BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

dublinman1990 · 22-10-2019 4:24pm

I'm just having a look at the local area plans for Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Ballybrack, Sallynoggin areas at the moment. There's quite a few changes to the routes in these areas; especially for my own housing estate in Blackrock. I will give you a summary as well as the leaflet for it below.

https://busconnects.ie/media/1683/dun-laoghaire-accordian-leaflet-260919-fa-web.pdf

On the peak routes; The 311 is still there from Townsend St to Shankill. There has one new peak service route being provided in my area, which is the 312, from Townsend St to Dalkey. These routes are mostly the same routes as the current 7B & 7D from either Shankill or Dalkey. The 7B & 7D however currently begin their routes on the northside of the city in Mountjoy Sqaure. However the 311 & 312 are to have a new terminus on the southside of the City Centre at Townsend St which means they no longer cross O'Connell Bridge up to Mountjoy Square.

The orbitals have the S6 retained between Blackrock & Tallaght. But the frequency is improved to every 10 to 15 minutes.

The S7 is no longer there however as it's scrapped.

There is an extension provided for one of the orbital routes in my locality. That is for the S8. It now goes from Dun Laoghaire to Citywest instead of Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght. It retains the 20 minute frequency from the 1st Network Redesign proposals. It also has a change on it's route when it goes to or from Dun Laoghaire. A new part of the S8 route is via Monkstown Village, Monkstown Road, Temple Hill, Newtownpark Avenue (outside Guardian Angels NS & Newpark Comprehensive School) & then I presume it continues on it's original proposed route when it leaves Sandyford Business District onto Citywest. I will have to look at that route later on today in more detail when I got the opportunity to do it.

There is a change in both of the proposed local routes known as the 226 & 227.

The 226 has the same termini between Blackrock Dart Station & Kilternan. But it's been tweaked to go up Carysfort Avenue, Fleurville Road, Benamore Road & Rowanbyrn estate. Once it leaves Rowanbyrn, the 226 turns right towards Deangrange, Cornelscourt SC & then onto Kilternan. The 226 runs every 30 minutes.

The 227 has a big change to it's route in that it does not go to Blackrock anymore. It's like a shortened version of the 63 with Go-Ahead Ireland now in that the new 227 goes out from Dun Laoghaire Dart Station to Ballyogan. The route of the 227 is the exact same from Ballyogan to Abbey Road in Kill O' The Grange from the 1st proposals. It then swings down to Monkstown Avenue, Monkstown Farm, Mounttown Road, York Road with the final stop at Dun Laoghaire Dart Station. The frequency for the 227 is every 30 minutes.

There is no changes in place for the 221, 222 & probably for the 225.

But the 229, which went from Brides Glen to Dun Laoghaire from the 1st proposals, is scrapped altogether.

However the residents in Loughlinstown Park have that new proposed route called the 98 from Mountjoy Sqaure in the City Centre. It's nearly like the 7A route except when it goes through Blackrock & Sallynoggin. In the Blackrock area; it stays along the Blackrock by-pass, like the current 7 route, in both directions. Newtown Avenue is completely cut-off from bus services going from the proposals in the Blackrock area. In Sallynoggin; the 98 takes up part of the route from the current 45A & 45B route past St Joseph's FC & Rochestown Avenue. But the new 98 route however is on an hourly frequency.

On the spines; The new B3 & B4 routes are included in the proposals. The new B3 goes from Dun Laoghaire to Tyrrelstown. It covers Castlecurragh on the way up to Tyrrelstown. It runs every 10 to 15 minutes. The new B4 is the other route which goes from Killiney SC to Blanchardstown. The B4 is routed around Sallynoggin on the approach to or from Killiney SC in that it goes past Aldi & Sallynoggin College of Further Education near Glenageary Heights. The B4 also runs every 10 to 15 minutes.

The public consultation for these areas will be in The Royal Marine Hotel in Dun Laoghaire for two days in November.

