what SF getting in, would do to the project, too many permutations...

Doesn't look like SF will be in the next government.

Marcusm · 15-02-2020 8:05pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Thanks.

I am of course aware that there is a problem on the Green Line, but my main concern when posting is that these problems are replicated all over Dublin.

I have often wondered whether the Green Line might be a good place to test a 'schoolchidren only' service. At peak times there's lots of kids trying to get to school, and they pack in much more efficiently than adults, sitting on each other and talking about what's going to happen that day, etc. They don't want to be with adults, and adults broadly don't want to be with them. Maybe a service every 15 minutes for schoolchildren.

Adults don't want to be standing very close to a schoolchild, or anybody, on a crowded tram. If you could take the kids out, and put them on their own designated tram, it could make it more efficient for everybody.

Jesus, you clearly don’t go on the green line at rush hour with school kids and stuff dents putting sportsbags on the ground as trip hazards, congregating around dame taking up the space of 3 each and then acting as the sulky teenagers that they are when asked to bunch up or be considerate! I’m speaking of 8-845.

Last Stop · 16-02-2020 2:46pm

citizen6 wrote: »

Any idea what a Luas turnback at Charlemont would look like? Would a third track be required, and could this be achieved by widening the bridge?

It would have to be a 3rd track to accommodate that frequency. This would likely involve widening the bridge and turning one of the existing platforms into an island platform like that at Heuston.

Last Stop · 16-02-2020 2:51pm

cgcsb wrote: »

While other tram systems have 40 trams an hour, none of them are operating trams nearly as long as luas trams. And the reason they don't have such long trams is because their tram systems are serving central areas and inner suburbs only. All these cities have extensive heavy rail and metro systems that do the heavy lifting in terms of capacity. We're too cheap for that which is why we have on street trams going to the Kildare and Wicklow borders.

While I agree with the underlying reasoning behind your post, we have to stop thinking of Luas as a traditional tram. It’s more akin to a light metro.
This type of system is ideally suited to they majority of corridors in Dublin given the size and density. It shoud however be supported by a series of heavy rail lines and the full Metrolink to Sandyford.

D.L.R. · 16-02-2020 6:38pm

Last Stop wrote: »

While I agree with the underlying reasoning behind your post, we have to stop thinking of Luas as a traditional tram. It’s more akin to a light metro.
This type of system is ideally suited to they majority of corridors in Dublin given the size and density. It shoud however be supported by a series of heavy rail lines and the full Metrolink to Sandyford.

Its definitely not a light metro. You'd need to dive under the city to call it that. The green line is a sort of messy hybrid line, but that's about it.

I think the people of Dublin were sold a pup with the luas to be honest, as it was promoted as a "light metro" type system, but its closer to a bog standard tram in most respects.

Its a deeply unimpressive system.

MJohnston · 16-02-2020 6:49pm

It’s a fairly hybrid system imo. Out in the suburbs, it definitely acts more like a light Metro, like London’s DLR or the Muni in San Francisco. Then, during on-street sections, it’s much more tram-like.

It can be both!

I actually think there’s a near-future (ie. once the Metrolink is up and running) case for looking into the viability of Charlemont to Sandyford running as a fully separate, high frequency LUAS, with a Finglas to Harcourt line running on its own.

Closing Dunville, St Raphaela’s and the other minor crossings won’t really cause much more than a few weeks of line closures, but it might be able to drastically improve running capacity.

Podge_irl · 16-02-2020 7:02pm

cgcsb wrote: »

While other tram systems have 40 trams an hour, none of them are operating trams nearly as long as luas trams. And the reason they don't have such long trams is because their tram systems are serving central areas and inner suburbs only. All these cities have extensive heavy rail and metro systems that do the heavy lifting in terms of capacity. We're too cheap for that which is why we have on street trams going to the Kildare and Wicklow borders.

None of them are operating at 40 trams on hour for an entire line, which is the more relevant point. When certain sections have increased frequency where multiple lines meet up issues such as bunching are far less important as the trams go their separate ways again.

Last Stop · 16-02-2020 9:59pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its definitely not a light metro. You'd need to dive under the city to call it that. The green line is a sort of messy hybrid line, but that's about it.

