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Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, 6th October 2019

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭UrbanFret


    He out stayed her on ****e ground, on any sort of decent ground enable wins
    Is the correct assessment. She has beat him every time they met before. Pity but that's racing.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    He out stayed her on ****e ground, on any sort of decent ground enable wins

    Possibly, but also Frankie seemed to only take aim at the horses in front and seemed to think once he covered them and grabbed the rail he had it won, and i dont think he was even aware of Waldgeists run. And despite the price it wasnt a shock, plenty on here had it.

    It was a comprehensive enough beating, Waldgeist was increasing his lead at the line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Possibly, but also Frankie seemed to only take aim at the horses in front and seemed to think once he covered them and grabbed the rail he had it won, and i dont think he was even aware of Waldgeists run. And despite the price it wasnt a shock, plenty on here had it.

    It was a comprehensive enough beating, Waldgeist was increasing his lead at the line.


    Without Waldgeist Enable would have thrashed the rest of the field. The ground really suited Enable, it just suited Waldgeist even more because he was closing like a train last year at the end of 12f on Good ground. Another furlong last year and he'd have beaten Enable ( maybe not Sea Of Class ). The stamina sapping Very Soft ground this year effectively handed him an extra furlong of closing time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    A few minutes ago I updated my Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe draw spreadsheet with the 2019 race.

    I have past races in time bands:
    "very fast" ... under 146.20s (5 winners)
    "fast" ..........146.20s to 148.00s (9)
    "medium" ......148.10s to 152.00s (16)
    "slow" ......... 152.00s+ (17).
    The 2019 race at 151.97s just got into the "medium" category.

    The winner was drawn 3, 2nd drawn 9, 3rd drawn 1.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭akelly02


    A few minutes ago I updated my Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe draw spreadsheet with the 2019 race.

    I have past races in time bands:
    "very fast" ... under 146.20s (5 winners)
    "fast" ..........146.20s to 148.00s (9)
    "medium" ......148.10s to 152.00s (16)
    "slow" ......... 152.00s+ (17).
    The 2019 race at 151.97s just got into the "medium" category.

    The winner was drawn 3, 2nd drawn 9, 3rd drawn 1.



    this doesnt allow for the bog that they ran on ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    akelly02 wrote: »
    this doesnt allow for the bog that they ran on ?
    17 out of the 47 races where I have the draw had slower times (Longchamp 1971 to 2019).
    The question is did Waldgeist put up an exceptional performance on the worst ground ever? The going was "very soft".
    Solemia in 2012 was about 6 seconds slower, Montjeu in 1999 was 6.5 slower, Urban Sea in 1993 6 seconds slower.


  • Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭ustari


    Out of interest, are horses getting faster typically as the years go on like athletes? This is not just specific to this race but your comment Tetrarch sparked my interest.

    I would presume so and a quick look at winning times for this race would seem to say so but wanted to know if that was ground related or other factors like wind direction etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    In general, horses have been breed with speed as the main factor over the last couple of decades so sprinting horses are quicker than ever before but middle distance horses are much of muchness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    ustari wrote: »
    Out of interest, are horses getting faster typically as the years go on like athletes? This is not just specific to this race but your comment Tetrarch sparked my interest.

    I would presume so and a quick look at winning times for this race would seem to say so but wanted to know if that was ground related or other factors like wind direction etc.

    Training techniques and course management (+ softer obstacles over jumps) should mean that course records will continue to fall. That said, firm ground is rare these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Horses may or may not be faster, impossible to say.
    The aim is to win the race, nor to go fast.
    You will always get new records, but as mentioned above records arise from fast ground and favourable wind.
    One factor that makes it difficult to break records now is previously races were hand timed, and it could be 3/4 second before the hand timer knew the horses are moving.
    Now the electronic timer afaik starts when the button is pushed to operate the stalls. In other words, modern horses have to be 3/4 second better before they are on a par with earlier timings.
    St Jovite's Irish Derby "record" time is wrong by about one second. Will the authorities correct it? They would plough up The Curragh before they would correct it.

    In the USA timing is different again.
    Timing does not start when the starter presses the button.
    Timing starts when the horses have covered a distance and pass through a timing beam, which could be 50 yards after the start.