Here are the details.

14th November: 11:30am – 5:30pm

15th November: 1:30pm – 7:30pm

solidasarock · 22-10-2019 6:36pm

Ha. Clever girl.

The revised Bray area bus routes cut off the major residential areas from a direct bus to Dublin City so now their only options are a bus to the Dart or a Bus to another Bus.

Doesn't effect me because I am on the other side of the DART station but that sucks for 80% of the town.

Also the 145 and the 155 becoming replaced with 1 single bus every 10/15 minutes again will make rush hour a bigger mess. The 155 helped take pressure off the packed 145. Its still a gamble each morning getting a place on the bus but it was better then it was last year at least. This new setup would be taking huge steps back.

Last Stop · 22-10-2019 8:02pm

From an initial inspection, some of the corridors are operating at or above their design capacity of 2 min frequency when you add in the peak only services. Great foresight there!

devnull · 22-10-2019 8:21pm

Blog post from Jarrett Walker:
https://humantransit.org/2019/10/dublin-a-revised-network-plan.html

Jarrett has now finished his assignment with the NTA and won't be involved going forward.

caviardreams · 22-10-2019 8:35pm

solidasarock wrote: »

Also the 145 and the 155 becoming replaced with 1 single bus every 10/15 minutes again will make rush hour a bigger mess. The 155 helped take pressure off the packed 145. Its still a gamble each morning getting a place on the bus but it was better then it was last year at least. This new setup would be taking huge steps back.

Totally agree with this - for the main N11 part Stillorgan/UCD/Donnybrook, there is currently a 46a every 7-8 mins, 145 every 10 mins and 155 every 20 mins during peak times - this is already packed. To replace this with 2 routes every 10-15 mins is a significant reduction in service imo. And this is one of the main spines where there will surely be growth in passenger numbers over the next few years?

Last Stop · 22-10-2019 8:53pm

caviardreams wrote: »

Totally agree with this - for the main N11 part Stillorgan/UCD/Donnybrook, there is currently a 46a every 7-8 mins, 145 every 10 mins and 155 every 20 mins during peak times - this is already packed. To replace this with 2 routes every 10-15 mins is a significant reduction in service imo. And this is one of the main spines where there will surely be growth in passenger numbers over the next few years?

There’s now 15 peak hour services though (9 to UCD, 6 to city centre) plus you can change to the B spine at UCD from the 9 peak hour ones

Joker2019 · 22-10-2019 8:58pm

solidasarock wrote: »

Ha. Clever girl.

The revised Bray area bus routes cut off the major residential areas from a direct bus to Dublin City so now their only options are a bus to the Dart or a Bus to another Bus.

Doesn't effect me because I am on the other side of the DART station but that sucks for 80% of the town.

Also the 145 and the 155 becoming replaced with 1 single bus every 10/15 minutes again will make rush hour a bigger mess. The 155 helped take pressure off the packed 145. Its still a gamble each morning getting a place on the bus but it was better then it was last year at least. This new setup would be taking huge steps back.

I personally think if they get the frequency right one bus route would be better than two routes. A problem I have noticed with the 155 since its introduction has been that it often seems to be bunched with the 145. If they ran the E1 every 10 mins during the day and every 5 mins in the morning and evening peak I would say that the Bray corridor could be adequately served. I imagine those frequency lists are off peak and buses will run more frequently at peak times.

As for parts of Bray being cut off there is a lot better connectivity to the Dart station from most of South Bray with the 212 running every 10-15 mins which I would regard as an improvement in the sense that it opens up more options and getting a bus to a DART could prove quicker than getting a direct bus. However I am disappointed with the lack of connectivity between Bray and the Luas.

crushproof · 22-10-2019 9:05pm

devnull wrote: »

Blog post from Jarrett Walker:
https://humantransit.org/2019/10/dublin-a-revised-network-plan.html

Jarrett has now finished his assignment with the NTA and won't be involved going forward.