I think the people of Dublin were sold a pup with the luas to be honest, as it was promoted as a "light metro" type system, but its closer to a bog standard tram in most respects.

Its a deeply unimpressive system.

If it dived under the city, I’d call it a metro.
A light metro would be the Luas with roughly 20% of each line on street running and the rest reasonably if not fully segregated.

Sam Russell · 16-02-2020 10:09pm

Mod: Can we keep Luas above ground and on other threads. This thread is for Metrolink - Swords to Charlemont. (Well Estuary counts as well).

There are plenty of other threads for Luas, Dart, etc.

marno21 · 21-02-2020 9:22pm

marno21 wrote: »

2 tenders out in the last week

MetroLink Operations Advisor

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=151460&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

MetroLink Concept Architect

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=151684&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Operations Advisor contract awarded to SNC Lavalin

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/227656

Dats me · 22-02-2020 3:26am

marno21 wrote: »

Operations Advisor contract awarded to SNC Lavalin

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/227656

Never heard of them?

D.L.R. · 22-02-2020 11:09am

Last Stop wrote: »

If it dived under the city, I’d call it a metro.
A light metro would be the Luas with roughly 20% of each line on street running and the rest reasonably if not fully segregated.

Light metro for me is a segregated light rail system, such as in Porto, Hannover, Brussels, Copenhagen, Newcastle, London DLR, etc. Bit of a stretch putting luas in the same category tbh.

Luas is closer to Edinburgh trams, Manchester Metrolink, Nice tramway or Portland Max.

Metrolink will be light metro though, if this country ever gets the finger out that is.

Sligo eye · 22-02-2020 2:27pm

Dats me wrote: »

Never heard of them?

Big contracting company in the railway industry

annfield1978 · 23-02-2020 8:29pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

Big contracting company in the railway industry

Canadian Company, bought Atkins recently

Significant controversy in Canada - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNC-Lavalin_affair

yermanoffthetv · 26-02-2020 12:23am

https://www.railwaygazette.com/projects-and-planning/dublin-automated-metro-operations-consultant-appointed/55865.article

More consultants brought in, SNC-Lavalin as operations advisors. Full automation looks like the road they are head down which is nice.

27-02-2020 5:14pm

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

https://www.railwaygazette.com/projects-and-planning/dublin-automated-metro-operations-consultant-appointed/55865.article

More consultants brought in, SNC-Lavalin as operations advisors. Full automation looks like the road they are head down which is nice.

Full automation? So will add 10 years to deployment.

salmocab · 27-02-2020 5:26pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Full automation? So will add 10 years to deployment.

Why?

MJohnston · 27-02-2020 5:39pm

I second that why

L1011 · 27-02-2020 5:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Full automation? So will add 10 years to deployment.

SELTRAC has been tested to death. It's also been planned to be automated from day one; so its not like a retrofit. Won't delay anything.

27-02-2020 5:49pm

L1011 wrote: »

SELTRAC has been tested to death. It's also been planned to be automated from day one; so its not like a retrofit. Won't delay anything.

Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

Not being negative, just realistic.

salmocab · 27-02-2020 6:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

Not being negative, just realistic.

People won’t care, there are several around with no real issues. There is a weird thing where people say what Irish people will or won’t be able for.
Unions won’t be an issue as it’s a completely new set up with no changeover.

Idbatterim · 27-02-2020 6:46pm

salmocab wrote: »

People won’t care, there are several around with no real issues. There is a weird thing where people say what Irish people will or won’t be able for.
Unions won’t be an issue as it’s a completely new set up with no changeover.

exactly, have to say, fair bloody play to them for going automated. It will be nearly the year 2030 this thing is built, if its built, I think they have worked out the automation bit decades ago? :rolleyes:

salmocab · 27-02-2020 6:53pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

exactly, have to say, fair bloody play to them for going automated. It will be nearly the year 2030 this thing is built, if its built, I think they have worked out the automation bit decades ago? :rolleyes:

Automated is really the only proper option.

Zebra3 · 27-02-2020 7:17pm

Hasn't the Copenhagen metro been automated from day one since it opened in 2003?

Won't be an issue.