    More horses are bred now than decades ago, but imo the majority are poorly bred.
    Mares are bred to the sires whose foals and yearlings will make the most money at the sales.
    An example of this is the Australian wonder racemare Winx, winner of her last 33 races, now retired.
    What sire was chosen for her first foal? I Am Invincible, Australia's most expensive sire at a covering fee of AUD 247,500.
    Billionaires will bid big money for the foal/yearling, if only to be able to boast that they have the first foal from Winx.
    If things pan out as they almost always do the foal will be moderate to useless.
    Years ago the wealthy who could afford horses had their own breeding studs and pedigree advisers.

    I do go on a bit. :o


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Horses may or may not be faster, impossible to say.
    The aim is to win the race, nor to go fast.
    You will always get new records, but as mentioned above records arise from fast ground and favourable wind.
    One factor that makes it difficult to break records now is previously races were hand timed, and it could be 3/4 second before the hand timer knew the horses are moving.
    Now the electronic timer afaik starts when the button is pushed to operate the stalls. In other words, modern horses have to be 3/4 second better before they are on a par with earlier timings.
    St Jovite's Irish Derby "record" time is wrong by about one second. Will the authorities correct it? They would plough up The Curragh before they would correct it.

    In the USA timing is different again.
    Timing does not start when the starter presses the button.
    Timing starts when the horses have covered a distance and pass through a timing beam, which could be 50 yards after the start.

    More horses are bred now than decades ago, but imo the majority are poorly bred.
    Mares are bred to the sires whose foals and yearlings will make the most money at the sales.
    An example of this is the Australian wonder racemare Winx, winner of her last 33 races, now retired.
    What sire was chosen for her first foal? I Am Invincible, Australia's most expensive sire at a covering fee of AUD 247,500.
    Billionaires will bid big money for the foal/yearling, if only to be able to boast that they have the first foal from Winx.
    If things pan out as they almost always do the foal will be moderate to useless.
    Years ago the wealthy who could afford horses had their own breeding studs and pedigree advisers.

    I do go on a bit. :o

    There are a number of factors that blur the answer to the simple question of are horses getting faster.

    Trainers have access to better everything nowadays in comparison to a few decades ago. More all weather gallops mean that horses aren't missing vital exercise, better understanding of nutrition means better foodstuffs for building up a horse to their maximum potential. Better legal and illegal drug treatments should be boosting the athletic ability of horses, as should the much better scanning technology available to analyse the physique of the horses.

    Foals are now genetically tested to see what distance they will be most suited too.

    Everything is in place now to allow horses to perform substantially better than they did years ago. The huge expansion in the amount of horses in training and in racing internationally may have dropped the average ability level of horses. It has certainly made the big races less competitive and less important.

    I have to say though that there seems to be fewer OR 130 horses about nowadays than previously.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,034 Mod ✭✭✭✭The Mig


    Enable staying in training for a 2020 campaign


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Andrew00


    Fantastic news hope she wins a 3rd Arc


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    Really milking it now


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Enough already.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭Mgoraf


    Almost sounds like you don't want to see the best mare ever race again..


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Mgoraf wrote: »
    Almost sounds like you don't want to see the best mare ever race again..
    It sounds like you use "ever" for the last five years.
    • Kincsem (f) won 54 races from 54.
    • Pretty Polly (f) won 22, was 2nd twice from 24 races, incl the 1000 Guineas, Oaks, St Leger.
    • Formosa (f) won three English classics and dead-heated in another.
    • Sceptre (f) won four English classics.
    Anyway, back to the 2020 Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe.
    No horse has won the Arc as a 6yo. Motrico won the Arc as a 7yo.
    Enable in the last two Arcs had trouble getting home, and it is unlikely that part of her game will improve in 2020.
    I think the expression "no use flogging a dead horse" might apply.
    She has done enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    The Mig wrote: »
    Enable staying in training for a 2020 campaign

    Absolutely crazy stuff! Couldn't win The Arc this year when the 3 year-olds were awful, has no chance next year. Surprised at Gosden/Abdullah.

    The most interesting thing about this years Arc for me was the fact that NOBODY on ITV could even bring themselves to mention the possibility that Frankie went too soon on Enable. The company line (repeated ad infinitum) was that "She was outstayed by a stronger stayer on the ground". Looks like some icons are untouchable!


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