Delighted to be no longer involved I'd say. Must have been tearing their hair out listening to some of the nonsense being spouted over the last couple of years.

bk · 22-10-2019 10:17pm

Joker2019 wrote: »

However I am disappointed with the lack of connectivity between Bray and the Luas.

Most likely because the Luas is already overcapacity and the plan to upgrade it to Metro has been hit on the head for the time being.

DART at least has Dart Expansion to increase capacity over the next few years.

BTW Looks to be very little change in my area, so I'm very happy with that. The new orbitals will be great and I think the combined routes make a lot of sense.

Also it looks like the 90 minute ticket is still happening.

Second Captain · 22-10-2019 10:41pm

I am gobsmacked to discover that one of the suggestions in my submission to the BusConnects team, a whole additional local route in Bray from the Southern Cross to the Dart Stn via Putland Road, has been implemented in full in the shape of route 214. I take full credit! :cool:

As a bonus, one of the spine routes has been extended by about 1km and now passes my front door - I didn't even ask for that!

solidasarock wrote: »

Ha. Clever girl.

The revised Bray area bus routes cut off the major residential areas from a direct bus to Dublin City so now their only options are a bus to the Dart or a Bus to another Bus.

Doesn't effect me because I am on the other side of the DART station but that sucks for 80% of the town.

Also the 145 and the 155 becoming replaced with 1 single bus every 10/15 minutes again will make rush hour a bigger mess. The 155 helped take pressure off the packed 145. Its still a gamble each morning getting a place on the bus but it was better then it was last year at least. This new setup would be taking huge steps back.

As someone who needs to connect from the 84/184/45A coming from the south-east of Bray once or twice a week to the 145/155 going into Dublin, i can say that changing bus in the town centre is not that big a deal ... as long as the frequency of bus your meeting is sufficiently high enough. The proposed frequency of the E1 might be a little bit of a backward step alright. That said, the 145/155 spacing is not always evened out, you might get better headway maintenance with single route.

devnull wrote: »

Blog post from Jarrett Walker:
https://humantransit.org/2019/10/dublin-a-revised-network-plan.html

Jarrett has now finished his assignment with the NTA and won't be involved going forward.

I am glad to se that the JW team had input into this review and he doesn't seem to be making any hint that the NTA has strayed too far from the original plan.

I haven't had time to read the full report, just gone off the main map and sections of the consultation report so far. My immediate concern is that with several extensions to spine routes - some of several kilometres - plus what seems to be many additional city and local routes, that the frequencies will drop off. It is high frequency and associated high reliability that really makes public transport systems attractive. The only way that circle can be squared is to invest in more vehicles and drivers than originally planned.

ShaneODub · 22-10-2019 11:54pm

I'm in Mountjoy Square. I think the 'A' routes were going to go both directions along Gardiner Street under the original proposal, which I thought was a good idea. Now it's back to a more conventional routing - comes into town from the north side and turns left onto Nth Frederick Street, Parnell Square East, O'Connell Street.

Mountjoy Square will now have a few random routes starting and terminating here, heading south-side - a 10, 11, 12, 15 and 98 going to Ticknock, Belarmine, Enniskerry and other far-flung places.

Haven't studied today's changes much in detail, but I'm optimistic. The orbital routes will be handy. Hopefully it gets rolled out soon.

Kermit.de.frog · 23-10-2019 12:05am

Will they still be doing wholesale reconstruction of the routes (removing roundabouts, widening footpaths etc)?

If so when is construction due to start?

xper · 23-10-2019 12:06am

The high frequency orbital routes are real game-changers for the network by themselves and thankfully seem to have come through the review largely unscathed (most probably because 99% of commentators are obsessed with get-one-bus-from-my-door-into-town).

ShaneODub · 23-10-2019 12:10am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Will they still be doing wholesale reconstruction of the routes (removing roundabouts, widening footpaths etc)?