The electorate has changed since Mary O'Rourke's days.

cgcsb · 28-02-2020 10:01am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

Not being negative, just realistic.

There are no existing unions representing metro drivers that don't and won't ever exist in Ireland.

L1011 · 28-02-2020 10:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

Not being negative, just realistic.

Its quite unlikely the operator will be a pre-existing unionised operator so the unions one is a red herring.

Fear and unease of something that's proven for four decades should be dismissed with impunity. Human drivers cause far more issues.

AlmightyCushion · 28-02-2020 10:37am

L1011 wrote: »

Its quite unlikely the operator will be a pre-existing unionised operator so the unions one is a red herring.

Fear and unease of something that's proven for four decades should be dismissed with impunity. Human drivers cause far more issues.

I can still see the transport unions kicking up a stink about it. Hopefully, they are ignored though.

Qrt · 28-02-2020 1:55pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I can still see the transport unions kicking up a stink about it. Hopefully, they are ignored though.

I doubt they’ll be standing in solidarity with their cyborg allies.

Idbatterim · 28-02-2020 2:31pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I can still see the transport unions kicking up a stink about it. Hopefully, they are ignored though.

they dont give a toss about anything other than existing customers (their members) I think that is beyond blatant!

The outrageous luas strikes a few years back, likely cemented this being automated, thank god!

AlmightyCushion · 28-02-2020 2:42pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they dont give a toss about anything other than existing customers (their members) I think that is beyond blatant!

The outrageous luas strikes a few years back, likely cemented this being automated, thank god!

It'll give them no power over a brand new rail system. Also, it is a loss of potential new customers for them. They will definitely not be happy about it being a driverless system. Sure didn't the unions in the UK kick up a stink when driverless systems were introduced there.

I'm not saying they will be successful it getting rid of it but they will kick up a stink over it being driverless.

Idbatterim · 28-02-2020 2:45pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

It'll give them no power over a brand new rail system. Also, it is a loss of potential new customers for them. They will definitely not be happy about it being a driverless system. Sure didn't the unions in the UK kick up a stink when driverless systems were introduced there.

I'm not saying they will be successful it getting rid of it but they will kick up a stink over it being driverless.

they will still need maintenance staff, cleaners, security etc. It's just one element that is doing away with humans. I dont know how many drivers this line would need, but what are you talking? 60-80? not a big deal either way to unions, but certainly from a passenger and headache perspective for the operator running the line and government, it makes total sense...

salmocab · 28-02-2020 2:53pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they will still need maintenance staff, cleaners, security etc. It's just one element that is doing away with humans. I dont know how many drivers this line would need, but what are you talking? 60-80? not a big deal either way to unions, but certainly from a passenger and headache perspective for the operator running the line and government, it makes total sense...

Operation wise driverless can have shorter times between trains. I think I read 90 seconds whereas drivers need more time. It also save a bit of space at each end of the train for more passengers which both add up to more passengers per direction per hour. Now I don’t think it will start at 90 second headway’s but it gives somewhere to go as a line gets higher usage. It also means that taking out trains after peak times is easy with no rostering issues.

AlmightyCushion · 28-02-2020 2:55pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they will still need maintenance staff, cleaners, security etc. It's just one element that is doing away with humans. I dont know how many drivers this line would need, but what are you talking? 60-80? not a big deal either way to unions, but certainly from a passenger and headache perspective for the operator running the line and government, it makes total sense...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282

Rail Maritime and Transport union (RMT) members will vote on industrial action ahead of preparations to test trains without drivers.

RMT general secretary Bob Crow said: "RMT reiterates this union's complete opposition to driverless trains. Every train must have a driver to ensure the safe and effective running of the Underground.

"Plans to scrap drivers or reduce their driving duties are risking safety, services and jobs and are motivated by saving money and undermining trade unionism."

Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

Idbatterim · 28-02-2020 2:59pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282

Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

I wonder what the outcome of that was? look, they just need to be faced down, people have near zero sympathy for them. they wont have public support, the luas strikes did nothing but highlight, how overpaid they already were. This is a mountain being made into a molehill. The unions havent even mentioned this an issue and frankly I and I doubt the collossal majority, couldnt care less if they do. they are the primary driver of change to driverless for god sake!:rolleyes:

Zebra3 · 28-02-2020 3:00pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282

Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

They'll get no sympathy if they try the same thing.

Times are moving on.

Automation is doing away with boring repetitive jobs and creating higher tech jobs.

AlmightyCushion · 28-02-2020 3:17pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I wonder what the outcome of that was? look, they just need to be faced down, people have near zero sympathy for them. they wont have public support, the luas strikes did nothing but highlight, how overpaid they already were. This is a mountain being made into a molehill. The unions havent even mentioned this an issue and frankly I and I doubt the collossal majority, couldnt care less if they do. they are the primary driver of change to driverless for god sake!:rolleyes:

You said that it wasn't a big deal to the unions when I said they would kick up a stink about it. Doesn't matter what the outcome was, they still kicked up a stink. I also said I didn't think they would be successful in blocking the metro being driverless.

I agree it should be driverless and that if the unions do stamp their feet about it they should be faced down.

loyatemu · 28-02-2020 3:33pm

I don't get the safety argument - the DLR is driverless and has been running for years. Have there been any major incidents?
How many accidents have been caused by SPADs (human error), which are pretty much impossible in an automated system.

AlmightyCushion · 28-02-2020 3:37pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I don't get the safety argument - the DLR is driverless and has been running for years. Have there been any major incidents?
How many accidents have been caused by SPADs (human error), which are pretty much impossible in an automated system.

It's really nothing to do with safety but safety is a nice bogeyman for this type of thing. They have used safety as a reason to oppose things before. Strangely enough once their members get more money, their concerns are satisfied and they aren't worried about passenger safety anymore.

LXFlyer · 28-02-2020 4:01pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282

Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

That is all to do about existing railways which have humans driving them, and has a lot to do with protecting those jobs as well.

It is a complete red herring in this case.

Metrolink would be a brand new railway which will have protected platforms, new stock and fully automated signalling.

It’s comparing apples with oranges.

There is no reason why metrolink would cause mass union issues - it’s not going to spill over onto the existing railways as they’re built to a completely different spec and have far more need of local human supervision.

salmocab · 28-02-2020 4:25pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

You said that it wasn't a big deal to the unions when I said they would kick up a stink about it. Doesn't matter what the outcome was, they still kicked up a stink. I also said I didn't think they would be successful in blocking the metro being driverless.

I agree it should be driverless and that if the unions do stamp their feet about it they should be faced down.

The major difference between the article and the metro is that it’s talking of doing away with union jobs that exist against a whole new system that doesn’t exist yet. They can stamp their feet and hold their breath but it won’t change a thing.

bk · 28-02-2020 6:06pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I don't get the safety argument - the DLR is driverless and has been running for years. Have there been any major incidents?
How many accidents have been caused by SPADs (human error), which are pretty much impossible in an automated system.

There have been two accidents on the DLR and ironically both times the train was being operated manually by a driver!

L1011 · 28-02-2020 8:21pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282

Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

There will never be any Metro drivers to go on strike.

Sympathy strikes are illegal.

They can bitch and moan from their other vehicles but if they go on strike they'll be injuncted and the union will be bankrupted.

Its also quite likely that the operator, whoever they are, will pick a union to recognise for their other staff and ignore the rest; and that'll probably be SIPTU

Idbatterim · 12-03-2020 2:39pm

I reckon they will be out taking passenger figures to gauge demand for dublin metro tomorrow, perfect opportunity to scrap it!

Thelonious Monk · 13-03-2020 3:28pm

If there's a recession now it wont happen then I can say I told you so and have a minor victory that no one cares about on the internet.

Idbatterim · 13-03-2020 3:40pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

If there's a recession now it wont happen then I can say I told you so and have a minor victory that no one cares about on the internet.

if we have a recession, its the perfect time to build it, avail of cheaper tender prices and keep thousands of skilled people in the country! they can ditch the off the wall NBP...

Zebra3 · 13-03-2020 4:08pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

if we have a recession, its the perfect time to build it, avail of cheaper tender prices and keep thousands of skilled people in the country! they can ditch the off the wall NBP...

But that would involve political courage!!!!! :pac:

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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