If so when is construction due to start?

They'll be doing that under the Core Bus Corridor Project. I don't know if they'll be doing anything outside of that project.

An AA article in Feb said that they'll start construction in 2021 and finish in 2027. I can't post the link because I'm a new user here.

dublinman1990 · 23-10-2019 12:34am

I was looking at the revised network map just now & discovered a change is in place for the 225 from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum Luas Station. The section of the route highlighted for this change is between Kilmacud Road Lower & Dundrum Luas Station. If you had lived along Kilmacud Road Lower with the 1st network redesign proposals in mind; then you would have observed the route going there & then along Drummartin Road & Taney Road to finish in Dundrum.

But now the 225 takes a further part of the 75 & 75A route to go past St Benildus College in Upper Kilmacud Road which means that a link for a bus route is retained for students going to that secondary school. The 225 also goes past Balally Luas Station as well as the two shopping centres in Dundrum on the way down to the Luas stop. So; if you were heading towards Dundrum Town Centre to do shopping or whatever; you would be able to board or get off the 225 near Movies@Dundrum.

This would be a boon of a bus route for me because if I was going to the centre for leisure activities; the 225 gives me a small gap to walk to the nearest bus stop from the house & then off the bus & into the centre within less than a minute. That is absolutely marvelous for me because it saves me from having to walk up that long hill up to the main street when walking from the Luas station.

Does anyone else agree with me on this particular point about the 225?

Kh1993 · 23-10-2019 12:44am

Like with the original plan, generally good, but with some faults.

Looking at north Dublin, some thoughts

- some routes are surely being designed to fail. The 280? Swords business park to DCU via Clongriffin, Beaumont and Whitehall? It’s not the route itself, but the reliability of this would be so so bad, zero chance of being able to time or predict it.

- Beaumont Hospital. Without some serious road upgrades here and the surrounds, this is a black hole where buses will disappear. Disheartened to see the 17a’s replacement (N8) going back into the hospital then doubling back on itself. This loses any sort of time saving.

- route 60 has been replaced by the Howth Spine. Good and bad. The 60 from town to the airport via Baldoyle was a massive route, hard to keep reliable. But the replacement is basically no change to the current system of 29a/31/32. Also Howth road loses a lot of its previous connectivity to DCU and the likes along a big stretch

- Clongriffin now only has its 3 spine routes. In the previous plan, it looked planned to be quite a major hub with 3 or 4 local routes terminating there.

- Northwood owners don’t seem to have budged on the private road access which is a pity.

- Buses such as the 94 which has a very good frequency are let down by the fact they’re doing about 4 jobs (covering the 11/13, doing a Ballymun local route, glasnevin estates, and adding frequency to a spine).

All in all, it needs to be implemented, but it’s a pity there’s been so many steps backwards with this. But you can’t blame them for trying, they got some of the biggest pushback a project has ever seen.

Qrt · 23-10-2019 1:02am

The West Tallaght developments are extremely impressive, I’ll have the D2 within a minute’s walk, the W8 to Maynooth/Celbridge/Newcastle/Saggart/Rathcoole(ish) within two minutes’ walk, and then the Luas to town and W4 to Clondalkin/Lucan/Liffey Valley/Blanch within 10 Minute’s walk.

Bit concerned about the Citywest Junction though, it was recently ‘upgraded’ from a roundabout to a congested, anti-pedestrian, anti-bus signalised junction so I’ll have some suggestions there.

I do think Tallaght could do with a local route though.

BonnieSituation · 23-10-2019 6:14am

average_runner wrote: »

How does the bus connect plan to handle the quays as this is our current bottle neck in the mornings?

Regarding Lucan, the bus connect offers no improvement which is sad really. Both buses going the same way through a housing estate that can't cope with it

Ah Foxborough. I stressed this during my submission that it was complete overkill to ram both routes through there for all departures.

loyatemu · 23-10-2019 10:03am

bk wrote: »

Most likely because the Luas is already overcapacity and the plan to upgrade it to Metro has been hit on the head for the time being.

DART at least has Dart Expansion to increase capacity over the next few years.

the reason for better connectivity from North Wicklow to the Luas is to provide access to Cherrywood and Sandyford, I doubt many would use bus->Luas to go all the way into town. Also at the weekends to get to Dundrum.

Is the Cherrywood-Sandyford section of Luas already over-capacity? If it is some other solution will be needed, huge numbers work in these developments and access to them from North Wicklow and South East Dublin is difficult and the M50 is choked.

bk · 23-10-2019 10:37am

ShaneODub wrote: »

I'm in Mountjoy Square. I think the 'A' routes were going to go both directions along Gardiner Street under the original proposal, which I thought was a good idea. Now it's back to a more conventional routing - comes into town from the north side and turns left onto Nth Frederick Street, Parnell Square East, O'Connell Street.

Yes, I noticed that. I wonder if it will become a two step move:

Phase 1: Make changes to the route numbering, etc. A routes, etc. but following a similar route up/down O'Connell St.

Phase 2: Move those routes later to Mountjoy Square as part of the core route infrastructure project

Might make it easier to push through, if there is less change all in one go.

On the other hand perhaps this is an indication that we will see changes to the core infrastructure plan that will route via OCS instead. Perhaps we will see even more extreme restrictions on cars and taxis that negate the benefits of Gardiner St.

bk · 23-10-2019 10:43am

loyatemu wrote: »

the reason for better connectivity from North Wicklow to the Luas is to provide access to Cherrywood and Sandyford, I doubt many would use bus->Luas to go all the way into town. Also at the weekends to get to Dundrum.

I do understand, but some people would use it as such and I bet the planners don't want to risk putting anymore pressure on it.

loyatemu wrote: »

tIs the Cherrywood-Sandyford section of Luas already over-capacity? If it is some other solution will be needed, huge numbers work in these developments and access to them from North Wicklow and South East Dublin is difficult and the M50 is choked.

Not quiet yet, but very close to it and will be over the next 5 years as the 10,000+ new apartments are built along the line.

The solution was upgrading the Green Line to Metro. Yes, I know that isn't the Cherrywood-Sandyford section you mentioned, but upgrading to Metro would have a knock on impact on this section too.

So go talk to your politicians about why they knocked the Green line upgrade on the head.

machaseh · 23-10-2019 10:43am

loyatemu wrote: »

the reason for better connectivity from North Wicklow to the Luas is to provide access to Cherrywood and Sandyford, I doubt many would use bus->Luas to go all the way into town. Also at the weekends to get to Dundrum.

Is the Cherrywood-Sandyford section of Luas already over-capacity? If it is some other solution will be needed, huge numbers work in these developments and access to them from North Wicklow and South East Dublin is difficult and the M50 is choked.

Brides Glen - Sandyford is currently fine, but there are enormous developments being built around cherrywood now and elsewhere along the route so this won't be for long.

Qrt · 23-10-2019 11:55am

The Bus Gate in Huntstown really is vital to the redesign in Blanchardstown, I looked at the road and I can only see 10/12 houses that would be affected. The retractable bollard solution is probably the best one.

Ready4Boarding · 23-10-2019 12:08pm

bk wrote: »

The solution was upgrading the Green Line to Metro. Yes, I know that isn't the Cherrywood-Sandyford section you mentioned, but upgrading to Metro would have a knock on impact on this section too.

So go talk to your politicians about why they knocked the Green line upgrade on the head.

It genuinely makes me hurt to think it's not going ahead. Everything in politics is a compromise but it seems so obvious that the benefits vastly outweigh any adverse consequences. I guess this is what it feels like to be a populist: the righteous anger stemming from unwavering conviction that something warranted is being withheld. The difference is I think/hope I have weighed up both sides rationally.

My suspicion is that NTA knows it will become untenable in 5/10 years not to upgrade; they gave up the fight too easily. BusConnects will be in place then which will take more of the load during the upgrade.

sharper · 23-10-2019 12:40pm

Ready4Boarding wrote: »

My suspicion is that NTA knows it will become untenable in 5/10 years not to upgrade; they gave up the fight too easily. BusConnects will be in place then which will take more of the load during the upgrade.

This also seems to be the approach taken with regard to traffic management in he city centre. "It'll eventually be such a mess something will have to be done" yet every year it gets that bit worse and nothing happens.

thenightman · 23-10-2019 5:08pm

Yeah, the ridiculous situation at the cross city Luas junction that holds up every cross city bus route is testament to that theory.

Joker2019 · 23-10-2019 5:52pm

bk wrote: »

Most likely because the Luas is already overcapacity and the plan to upgrade it to Metro has been hit on the head for the time being.

Not much use for people travelling from Bray to Sandyford or Dundrum. A journey which many people are making but usually by car.

dublinman1990 · 24-10-2019 12:39am

I'm looking through the interactive route mapper on the BusConnects website at the moment. I was doing up some new journey ideas for the proposed network and found something quite interesting. The query that I typed in the route mapper was from my home location in Newtownpark Avenue to Dun Laoghaire. It came up with two direct options with two maps. One of them was for the 225. The other map is for the S8. On the S8 route map; it said that my journey will begin from a proposed stop from Newtownpark Avenue onwards to Dun Laoghaire Dart Station. There is a blue line on the S8 map which starts off near Dunnes Stores or The Blue Orchid.

There is also a walking symbol on the map that is located right beside the Texaco Garage.

There used to be a bus stop located outside Texaco Garage in Newtownpark Avenue up until a number of years ago while it was being used for the 114 to Blackrock. Some of the 114 departures back then went through Newtownpark Avenue & Temple Hill onto Blackrock Dart Station. Obviously; that stop is not there at the present time because the 114 since had it's route permanently rerouted through Carysfort Avenue when go to or from Blackrock. If a new bus stop like that comes back somewhere along that of stretch of Newtownpark Avenue; I will be very happy to see it. If people had taken the proposed S8 to Dun Laoghaire without that stop in place right now if it ran in service; the gaps between those two bus stops would start off from Fairy Hill until it stops beside Guardian Angels Church.

AlekSmart · 24-10-2019 6:12am

Qrt wrote: »

The West Tallaght developments are extremely impressive, I’ll have the D2 within a minute’s walk, the W8 to Maynooth/Celbridge/Newcastle/Saggart/Rathcoole(ish) within two minutes’ walk, and then the Luas to town and W4 to Clondalkin/Lucan/Liffey Valley/Blanch within 10 Minute’s walk.

Bit concerned about the Citywest Junction though, it was recently ‘upgraded’ from a roundabout to a congested, anti-pedestrian, anti-bus signalised junction so I’ll have some suggestions there.

I do think Tallaght could do with a local route though.

Amen to this !

This location is testament to the Complete & Total absence vision relating to the greater concept of the Busconnects proposal.

The time,effort and money put into transforming the original Roundabout into the current mess is beyond rational understanding,one can only surmise it looks well on a coloured line slide presentation at some Engineers Conference out foreign.

We shall be extremely lucky if,in 2027,there is any coherent Bus Network as envisaged by Jarrett Walker.

He is lucky that his "engagement" with the NTA is at an end,because they will endeavour to replace his focused solution with the more traditional "Irish Solution to an Irish Problem" which usually worsens the original problem and then some....:o

The only glimmer of hope will be a change at the top of the NTA.....;)

Geuze · 24-10-2019 9:20am

Quick question - does the BusConnects project plan to reduce the number of bus stops?

AFAIK, there are too many at 7,000?

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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